Toyota takes a swipe at GM's E-Flex

[Flybrian]

Toyota Takes A Swipe at GM’s E-Flex

Link to Original Article @ Green Car Congress | 4 September 2007

Toyota Motor Corporation (TMC) is positioning its emerging approach to plug-in hybrid vehicles—based on augmenting the battery pack of a conventional hybrid and altering the operating strategy—as an approach superior to that of the series-hybrid architecture of GM’s E-Flex systems, as represented by the different versions of the Chevy Volt.

The rationale, outlined by Toyota Executive Vice President Kazuo Okamoto in a presentation about the company’s technology strategies to investors in Tokyo on 3 Sep, is that once current parameters such as driving range, required battery size and charge time are factored in, the augmentation of the existing parallel-hybrid platform makes the most sense.

The prototype Toyota plug-in is based on a Prius with a 2.6kWh NiMH battery pack supporting an all-electric range of 13 km (8 miles). The gasoline (flex-fuel) version of the Chevy Volt, targeted for production in 2010, is spec’d to have a 16kWh li-ion battery pack that supports a 40-mile all-electric range.

The presentation, Challenges for Sustainable Mobility, outlined a number of Toyota technology efforts including advanced gasoline and diesel engine work and alternative fuels (biofuels, hydrogen and electricity).

The investor presentation followed Toyota’s announcement in July that it has developed a plug-in hybrid vehicle and had become the first manufacturer to have such a vehicle certified for use on public roads in Japan.

Toyota will conduct public-road tests in Japan with eight units of the Plug-in HV to verify electric-motor-only cruising ranges and optimal battery capacity. While doing so, it plans to provide the government with data for formulating testing methods for emissions and fuel efficiency and to consider TMC’s measures for promoting plug-in hybrids and the use of electricity.

In addition, Toyota is also providing plug-in hybrid prototypes to the Advanced Power and Energy Program at the University of California, Irvine (UCI) and the Institute of Transportation Studies at the University of California, Berkeley (UCB), as part of its on-going sustainable mobility development program with the two UC campuses.

Toyota and French utility EDF reportedly will announce an agreement this week to develop recharging points to serve the plug-in hybrid cars Toyota plans to roll out in a few years’ time.

Toyota has already expressed concerns on the record about after-market conversions of existing hybrids to plug-in hybrids.

Also, at the recent 2007 Management Briefing Seminars in Traverse City, Michigan, Toyota told the audience that a number of serious hurdles stand in the way of getting plug-in hybrids on the road, and that even if the vehicles do make it to market, a battery-powered plug-in may be no more efficient in reducing carbon dioxide emissions than the current charge-sustaining gas-electric hybrids on the road today.

In August, reports contended that Toyota was going to delay its deployment of lithium-ion batteries in high electric-mileage hybrids because of safety concerns with its batteries, which use cobalt oxide cathode materials.

[Flybrian]

Sounds like a company that got caught with its pants down.

[Camino LS6]

Spin City.

[K.C.]

:angry2: Just goes to prove that Toyota is a class operation.

[PurdueGuy]

Interesting - they've played with sizing through the whole thing, and it's somewhat realistic - E-flex has larger motor & battery, smaller engine. Psynergy drive or whatever its' called has a bigger engine & smaller battery & motor. What that says to me, though, is that the E-Flex setup doesn't need as big of an engine. Seems to me if it doesn't need as big of an engine, that it's probably getting by on better fuel economy...

Toyota advantages: CO2 reduction & promotion of alternative fuels? What a load of crap! The E-Flex setup has the potential to have NO CO2 production, and allows for the use of ANY fuel to power a generator.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

When GM was talking sh*t about hybrids, the media called them on it (Eventhough the media, two faced as they are, did the same thing for years)

Now that Toyota is doing the same thing with plug in hybrids (i.e. talking sh*t) where is the cynical tongue lashing of the media?!?!

