UAW sets strike deadline for Monday morning

[Newbiewar]

There’s a long history of companies resorting to gimmicks to resolve labor issues or just to get out of a sticky spot. Remember when General Motors decided that its parts workers were paid too much? Instead of dealing with the problem, GM spun off the parts business into Delphi, a separate company. It didn’t work. GM has given away many billions of dollars to those same workers. A gimmick.

Now we have negotiations between the auto industry and the United Auto Workers, punctuated (at press time, Sept. 24) by the beginning of a strike. The crucial issue has been the $5 billion a year that GM (nyse: GM - news - people ) spends on health care. The gimmick? Create a health care trust, funded by the auto companies but managed by the union, that would pay medical bills for workers once they hit retirement. It’s known as a voluntary employee beneficiary association. Whatever you call it, it’s just a way to hide, cover up and pass on the costs. Here’s what's wrong:

1. It doesn’t reduce any costs. The health care bill would remain the same, whether the UAW or GM is in charge. Don’t think GM would be out of the health care business. You can bet that somewhere there’s an escape clause, something that will allow the UAW to come back and ask for more money.

2. Money needed for new vehicles is still diverted into what wiseacres call the “GM Funeral Society.” Tens of billions into the trust fund handed to the union. Don’t kid yourself. GM doesn’t have enough money to really improve its products. Look at the new Chevy Malibu, on which so much GM hope is laid, and compare it to the new Honda (nyse: HMC - news - people ) Accord. The Accord is bigger, more powerful and more fuel-efficient. Honda has the money to spend on developing such a car.

3. Sooner or later the union won’t be able to cover medical costs. It could then cut the benefits or raise co-payments. But you can be sure that it will instead demand that General Motors chip in the money to “make whole” the medical care. Will GM give in? Well, look at Delphi.

4. There would be a huge fund to be invested (GM has $51 billion in unfunded retiree health costs). There will be billions in medical contracts to be given out. The folks making the decisions will be low-paid union folks. The folks wanting the contracts will be tempted to do what they can to get them. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see the risk of corruption on a grand scale.

5. GM talks about eliminating the medical liability from its balance sheet. What difference will that make if GM fails to make sexier cars? What difference will it make if GM turns itself around and becomes wildly profitable again? Making a success of GM is not an exercise in balance-sheet mathematics; it’s building better cars than the competition, and doing a better job of selling them.

A health care trust, if it happens, may look good today, but one day it will come back to haunt GM. Just like the Fiat (nyse: FIA - news - people ) deal. You remember that one: It was so clever of GM to extract itself from its obligations to Fiat that you overlooked the $2 billion price tag. That $2 billion was the money that launched the Fiat turnaround.

[ZL-1]

True fault does lie on the Unions. Unions were created in early 20th century, when democracy was still incomplete. With more educated people not in US but the entire world compared to that of 20th century, it is like a bad cyst on the balls of corporations making not only the corporations, but the country incompetent.

If GM, Ford and Chry sign for bankruptcy just like the airline industry, these UAW members should even forget about what the three are trying to give.

On one term I do agree with UAW, is that the managers should not get fat pays when the company is struggling, however so should the union leaders.

Democracy is still incomplete and always will be. As an example, you guys still don't elect a President by direct voting, which means that from time to time ou have a President elected with less than 50% of popular vote :AH-HA_wink:

I think unions are useful and sometimes needed to balance power. However, they have to understand that negotiation means creating trust/confidence, and it means proposing and reaching win-win situations. The us-versus-them mentality is of the 19th and 20th centuries and it should stay in History where it belongs.

Edited September 24, 2007 by ZL-1

[Newbiewar]

"We were disappointed to find out that this was going to be a one-way negotiation," said UAW president Ron Gettelfinger at a news conference after the strike began. "It was going to be GM's way at the expense of the workers. The company walked right up to the deadline like they really didn't care."

He said the parties were headed back to the bargaining table on Monday afternoon, but "with the frame of mind we're in right now, we expect the company would move rather expeditiously on the open issues that are in front of us."

[61Elkamino]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to. I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class. Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive. You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour? It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING. And they will ruthlessly stop at nothing to keep it that way! This is what the greatest struggle of the 20th century was about. And we actually thought we defeated Facism when it's really been there all along behind the scenes! All we have left in this country is a population that is addicted to consumerism and a "credit card" lifestyles; reduced to modern day serfdom. At least unions have enough about them to take a stand against this.

[Flybrian]

But does the UAW's actions here encourage GM to stay in America or look elsewhere?

