The death of Saturn

[Aura XR]

Sad, this article made me think about Saturn and how GM actually might have killed off another division without us knowing. As a 5 times Saturn owner, I do believe that Saturn is quickly becoming the new Oldsmobile.

Saturn: A Different Kind of Car Company, Indeed

September 5, 2007, 12:25 pm | By Jerry Garrett | Link to Original Article @ New York Times

At least Oldsmobile got a decent funeral. Saturn got nothing.

A lot of people don’t realize General Motors killed a second division, Saturn, recently. That’s because there was never an obit. Why? For some reason, G.M. wants people to think that Saturn is still alive. But G.M. has not only killed it, it has dismembered the body and dumped pieces at undisclosed locations, and replaced it with an impostor.

Saturn, the automobile manufacturer, R.I.P.

Saturn design? Dead. Saturn engineering? Just as dead. The old Spring Hill, Tenn., plant, where Saturns were once made, lives on, albeit with a transplanted heart (Chevrolet pun intended). But Spring Hill now just churns out generic G.M. stuff, like any other G.M. plant. Saturn employees really don’t exist anymore, despite what it may say on a few business cards. Everybody sporting a Saturn logo these days merely sells “G.M. cars.”

Sure, Saturn-badged cars are still sold. But Saturn, the company, is now reduced to being the United States marketing arm for Opel. Opel is a brand of G.M. car sold principally in Europe.

How did G.M. so stealthily pull off doing away with the old Saturn, and replacing it with the new pseudo-Saturn? I don’t know exactly, but it was almost the perfect crime. It would be interesting to unravel this murder mystery and identify the culprits. (Seems like G.M. could just as easily revive Oldsmobile by slapping Olds badges on, say, G.M.’s cool Holden vehicles from Australia!)

My colleague Lawrence Ulrich noted in his review of current Saturn-badged models that Opels are nice cars. Maybe Saturn is better off dead.

But the point is, I think the old Saturn deserved at least a memorial service. Proud Olds employees gave their old brand an almost Irish-quality wake, despite G.M.’s disdain.

I know a guy (I won’t use his name, because he still works at G.M. and is not allowed to talk about such things with the press) who was one of Saturn’s first 99 employees (known, believe it or not, as “the 99″), back when the “different kind of company” first started ramping up in the early 1980s to build “a different kind of car.” Everybody moved to Spring Hill to the new Saturn headquarters, where the vehicles would be designed, engineered and assembled. It was a heady time for those early pioneers, as they set out against long odds, to “reinvent the automobile,” as G.M. had charged them to do. Saturn was always a big money-loser for G.M. (G.M. won’t say how much the loss was), but customers were loyal, and resale values of Saturns were generally stellar, even if their reliability records weren’t.

“The sad part of this,” this fellow recently told me, “is that the Saturn system did, in my opinion, work although it had problems. It could have been a benefit to G.M. by helping it do things differently, but instead of building it up, G.M. killed it.”

Somewhere, true Saturn-lovers fly their flags at half-staff

[Camino LS6]

Stupid and pointless article with a slew of comments by people without a clue. If you want to see the perception problem read them.

What a bunch of ill-informed fools.

Saturn was a stupid idea and a complete waste of resources, until now.

[Intrepidation]

Except Saturn was pretty much dying with the mediocre products it had. Plastic panels were unique but the design inside and out was lackluster and so were the driving Dynamics.

I'll take the new Saturn over the old any day.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It was assimilated and is now part of the GM collective as it should be. A few more need to be assimilated too! Resistance is futile.

[Cadillacfan]

An obvious smear article aimed at GM. Something becoming quite common from the NYTimes lately (Tom Friedman ring any bells?)

First the journalists complain that GM neglected it's Saturn division and that they didn't get it and now that they're trying to do something about it, the brand is no longer Saturn-y enough for this d-bag. You just know that those people wrote comments about how they're leaving Saturn and going to Toyota are not Saturn people at all... but the same people who troll Autoblog, Caranddriver, and autoweek looking for ways to jump on the GM bashwagon.

I'd hate to sound like a blind follower here, but GM is truly alone when the press, and the government (both democrats and republicans) won't give them a fair shake.

They won't stop until the company is dead and buried. I say, screw 'em all.