[thegriffon]

For Frankfurt Volvo is unveiling a 100 mile battery-range plugin hybrid, similar to E-Flex but with a 1.6 L generator (Ford only has one engine as small as the Volt's 1.0 L, a SOHC brazilian flexfuel 4-cylinder, whereas GM has three plus two more in recent concepts that may hint at future engines).

[chevelle454]

How is an 8 mile range better than a 40 Mile range on all electric?

[thegriffon]

As Volvo points out eliminating the mechanical transmission is more efficient, cutting out a big drain on power to the wheels. While the Volvo concept has a longer range than GM's, a production version is not anticipated until 5–6 years later.

[siegen]

Interesting comparison. The Toyota can use the gasoline and/or the electric motor to drive the car, while the Volt can only use the electric motor (the gasoline motor is a generator only). At least that's what I get based on the diagrams. As long as the Volt's electric motor has enough power for all types of operation (uphill accelerating, etc) and the generator can keep the battery fully charged, I don't see this as a problem. In fact it seems like quite an advantage to me, specially if you replace the gas motor with a small diesel generator.

The Volt has a larger electric motor and battery than the Toyota, which sounds like a big advantage to me for electric only operation.

And only 8 miles on the Toyota? That won't get me to work and back electric only. And with the size of the electric motor, is it going to have enough power to go those 8 miles is any driving condition or will the gasoline motor be kicking in everytime I have to accelerate hard or uphill?

Btw. Next gen Honda FCX = 270 miles, all electric operation. With possibly to use solar or natural gas powered home-based hydrogen generator.

[Drew Dowdell]

The E-flex design is basically a railroad locomotive setup with a battery.

and Tesla Roadster does 200 miles to a charge with a smaller set of batteries.

[siegen]

and Tesla Roadster does 200 miles to a charge with a smaller set of batteries.

It's also an expensive lightweight 2-seater.

I want one!

[hyperv6]

Toyota is just spinning the truth as they are now behind in battery technology. GM did the same with the stage one Hybrids. GM tried to make them sound better then they really were.

I think Toyota fears GM as they are the one company that has the resouces to fight back. They also know if or when GM gets on track it can fight them toe to toe.

Ford and Chrysler are both is a wold of hurt just keeping their head above water. Honda is a strong company but still not a very large comapny like Toyota and GM. As for Nissian they are not really leading in anything right now and seem to be struggling a little.

[thegriffon]

The E-flex design is basically a railroad locomotive setup with a battery.

and Tesla Roadster does 200 miles to a charge with a smaller set of batteries.

Not quite. Railroad locomotives generally have electric motors connected to one or more gearsets in each driving truck, and until recently have not used batteries for storage or even regenerative braking (the motors generate current under braking but it has gone to high-resistance electric radiators in the roof). True hybrids running on battery power have been limited to a few new yard switchers, while the first "road" engine has only just begun trials. Since weight is an advantage (at least up to the track limit) for a locomotive, lead acid batteries remain the preferred choice.

[thegriffon]

If Toyota believes connecting the engine to the driving wheels mechanically is an advantage, why do so many of their hybrids have electric-only awd?

[RJB]

When GM was talking sh*t about hybrids, the media called them on it (Eventhough the media, two faced as they are, did the same thing for years)

Now that Toyota is doing the same thing with plug in hybrids (i.e. talking sh*t) where is the cynical tongue lashing of the media?!?!

Because Toyota can do no wrong, even if they maybe wrong. Toyota is just upset that the Volt is getting more media attention and the fact that it is superior and a far far better looking car than the Prius ever will be.

The range on the Volt is just preliminary figures, also, I bet by the time it does come to production the range on it will be expanded. That is just a fact on how swift technology is moving on these hybrids, and GM is ever improving this, they are working night and day on this stuff believe me!!

[bcs296]

2010 is 2-3 years away.

I think Toyota will do whatever it takes to adapt technology similar to E-Flex to the Prius by 2010.

And I think it's going to be a close race.