[Newbiewar]

But does the UAW's actions here encourage GM to stay in America or look elsewhere?

go elsewhere... i'm about to write something... regaurding fault, and globilization of the big 3 with regaurds to unions... stay tuned lol

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

actually from an economic point of view, this entire system of globalism will parallel from the industrial revolution until the 50s or 60s.

but first the rest of the world has to become "unionized" in a sense until such a time where no country has any advantages or disadvantages (or relatively minute ones) when it comes to workforces.

Its not completely unfeasible that in the next 500 years what i just said would become true. Globalism will revive the rich vs poor world for a goodly amount of time, but the end result, if history is any indicator, is the rise of a vastly larger middle class (but in the very far off future).

and ElKamino, everything of what you said is nothing new in America, it has been around since the teens and twenties (credit debt) and probably even before that.

[Clownzilla]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to. I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class. Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive. You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour? It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING. And they will ruthlessly stop at nothing to keep it that way! This is what the greatest struggle of the 20th century was about. And we actually thought we defeated Facism when it's really been there all along behind the scenes! All we have left in this country is a population that is addicted to consumerism and a "credit card" lifestyles; reduced to modern day serfdom. At least unions have enough about them to take a stand against this.

That's not fascism, that's capitalism. In capitalism, ANYONE has the chance to join the "rich fat cats". Work hard and you will achieve. If workers don't like the destruction of the middle class, they have every opportunity to rise above it. I don't think most people understand the vast amount of opportunities we have as American citizens unless they lived in a government like North Korea (now THAT'S fascism). Fascism won't even allow you to work your way up the social and corporate ladder.

[Drew Dowdell]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to. I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class. Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive. You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour? It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING. And they will ruthlessly stop at nothing to keep it that way! This is what the greatest struggle of the 20th century was about. And we actually thought we defeated Facism when it's really been there all along behind the scenes! All we have left in this country is a population that is addicted to consumerism and a "credit card" lifestyles; reduced to modern day serfdom. At least unions have enough about them to take a stand against this.

The unions think members should never have to pay for healthcare even though the rest of the country has moved on.

The unions think members should never have to pay towards retirement though the rest of the country has moved on.

Well they'll pay alright, they'll pay with their jobs.

The unions think that their members should be guaranteed a job for life though the country has moved on.

The only thing the unions are guaranteeing is more jobs shipped overseas.

[Z-06]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to. I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class. Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive. You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour? It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING. And they will ruthlessly stop at nothing to keep it that way! This is what the greatest struggle of the 20th century was about. And we actually thought we defeated Facism when it's really been there all along behind the scenes! All we have left in this country is a population that is addicted to consumerism and a "credit card" lifestyles; reduced to modern day serfdom. At least unions have enough about them to take a stand against this.

If American middle class is dismantled or reduced to poverty, Internationalists and Corporations will be shooting themselves in the foot, because it is precisely the American middle class which holds the volume and profitability. If you care so much for the Middle Class, charity beigns at home, don't go to Walmart, buy from the local mom and pop store stuff that will be 20% more expensive than the M.I.C. in Walmart. Tell the middle class people to buy your own country cars (if you milk the company that gives you job, don't you think advertising for them will save their marketing $), and tell the middle class people to form their own unions in the foreign car manufacturers building plants on US soil. In fact it is the middle class screwing the middle class and nothing more.

Tell the lawmakers to stop giving concessions to the foreign car companies in terms of taxes, so that those taxes can benefit local people.

Don't be a moral crusader to push your own self interest point, be wholistic. What US corporations are doing trying to be competitive to agree and please your own (middle class) greed of cheaper products, regardless of nationality, and utter short sightedness and make you survive with job at the same time. Something is better than nothing. If GM goes bankrupt Union will have nothing. Oops you shrunk your own middle class.

And hey, I belong to the middle class.

Edited September 24, 2007 by smallchevy

[Mr Plow 2500HD]

Im sick of the bs from the unions, yeah you did some good 70 years ago, then sat on you fat asses. I deal with 4 diff locals all day, work 5hrs get paid 8, id say there girls but my wife works harder. Let the union provide heath and retirement from the dues .The time has passed for unions in america. BREAK THEM GM! They are trying to break YOU

[ellives]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to. I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class. Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive. You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour? It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING. And they will ruthlessly stop at nothing to keep it that way! This is what the greatest struggle of the 20th century was about. And we actually thought we defeated Facism when it's really been there all along behind the scenes! All we have left in this country is a population that is addicted to consumerism and a "credit card" lifestyles; reduced to modern day serfdom. At least unions have enough about them to take a stand against this.

Corporations exist to make money. They don't exist to provide a living to anyone. This is a simple fact you liberals can't seem to understand.

[CARBIZ]

Education is the key to everything. India and China are pumping out more engineers and more computer programmers in a month than we do in a year. Fast forward that twenty years.

