TOYOTA - TOO MANY MODELS

[regfootball]

highlander

sequioia

4 runner

GX

LX

land cruiser

and GM has too many models? GM has too many SUV's?

seems like some serious market overlap to me i can't tell any of those vehicles apart

wasn't this supposed to be the downfall of GM?

Edited September 12, 2007 by regfootball

[cire]

It does seem like everyone wants to jump on the former "Big Three" about this issue and stay oblivious to the fact that Toyota has actually managed to do the same thing trying to nudge its way to number one. Somehow, Toyota has been able to dodge the bullets so far. Maybe after they obtain their goal of reaching (and maintaining) their number one status, the media and naysayers will try to expose some of their shortcomings. I understand that the company is fearful of a backlash; it seems that it goes with the territory of being number one. Someone will try to discredit your right to be there. I think it's unfortunate that it happens, but it will be nice to see the heat on Toyota for a change instead of one of the home team players.

Edited September 12, 2007 by cire

[Flybrian]

Think we have it bad?

This is the Vanguard, right now just for the Japanese market. Its 'slotted between the RAV4 and Highlander,' but its really a 7-seat RAV4. Talk about overlap.

[regfootball]

Think we have it bad?

This is the Vanguard, right now just for the Japanese market. Its 'slotted between the RAV4 and Highlander,' but its really a 7-seat RAV4. Talk about overlap.

i can't tell the difference!!!!!!!!!

[The O.C.]

highlander

sequioia

4 runner

GX

LX

land cruiser

and GM has too many models? GM has too many SUV's?

seems like some serious market overlap to me i can't tell any of those vehicles apart

wasn't this supposed to be the downfall of GM?

You walked right into this one......

Equinox

TrailBlazer

Tahoe

Suburban

Torrent

Envoy

Yukon

Suburban XL

Acadia

VUE

OUTLOOK

Enclave

Escalade

Escalade ESV

H2

H3

Toyota....six models split amongst two divisions....

GM....sixteen models split amongst seven division.....

[siegen]

Toyota does have a lot of SUV's. 6 to be exact (pretty good for the greenest automaker right?). At first glance they seem to overlap, but they each have their place... it's a question of whether or not covering every base is the best strategy, especially for an automaker trying to uphold its green image while maintaining a full lineup of SUV's.

The RAV4 is the smallest seating 5, comes with a transversely mounted 4cyl or 6cyl. The Highlander is mid-sized, seating 5-7, comes with a transversely mounted 6cyl. The 4 Runner also seats 5-7, but is differentiated from the Highlander in that it comes with a larger V6 or a V8, which are longitudinally mounted. It is marketed as an off-roading vehicle. The Sequoia is a full-size SUV, seats 8, comes with a V8. The FJ Cruiser is also marketed as an off-roader like the 4 Runner, but only seats 5 and only comes with a V6. The Land Cruiser is pointless in the Toyota lineup, since it's so expensive.

If anything, the 4Runner and FJ seem to overlap, cause Toyota doesn't really need both if you ask me.

In the Lexus lineup, they have 3. The GX and LX, IMO, could be combined into one model.

LX/Land Cruiser sales total around 300-400 per month, so they aren't exactly Toyota's hottest sellers.

[mustang84]

The Land Cruiser either needs to move up to Lexus, become the FJ Cruiser (call it Land Cruiser instead), or be killed. There is no market for a $50,000 Toyota-branded SUV, especially with the Sequoia here.

The rest of Toyota's SUVs all kind of have a place, just like GM and Ford have them spread out to cover all areas. I don't really understand the 4Runner though...it seems like another that could probably be axed. Give the Highlander a V8 option and kill the 4Runner.

[siegen]

The Land Cruiser either needs to move up to Lexus, become the FJ Cruiser (call it Land Cruiser instead), or be killed. There is no market for a $50,000 Toyota-branded SUV, especially with the Sequoia here.

The Land Cruiser and LX are pretty much the same vehicle, and they both sell at abysmal rates. They could be eliminated quite easily IMO.

[Snate]

Toyota actually has 9 SUV's for 3 divisions...probably half of them are just pointless overlaps.

[Drew Dowdell]

You walked right into this one......

Equinox

TrailBlazer

Tahoe

Suburban

Torrent

Envoy

Yukon

Suburban XL

Acadia

VUE

OUTLOOK

Enclave

Escalade

Escalade ESV

H2

H3

Toyota....six models split amongst two divisions....

GM....sixteen models split amongst seven division.....

Yeah because the Equinox, Enclave and Escalade all overlap with each other. A year ago you might have an argument using the GMT360s, but most of them are dead now.

Reg is talking about 6 very similar SUVs. You'll notice the RAV4, and RX aren't in his list.