[Camino LS6]

Saturn should never have existed in the first place.

The fact that it persisted as long as it did left GM with little option but to re-make it, and they've done a great job.

[Camino LS6]

I wonder if those twits at the New York Times will have the cojones to post what I just submitted as commentary on that article.

Only that rag would publish such an asinine article.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Saturn should never have existed in the first place.

The fact that it persisted as long as it did left GM with little option but to re-make it, and they've done a great job thanks to Opel.

Fixed!

Edited September 7, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Fixed!

Don't sprain anything patting yourself on the back! :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

Don't sprain anything patting yourself on the back! :AH-HA_wink:

I can't pat myself on the back, I still have pins and screws in my arm.

Edited September 7, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

I can't pat myself on the back, I still have pins and screws in my arm.

I forgot about that injury!

The recovery going ok?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Cast is off, the rest of my hardware that needs to be removed will be so, before I leave for Europe. Thanks for asking.

[Camino LS6]

Glad to hear it.

[AxelTheRed]

What that artice said is exactly like saying "Buick City is gone, so therefore Buick no longer exists."

[Camino LS6]

Well, they actually posted my reply:

This article is nothing but pointless sentimental drivel. Caring about the old Saturn makes about as much sense as caring about the ugly ,old desk lamp in the Ikea commercial. From its inception, Saturn was an ill-conceived idea which rapidly became a black hole that GM threw money into. The Saturn experiment was a failure before it started and cost GM many times what it would have taken to bring its divisions up to par, and spare Oldsmobile its unfortunate fate. When the Saturn gamble was taken, fools were running the show.

Thankfully, those days are over. Finally, Saturn is relevant in the market and GM is building great cars throughout the entire brand structure. Most of you folks commenting here are stuck in the past. Look beyond the knee-jerk loyalty to Japanese products, and you will find that GM, and Ford for that matter, are building some of the highest quality products currently on the market.

It isn’t 1980 any more.

[Camino LS6]

I had to add another response to a rebuttal of my original post:

Chris,

If GM had simply invested in creating the same sort of car as the early Saturns for its then existing divisions instead of creating an entirely new division from scratch, literally billions could have been saved. The notion that they had to create an entirely new dealership structure, redundant R&D organization,manufacturing infrastructure, management structure, and all the myriad other expenses involved in launching a new brand just to build a competitive small car is patently absurd.

Only now has Saturn become a viable and valueable asset to GM. The original concept was almost totally bereft of logic, excepting the buying/ownership experience. An expensive , roundabout way to learn to treat your customers with respect.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I just posted to it now, I wonder if they will post it?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

An obvious smear article aimed at GM. Something becoming quite common from the NYTimes lately (Tom Friedman ring any bells?)

First the journalists complain that GM neglected it's Saturn division and that they didn't get it and now that they're trying to do something about it, the brand is no longer Saturn-y enough for this d-bag. You just know that those people wrote comments about how they're leaving Saturn and going to Toyota are not Saturn people at all... but the same people who troll Autoblog, Caranddriver, and autoweek looking for ways to jump on the GM bashwagon.

I'd hate to sound like a blind follower here, but GM is truly alone when the press, and the government (both democrats and republicans) won't give them a fair shake.

They won't stop until the company is dead and buried. I say, screw 'em all.

^^^

It's a sad day when smear articles like this are ALLOWED out of the print room.

Seriously; how long did it take someone to put together this turd (Probably not more than 10 minutes given the lack of both fact and substance)

It's a sad day when the media is ALLOWED to smear a company like this without consequences.

But here's the great thing: the article is so f*cking jumbled and laughable that people who aren't enthusiasts (a.k.a. don't know the story behind all of the remarks in the first place) probably won't even know what the hell this idiot is talking about. I can see the confused looks on NY Times readers faces now (That is, if anyone even still reads newspapers---which are, probably more so than Detroit, a dieing industry)

Way to go dude... Get drunk again, and write another jewel that nobody comprehends and nobody cares about!

[Camino LS6]

They posted it.

Fly should post his rebuttal there as well.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

My reply... I'm willing to bet good money that it won't appear.

"Wow..