Edited September 15, 2007 by bcs296

[Drew Dowdell]

Not quite. Railroad locomotives generally have electric motors connected to one or more gearsets in each driving truck, and until recently have not used batteries for storage or even regenerative braking (the motors generate current under braking but it has gone to high-resistance electric radiators in the roof). True hybrids running on battery power have been limited to a few new yard switchers, while the first "road" engine has only just begun trials. Since weight is an advantage (at least up to the track limit) for a locomotive, lead acid batteries remain the preferred choice.

like I said.... railroad locomotive setup + a battery.....

[Dsuupr]

I think toyota is too far along on the next gen prius to make changes at this point. Even if GM beats toyota by only a year it would make a huge impact for the General Motors and the other Detroit auto makers. This could be the one product that gets people back to the GM showrooms.

Imagine how many people will show up at the Chevy & Saturn Dealership just to check out these vehicles with no intention of buying one.

The Volt alone could restart GMs mid-size & compact cars in the market place. Their timing is well planned. 2010 new compacts to come out at the same time as the Volt (hopefully Saturn version as well), plus a new mid-size sedan coming out again a year later. If they do what Lutz has said they are going to do, then they can tout the new Volt along with best in class gas mileage by their compact & mid-size sedans. I'm sure they will also have better hybirds in then new compacts & midsizers by the as well.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Dsuupr

[enzl]

Another case of Kool Aid drinking....

Let's be realistic:

GM has Zero true hybrids (ie Can run without an ICE) on the roads.

Toyota has, what, a million or so?

Noone has driven, outside of GM proving grounds, this new tech. It's due in 2010, so there's plenty of time for competitors (or somebody outside of the automotive realm) to come up with battery tech that solves the Lithium Ion cooling issue--or comes up with something else.

Right now, Tesla has delayed its Li-Ion battery powered roadster at least twice and demoted their CEO to get him back in the lab. Toyota, the current world leader in hybrid tech, claims the Li-Ion's aren't going to be ready for the next gen Prius.

As it sits, those two sources of info are more indicative of the future than GM's claims about cars that aren't on the road yet...

You guys will suspend disbelief on GM propaganda faster than anything I've seen. It's fascinating that for every microscopic inspection of Toyota's PR foibles, you guys completely ignore the obvious PR BS in A PRODUCT THAT DOESN'T EXIST !!!!!

(Oh, C&D called---the Camaro just won its first comparison test

[Camino LS6]

A product that doesn't exist?

Please.

Contracts say it exists. The design of the next gen Delta says it exists. Firm promises of production says it exists.

GM is betting the farm on this product, it will happen or GM will fold. It is that important.

It's real, it's coming, you can count on that.

You can also count on the Volt and E-flex changing the game.

The old saw that "if Toyota can't do it or hasn't done it, it can't be done" is pure BS.

Toyota has been caught with their pants down on this one.

And that pleases me no end.

[Drew Dowdell]

If diesel trucks were so good, Toyota would have one...... right?

[enzl]

A product that doesn't exist?

Please.

Contracts say it exists. The design of the next gen Delta says it exists. Firm promises of production says it exists.

GM is betting the farm on this product, it will happen or GM will fold. It is that important.

It's real, it's coming, you can count on that.

You can also count on the Volt and E-flex changing the game.

The old saw that "if Toyota can't do it or hasn't done it, it can't be done" is pure BS.

Toyota has been caught with their pants down on this one.

And that pleases me no end.

It's not that simple.

When I can go down to the local GM store and buy one, it exists...until then, it's a future product with even bolder claims than the average new GM vehicle that is 'better' than the competition.

Period.

It's not that Toyota is better, it's that they're already selling thousands of similar products, today.

as usual, when the argument is unwinable, C&G's leading ostriches change the focus.

There is no Volt yet...and the engineering involved is far from certain--there are NO Li-batteries currently commercially available in vehicles.

Period.

It's not that GM can't or won't do it, it's that they haven't, yet. I've been hearing about game changing product for years--All I can go on is track record, which, isn't good.

[Camino LS6]

It's not that simple.