[Sixty8panther]

Clearly Toyota needs to shutter some divisions, Scion needs to go,

Lexus needs to go and they need to trim down the Toyota lineup to

4 models like it was a few decades ago when they were more

prosperous. Celica, Corolla, Corona and Tacoma. What else do you

need? Also Toyota needs to be re-re-named TOYOPET.

Recipe for success right there... and ALL four models to be RWD.

[Robert Hall]

Clearly Toyota needs to shutter some divisions, Scion needs to go,

Lexus needs to go and they need to trim down the Toyota lineup to

4 models like it was a few decades ago when they were more

prosperous. Celica, Corolla, Corona and Tacoma. What else do you

need? Also Toyota needs to be re-re-named TOYOPET.

Recipe for success right there... and ALL four models to be RWD.

I can't tell if you are being facetious or delusional.

Edited September 12, 2007 by moltar

[Sixty8panther]

A little of both.

But I'd also be happy if Toyota up and died.

[Satty]

Toyota makes too much money to up and die...or to cut brands.

[Sixty8panther]

Oh I know... but perhaps just as GM was the dominat

giant of 1957 and now is having difficulty perhaps

Toyota will in a few decades be on death's door. I can

only hope that people start opening their eyes. I think

Toyota truly is THE most overrated brand out there...

Quality is job # 4,268,925

Sales are job # 1 - 4,268,924

[regfootball]

You walked right into this one......

Equinox

TrailBlazer

Tahoe

Suburban

Torrent

Envoy

Yukon

Suburban XL

Acadia

VUE

OUTLOOK

Enclave

Escalade

Escalade ESV

H2

H3

Toyota....six models split amongst two divisions....

GM....sixteen models split amongst seven division.....

wanna play that game?

highlander

sequioia

4 runner

GX

LX

land cruiser

RAV 4

RX

Matrix

that's 9 for 2 divisions

Edited September 12, 2007 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Yeah because the Equinox, Enclave and Escalade all overlap with each other. A year ago you might have an argument using the GMT360s, but most of them are dead now.

Reg is talking about 6 very similar SUVs. You'll notice the RAV4, and RX aren't in his list.

^^^

thanks for being wise and getting it. unlike others.

[CaddyXLR-V]

wanna play that game?

RAV 4

RX

Matrix

that's 9 for 2 divisions

FJ Cruiser

I would call the xB a mini crossover too

[Polish_Kris]

highlander

sequioia

4 runner

GX

LX

land cruiser

and GM has too many models? GM has too many SUV's?

seems like some serious market overlap to me i can't tell any of those vehicles apart

wasn't this supposed to be the downfall of GM?

Don't you have anything better to do than to start these $h!-disturbing threads just to create attention. Every time I come onto this forum to check up the latest automotive news, I see you starting stupid bashing threads like this. This is becoming boring, that's why I replied to this non-sense. Grow up, you're like thirty-nine years old, stop acting like a seventeen year old gossip queen.

Yeah because the Equinox, Enclave and Escalade all overlap with each other. A year ago you might have an argument using the GMT360s, but most of them are dead now.

Reg is talking about 6 very similar SUVs. You'll notice the RAV4, and RX aren't in his list.

True that, but having the same trucks under GMC and Chevy is still point-less, it should be either Chevy or GMC, you choose GM.

[Robert Hall]

Don't you have anything better to do than to start these $h!-disturbing threads just to create attention. Every time I come onto this forum to check up the latest automotive news, I see you starting stupid bashing threads like this. This is becoming boring, that's why I replied to this non-sense. Grow up, you're like thirty-nine years old, stop acting like a seventeen year old gossip queen.

True that, but having the same trucks under GMC and Chevy is still point-less, it should be either Chevy or GMC, you choose GM.

Agreed...it seems reg is bored and trying to stir up trouble. It's a pointless argument, since given their worldwide success, Toyota is obviously doing many things right... the same argument of many overlapping models could be easily leveled at GM...it's not as bad as it used to be when C-P-O-B had a lookalike generic model of almost every FWD platform, but the various brands still have some overlap.

[Flybrian]

True that, but having the same trucks under GMC and Chevy is still point-less, it should be either Chevy or GMC, you choose GM.

No. And the rationale behind having Chevy and GMC has been justified to death.

[Drew Dowdell]

GMC is the most profitable rebadge this side of an ES330.

[K.C.]

I would argue that GMC no longer rebadges. The newest GMC (Yukon/XL, Sierra, Sierra HD) are not rebadges, they have distinctive sheetmetal.

[regfootball]

the whole point to the thread is to get people's opinions and discussion on whether toyota is doing the very same thing GM has gotten crucified for in the past. its a bonda fide question the press is not asking.

some folks seem to think so. the others, are drinking the koolaid it seems.

the evidence is clear. toyota has too many models overlapping.

the decline has begun.