After reading the responses to this article, I can see why something like this was allowed out of the print room in the first place. NY TImes and it's readers seem to be almost as like minded as Consumer Reports and it's readership.

It's the same thing everytime: "blah, blah, blah... GM makes crappy cars... Blah blah blah... They'll keep sucking until... Blah Blah Blah... I'm still mad about my 1981 Nova...etc."

It's time to wake up and LEARN that GM is making some of the best products on the market right now and has been for quite some time; read the facts folks, not opinion like this.

As for the article... It has no purpose, no facts, no real reason to exist and is pretty much an embarassment to the abilities once housed by it's parent organization. Hmmm.. Kind of sounds like the OLD Saturn, doesn't it."

AND I COULDN'T LEAVE IT ALONE (Another reply)

"P.S. I find very funny that GM remakes Saturn into it's most competitive offering in record time, thus sealing it's future as a large part of GM going forward, yet the NY Times still finds some way to criticize the brand and the corporation. It's really getting old outside of your core readership, which probably consists of people who haven't even looked at the new Saturns much less driven them."

Why -o- why do I enjoy starting $h! so much? It's good to be the FOG

Edited September 7, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[deftonesfan867]

Because it's who you are

[Oracle of Delphi]

My response!

Thank God the Wilmington Assembly Plant broke free of the Saturn yoke, to become a real GM assembly plant again. Yes we make the hot Kappa cars now!

As far as Saturn goes, blame Roger Smilth, Saturn was his baby, a baby that should have been aborted!

[Camino LS6]

So far, all of our comments have been posted.

[K.C.]

It sounds like the author has a very hard time ot letting go of the past. The former Saturn was not working well. The new one is, well like always and better than before because the products are more relevant. Sales are up, products are world class. Whats the problem? Isn't anything good enough for the NY Times? Ohhhh, thats right. Toyota and Honda are good enough. I wonder if Toyota paid them to write that artcile with more advertising dollars hmmmm.

Old Saturn:

SL Sedan

SC Coupe

SW Wagon

LS Sedan

LS Wagon

New Saturn

Astra

Aura

Vue

Outlook

Sky

Hmmmm, which one would YOU choose?

<-------NY Times articles

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It really seems that the media can't even wait long enough for Saturn to grow into a success before they begin tearing it down. All I've read lately is BAD editorials regarding Saturn or it's performance this year.

At least they waited until Cadillac actually started turning the corner before they ripped back into it.

[regfootball]

Well, they actually posted my reply:

This article is nothing but pointless sentimental drivel. Caring about the old Saturn makes about as much sense as caring about the ugly ,old desk lamp in the Ikea commercial. From its inception, Saturn was an ill-conceived idea which rapidly became a black hole that GM threw money into. The Saturn experiment was a failure before it started and cost GM many times what it would have taken to bring its divisions up to par, and spare Oldsmobile its unfortunate fate. When the Saturn gamble was taken, fools were running the show.

Thankfully, those days are over. Finally, Saturn is relevant in the market and GM is building great cars throughout the entire brand structure. Most of you folks commenting here are stuck in the past. Look beyond the knee-jerk loyalty to Japanese products, and you will find that GM, and Ford for that matter, are building some of the highest quality products currently on the market.

It isn’t 1980 any more.

your post rocks.

[Drew Dowdell]

on the Fastlane blog there is quite literally a guy who says he won't buy Cadillacs anymore because all his previous ones gave him trouble.... and his last one, a 198x Cimirron was the worst.

Tell me sir, how was that 1979 Toyota for you?

[Flybrian]

Mine's been posted, too...

Thank you for that excellent rebuttal, Kyle.

After recently attending your division's Brand Advocate Meeting, speaking to the enthusiastic Saturn owners, retailers, and enthusiasts there as well as the thousands of members on Cheersandgears.com on a daily basis, I can only come to the conclusion that the Saturn of today is the cornerstone of a solid tomorrow. Perhaps Mr. Garrett should be invited to the next one to see the enthusiasm of the 'old-timers' and the new blood in watching their infantile car company mature into a real player.