When I can go down to the local GM store and buy one, it exists...until then, it's a future product with even bolder claims than the average new GM vehicle that is 'better' than the competition.

Period.

It's not that Toyota is better, it's that they're already selling thousands of similar products, today.

as usual, when the argument is unwinable, C&G's leading ostriches change the focus.

There is no Volt yet...and the engineering involved is far from certain--there are NO Li-batteries currently commercially available in vehicles.

Period.

It's not that GM can't or won't do it, it's that they haven't, yet. I've been hearing about game changing product for years--All I can go on is track record, which, isn't good.

It is that simple, it's do or die for GM on this project and they know it. Obviously, they know a great deal more than has been announced - or do you really think that the liquid cooling was decided upon this week? GM is publically confident because they know that they can make it happen or this would all be shrouded in secrecy.

Toyota is selling nothing like the Volt - and won't be for some time (if ever).

The ostriches are those who believe that the Prius is actually a sensible car when it little more than a PR snow job that a bunch of fools have fallen for.

The difference is that the Volt is fundamentally superior in concept and innovative in approach.

No they're not on lots yet, so what?

I don't see how anyone can doubt that they will be, GM has stuck its neck out way too far for this to be some sort of PR stunt.

To go by the "track record" while ignoring the significance of this tech is laughable at best.

[Robert Hall]

It's not that simple.

When I can go down to the local GM store and buy one, it exists...until then, it's a future product with even bolder claims than the average new GM vehicle that is 'better' than the competition.

Period.

True..until a product has shipped and is at the dealer where a consumer can buy it, it's just development talk...who knows what is really going on within GM, they may be on to something big, or it may just be smoke and mirrors.

[CARBIZ]

I was thinking along these same lines. Although I hate it when GM announced plans 3-4 years ahead (Camaro, SSR, anyone?), they are in a fight for their lives and are trying to steal some of the thunder away from Toyota. You can't blame them for that.

GM certainly must have learned somethign from the EV-1 program, and I suspect there is a lot more they aren't telling us about how far along the Volt is. The fact that Toyota and Honda are both ramping up their PR machines strikes me as proof of this. Toyotas spies must be getting a little panicked. GM has had a lot of partnerships with companies like Ballard and others, so I suspect (hope?) they have picked up a few tricks along the way.

And I, for one, will always bet on American ingenuity over Asian copy-cat tactics any day. The original ideas have always come from the West, while the East has only learned how to sell the copied products back to us at a cheaper price - and we are stupid enough to let them do it.

[PurdueGuy]

Going by the "track record", GM has a ton of experience with all the technology going into this car, except the new batteries (see EV1). The batteries are the only item that are still a bit of a wild card, and it is reasonable to wonder if they'll be ready in time. Even so, they could easily do an intro of the car with nickel-metal hydride batteries (successfully developed for the EV1... hmmm, sounds like GM experience in developing batteries in junction with suppliers?), and switch to lithium ion later.

[enzl]

Just remember, everything that's not here is the Next Best Thing.

You confuse my skepticism for ignorance.

I truly believe that conceptually, the Volt and its tech are the future-and a generation beyond Toyota's current hybrid product.

My (genuine) concern is that it will not be ready for the projected on sale date.

And the Battery Tech is everything in this program...saying everything's a go except the battery tech (which is what GM said at Volt's intro), is like saying I'd be a Major League pitcher except for my arm...

[CARBIZ]

One can only hope that if (and that is a big IF) GM has the technology licked already, they will keep their mouths shut and not give the competition the heads up! Let everyone scoff at their hubris - as long as the competition runs around in circles in the mean time.

One of the favorite themes running through contemporary Science Fiction are scenarios where First Contact creates a technological 'bounce'; that is, even though the other sentience tries to keep technology out of our hands, just KNOWING something can be done makes it happen so much faster.

[Drew Dowdell]

It's not that GM can't or won't do it, it's that they haven't, yet. I've been hearing about game changing product for years--All I can go on is track record, which, isn't good.

