All kidding aside

[I hope GMRULES again]

I think it should be the Chevy El Camino for sure ,anything else would be foolish. The name is already well known and could draw off of its past success. I fear it will be called the G9 or G10.

[ocnblu]

I like to think of the Ute as a professional grade, sporty multipurpose vehicle, sort of like the original Syclone (which was a short-run, special production vehicle as well). GM has said no more trucks for Pontiac, why dilute that message now? Badging it a GMC when it will be necessarily low volume due to Holden's capacity is not a bad thing, imo. Yes sirs, I was adamant about NOT wanting the Chinese Park Avenue sold here alongside the G8, but they are both sedans... G8 and Ute are two different bodystyles... this could work as a GMC... let's face it... anything imported from Australia will necessarily be low volume. We will have to wait for US Zeta production to ramp up before we happily see each division get all the versions we want except Opel/Saturn. Can't we think of it as testing the waters with a GMC-badged, imported version of the Ute before GMNA commits to an Impala-based Chevrolet El Camino? To those who bought, and loved, their GTOs... did you really care that it was actually a Holden in thin disguise? This thing will most likely be temporary until GMNA Zeta production comes online anyway. This is a snazzy vehicle, but as an import, I see a limited production run for US versions. Better to have GMC sell this thing for a couple of years until a REAL, US-designed Chevrolet El Camino can be built.

[Camino LS6]

Actually, I'd rather see them in short supply or sold out each year but wearing a Chevy badge.

[z28luvr01]

What is the BIG fricken deal?????

As a past owner of a GMC Sprint SP with an original 402 Big block I feel I can make a rational observation.

The only differance between my Sprint SP and the El Camino want the stinking emblems! Even the factory rallys that came on it were Chevy.

I loved my car and thought no less and no more of it being a GMC because it was the same stink'in car.

If GM wants to make this a GMC I say go for it as GMC and Pontiac can use all the new product they can get.

I even considered that since this truck will be a rebadged Holden that it would fit with the G8 as a GMC much better than ploping it in Chevys line up. The only advantage of it being a Chevy was the name only.

The cold truth is if you like the this vehicle and realy cared about the vehicle you would really not care what GM calls it or what dealer sells it. If they would bring it back as an Oldsmobile I would be a willing buyer.

I have been driving ZQ8 S series trucks as it is as close as I can come to a Ute as I can get in this country. I would like to hope there are enough buyers to justify bringing this vehicle is but if not better to try it at GMC vs Chevy as GMC can absorb a failure better and needs a secsess even more.

I say if you don't like the name if it is a GMC just call Year one and buy your own emblems. If your not going to buy this car just because it is a GMC and not a Chevy you didn't want one that bad to begin with.

What is more important the Vehicle or the name? To me the Vehicle is what ai want and they can call it what ever they like.

Besides as a GMC a better chance a busniess case could be made to bring it here as a limited import in a specialized dealer adn division.

Hard choices have to be made and not all are going to be the way you want them. Just be glad they can bring this vehicle in.

I don't think this uproar has anything to do with the Ute itself. Once I get over the stupidity of GM's decision, I could probably convince myself to get one since it's definitely the type of vehicle I could use. My stupidity comment comes from the fact that GM clearly took the more difficult road in deciding not to bring it here as an El Camino. Consider:

1) An El Camino can practically sell itself. As XP715 said, people commonly refer to any car-based pickup as an El Camino. People just know what it is. Marketing it as a Caballero or a G8 will be infinitely more difficult.

2) The Chevy front fascia already exists. Holden is slapping it on Commodores before sending them to the Middle East.

3) Does the Ute really fit in with GMC's or Pontiac's mission statement? I don't think so. Holden is billing the new Ute as a lifestyle vehicle as opposed to a workhorse, so I don't quite think it fits the "Professional Grade" mold. I suppose a lifestyle vehicle fits in with a youth-oriented Pontiac, but I think a lineup of cars (and the VE wagon) better suits the brand's mission.

[ocnblu]

The Chevrolet El Camino was always a pickup version of a Chevrolet sedan. What Chevrolet sedan will an Aussie-built "Chevy El Camino" be based on? It's a fish out of water as a Chevrolet, wearing this sheetmetal. GMC Syclone, all the way, baby.

[hyperv6]

Why the venom?

This, by rights , should be an El Camino and sold as a Chevrolet. If that cannot be, then that's a shame no matter the reason behind it. I would love to have that SP of yours, because it is a very,very, rare car. Which leads me to my main objection to GMC getting this one.