While Mr. Garrett is correct that the 'company within but apart from The Company' that was the original Saturn experiment is gone, the mentality and spirit is still alive and as in fact spread throughout GM. The intelligent manufacturing techniques honed in Tennessee continues to be refined and improved at Grand River, Delta Township, and the new retooled Spring Hill. As a side note, Mr. Garrett's allusion to the Chevrolet version of the Lambda crossover being slated for Spring Hill is indicidive of the great success of the current trio, of which Saturn's OUTLOOK is one.

"Customers were loyal"

Guess what? They still are. Evidence the number of Saturn 'families' who continue to add the VUE, AURA, and SKY to their driveway. I can offer a brief anecdote of a close friend of mine who is trading an SL2 for an AURA XE and whose uncle just bought an '08 VUE. No doubt these anecdotes speaking form small chapters of Saturn's larger success.

"Resale values were generally stellar"

Perhaps. I know the new cars will be even more 'resellable' and more importantly, more appealing. Folks who would never have considered a lowly Saturn scrambled to get SKY roadsters (and I suspect we'll see something similar with the coming Astra 3-door).

"Even if their reliability records weren't"

Dubious, but for a moment assume true. Quality is certainly improved with the newer flock and reliability is bolstered by using known and reknowned GM powertrains. Even among the first S-cars, realiability was respectable. Browse a local paper or Craigslist to see a preponderence of older, higher-mileage Saturns trudging along through their fourth and fifth owners.

But the most glaring dysfunction of Mr. Garrett's piece is his complete ignorance of the current state of Saturn. As an Oldsmobile owner, his comparison is irresponsible and inaccurate. Oldsmobile similarly underwent a massive infusion of cash and major turnaround resulting in truly world-class, standard-bearing vehicles like the original Aurora of which I'm a proud owner, but for reasons that would dominate several blogs, they didn't take.

Simply put, Olds is gone; Saturn still exists. And is growing. Mr. Garrett acts as if traditional Saturn owners are turning away in droves and non-Saturn, non-GM intenders aren't even bothing to look at the cars. It couldn't be further from the truth. And while (from my perspective) the intensive product bombardment of the past year and a half could have been orchestrated better, the simple fact is Saturn has a far better lineup than it ever, ever did before.

Perhaps Mr. Garrett would've preferred Saturn to have its 'independence' to continue churning out a palatable but utterly boring and unappealing line of three compacts in an evolving marketplace where even traditional niche players are expanding their portfolios. If they did, I'm certain his article would be spot-on correct because Saturn would be dead.

As I've heard quite a few put it, the Saturns of today are fulfilling the promise that Saturn made almost two decades ago. Perhaps most telling is an old-school Buick/Oldsmobile man like my father, who would've never considered being seen behind the wheel of an original Saturn, taking a seriously keen interest in the AURA. Traditionalists, lifelong import owners, Saturn diehards, and those in between are more and more buying Saturns that ever before.

And if that's not evidence of life, I don't know what is.

Keep up the good work. Can't wait to see what else is around the corner.

P.S. I'll gladly take Mr. Garrett's Saturn test drive for him. Make it a blue metallic Astra XR.

[PurdueGuy]

An expensive , roundabout way to learn to treat your customers with respect.

Shame they spent so much to learn that... and didn't. There are still a lot of rotten apples, and sadly they're spreading throughout the Saturn brand, as well.

I'm sorry, but I related to the article. Many of you are seeing this as a purely negative article. Convenient to overlook their comment that maybe it's better than the old Saturn is dead, in light of the new lineup of cars. That's a POSITIVE comment!

Saturn as a company is dead. Saturn as a brand lives on.

To quote a Spring Hill worker, in response to the article:

That is f****** Hilarious. That is the same s*** that I've been saying as well as the majority of us that are around the plant of the people that worked there, since the onset of the Delta platform. And it wasn't a perfect crime, only a moron couldn't have realized what was going on way back in 95 when GM refused to allow Saturn Corp. to buy its own name from them like they f***ing promised in 91. Instead they launched the Delware bulls*** that brought a profitable company into the red like the iceburg f***ed up the Titanic. Dead, lol that s*** has been dead since the first wave of retiree's saw the signs like birds before a natural disaster and took the 60k inscentives to get the f*** out of there while the getting was good. As for Saturn employee's; that title went with the the death of the S-Series. Sure, our plant was the test base for the delta's but that doesn't make it saturn. It makes it another rebadged GM product. I'm just glad that someone in the media is saying something about it, not that its not beating a dead horse or anything.