You want game changing product?

Direct injection engines

Roadsters that out-style anything in their class... and even some in the class above it <I hate the noses on the Z4 and SLK>

'08 CTS <though the '03 CTS was a game changer too>

2-mode hybrid

6-speed front, rear and all wheel drive transmissions..... that actually use all their gears... unlike Camry, Accord, Odyssey, or TL

20mpg in a full size SUV

More E85 vehicles than anyone else

Saturn Astra

Lambdas

Saturn Vue

Aura and Malibu that realistically give the CamCord a run for it's money... when was the last time there was even room for serious debate on that point?

Aveo <when is the last time GM had a top seller in anything below a midsizer?>

and that's just now....

we still have coming...

HCCI Engines

Volt

the new passenger car diesel

Blue-Devil

Zetas

T-E platform

Alpha

Epsilon II

[Drew Dowdell]

Just remember, everything that's not here is the Next Best Thing.

You confuse my skepticism for ignorance.

I truly believe that conceptually, the Volt and its tech are the future-and a generation beyond Toyota's current hybrid product.

My (genuine) concern is that it will not be ready for the projected on sale date.

And the Battery Tech is everything in this program...saying everything's a go except the battery tech (which is what GM said at Volt's intro), is like saying I'd be a Major League pitcher except for my arm...

The solution for the battery heat problem is ridiculously simple, I'm surprised it even took GM longer than 15 minutes to figure it out. The original Prius had vents in it's rear fenders to cool it's batteries. Why is it inconceivable that the Volt would require some sort of cooling mechanism also.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Just the fact that Toyota is downplaying the Volt technology years before it is released is proof enough for me.

[enzl]

You want game changing product?

Direct injection engines

Roadsters that out-style anything in their class... and even some in the class above it <I hate the noses on the Z4 and SLK>

'08 CTS <though the '03 CTS was a game changer too>

2-mode hybrid

6-speed front, rear and all wheel drive transmissions..... that actually use all their gears... unlike Camry, Accord, Odyssey, or TL

20mpg in a full size SUV

More E85 vehicles than anyone else

Saturn Astra

Lambdas

Saturn Vue

Aura and Malibu that realistically give the CamCord a run for it's money... when was the last time there was even room for serious debate on that point?

Aveo <when is the last time GM had a top seller in anything below a midsizer?>

and that's just now....

we still have coming...

HCCI Engines

Volt

the new passenger car diesel

Blue-Devil

Zetas

T-E platform

Alpha

Epsilon II

I can honestly say that none of that list are nearly as significant as the mass production of hybrid, practical vehicles. Some are even of dubious technical merit or real truth (as almost all tech mentioned was someone else's original idea).

When you can cite a real product or innovation that changes everything--Model T, Minivans, Mustang as product example---ABS, Dual Clutch Auto/Manuals, Clean Diesel----then I say, well the Volt is as good as here.

All I know is that not only is NO other major manufacturer announcing the Li-Ion tech for their next-gen autos---nor any tech companies coming forwad stating they've solved the problems. This isn't just matching the Camry--this is a paradigm-shifting technology that MUST work---where in recent history has GM successfully integrated any NEW, original tech, first?

[CARBIZ]

I can honestly say that none of that list are nearly as significant as the mass production of hybrid, practical vehicles. Some are even of dubious technical merit or real truth (as almost all tech mentioned was someone else's original idea).

When you can cite a real product or innovation that changes everything--Model T, Minivans, Mustang as product example---ABS, Dual Clutch Auto/Manuals, Clean Diesel----then I say, well the Volt is as good as here.

