Who's Side Are You On? UAW Strike 07.

[LS7]

GM4Life. I don't know where you get the idea that Toyota workers get thousands of dollars less a year than GM. Here in Canada, Toyota and Honda pretty well match wage per wage with GM, Ford and Chrysler. In fact they probably end up with more money at the end of the year because they do not pay union dues.

Every year on labor day the Toronto Star usually runs an editorial on pro's and con's of unions. It took one union member to write the pro column and two non union members to write the con column.

I'm a union member and there have been times I have been pissed off with the union because they seem to protect the unproductive fat ass's, but if there were no unions, everybody would be working at minimum wage and be hired trough a temp agency. Don't think once that big Corporate America has nice big fuzzy wuzzy feelings for their employees. The share holders only have one thing in their mind and that's money and BIG growth.

It was the American auto industry with paying their employees a good wage that brought up the wages at the part suppliers. When the off shore parts suppliers started manufacturing over here they started using the Temp system, and so how can an established manufacturer compete when these temps can be working for more than a year at a very low wage?

You pay workers a low wage and they are not going to stay with these jobs, especially if they are working together with the full time employees.

[makfu]

I am very pleased that a deal was struck and that I was wrong.

-Mak

08 FE3 CTS with 6 on the floor on order

The UAW didn't have to go with the nuclear option. Hopefully this is just a political ploy by Gettelfinger to help sell the membership.

That said, I don't think this will be over quickly. I think GM, along with all the analysts, was caught badly off-guard, believing that Gettelfinger understood just how precarious the situation really is. I believe GM went back to the table to try and keep talks going, but I don't think they will reach a settlement quickly just because the Union didn't declare an impasse.

I have generally been pretty neutral regarding the UAW and Unions, recognizing their value in protecting members from employer exploitation. That said, Unions in recent times have proven largely ineffective and, in more than a few cases, badly corrupt. Yes, years of GM mismanagement has played a part in this situation, but there is no escaping the fact that neither the UAW nor GM can survive more than a very short strike.

The UAW and its members would be foolish to think GM will blink, because just as the UAW is in no position to ask for anything, GM is in no position to grant anything. Econ 101, if a company cannot make money and it is more financially viable to terminate a company’s operations, then you close the doors and go home. With years of losses, only 19 billion in market capitalization and 200 billion in assets, how long before a raider / private equity firm walks in and parts the company out, once it collapses financially due to an extended strike? What will the Union do then?

I think we are witnessing the final violent death throes of the American auto industry and the end of any meaningful organized labor in North American manufacturing. Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai and Nissan don't pay UAW wages and benefits and they certainly don't guarantee employment and product investment. GM, Ford and Chrysler are nearing the end of the road. If you want to get an idea of where that road ends, take a look at the history of the British domestic auto industry.

-Mak

08 FE3 CTS with 6 on the floor on order (soon to be a BMW if the UAW doesn't get back to work).

[PurdueGuy]

if there were no unions, everybody would be working at minimum wage and be hired trough a temp agency.

that's the biggest load of crap, and you know it. Workers in more unskilled positions might get paid notably less, but you can't sit there & say "you don't know how hard it is", then turn around & say "they'd pay people minimum wage to do the job." Welcome to the american market, where people can choose their job, and if a job is hard with crappy pay, they won't choose it.

and yes, I've worked in a factory.

[Intrepidation]

WHAT DOES YOUR WIFE DO? IF YOU NEVER WORKED FOR A FACTORY LIKE GM HOW DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD WE WORK?

THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY! YOU PEOPLE GET ON HERE THINKING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE UAW PEOPLE AND GM.

YOU KNOW NOTHING! GENERAL MOTORS WOULD EAT YOU PEOPLE ALIVE. I LOVE MY JOB GM/UAW I OWN ONLY GM TRUCKS AND CARS. BUT WHEN YOUR COMPANY HAD 250,000 PEOPLE IN THE 80'S AND NOW 73,000 PEOPLE SOMETHING IS WRONG

YOU PEOPLE THAT SAY GM/UAW PEOPLE ARE NOT SMART MUST OF US HAVE COLLEGE DEGREE,S GO FIGURE

GET A GRIP DON'T HATE US FOR MAKING A CHOICE TO WORK FOR GENERAL MOTORS THEY WERE HIRING PEOPLE A COUPLE YEARS AGO YOU HAD TO TAKE A TEST AND PASS IT WHICH A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T PASS WHO SMARTER NOW.