This is not the 1950s. Quitting school in grade 8 (like my father did) and driving a bulldozer for the astronomical (then) sum of $5 an hour is not the way of the future. SKILLED trades people will always be paid well. Just ask my sister: she makes $80k a year as electrical site inspector, but she worked her ASS off apprenticing and going to school (learining municipal codes and other uncomprehensible stuff) to get to where she is today.

I am not saying watching engines drop into an engine bay all day is not mind numbingly boring, and that the jobs should be rotated to alleviate stress and said boredom; however, the days of starting a job turning a wrench at $25 an hour on the FIRST DAY are over.

I agree (to a degree) that someone who has worked at GM for 10+ years should have some type of protection and benefit, but covering new workers and forcing GM to treat them the same way does not only defy logic, it is business suicide.

Paying all workers the same amount, regardless of ability or education has a name, my friends: COMMUNISM.

[Newbiewar]

GM's labor cost for its U.S. workers, including wages and benefits, is $73.26 an hour, while Toyota Motor Corp.'s is about $48 per hour, according to an estimate from the U.S. automakers. The UAW says labor is only about 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle.

[thegriffon]

Democracy is still incomplete and always will be. As an example, you guys still don't elect a President by direct voting, which means that from time to time ou have a President elected with less than 50% of popular vote :AH-HA_wink:

Umm, the same thing happens with almost every government. You win the most districts, you win government. It's no different in France, Germany, Britain Australia etc., even though they may lampoon the US system. The main difference is in most countries the entire cabinet, not just the President is chosen by the disctrict representatives, and what's more, not from a wider pool of skilled (if politically selected) candidates, but from amongst themselves, no matter how limited in experience that group may be in say, law, finance, defence, intelligence, health, transport etc.

[thegriffon]

america could ratify something along those lines to help the community and encourage all vehicles sold in america be produced with the same benifits...

Wouldn't work. New automakers would still not have the cost burden Ford GM and Chrysler have with their legions of retirees. You would have to slap a sales tax on every item you could buy in the USA, to fund mandatory pension contributions to cover every current and retired worker in the US, regardless of place of manufacture, industry, or how long the company has been in business. THAT is what the UAW and other established unions need to be picketing for, especially in a coming election year. They should be asking Obama and Clinton and every other candidate to publicly campaign for that and get firm congressional and senate support in return for union support in funding, voter registation etc.. That is the only way company, industry and social security pensions will ever be adequately financed ever again. Chance of that actually happening in the next century? Zero zip, nada.

[bowtie_dude]

Democracy is a misnomer for most modern electing governments. Democratic Republic is the correct term for the electoral governments most governments have. Democracy is majority rules, which can lead of mob rule. Democratic Republics prevent this by giving smaller population states equal voting power.

[ZL-1]

Umm, the same thing happens with almost every government. You win the most districts, you win government. It's no different in France, Germany, Britain Australia etc., even though they may lampoon the US system. The main difference is in most countries the entire cabinet, not just the President is chosen by the disctrict representatives, and what's more, not from a wider pool of skilled (if politically selected) candidates, but from amongst themselves, no matter how limited in experience that group may be in say, law, finance, defence, intelligence, health, transport etc.

My US example wasn't meant to attack the US system. I think the US is the country where there's more separation between Legislative and Executive branches of Government. It was meant to say that even in the US, with its tradition of separation of branches of Government, there's still room for improvement, and that Democracy is not a finished process.

But the UAW can hold out much longer if it has to. Though smaller and weaker than it used to be, the union still has close to $1 billion in its strike fund--a hoard that could last up to a year, analysts say.

If they plan to be on strike for a whole year there won't be a GM for those workers to return to. Edited September 25, 2007 by ZL-1

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to.

I hate the 'internationalists'. You must be new to the board.

I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class.

I agree, and I think it sucks bad. I was once middle class and I've watched my family fall to where it is now. But the fact of the matter is, these are the cards we've (the middle class) been dealt by those in charge (the upper class) As terrible as that sounds, we have no choice but to make the best of it. If the union doesn't give GM concessions, then the union will die one way or another.

Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive.

It's not the corporations fault... They're just trying to do business. It's actually the governments' fault for allowing us to be screwed over by the global economy.

You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour?

Absolutley not... But the american people have spoken. Spoken by electing people who welcome the downfall of our society to elevate other societies... Spoken by demanding that goods be cheaper (even by pennies on the dollar) instead of caring that their neighbor has a job.

It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING. And they will ruthlessly stop at nothing to keep it that way!