Edited September 12, 2007 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

the evidence is clear. toyota has too many models overlapping.

Well, speaking of cars, the Avalon has to die in some way. It truly offers nothing over the Camry or ES except even more comical lines.

[regfootball]

the avalon does the defecto steering column, no? i think i read a press release that said that was a good thing.

[siegen]

some folks seem to think so. the others, are drinking the koolaid it seems.

the evidence is clear. toyota has too many models overlapping.

It seems as though you've already made up your mind on the subject.

[regfootball]

It seems as though you've already made up your mind on the subject.

you're not proving otherwise.

give honda credit, their models don't really overlap.

[Farkas]

If anyone wanted to see exactly they stacked up size-wise to each other:

Model...................Length.......Wheelbase....Seats...Engine(s)

Toyota RAV4.............181.1 in.....104.7 in.....5,7.....4-Cylinder, 6-Cylinder
Toyota Highlander.......188.4 in.....109.8 in.....5,7.....6-Cylinder, 6-Cylinder Hybrid
Toyota FJ Cruiser.......183.9 in.....105.9 in.....5.......6-Cylinder
Toyota 4Runner..........189.2 in.....109.8 in.....5,7.....6-Cylinder, 8-Cylinder
Toyota Sequoia..........203.9 in.....118.1 in.....7,8.....8-Cylinder
Toyota Land Cruiser.....192.5 in.....112.2 in.....8.......8-Cylinder

Edited September 13, 2007 by Farkas

[K.C.]

you're not proving otherwise.

give honda credit, their models don't really overlap.

As far as I know, you can post a topic on here when you already have an opinion about it.

[Drew Dowdell]

If anyone wanted to see exactly they stacked up size-wise to each other:

Model...................Length.......Wheelbase....Seats...Engine(s)Toyota RAV4.............181.1 in.....104.7 in.....5,7.....4-Cylinder, 6-CylinderToyota Highlander.......188.4 in.....109.8 in.....5,7.....6-Cylinder, 6-Cylinder HybridToyota FJ Cruiser.......183.9 in.....105.9 in.....5.......6-CylinderToyota 4Runner..........189.2 in.....109.8 in.....5,7.....6-Cylinder, 8-CylinderToyota Sequoia..........203.9 in.....118.1 in.....7,8.....8-CylinderToyota Land Cruiser.....192.5 in.....112.2 in.....8.......8-Cylinder

So, remove the Sequoia and you have a maximum spread of 10 inches over 7 SUVs?

Rav4, Highlander, RX, FJ, 4Runner, Land Cruiser, LX

[Polish_Kris]

I would argue that GMC no longer rebadges. The newest GMC (Yukon/XL, Sierra, Sierra HD) are not rebadges, they have distinctive sheetmetal.

Yeah, I see your point, it's gotten better.

the whole point to the thread is to get people's opinions and discussion on whether toyota is doing the very same thing GM has gotten crucified for in the past. its a bonda fide question the press is not asking.

some folks seem to think so. the others, are drinking the koolaid it seems.

the evidence is clear. toyota has too many models overlapping.

the decline has begun.

No, the whole point of your thread was, to start another nerveracking Toyota bashing debate. No one is drinking kool aid here relax.

the avalon does the defecto steering column, no? i think i read a press release that said that was a good thing.

See there you go again, there is no such thing as good press when it comes to car makers having defects in their cars.

As for the comment that was posted I think by Flybrian, you have a point about the Avalon as being point less. However, I think it's for people who want something between a Camry, and a Lexus. Although, I might argue that for similar money, you can get an ES. As the for SUV debate, I believe that there are many. However, they all run on different platforms. The RAV4 is off a stretched Corolla, the Highlander off a stretched Camry, the Land Crusher is off it's own, and the Sequoia is off the Tundras (with or without the snapping camshafts :-P). Oh yeah, I forgot the 4RUNNER, which runs off the Hilux if I'm not mistaken. It all depends what the customer wants, I think it's a matter of choice. Although, if we have the Sequoia, then why do we get the Land Crusher for? Might as well rename the Sequoia into the Land Crusher badging. However, one might argue that the GMC/CHEVY debate might be a matter of customer's choice. Some perfer GMC, some might chevy, you choose.

[Cory Wolfe]

Hey Reg...

Smallest to Largest:

Escape/Mariner.....Rav4

Edge....................FJ Cruiser

MKX.....................RX

Taurus X..............Highlander

Flex.....................4Runner

Mountaineer.........GX

Explorer...............Land Cruiser

Navigator.............LX

Expedition............Sequoia

[Sixty8panther]

B.V.

You have managed to illustrate how LAME Ford is but the point still remains.

[sciguy_0504]

Matrix and xB crossovers/SUVs? LMFAO! Give it up, please.