When the last S series rolled off the line, I was on my roof playing TAPS on my trumpet to the death of a different kind of car.

You guys may not like the old Saturn, and may love the new Saturn, but a lot of people felt betrayed by many events that led to where the brand is today. It is not unreasonable to pay homage to that feeling of betrayal, especially when the article then affirms that maybe it's best for the brand overall that it is where it is today.

Some of you may whine that the money didn't go to Chevy, or whoever. If those brands had done things right to start with, there would have been no justification for Saturn in the first place. Saturn did some things right that the other brands weren't, which is covertly acknowledged by stating that Spring Hill practices have somewhat spread to other plants, along with the justification of rejuvenating the brand due to the loyalty and customer experience that was developed that didn't exist in other brands. New and valuable things were created, and I rarely see that acknowledge whenever someone on here whines about "all the lost money."

Edited September 8, 2007 by PurdueGuy

[vonVeezelsnider]

Although I don't agree w. the article, I'm glad that the sendoff people gave Oldsmobile was noted...

[Oracle of Delphi]

That is f****** Hilarious. That is the same s*** that I've been saying as well as the majority of us that are around the plant of the people that worked there, since the onset of the Delta platform. And it wasn't a perfect crime, only a moron couldn't have realized what was going on way back in 95 when GM refused to allow Saturn Corp. to buy its own name from them like they f***ing promised in 91. Instead they launched the Delware bulls*** that brought a profitable company into the red like the iceburg f***ed up the Titanic. Dead, lol that s*** has been dead since the first wave of retiree's saw the signs like birds before a natural disaster and took the 60k inscentives to get the f*** out of there while the getting was good. As for Saturn employee's; that title went with the the death of the S-Series. Sure, our plant was the test base for the delta's but that doesn't make it saturn. It makes it another rebadged GM product. I'm just glad that someone in the media is saying something about it, not that its not beating a dead horse or anything.

When the last S series rolled off the line, I was on my roof playing TAPS on my trumpet to the death of a different kind of car.

That's pretty funny, Wilmington Assembly [AKA: Delware bulls***] worked hard to bring the old Saturn to it's knees. It does my heart good to know they realize it too. After all Saturn came to Wilmington like the Borg and tried to assimilate us, guess who got assimilated in the end? I learned very well how to bring a rogue subsidiary back into the GM fold, in fact it's a specialty of mine.

[PurdueGuy]

That's pretty funny, Wilmington Assembly [AKA: Delware bulls***] worked hard to bring the old Saturn to it's knees. It does my heart good to know they realize it too. After all Saturn came to Wilmington like the Borg and tried to assimilate us, guess who got assimilated in the end? I learned very well how to bring a rogue subsidiary back into the GM fold, in fact it's a specialty of mine.

I don't understand the events personally, but it sounds like many workers on both ends of the Delaware deal weren't thrilled with it. From the quote I posted it sounds like corporate GM forced Saturn's hand, but I don't really know that. I will be looking to learn more about the events from those involved, and would definitely be interested in some perspective from someone involved in Delaware.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I don't understand the events personally, but it sounds like many workers on both ends of the Delaware deal weren't thrilled with it. From the quote I posted it sounds like corporate GM forced Saturn's hand, but I don't really know that. I will be looking to learn more about the events from those involved, and would definitely be interested in some perspective from someone involved in Delaware.

All you really need to know is that the shotgun wedding that Saturn forced Wilmington into at that time was a marriage Wilmington tried to wiggle out of at the 1st chance it had. What Saturn failed to realize was, as they were busy trying to assimilate the Wilmington plant (which they never truely accomplished), GM started to assimilate them. First our plant manager was named as Saturn president, and that truely was the begining of the end of Saturn as an independent (rogue) car company. Wilmington had a long history of building cars, and as such, had powerful friends inside GM to help them break free of the Saturn chains of bondage.

Dennis Dougherty, who had worked at Wilmington a year or so before Saturn took control of the Wilmington plant, was promoted up to Detroit. When it was announced that Wilmington would again be a GM plant again an no longer a Saturn plant, it was like Liberation Day in Paris. Then GM announced that Dennis Dougherty would be coming back, GM was sending us a message that they were sending Wilmington family back to us, to help in the healing process for Wilmington. The day Dennis had the Saturn signs removed and the new GM signs put up, is a day I personally will never forget.