The rich have always controlled everything anyway... Just look, for example, at when the auto industry started. Henry Ford even controlled the leisure time of his workers Nothing has changed! It's just that, by allowing a global economy, it has sealed the control by the rich because now, it's bigger than us (america) and it doesn't matter what we try to do to stop it. We do not govern outside of our borders.

All we have left in this country is a population that is addicted to consumerism and a "credit card" lifestyles; reduced to modern day serfdom.

I agree 100%

At least unions have enough about them to take a stand against this.

1) The unions are just as corrupt and rich as everyone else & 2) It doesn't matter if they take a stand... they can strike and kill GM, thus killing themselves OR they can agree to downsize, thus killing themselves. The straw has been thrown on the camels back.

Edited September 25, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

In capitalism, ANYONE has the chance to join the "rich fat cats". Work hard and you will achieve.

Especially in THIS KIND of capitalism...

That exact line was CONSTRUCTED during the industrial revolution to convince the working class that they could succeed. But the underlying point of it was to increase production and make the rich more $$$.

If workers don't like the destruction of the middle class, they have every opportunity to rise above it.

Not in this society... Acccording to sociologists, the only way to elevate class in this country is through education. Most people, especially mortgage-paying former middle class, don't have the money to go back to school. I'm a 25 year old poverty level student and I barely get enough from the government to go, I can't imagine financial aid even touching their expense to go back.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If American middle class is dismantled or reduced to poverty, Internationalists and Corporations will be shooting themselves in the foot, because it is precisely the American middle class which holds the volume and profitability.

Also wrong... Refer to the article posted in the lounge about a week ago that discusses the continual slide of the middle class into large sums of debt. The marekt is beginning to dry up. As a result, the article talks about how the corporations are increasing their exposure to the upper class and that as long as that class keeps spending, they will carry the economy.

If you care so much for the Middle Class, charity beigns at home, don't go to Walmart, buy from the local mom and pop store stuff that will be 20% more expensive than the M.I.C. in Walmart. Tell the middle class people to buy your own country cars (if you milk the company that gives you job, don't you think advertising for them will save their marketing $), and tell the middle class people to form their own unions in the foreign car manufacturers building plants on US soil. In fact it is the middle class screwing the middle class and nothing more.

While I do agree with the buy local/buy american sentiment, it's hard to do that when the middle class is being forced to take major pay cuts. Most people I know who bought Kias buy them because they're cheap and nothing else. Some people, including me want to buy the more expensive american made stuff. But sometimes that's just not possible. Outsourcing has screwed over middle america more than anything. And the reason the companies outsourced in the first place was to increase the profit margin... Business 101.

Edited September 25, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[aaaantoine]

If this leads to GM's downfall, I hope that at least Ford and Chrysler thrive from the collapse of the UAW.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Also wrong... Refer to the article posted in the lounge about a week ago that discusses the continual slide of the middle class into large sums of debt. The marekt is beginning to dry up. As a result, the article talks about how the corporations are increasing their exposure to the upper class and that as long as that class keeps spending, they will carry the economy.

While I do agree with the buy local/buy american sentiment, it's hard to do that when the middle class is being forced to take major pay cuts. Most people I know who bought Kias buy them because they're cheap and nothing else. Some people, including me want to buy the more expensive american made stuff. But sometimes that's just not possible. Outsourcing has screwed over middle america more than anything. And the reason the companies outsourced in the first place was to increase the profit margin... Business 101.

The middle class is in trouble because they keep spending, and putting themselves in debt. Who's fault is that? Do they need 2500-3000 sq/ft houses, and 2 new cars every 3 years? I do the same thing, and I have no one to blame but myself.

[lanky9172]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to. I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class. Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive. You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour? It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING. And they will ruthlessly stop at nothing to keep it that way! This is what the greatest struggle of the 20th century was about. And we actually thought we defeated Facism when it's really been there all along behind the scenes! All we have left in this country is a population that is addicted to consumerism and a "credit card" lifestyles; reduced to modern day serfdom. At least unions have enough about them to take a stand against this.

nice, and here I thought this was an automotive board, not a socialist propaganda board. Dude, hate to break it to ya, but this is inevitable and considering the human condition, things have been and probably always will be the way that you outline in "consumerism" and your definition of "facism". Idealism died with the '60s. Get real because no one in this world wants to pay, OVER PAY, those on the line. It makes me sick that I went to college and worked my butt off to become something better and I will probably never make, until I'm old and moldy, the kind of money along with benefits that these folks have. Sorry, but your argument died before it even left your lips. The unions have been part of the reason that R/D has been so low in the states which has left our product inferior to everyone else. Pick up the slack because I'm tired of shipping our stuff overseas to cover the cost of making a decent product since R/D abroad is so much lower.

[Shantanu]

Temp workers?