I WANT TO KNOW WHO MAKES 70,000 A YEAR WHAT YOU PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS WE UAW PEOPLE

DONT MAKE 70,000 AND WE DO PAY FOR SOME OF OUR BENIFITS. AS FOR THE WORK IF YOU THINK ITS NOT HARD THINK AGAIN. WE DONT WHAT MORE MONEY AND WE DONT WANT OUR BENIFITS FREE

WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE SOME TYPE OF HEALTH CARE WE DO NOT GET EVERYTHING FREE. MYSELF (UAW WORKER) GO TO THE SAME DENIST AS A GENERAL MOTORS NON UAW PERSON AND THEY CAN GET SO MUCH MORE DONE AND NOT PAY 1 CENT FOR IT BUT IF I GET THE SAME STUFF DONE ITS NOT COVERED. WHAT STOPPED ANYONE OF YOU PEOPLE FROM GETTING A JOB WITH GENERAL MOTORS YOU PEOPLE COULD NOT PASS THE TEST YOU HAD TO TAKE. DONT HATE US BECAUSE WE MADE A GOOD CHOICE FOR OUR FURTURE. MOST OF US HAVE COLLEGE DEGREE'S MAYBE YOU SHOULD MAKE DIFFERENT CHOICES IN YOUR LIFE BEFORE YOU GO SLAMMING ANYONE ELSE. GET A LIFE STOP CRYING ABOUT STUFF YOU HAVE KNOW CLUE ABOUT. RETIREES HAVE WORKED ALL THERE LIVES FOR GM THEY EARNED THERE PAY CHECK WHEN YOU PEOPLE WORK 10 TO 12 A DAY AND DO THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT MEANS LIFTING 50, 60 POUND EVERY 1MIN. A HOUR DONT TELL US WE DONT WORK HARD I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE COME IN THINKING ITS SO EASY AND THEY DONT EVEN MAKE IT A WHOLE DAY.

You know typing in all caps does not an intelligent arguement make

[makfu]

You know typing in all caps does not an intelligent arguement make

Yeah, seriously, it really helps an argument if it is at least readable. And while we are on the subject, I wish that certain people would at least make a rudimentary attempt at proper punctuation and spelling. A "..." is not a substitute for a comma, semicolon or period. Punctuation, spelling and grammar are not about elitist sensibilities, they are about helping the reader process what you have written. I am not asking for people to be perfect, but it would just be nice if some would at least give it a try.

Here is a good hint: every post I write first in Word (or, if you prefer OO Writer). By doing such I can catch the most egregious spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors. I don't do this to appear smarter; I do it so that people can read my comments more easily.

-Mak

08 FE3 CTS with 6 on the floor on order

[Intrepidation]

Yeah, seriously, it really helps an argument if it is at least readable. And while we are on the subject, I wish that certain people would at least make a rudimentary attempt at proper punctuation and spelling. A "..." is not a substitute for a comma, semicolon or period. Punctuation, spelling and grammar are not about elitist sensibilities, they are about helping the reader process what you have written. I am not asking for people to be perfect, but it would just be nice if some would at least give it a try.

Here is a good hint: every post I write first in Word (or, if you prefer OO Writer). By doing such I can catch the most egregious spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors. I don't do this to appear smarter; I do it so that people can read my comments more easily.

-Mak

08 FE3 CTS with 6 on the floor on order

Type it in Word first? thats just being too anal retentive dude

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with "..." because it symbolizes a longer pause in the thought than a comma would

I can't make periods because that key doesn't work on this crappy G5 I'm using

Edited September 26, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Drew Dowdell]

Yeah, seriously, it really helps an argument if it is at least readable. And while we are on the subject, I wish that certain people would at least make a rudimentary attempt at proper punctuation and spelling. A "..." is not a substitute for a comma, semicolon or period. Punctuation, spelling and grammar are not about elitist sensibilities, they are about helping the reader process what you have written. I am not asking for people to be perfect, but it would just be nice if some would at least give it a try.

Here is a good hint: every post I write first in Word (or, if you prefer OO Writer). By doing such I can catch the most egregious spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors. I don't do this to appear smarter; I do it so that people can read my comments more easily.

-Mak

08 FE3 CTS with 6 on the floor on order

or you could just use Firefox which has a built in spell checker for comments.

[Intrepidation]

or you could just use Firefox which has a built in spell checker for comments.

On a related note, have you noticed how utterly retarded FireFox's spell checker can be?

[makfu]

or you could just use Firefox which has a built in spell checker for comments.

Which clearly didn't flag your lack of proper capitalization.

-Mak

08 FE3 CTS with 6 on the floor on order

[Fletch Radford]

If the jobs suck so bad, why don't they just find a new job, and let workers in China deal with it?