Looking back on it, I think Wilmington was used as a diversion, as GM back doored Saturn into submission. I still remember Saturn saying in meetings "You don't understand, we are not part of GM!", Righttt I would say, then where is your stock I want to buy some. I was one of Saturn's biggest antagonist and try as they would, they could never seem to get me relocated from Wilmington plant, and boy did they try! :AH-HA_wink:

Oh well Saturn as a company is dead, Saturn as brand lives on, as does the Wilmington plant. I now await some electrifying news coming out Wilmington in the future. There is always something going on there.

Edited September 8, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[enzl]

An obvious smear article aimed at GM. Something becoming quite common from the NYTimes lately (Tom Friedman ring any bells?)

First the journalists complain that GM neglected it's Saturn division and that they didn't get it and now that they're trying to do something about it, the brand is no longer Saturn-y enough for this d-bag. You just know that those people wrote comments about how they're leaving Saturn and going to Toyota are not Saturn people at all... but the same people who troll Autoblog, Caranddriver, and autoweek looking for ways to jump on the GM bashwagon.

I'd hate to sound like a blind follower here, but GM is truly alone when the press, and the government (both democrats and republicans) won't give them a fair shake.

They won't stop until the company is dead and buried. I say, screw 'em all.

Oy.

Either its:

A. a vast conspiracy, aligned against GM for no real apparent reason, nor anything to gain OR

B. GM had about 20 yrs. of mediocrity punctuated by moments of outright corporate dementia, but have recently been awoken--and no they have little credibility with their critics...

Saturn is moving in the right direction, as a passenger car division of GM.

Saturn as an idea, however, has been put out to pasture, which I believe is the article's point.

(Or, everyone's just against us...)

Edited September 8, 2007 by enzl

[pow]

All you really need to know is that the shotgun wedding that Saturn forced Wilmington into at that time was a marriage Wilmington tried to wiggle out of at the 1st chance it had. What Saturn failed to realize was, as they were busy trying to assimilate the Wilmington plant (which they never truely accomplished), GM started to assimilate them. First our plant manager was named as Saturn president, and that truely was the begining of the end of Saturn as an independent (rogue) car company. Wilmington had a long history of building cars, and as such, had powerful friends inside GM to help them break free of the Saturn chains of bondage.

Dennis Dougherty, who had worked at Wilmington a year or so before Saturn tool control of the Wilmington plant, was promoted up to Detroit. When it was announced that Wilmington would again be a GM plant again an no longer a Saturn plant, it was like Liberation Day in Paris. Then GM announced that Dennis Dougherty would be coming back, GM was sending us a message that they were sending Wilmington family back to us, to help in the healing process for Wilmington. The day Dennis had the Saturn signs removed and the new GM signs put up, is a day I personally will never forget.

Looking back on it, I think Wilmington was used as a diversion, as GM back doored Saturn into submission. I still remember Saturn saying in meetings "You don't understand, we are not part of GM!", Righttt I would say, then where is your stock I want to buy some. I was one of Saturn's biggest antagonist and try as they would, they could never seem to get me relocated from Wilmington plant, and boy did they try! :AH-HA_wink:

Oh well Saturn as a company is dead, Saturn as brand lives on, as does the Wilmington plant. I now await some electrifying news coming out Wilmington in the future. There is always something going on there.

Well you've just proved the blog's point. Saturn as an "independent", "free-thinking", creative company is dead. People at GM "forced it into submission" and killed it. Now it's just another brand.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well you've just proved the blog's point. Saturn as an "independent", "free-thinking", creative company is dead. People at GM "forced it into submission" and killed it. Now it's just another brand.

I agree, GM needed to do that. Look how much better the product and the lineup is now as compared to what it was at Saturn then. With a little help from Opel.

Edited September 8, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[vt_hokie]

Give me a Saturn that I can hit with a mallet and not have it dent, and I'll be interested again! GM has a whole line of other divisions for people who care about panel gaps - give Saturn the dent resistant panels back!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Give me a Saturn that I can hit with a mallet and not have it dent, and I'll be interested again! GM has a whole line of other divisions for people who care about panel gaps - give Saturn the dent resistant panels back!