Anyone know if it would be possible for GM to get temp. workers to do these jobs if the strike starts dragging on for more than a week? Assuming they can keep the scabs from getting their brains bashed in by the UAW nutters, would it be feasible?

[thegriffon]

Also wrong... Refer to the article posted in the lounge about a week ago that discusses the continual slide of the middle class into large sums of debt. The marekt is beginning to dry up. As a result, the article talks about how the corporations are increasing their exposure to the upper class and that as long as that class keeps spending, they will carry the economy.

While I do agree with the buy local/buy american sentiment, it's hard to do that when the middle class is being forced to take major pay cuts. Most people I know who bought Kias buy them because they're cheap and nothing else. Some people, including me want to buy the more expensive american made stuff. But sometimes that's just not possible. Outsourcing has screwed over middle america more than anything. And the reason the companies outsourced in the first place was to increase the profit margin... Business 101.

When it comes to cars it is the Kia which is more expensive.

[thegriffon]

Also wrong... Refer to the article posted in the lounge about a week ago that discusses the continual slide of the middle class into large sums of debt. The marekt is beginning to dry up. As a result, the article talks about how the corporations are increasing their exposure to the upper class and that as long as that class keeps spending, they will carry the economy.

While I do agree with the buy local/buy american sentiment, it's hard to do that when the middle class is being forced to take major pay cuts. Most people I know who bought Kias buy them because they're cheap and nothing else. Some people, including me want to buy the more expensive american made stuff. But sometimes that's just not possible. Outsourcing has screwed over middle america more than anything. And the reason the companies outsourced in the first place was to increase the profit margin... Business 101.

The reasons companies outsource are the expectations of retailers (the gatekeepers to consumers) and the financial community (we have money for plants in China, not the US), and control by marketing types who think they are in the business of "selling", not "making". Plenty of companies have gotten into financial difficulty after outsourcing production. Once you factor in travel expanses, logistics and other costs, outsourcing or offshoring is not always successful in reducing costs. Truly "global" companies spread manufacturing and engineering centers all over the world, in order to optimize not only cost of manufacturing, but also logistics, economy of scale and local expertise. I can walk into my local supermarket and pick items of the shelf from one company that are made in Europe, Asia, Australia or the USA—sometimes a mix of two or more in one product (e.g. contents made locally [maximizing shelf-life and responsiveness] and packed in a decorative jar made in the USA). Imagine you are making clothing for the US market, and the really cold winter weather doesn't arrive for a couple of months later than normal (as has happened recently). A local supplier can delay or suspend production of winter coats at short notice, and restart when the cold weather really kicks in, but an overseas supplier may have the entire winter season already produced in on a ship crossing the Pacific when you realize you aren't going to able to sell them. GM can alter production of any model within days if the home building trade collapses, fuel prices spike, or there is an unexpected hit. An importer may do the same, but because it takes so long to ship product across the pacific the effect won't reach the local market until months later, when the it may be far too late.

[PurdueGuy]

Temp workers?

Anyone know if it would be possible for GM to get temp. workers to do these jobs if the strike starts dragging on for more than a week? Assuming they can keep the scabs from getting their brains bashed in by the UAW nutters, would it be feasible?

not really - temp workers can be a decent supplement to already skilled & trained workers, but to staff almost an entire factory with temps would be a nightmare. Very few people to do training, quality control would be out the window (it would probably become common knowledge of "don't buy a *fill in car* made between *date1* and *date2*), not enough temps available to fill a factory, etc. It just doesn't work well.

[thegriffon]

What a great bunch of Facists we have here! You've all bought the view that the Internationalists want you to. I've seen this in motion for over 25 years now. The dismantling of the American middle class. Yes, unions have had their faults, and one of them is not keeping up with the times and trying to remain a viable part of the economy. But the real brunt of this comes from the corporations, who want to reduce working people back to poverty and the struggle just to survive. You think it's "good busienss" to send our jobs oversea to places where the people work in sweatshops for pennies on the hour? It's all to create this "New World Order" where the rich control EVERYTHING.

You have no idea what fascism is, or about who owns and controls large corporations. The "rich" control very little. Who controls the way businesses operate? The managers of pension funds and mutual funds, the combined investments of millions of middle-class workers around the world, all demanding the best return possible so they can live comfortably in retirement. Even the mega-rich depend on appealing to these people to gain access to capital, There are a number of "ethical" investment funds, which only invest in companies adhering to certain guidelines, be they environmental or social, but the vast majority of middle-class investors seek prefer funds which simply look for companies and and loans offering the best return.