If anything in the Toyota SUV lineup needs to be axed, it's the Land Cruiser. I think the sole reason it's kept is because of its history. Other than that, it's useless. The Sequoia could also be called useless since it barely sells but I'll wait for the next-gen.

Edit:

Small crossover: RAV4

Midsize crossover: Highlander

Midsize SUV: 4Runner

Large SUV: Sequoia

Niche SUV: FJ Cruiser

Midsize luxury crossover: RX

Midsize luxury SUV: GX

Large Luxury SUV: LX

If anything, Lexus should (and will) have a true entry-level luxury crossover (just like the other luxury divisions) and possibly a large crossover (like Benz). Toyota may need a large crossover (like Lambda quads). I see bases covered and little overlapping.

Edited September 14, 2007 by sciguy_0504

[regfootball]

B.V.

You have managed to illustrate how LAME Ford is but the point still remains.

no $h!. everyone knows ford has too many SUV's. the point of the thread is to show ludicrous toyota's multiple SUV fest is.

[thegriffon]

i can't tell the difference!!!!!!!!!

That's because there are two different RAV4s—the swb, hatchback A3 A sold in Japan and Europe, and the lwb wagon A3 B sold in the US and Australia, and now in Japan as the Vanguard.

Let's have another look at Toyota's model proliferation:

sedans:

Subcompact

Belta/Yaris

Soluna/Vios

Compact

Corolla (Export)

Corolla (Domestic)

Corolla (US)

Allion

Premio

IS

Belta

Progres

Midsize

Avensis (Europe)

Camry (US/Japan/Australia)

Camry (Asia)

Altis (Daihatsu)

GS

Crown (fleet)

Crown Athlete/Royal/Majesta

Mark X

Large

Avalon

LS

Fullsize

Century

SUVs

Mini

Terios

subcompact

Terios/Be-Go

Rush

compact

Rav4 (3/5-door hatch)

Rav4/Vanguard (Wagon)

Midsize

Highlander (crossover)

Harrier/RX (crossover)

4Runner/Hilux Surf

Land Cruiser 120/Prado

Fortuner

Large

Land Cruiser 130

Land Cruiser 70

LX

Sequoia

Vans

Sienta

Sienna

Noah/Voxy

Wish

Corolla Verso

Porte

Move

Move Latte

Tanto

Atrai

Coo/Materia

bB

xB

HiJet

Rusa

Hiace (Japan)

HiAce (Europe)

Estima/Previa/Tarago

Avanza

Innova

Isis

Ipsum/Avensis Verso

Mark X Zio

Ractis

QD200

Alphard

(that's 26 vans but nowhere near that many sizes or types)

Edited September 26, 2007 by thegriffon

[regfootball]

wow. i didn't realize HOW redundant their worldwide lineup is. for that many models, you'd think they'd sell MORE cars.

[Sixty8panther]

wow. i didn't realize HOW redundant their worldwide lineup is. for that many models, you'd think they'd sell MORE cars.

Sssshhh!

Don't even say that.

[CMG]

I would say both GM and Chrysler are guilty of WAYYYYY too many overlapping markets, SUV products being the most blatant.

Toyota is doing what the saying says... "When in Rome..."

:wink:

Whatever they are doing, they are doing it with success.

[Polish_Kris]

wow. i didn't realize HOW redundant their worldwide lineup is. for that many models, you'd think they'd sell MORE cars.

Jee.... North American mentality of numbers numbers numbers sales sales sales. They just have so many models because of the different markets they cover. Plus, not all countries are as first world as Canada and the US, so not that many people can afford to go off and buy new cars.

[thegriffon]

Jee.... North American mentality of numbers numbers numbers sales sales sales. They just have so many models because of the different markets they cover. Plus, not all countries are as first world as Canada and the US, so not that many people can afford to go off and buy new cars.

That excuse only accounts for a few models—Lexus and the Avanza and the Innova. Most of these are sold in a single market. Many of the rest exist because of manufacturing inflexibility and internal politics. Many models exist purely because an earlier model missed the mark on size, styling or price, yet for some reason both models enter a second generation, partly because to spread out the models they were given to different dealer networks in Japan, partly because someone is more likely to get what they want asking for another midsize, 7-seat BOF SUV, compact MPV, or minivan etc. rather than fix the existing product. After all "We can afford it".

[Camino LS6]

All those models and not a single one I would ever want - amazing. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

Of course Toyota isn't alone, there has never been a single asian model I have ever wanted.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Of course Toyota isn't alone, there has never been a single asian model I have ever wanted.

Really not one Asian Model?

Are you sure?

[Camino LS6]

Don't go making me doubt myself!

unfair! unfair!

[Camino LS6]

Of course Toyota isn't alone, there has never been a single asian automobile I have ever wanted.

There, fixed.