Kiss them good-bye!

[vt_hokie]

Kiss them good-bye!

Kiss Saturn goodbye if its lackluster sales continue. The S Series outsold any of the Opel crap that Saturn is selling now.

I just hope sooner or later some automaker starts using dent resistant panels again for car exteriors.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well you've just proved the blog's point. Saturn as an "independent", "free-thinking", creative company is dead. People at GM "forced it into submission" and killed it. Now it's just another brand.

Ya know... People crack me up because they talk about Saturn as if it were the genius bar at an Apple store with all of these EXCELLENT ideas and GREAT products.

The entire Saturn waste of resources gave us what exactly?!?! Dent resistant body panels that are reviled by the media and have been around in one form or another since the Endura nose on 1970 GTOs? The S-Series line of cars? The dealership experience?

Has anyone ever rode in a Saturn S? They're horrible uncomfortable, hard plastic buzz boxes that pretty much EVERYONE who has ever owned one hates. I've had the pleasure of talking to many young people who hate these cars because they were forced into them by their import minded parents.

It doesn't take a new company and millions of dollars to figure out that you have to both respect and care for the consumer.

Saturn is exactly where it needs to be, and had I been at GM I would've laughed very hard at the "We buy our name from you" and "We are not a part of GM" statements. Because as long as you're dealing with the family funding and not making your own money, you're still a part of the family. Especially if you're one of the primary reasons the oldest member of the family died and the other members of the family suffered.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ya know... People crack me up because they talk about Saturn as if it were the genius bar at an Apple store with all of these EXCELLENT ideas and GREAT products.

The entire Saturn waste of resources gave us what exactly?!?! Dent resistant body panels that are reviled by the media and have been around in one form or another since the Endura nose on 1970 GTOs? The S-Series line of cars? The dealership experience?

Has anyone ever rode in a Saturn S? They're horrible uncomfortable, hard plastic buzz boxes that pretty much EVERYONE who has ever owned one hates. I've had the pleasure of talking to many young people who hate these cars because they were forced into them by their import minded parents.

It doesn't take a new company and millions of dollars to figure out that you have to both respect and care for the consumer.

Saturn is exactly where it needs to be, and had I been at GM I would've laughed very hard at the "We buy our name from you" and "We are not a part of GM" statements. Because as long as you're dealing with the family funding and not making your own money, you're still a part of the family. Especially if you're one of the primary reasons the oldest member of the family died and the other members of the family suffered.

I agree, Amerika's answer to the German Trabant, at that time! :rotflmao:

See I hated Saturn long before my dislike of Holden started. But now that Saturn is Opel, they are kool with me.

Edited September 8, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Intrepidation]

That is f****** Hilarious. That is the same s*** that I've been saying as well as the majority of us that are around the plant of the people that worked there, since the onset of the Delta platform. And it wasn't a perfect crime, only a moron couldn't have realized what was going on way back in 95 when GM refused to allow Saturn Corp. to buy its own name from them like they f***ing promised in 91. Instead they launched the Delware bulls*** that brought a profitable company into the red like the iceburg f***ed up the Titanic. Dead, lol that s*** has been dead since the first wave of retiree's saw the signs like birds before a natural disaster and took the 60k inscentives to get the f*** out of there while the getting was good. As for Saturn employee's; that title went with the the death of the S-Series. Sure, our plant was the test base for the delta's but that doesn't make it saturn. It makes it another rebadged GM product. I'm just glad that someone in the media is saying something about it, not that its not beating a dead horse or anything.

When the last S series rolled off the line, I was on my roof playing TAPS on my trumpet to the death of a different kind of car.

My, My...the intelligent use of vocabulary really helps back up whatever point they were trying to make. Then you look at posts like Fly's and see where the real intelligence lies.

[ocnblu]

The separate-ness of Saturn is what made import intenders and others interested in Saturn in the first place. Now that they're just another assimilated division, they've lost that special something. GM started off fine, but let the S-series get stale, then when the warmed-over Opel Vectra L-series came out, it was like nobody cared.