Fascism is a form of socialism, wherein private businesses are run under the supervision of the state for the benefit of the nation (if not always workers). North Korea is not fascist, but "communist" China has become so. A fascist would almost without exception be opposed to outsourcing to foreign producers or offshoring production. It is clear that you are far more fascist in your policies and ideals than the people you are trying to vilify. Don't forget that historically both the NAzi party and apartheid came out of trade unions. The inherent racism and nationalism in much "anti-globalisation" rhetoric is not so very different, despite often being disguised as protecting the "rights" of foreign workers (mostly the right to be unemployed and destitute).

[cmattson]

Damn. Way to go and bring facts in and snuff out a perfectly entertaining thread of heated rhetoric.

[thegriffon]

There’s a long history of companies resorting to gimmicks to resolve labor issues or just to get out of a sticky spot. Remember when General Motors decided that its parts workers were paid too much? Instead of dealing with the problem, GM spun off the parts business into Delphi, a separate company. It didn’t work. GM has given away many billions of dollars to those same workers. A gimmick.

Now we have negotiations between the auto industry and the United Auto Workers, punctuated (at press time, Sept. 24) by the beginning of a strike. The crucial issue has been the $5 billion a year that GM (nyse: GM - news - people ) spends on health care. The gimmick? Create a health care trust, funded by the auto companies but managed by the union, that would pay medical bills for workers once they hit retirement. It’s known as a voluntary employee beneficiary association. Whatever you call it, it’s just a way to hide, cover up and pass on the costs. Here’s what's wrong:

1. It doesn’t reduce any costs. The health care bill would remain the same, whether the UAW or GM is in charge. Don’t think GM would be out of the health care business. You can bet that somewhere there’s an escape clause, something that will allow the UAW to come back and ask for more money.

2. Money needed for new vehicles is still diverted into what wiseacres call the “GM Funeral Society.” Tens of billions into the trust fund handed to the union. Don’t kid yourself. GM doesn’t have enough money to really improve its products. Look at the new Chevy Malibu, on which so much GM hope is laid, and compare it to the new Honda (nyse: HMC - news - people ) Accord. The Accord is bigger, more powerful and more fuel-efficient. Honda has the money to spend on developing such a car.

3. Sooner or later the union won’t be able to cover medical costs. It could then cut the benefits or raise co-payments. But you can be sure that it will instead demand that General Motors chip in the money to “make whole” the medical care. Will GM give in? Well, look at Delphi.

4. There would be a huge fund to be invested (GM has $51 billion in unfunded retiree health costs). There will be billions in medical contracts to be given out. The folks making the decisions will be low-paid union folks. The folks wanting the contracts will be tempted to do what they can to get them. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to see the risk of corruption on a grand scale.

5. GM talks about eliminating the medical liability from its balance sheet. What difference will that make if GM fails to make sexier cars? What difference will it make if GM turns itself around and becomes wildly profitable again? Making a success of GM is not an exercise in balance-sheet mathematics; it’s building better cars than the competition, and doing a better job of selling them.

A health care trust, if it happens, may look good today, but one day it will come back to haunt GM. Just like the Fiat (nyse: FIA - news - people ) deal. You remember that one: It was so clever of GM to extract itself from its obligations to Fiat that you overlooked the $2 billion price tag. That $2 billion was the money that launched the Fiat turnaround.

You're confusing the entire pension benefits with the unfunded portion (subject to interpretation and forecast returns from GM's pension investments) and the unknown and impossible to quantify future healthcare obligations. GM has a large amount of money set aside for anticipated healthcare expenses, but it is the inflation of current healthcare expenses, esp. for inherently older retirees that is causing the most problems. The VEBA essentially transfers GM's healthcare benefits to a private, mutual benefits fund, controlled by the UAW. This fund will almost certainly take over the healthcare obligations of Ford, Chrysler and UAW represented workers at suppliers and in other industries, in exchange for up-front contributions to cover current and near-term retirees, and probably a per-week pay increase that will go towards the "voluntary" health insurance contributions. The latter will certainly increase over time, as will co-pays and limits on claims. The VEBA could be used by the UAW as an effective marketing tool if managed well. There is no reason why it could not be expanded to other industries not represented by the UAW, and provide a broader range of financial services—loans, life insurance, home and auto insurance—modelled by the USAA; or with it's primary focus as a healthcare provider, acquire or employ its own hospitals, clinics and other care providers in order to reduce costs and improve car.

[thegriffon]

There is one thing missing from free trade—free trade in labor markets, i.e. (subject to normal background and character checks), any Australian e.g. could hop on a plane and go to work in the US without the need for a green card and vice versa, with no limits of time or renewing visas, how long you can spend outside the US etc.