All I know is that not only is NO other major manufacturer announcing the Li-Ion tech for their next-gen autos---nor any tech companies coming forwad stating they've solved the problems. This isn't just matching the Camry--this is a paradigm-shifting technology that MUST work---where in recent history has GM successfully integrated any NEW, original tech, first?

but the truth is, there rarely is any such thing as a paradigm shift. The Model T was nothing original, it just put together a lot of techniques (such as standardized fittings and the assembly line process) that other manufacturers had pioneered. The Mustang just happened to be a better looking car, bigger hit and cheaper price than the earlier Corvair Monza; GM had been flirting with small 'pony' cars but Ford put it all together in one package and MARKETED it properly. Even the minivan was hardly revolutionary - again, Chrysler happened to be in the right place at the right time. VW (and even Toyota) had 'minivans' earlier, they were just hadn't hit a bulls-eye with the market yet.

So Pontiac came out with transistorized ignition in 1963. Big deal. It would be more than a decade before anyone learned how to mass-produce it cheaply and reliably. There are lots of 'firsts' out there that Detroit (and others) can be proud of, but often it isn't the true innovator that figures out how to make what they discovered work effectively.

The E-flex system will only be a paradigm shift if it truly is electric and no drive from an internal combustion motor - and even then only IF, it can run on battery power for most trips that the owner takes. Otherwise, it will just be another one of (many) interesting technologies on the horizon.

Let's just wait and see.

[Drew Dowdell]

I can honestly say that none of that list are nearly as significant as the mass production of hybrid, practical vehicles. Some are even of dubious technical merit or real truth (as almost all tech mentioned was someone else's original idea).

When you can cite a real product or innovation that changes everything--Model T, Minivans, Mustang as product example---ABS, Dual Clutch Auto/Manuals, Clean Diesel----then I say, well the Volt is as good as here.

All I know is that not only is NO other major manufacturer announcing the Li-Ion tech for their next-gen autos---nor any tech companies coming forwad stating they've solved the problems. This isn't just matching the Camry--this is a paradigm-shifting technology that MUST work---where in recent history has GM successfully integrated any NEW, original tech, first?

Onstar

Magnetic Ride Control <still the only?>

XM Radio <under Delphi>

XM Traffic Nav <tied with Acura>

Hydroforming

Plastic body panels

EV-1 <though you may not consider it successful or recent, customers who had them tried to prevent GM from taking them back> technological experience from this will end up in the Volt.

[enzl]

Onstar

Magnetic Ride Control <still the only?>

XM Radio <under Delphi>

XM Traffic Nav <tied with Acura>

Hydroforming

Plastic body panels

EV-1 <though you may not consider it successful or recent, customers who had them tried to prevent GM from taking them back> technological experience from this will end up in the Volt.

Onstar--nope--a good GPS/Navi with realtime XM traffic feeds is superior to oral instruction

MRC-Maybe---unfortunately, only highline manufacturers have adopted it and it hasn't trickled down to other GM products

XM-wasn't GM's idea

XM traffic--if it was GM's idea, then they shot OnStar in the foot with it

Hydroforming--um, what?

Plastic Body panels---did u get the memo, Saturn just abandoned these!

EV1-DEAD

I'll repeat: GM HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO TAKE A NEW TECHNOLOGY AND SUCCESSFULLY APPLY IT TO A MASS PRODUCED MODEL IN DECADES.

WHAT HONESTLY MAKES YOU FEEL THEY CAN DO SO WITH THE VOLT, ALL OF THE SUDDEN?

While you may have faith they can, that doesn't mean that there's a certainty of it. Past performance generally indicates future results...

[Z-06]

I'll repeat: TOY NEVER HAS BEEN ABLE TO TAKE A NEW TECHNOLOGY AND SUCCESSFULLY APPLY IT TO A MASS PRODUCED MODEL IN ITS EXISTENCE.

WHAT HONESTLY MADE PEOPLE FEEL THEY COULD DO SO WITH THE PRIUS, ALL OF THE SUDDEN?

FIXED

[Drew Dowdell]

Onstar--nope--a good GPS/Navi with realtime XM traffic feeds is superior to oral instruction

MRC-Maybe---unfortunately, only highline manufacturers have adopted it and it hasn't trickled down to other GM products

XM-wasn't GM's idea

XM traffic--if it was GM's idea, then they shot OnStar in the foot with it

Hydroforming--um, what?