Because in many cases that is all that is out there, and you take what you can get to make a half way decent living esp. if you live in the state of Michigan and you don't really have the money to move to another state for better employment, plus if you ship all of the jobs out to China what are all of the plant supervisors, manager's, accountants, advisor's, engineers, foremen and other anti-UAW crybabies in these forums going to do for employment if all of the factories in the U.S. are closed as you suggest, wiseass.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Fletch Radford

[MRDETROITMETAL]

Bunch of f up idiots...GM sells more cars & they pull this $h! ?...STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.

how many more toyotas do you want to sell ????...dumb ass move IMO.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Because in many cases that is all that is out there, and you take what you can get to make a half way decent living esp. if you live in the state of Michigan and you don't really have the money to move to another state for better employment, plus if you ship all of the jobs out to China what are all of the plant supervisors, manager's, accountants, advisor's, engineers, foremen and other anti-UAW crybabies in these forums going to do for employment if all of the factories in the U.S. are closed as you suggest, wiseass.

I don't think manufacturing jobs leaving would affect me too much. If it allowed GM to build better cars as a result, that would affect me though. It would also affect all the people selling GM cars, because they could sell more of them.

If there's nothing else around, then be happy with what you have.

Computers, electronics, and robots have replaced a lot of workers. Yet somehow, unemployment seems likes it is at a pretty good level. How is that possible?

[ellives]

Because in many cases that is all that is out there, and you take what you can get to make a half way decent living esp. if you live in the state of Michigan and you don't really have the money to move to another state for better employment, plus if you ship all of the jobs out to China what are all of the plant supervisors, manager's, accountants, advisor's, engineers, foremen and other anti-UAW crybabies in these forums going to do for employment if all of the factories in the U.S. are closed as you suggest, wiseass.

Seems like we're going to find out. This deal will continue to be bad news for GM. As I've said before, GM will continue to die the "death of 1000 cuts" because they didn't bust the UAW. This is only way they're going to get the level of competitive advantage they need to slow down the Toyota machine. Let's hope I'm wrong and they can figure out a way to build and sell cars on merits that exceed those of Toyota vehicles. If not, GM might as well just shut down and sell off their assets and just hand over the proceeds to the UAW. If I owned the UAW, it's what I'd do. I'm not going to operate a company for a loss - ever.

[capriceman]

If the jobs suck so bad, why don't they just find a new job, and let workers in China deal with it?

Because They have bills to pay and family's to feed. We are all not born with silver spoon in hand.

And most factory's are in urban Environments where jobs are at a premium and incomes low.

You have to realize unions where put into place when people where killed on the lines regularly and pay was dismal at best. Most Factory workers have sub par education because of there up bringing. Most of these people grew up with only eating dinner 3 times a week. College loans were rarely approved so its not like they could help it.

Get out of your narcissistic world for a couple of minutes and think of the people the union was designed for.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Because They have bills to pay and family's to feed. We are all not born with silver spoon in hand.

And most factory's are in urban Environments where jobs are at a premium and incomes low.

You have to realize unions where put into place when people where killed on the lines regularly and pay was dismal at best. Most Factory workers have sub par education because of there up bringing. Most of these people grew up with only eating dinner 3 times a week. College loans were rarely approved so its not like they could help it.

Get out of your narcissistic world for a couple of minutes and think of the people the union was designed for.

Well you are just proving what I think. GM is offering jobs, at a premium pay compared to everything else offered in the area, but GM still doesn't give enough? By your example, GM took these people from eating 3 times a week, to making $60k+ per year with no education. Yet they are still bullying GM into giving more and more.

Unions were put in place many, many years ago. Before there were federal laws protecting workers. Well guess what, there are now federal laws protecting workers. So why is the Union still needed?

The only purpose they serve today, is to make the host company uncompetitive, therefore running the only high paying jobs in that area into the ground.

Last time I checked, GM was a company in business to make money, not a welfare office that should be giving handouts to people who don't take the initiative to better themselves.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Oh wait, nevermind. They do take the initiative to better themselves, at GM's expense.

[Fletch Radford]

I don't think manufacturing jobs leaving would affect me too much. If it allowed GM to build better cars as a result, that would affect me though. It would also affect all the people selling GM cars, because they could sell more of them.

If there's nothing else around, then be happy with what you have.

Computers, electronics, and robots have replaced a lot of workers. Yet somehow, unemployment seems likes it is at a pretty good level. How is that possible?

You know it is really easy to talk like you do living in Arizona where the states economy is not based on the ups and downs of the auto industry, but here in Michigan things are ALOT different, and yes GM is selling more cars but who in the hell do you think is busting ass to build them, (and no not all of them are Mexican, Japaneese, Chineese, Korean, or Canadian autoworkers), and let see how you would like it if after working 15 or 20 years at your job your boss comes up to you and says that you need to take a pay cut and loose your health benefits what kind of mood you will be in.

[CaddyXLR-V]

You know it is really easy to talk like you do living in Arizona where the states economy is not based on the ups and downs of the auto industry, but here in Michigan things are ALOT different, and yes GM is selling more cars but who in the hell do you think is busting ass to build them, (and no not all of them are Mexican, Japaneese, Chineese, Korean, or Canadian autoworkers), and let see how you would like it if after working 15 or 20 years at your job your boss comes up to you and says that you need to take a pay cut and loose your health benefits what kind of mood you will be in.