[hyperv6]

The middle class is in trouble because they keep spending, and putting themselves in debt. Who's fault is that? Do they need 2500-3000 sq/ft houses, and 2 new cars every 3 years? I do the same thing, and I have no one to blame but myself.

This is so true...

Todays middle class is going bankrupt trying to compete with the higher class.

I see to many people wanting to be on MTV Cribs with only 70K of income.

They have good jobs and make good livings but the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. While most of the developing countries are just happy to have 3 meals a day we worry about having that H2 or BMW in the drive and the big pool with a wather fall.

I work with a guy now that has had to dump the BMW, New Dodge truck and one of the Harleys because he was living way over his means with his house payment. You know the big house with empty rooms and not cutains because he can't afford to buy the furniture for them.

This was the second time he has gone belly up and ends up driving s used Ford till he finds another banks that will bank roll him again.

People of America may claim that big corps are greedy but the truth is most of all Americans are greedy from the top class to to bottom. No matter who they are they always want more than they have and they never have enough.

No matter how much we have or how well we are doing most of us want the next level. We in this country need to learn to live below our means and not above them.

We all ned to learn to be happy with what we have and not just want the next bigger thing. I include my self in this as I think almost all of us deal with this on some level.

The middle class to survive needs to learn to live at or below their means and learn to save money as it take money to make money. A good investment account will make more money for the future than a pay raise or a 5 year old BMW.

To many today will have nothing come retirement time and will be sacking goods at the local Piggly Wiggly into their 80's

The sad part is even if they gave the UAW a raise and other things they want most will not use it for the future and just blow it today. My Grandfather found out the URW did him little for his retirement and he blew most of what he made over the years.

We have gone too many generations with out sacrifice and we will pay the price because we are so uprepared for the future.

I know these things are true as I am part of the problem just as many of the rest here are.

Edited September 26, 2007 by hyperv6

[CaddyXLR-V]

This is so true...

Todays middle class is going bankrupt trying to compete with the higher class.

I see to many people wanting to be on MTV Cribs with only 70K of income.

They have good jobs and make good livings but the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. While most of the developing countries are just happy to have 3 meals a day we worry about having that H2 or BMW in the drive and the big pool with a wather fall.

I work with a guy now that has had to dump the BMW, New Dodge truck and one of the Harleys because he was living way over his means with his house payment. You know the big house with empty rooms and not cutains because he can't afford to buy the furniture for them.

This was the second time he has gone belly up and ends up driving s used Ford till he finds another banks that will bank roll him again.

People of America may claim that big corps are greedy but the truth is most of all Americans are greedy from the top class to to bottom. No matter who they are they always want more than they have and they never have enough.

No matter how much we have or how well we are doing most of us want the next level. We in this country need to learn to live below our means and not above them.

We all ned to learn to be happy with what we have and not just want the next bigger thing. I include my self in this as I think almost all of us deal with this on some level.

The middle class to survive needs to learn to live at or below their means and learn to save money as it take money to make money. A good investment account will make more money for the future than a pay raise or a 5 year old BMW.

To many today will have nothing come retirement time and will be sacking goods at the local Piggly Wiggly into their 80's

The sad part is even if they gave the UAW a raise and other things they want most will not use it for the future and just blow it today. My Grandfather found out the URW did him little for his retirement and he blew most of what he made over the years.

We have gone too many generations with out sacrifice and we will pay the price because we are so uprepared for the future.

I know these things are true as I am part of the problem just as many of the rest here are.

My thoughts exactly. The rich did not force the middle class into debt, they did that on their own, while trying to be like the rich. What most don't know, is that a lot of people who became rich, sacrificed a lot to become rich, driving a cheap paid off car for 10+ years, living in a small house etc. and putting all their money into investments. If your broke, it's probably because you keep blaming someone else(like the rich, or the company you work for).

The same applies to the UAW. Their numbers are decreasing, and they have less and less job security as time goes by. But as always, it's GM, Ford, or Chrysler's fault. The workers always want more, and they have extorted their host company for so long, that they came to expect more and more, which is probably why they feel entitled to more, while continually doing less. The only way to get more, is to create more value to the company you work for. If your worth more, you will get more, it's simple economics.

[ellives]

Did anybody else notice how quickly the "strike story" dropped off the front page of CNN? Supports my prior statement that "nobody cares."

[hyperv6]

My thoughts exactly. The rich did not force the middle class into debt, they did that on their own, while trying to be like the rich. What most don't know, is that a lot of people who became rich, sacrificed a lot to become rich, driving a cheap paid off car for 10+ years, living in a small house etc. and putting all their money into investments. If your broke, it's probably because you keep blaming someone else(like the rich, or the company you work for).