Plastic Body panels---did u get the memo, Saturn just abandoned these!

EV1-DEAD

I'll repeat: GM HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO TAKE A NEW TECHNOLOGY AND SUCCESSFULLY APPLY IT TO A MASS PRODUCED MODEL IN DECADES.

WHAT HONESTLY MAKES YOU FEEL THEY CAN DO SO WITH THE VOLT, ALL OF THE SUDDEN?

While you may have faith they can, that doesn't mean that there's a certainty of it. Past performance generally indicates future results...

just because technology has been surpassed, doesn't mean it failed. OnStar, in it's day, was the best you could get and was also widely adopted. It is also shortsighted of you to think that Onstar is only for directions. Onboard diagnostics, airbag notification, Concierge services, roadside assistance, can your TomTom do that?

XM was thought up by Delphi... owned by GM.... initially deployed in GM Vehicles.

Just because the market has since moved on from plastic body panels, doesn't mean they weren't a success. Saturn didn't get their high loyalty rating on the dealership experience alone. There are many people who, once they bought a Saturn, only wanted another Saturn because of the plastic panels.

Magnetic Ride control is an expensive system. Just because it's not cheap doesn't mean it's not a success. Is the Northstar not a success since it's never been in a vehicle less than $30,000?

[Flybrian]

I'll repeat: GM HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO TAKE A NEW TECHNOLOGY AND SUCCESSFULLY APPLY IT TO A MASS PRODUCED MODEL IN DECADES.

Who has?

Serious question.

What OEM-developed innovation has shook the automotive community in the past 30 years? 40? 50?

Who gets the credit for ABS? Mercedes who first made it available, BMW who first made it standard, or GM for proliferating it throughout its lineup at all price levels?

Your criteria is so narrow that no one has done anything new since the Hydromatic in the 1940s.

What exactly had Toyota innovated prior to the Synergy Drive? Nothing. Toyota had brought absolutely no revolutionary innovation to the global automotive community over the entire course of its 50+ year history until several years ago. Even now, the 'success' of hybrid techonology is driven by its acceptance in one market by virtually one vehicle. Europeans haven't bitten the bullet and Japanese themselves likely see no value in a technology that increase mileage by a paltry amount over their already super efficient supersmall minicars.

And also tell me - if you were writing this in 1999, what manufacturer would you have waged on to come out with successful, functioning, marketable hybrid technology first? Toyota, who was reeling from the failure of its RAV EVs or Honda who has also been engineering efficient powertrains and stood on the precipice of introducting a small commuter hybrid that achieved 60+mpg?

[siegen]

You can also count on the Volt and E-flex changing the game.

How can anyone count on that? You can't count on anything in the automotive world until it has already happened.

[enzl]

Who has?

Serious question.

What OEM-developed innovation has shook the automotive community in the past 30 years? 40? 50?

Who gets the credit for ABS? Mercedes who first made it available, BMW who first made it standard, or GM for proliferating it throughout its lineup at all price levels?

Your criteria is so narrow that no one has done anything new since the Hydromatic in the 1940s.

What exactly had Toyota innovated prior to the Synergy Drive? Nothing. Toyota had brought absolutely no revolutionary innovation to the global automotive community over the entire course of its 50+ year history until several years ago. Even now, the 'success' of hybrid techonology is driven by its acceptance in one market by virtually one vehicle. Europeans haven't bitten the bullet and Japanese themselves likely see no value in a technology that increase mileage by a paltry amount over their already super efficient supersmall minicars.

And also tell me - if you were writing this in 1999, what manufacturer would you have waged on to come out with successful, functioning, marketable hybrid technology first? Toyota, who was reeling from the failure of its RAV EVs or Honda who has also been engineering efficient powertrains and stood on the precipice of introducting a small commuter hybrid that achieved 60+mpg?

The Hybrid is a technical achievement, whether truly as good as hyped isn't the issue.