It was the IDEA of Saturn that made it interesting. That IDEA is dead, and there is a long haul ahead for GM to gain new customers for this brand, now that there is nothing unique about the vehicles, now that they've lost those independent thinkers who made Saturn any kind of success in the beginning... and their policy of selling for MSRP worked when they were unique, but now that they're not, that is going to have to go by the wayside, too. Who would buy a SKY, AURA, VUE or OUTLOOK for MSRP when other GM divisions are dealing on the same vehicles?

The Saturn S-series was a tough little car that went its own road. The dent-resistant panels have kept them looking good long after other cars in their class got dinged up and rusty around the edges. It is a shame that GM ran the car into the ground until it became too late... now they have this brilliant new strategy to Opelize Saturn... well I hope it works better than EVERY OTHER experiment (Americanizing one of their European products) of this kind that was put forth by a domestic manufacturer...

Buick sold Opels for a while, then when they got too expensive for the USA they stuck an Opel tag on an Isuzu T-body.

Pontiac/Daewoo/Opel LeMans, anyone?

Merkur?

Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique?

Saturn/Opel L-series?

Look at Ford with their brilliant new Focus, while we get a reskinned version of the same old thing... European tastes and expectations in a small car are vastly different than what Americans expect, and it has proven difficult, time and time again to take costs out of a Euro market car and bring it here. You know VW loses money on every Rabbit they sell here because the car is too good for its class... it is unashamedly built to European tastes... currency values are certainly not helping, either. It will be interesting to see how well the Astra sells here v. the class... it is a bit expensive, like the Rabbit.

[Flybrian]

Those are poor comparisons, Ocn. The versions of those cars imported were either not very good for this market or simply not very good in general.

[CaddyXLR-V]

This should be renamed to:

The death of GM operating as 20 different companies and doing everything wrong.

GM should be integrated as one company worldwide, with Holden, Opel, and GM NA all sharing resources to benefit the company. Pontiac needs RWD cars, Holden already has them. It would be insane to just let Pontiac build their own from scratch, just like it was insane to do for Saturn 20 years ago. Saturn getting Opels is the smart thing to do.

[A Horse With No Name]

Except Saturn was pretty much dying with the mediocre products it had. Plastic panels were unique but the design inside and out was lackluster and so were the driving Dynamics.

I'll take the new Saturn over the old any day.

I could not agree more. Lots of people were turned off with the old Saturns, lots of people are being turned on with the new.

Competition and the need for companies to survive is a dandy thing.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Look at Ford with their brilliant new Focus, while we get a reskinned version of the same old thing... European tastes and expectations in a small car are vastly different than what Americans expect, and it has proven difficult, time and time again to take costs out of a Euro market car and bring it here. You know VW loses money on every Rabbit they sell here because the car is too good for its class... it is unashamedly built to European tastes... currency values are certainly not helping, either. It will be interesting to see how well the Astra sells here v. the class... it is a bit expensive, like the Rabbit.

The Rabbit is not a good car, period. The build quality is just not there, 5 cyl motor is not fuel efficient, car has a worse interior layout than the golf...

Why do you think the Opel has passed the Rabbit in european sales?

Chris

[ocnblu]

Pontiac needs RWD cars for sure, but they also have a strong styling legacy that is being eroded by the likes of the G8. But I don't want to steer this thread away from topic.

Mr. Stang, drive a Rabbit. You'll feel the difference. Shut a door with the window down. Shut the hatch lid. Pull and poke on the interior. It is solid everywhere you look and touch. If the Astra is as solidly put together as a Rabbit, it should do well. I haven't been near an Astra, but I am eager to poke around one.

VW is not perfect. I've owned four so far, but the way they drive is so unique, they'll always hold a special place in my driving heart. How many years has the Golf been the number ONE selling car in all of Europe? Yes, Opel must be doing something right recently with the Astra overtaking the Golf in sales... the question is, how will that translate here in The States?

Edited September 8, 2007 by ocnblu

[CaddyXLR-V]

Pontiac needs RWD cars for sure, but they also have a strong styling legacy that is being eroded by the likes of the G8. But I don't want to steer this thread away from topic.

That legacy eroded long long ago.

[Intrepidation]

That legacy eroded long long ago.

Quotted for Truth.