The same applies to the UAW. Their numbers are decreasing, and they have less and less job security as time goes by. But as always, it's GM, Ford, or Chrysler's fault. The workers always want more, and they have extorted their host company for so long, that they came to expect more and more, which is probably why they feel entitled to more, while continually doing less. The only way to get more, is to create more value to the company you work for. If your worth more, you will get more, it's simple economics.

The harsh truth is companies first priority id to make profit for share holders. No profit no money no share holders then no jobs.

It is like Bill Gates. He invented a better mouse trap and was smart in marketing it. more power to him. Everyone starts like the same way with a good smak on the a$$ and if you want something bad enough you will find a way to make it in life.

It is time to stop thinking the man is screwing you and putting the blame on others for all your grief. Just one look at the many that came from Asia after Viet Nam and how many of them have trived in this country should show many a better life is out their if you want to work for it.

The Eagles song "Get Over It" comes to mind everytime I hear someone claim they have not been given a fair shake in life.

Life is what you make of it and many are too greedy or lazy to ever be happy.

Just watch a episode of Cops and you will see why so many have problems. So much is self inflicted.

[pow]

Did anybody else notice how quickly the "strike story" dropped off the front page of CNN? Supports my prior statement that "nobody cares."

It's still headline news on NPR.org and MSNBC.com..

[ellives]

It's still headline news on NPR.org and MSNBC.com..

No surprise NPR is still there given it's a left organization. msnbc to a lesser extent. Interesting MSNBC is reporting being "close to an agreement" and spinning the results already.

[cletus8269]

People of America may claim that big corps are greedy but the truth is most of all Americans are greedy from the top class to to bottom. No matter who they are they always want more than they have and they never have enough.

No matter how much we have or how well we are doing most of us want the next level. We in this country need to learn to live below our means and not above them.

Amen brother, can i get a witness!?!

[ellives]

This is so true...

Todays middle class is going bankrupt trying to compete with the higher class.

I see to many people wanting to be on MTV Cribs with only 70K of income.

They have good jobs and make good livings but the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. While most of the developing countries are just happy to have 3 meals a day we worry about having that H2 or BMW in the drive and the big pool with a wather fall.

I work with a guy now that has had to dump the BMW, New Dodge truck and one of the Harleys because he was living way over his means with his house payment. You know the big house with empty rooms and not cutains because he can't afford to buy the furniture for them.

This was the second time he has gone belly up and ends up driving s used Ford till he finds another banks that will bank roll him again.

People of America may claim that big corps are greedy but the truth is most of all Americans are greedy from the top class to to bottom. No matter who they are they always want more than they have and they never have enough.

No matter how much we have or how well we are doing most of us want the next level. We in this country need to learn to live below our means and not above them.

We all ned to learn to be happy with what we have and not just want the next bigger thing. I include my self in this as I think almost all of us deal with this on some level.

The middle class to survive needs to learn to live at or below their means and learn to save money as it take money to make money. A good investment account will make more money for the future than a pay raise or a 5 year old BMW.

To many today will have nothing come retirement time and will be sacking goods at the local Piggly Wiggly into their 80's

The sad part is even if they gave the UAW a raise and other things they want most will not use it for the future and just blow it today. My Grandfather found out the URW did him little for his retirement and he blew most of what he made over the years.

We have gone too many generations with out sacrifice and we will pay the price because we are so uprepared for the future.

I know these things are true as I am part of the problem just as many of the rest here are.

To quote Gordon Gecko: "Greed is good." In fact, greed is what makes the capitalist system work. The problem comes in when greed surpasses morality and we start doing things on behalf of greed that we would not normally do. This, some would say, is one of the inherent flaws in the system... the devil is always there to tempt us.

[hyperv6]

To quote Gordon Gecko: "Greed is good." In fact, greed is what makes the capitalist system work. The problem comes in when greed surpasses morality and we start doing things on behalf of greed that we would not normally do. This, some would say, is one of the inherent flaws in the system... the devil is always there to tempt us.

A little greed can drive us but total greed will finish us.

IF we had to face the depression of the 20's and 30's today we would have a total mess on our hands today with the many who expect hte Goverment to bail them out of their every mess. Too many want and too few are willing to give of themselves for their on good.

The many Vets of WWII were willing to give their life to save Europe and today we have few that would give up a seat on a bus to a pregnet woman.

Too bad the coming together after 911 did not last more than a few months as we could use a little more of that.

Too many do not think the USA can fail but If the USSR can fall we can too. Don't think for a moment that there not people working hard to do just that too.

With both political partys being controls by special interest, far out groups like Moveon.org spreading their own vile Soros agenda and so many Americans who can't even name who their state congressman it is no wonder we are in such a mess.

I just know we have some hard times coming and it will either make us or break us.