I'd argue that clean diesel, the Dual-Clutch tranny, Direct injection, the modern CVT, Stop-start alternators, Stability Control, ABS are all true innovations...the only innovation GM created that really works is the Magnetic Fluid suspension tech--which has not seen widespread use-yet.

If I've defined the category too narrowly, than I'm all ears to here what fantastic, class leading stuff you feel GM has presented in the last 30 years---the answer, if not zero, is close to it.

GM has barely managed to get their current, safe, boring product to industry quality levels or above---I just don't believe that the Volt will be ready by 2010 and furthermore, I don't think they'll be able to alter the risk-averse attitude to make such a leap without huge issues...

Just like the Cossie engines, just like V8-6-4, just like the Saturn plastics, just like the EV-1, just like the current marketing schemes, I find the corporate ADD to much ingrained in the system to believe that an automotive equivalent of the Lunar Landing is just around the corner.

I hope I'm wrong.

Edited September 17, 2007 by enzl

[91z4me]

When you can cite a real product or innovation that changes everything then I say, well the Volt is as good as here.

How about the Airbag?

GM developed the technology and not only put it into production but also FREELY gave all its data for Airbag technology to the WORLD! Name a single production car today, except that a few RARE exotic models, that doesn't have an Airbag.

Now if Toyota REALLY wanted to be as game changing as you say they are then they would not only have developed the Synerdrive technology, but they would have distributed the data and patents freely to the world.

[Flybrian]

I'd argue that clean diesel, the Dual-Clutch tranny, Direct injection, the modern CVT, Stop-start alternators, Stability Control, ABS are all true innovations...the only innovation GM created that really works is the Magnetic Fluid suspension tech--which has not seen widespread use-yet.

If I've defined the category too narrowly, than I'm all ears to here what fantastic, class leading stuff you feel GM has presented in the last 30 years---the answer, if not zero, is close to it.

See, the problem with your argument is that you rhetorically ask what has GM done for me lately, yet what has any one company done for anyone lately? All of the above innovations have come from industry suppliers who worked with OEMs to foster development and implementation. Very rarely today does one company bring forth such an innovation by themselves at once without other manufacturers also producing similar innovations. Your statement infers that GM hasn't done jack &#036;h&#33;, yet everyone else has. Who is everyone else exactly? Please name names. Again with my ABS argument - who gets credit, Mercedes for making it first available, BMW for first standardizing it, or GM for making it affordable?

You write off the EV1 as a failure so easily that I don't think you fully grasp what an achievement it was. They didn't throw two dozen Duralasts in the bed of a Ranger; they bult from the ground up a fully electric car that was stylish, efficient, quiet, reliable, and practical for daily usage. They improved on it shortly after with NiCad batteries. They pioneered inductive charging in something larger than a Schick razor with MagnaCharge, making it safe to recharge a car in any weather. The car ended up being so symbolic and pioneering that it was to focus of a major motion picture chronicalling the disdain, anger, and frustration of thousands and thousands of people who couldn't own one for good. This isn't even going into the diesel parallel hybrid, CNG, and fuel cell prototypes.

Just because a technology doesn't take with the public or that some echelons of management is so scatterbrained and shortsighted to see into the future doesn't mean it wasn't "fantastic" or an "innovation."

*Also, with the airbag thing 91z mentioned, I'm not sure of the history on that, but General Motors pioneered the modern, accurate, responsive crash test dummy with the Hybrid I in 1971 and freely gave away that technology to everyone. But, that's 6 years outside of your artificial threshold, so it doesn't matter anyway.

[PurdueGuy]

Why does Toyota get so much credit for the Prius, anyway? Little, if any, of the technology was invented by them. They weren't first to market. They simply packaged it & marketed it better, and it took off. I'm not saying they should get no credit, but to treat 'yota as if they changed everything all by themselves is stupid. To poo-poo the EV1 because it wasn't mass produced and is now gone is dumb. Take away the technology that was developed for the EV1 from the Prius, and it would be nothing (namely: battery tech and regenerative braking).