Well considering I don't have an inflated pay/pension based on market conditions that are making my employer uncompetitive, I doubt that.

[Fletch Radford]

Well considering I don't have an inflated pay/pension based on market conditions that are making my employer uncompetitive, I doubt that.

You really do believe everything you read in the the media don't you, I am (obviously) a member of the UAW, I am a employee of Delphi Saginaw Steering Systems Plant 6, now I don't sit and work on a line I work in the machining dept. fabricating parts for the steering columns, plus I also run two furnaces for heat treating of these parts, yet I make less than $15.00 an hour, but my job requires that I have the combined skills of a machine operator, a millwright, a electrician, a pipefitter, a hydraulic and pneumatic tech, a computer repair specialist (IT), a quality inspector, and a pyro tech, I see at least 6 college degrees or certifications in what I do on a daily basis (40 hours a week minimum), but yet according to you I have an "inflated pay/pension based on market conditions that are making my employer uncompetitive", If you question at all what I do for a living (or what I have just said) you are more than welcome to come to where I work and spend the day with me (I can make arrangements) to see for yourself what I have told you is true.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Fletch Radford

[ellives]

You really do believe everything you read in the the media don't you, I am (obviously) a member of the UAW, I am a employee of Delphi Saginaw Steering Systems Plant 6, now I don't sit and work on a line I work in the machining dept. fabricating parts for the steering columns, plus I also run two furnaces for heat treating of these parts, yet I make less than $15.00 an hour, but my job requires that I have the combined skills of a machine operator, a millwright, a electrician, a pipefitter, a hydraulic and pneumatic tech, a computer repair specialist (IT), a quality inspector, and a pyro tech, I see at least 6 college degrees or certifications in what I do on a daily basis (40 hours a week minimum), but yet according to you I have an "inflated pay/pension based on market conditions that are making my employer uncompetitive", If you question at all what I do for a living (or what I have just said) you are more than welcome to come to where I work and spend the day with me (I can make arrangements) to see for yourself what I have told you is true.

Find another job. You're underpaid. Glad to see a UAW member defend the union here. One post isn't going to change many (any?) minds but a vacuum will always be filled with something eventually (a law of physics of course) so you're always better off to fill the vacuum with information.

[Fletch Radford]

Find another job. You're underpaid. Glad to see a UAW member defend the union here. One post isn't going to change many (any?) minds but a vacuum will always be filled with something eventually (a law of physics of course) so you're always better off to fill the vacuum with information.

Not much here in Michigan, Jennifer Granholm (our state governor) took care of that (our state government was supposed to shut down at midnight 10/1/07 because of lack of money), and as you can see I don't make enough to move elsewhere (plus the wife doesn't want to move, I tried) so I have to tough it out an make a stand right here.

[Robert Hall]

You know it is really easy to talk like you do living in Arizona where the states economy is not based on the ups and downs of the auto industry, but here in Michigan things are ALOT different, and yes GM is selling more cars but who in the hell do you think is busting ass to build them, (and no not all of them are Mexican, Japaneese, Chineese, Korean, or Canadian autoworkers), and let see how you would like it if after working 15 or 20 years at your job your boss comes up to you and says that you need to take a pay cut and loose your health benefits what kind of mood you will be in.

I got out of Michigan in '97 after grad school...I saw no future there, the economy was weak there then. I couldn't imagine spending 15-20 years at one place... in my industry (software) staying more than 3-5 years in one company is a rarity..people have to make career choices and drive their career forward for themselves and not expect a company, any company, to keep things on track.

Edited September 30, 2007 by moltar

[ellives]

You really do believe everything you read in the the media don't you, I am (obviously) a member of the UAW, I am a employee of Delphi Saginaw Steering Systems Plant 6, now I don't sit and work on a line I work in the machining dept. fabricating parts for the steering columns, plus I also run two furnaces for heat treating of these parts, yet I make less than $15.00 an hour, but my job requires that I have the combined skills of a machine operator, a millwright, a electrician, a pipefitter, a hydraulic and pneumatic tech, a computer repair specialist (IT), a quality inspector, and a pyro tech, I see at least 6 college degrees or certifications in what I do on a daily basis (40 hours a week minimum), but yet according to you I have an "inflated pay/pension based on market conditions that are making my employer uncompetitive", If you question at all what I do for a living (or what I have just said) you are more than welcome to come to where I work and spend the day with me (I can make arrangements) to see for yourself what I have told you is true.

After I posted my first reply to this comment it also dawned on me to make another comment given you referenced "6 college degress or certifications." This leads me to believe you have none of these, which is likely another part of your problem. If you're not willing to invest the time in these measures of knowledge, it's really tough to complain about lack of compensation. I'm presuming GM has some kind of education reimbursement program?