During the years when both GMC and Chevy built these, the GMC couldn't even sell 10% of the Chevy numbers consitently. If the Ute goes to GMC now, I am afraid that it will fail dismally and, as a side-effect remove any possibility that Chevy will ever get an El Camino again. I can't stand that possibilty. So, yes, I'm a bit ticked-off that GM would even consider the idea. I have other objections to GMC getting it, but this one point is all I really need to give the notion the thumbs down.

I am , however, warming to the idea of this being a Pontiac G8 variant.

But it should still be a 50th anniversary Chevrolet El Camino. That's the right thing to do whether or not GM does it.

Will I buy a Pontiac or GMC version?

Maybe.

But I was ready to order the Chevy.

And, I don't feel the need to be grateful to GM for getting things almost right. Especially when completely right is within such easy reach and they've had most of a decade to plan for it.

Not so much venom as just frustration that GM is finally giving us a great car we have begged for and a few are acting repulsed that it has an emblem not of their choice when it is the same car regardless of the emblem.

The small fact you leave off of the 10% is there were so many fewer GMC dealers vs the Chevy store on every corner and the fact GMC really never promoted these cars to start.

This argument is every bit as bad as the Z28 vs SS getting top billing.

GM can not please everyone and have to make the hard choice to do what is best for GM. In other words we are not always going to get everything we wish for and for a good reason.

The fact Pontiac and GMC dealers are product starved, the fact the G8 and Holden Ute share a common bond, the fact GMC it trying to seperate it's self from Chevy after years of many asking GM to do so. All of this adds up to a deal where a limited specialty car at a dealer that is going to specialize in niche cars would benifit by this car as would the car it's self not getting lost in a dealer with so many other models already offered.

It just seem silly to sell a car that looks like a Pontiac in a Chevy dealer. IF they would rebody the nose which they won't I could see Chevy getting it.

I can understand your being upset on not getting your name of choice and that is ok but to diss the car and say you would not buy because of a simple emblem says to me you really don't want one bad enough. There has never been a perfect car made and there is always something you want changed. But if a name is all that would prevent you from buying?? I think we all have made bigger consessions than just a name on cars we already have owned.

Does a simple piece of plastic really change this car that much? Does it run and perform different? Does it other than a few emblems look different? Does the load capacity change?

This is like turning down a good piece of cake because the frosting is brown and not white while the cake looks and taste the same. If you don't like the frosting color scrape it off.

At this point the Camino has been gone so long you have a whole generation of new buyers who really know little about them anyway and many other who just plain forgot them. It is time to let go of the past as things have to change to improve GM's future.

GMC will more than likely give this car more promotion than Chevy would as it is more important to them than it is at Chevy with money already going to the Camaro, HHR, Malibu, New RWD Impala, and other high volume cars that will bring in more money than a limited pick up.

I see Chevy treating this car no better than the SSR. Big a launch and lost from sight after. GMC is a niche marketing unit perfect to keep and let a limited import thrive along with a sister sedan in a shared divison. Also price may also be a factor where importing this car in limited numbers may move this higher than a Chevy price ranged car. That would not be good to have a Camino for 35K next to a Camaro that is 28K. many would forgo the bed at that price in a Chevy store. This is a limited market car and need to be treated as such that other than the Vette is not Chevys market.

Lord knows the Tahoe SS and Silverado SS are hard sells at the higher priceses they see as was the SSR. Now the HHR at the price it is goes like hot cakes. Chevy is a value leader for a reason. For a Camaino to sell at Chevy it wouldf have to be under 30K and the closer to 25K the better. I just don't see that happening unless it is a V6 stripper and I don't expect many stippers to make the boat.

In buisness it's like gambling on football, you have to bet with your head and not your heart if you want the odds in your favor.

I think "Professional Grade" fits this car well as it does Denali. This is not a beater truck kind of car anymore. It is more a gentalmens pick up. GMC is a work truck only anymore and many models are near Cadilacs.

Sorry but I am frustrated! It is not aimed at anyone and I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers.

The car is available to those who want it and they will know where to get it. This is not a car for everyone. Never has nor will ever be.

Edited August 28, 2007 by hyperv6

[K.C.]

I like to think of the Ute as a professional grade, sporty multipurpose vehicle, sort of like the original Syclone (which was a short-run, special production vehicle as well). GM has said no more trucks for Pontiac, why dilute that message now? Badging it a GMC when it will be necessarily low volume due to Holden's capacity is not a bad thing, imo. Yes sirs, I was adamant about NOT wanting the Chinese Park Avenue sold here alongside the G8, but they are both sedans... G8 and Ute are two different bodystyles... this could work as a GMC... let's face it... anything imported from Australia will necessarily be low volume. We will have to wait for US Zeta production to ramp up before we happily see each division get all the versions we want except Opel/Saturn. Can't we think of it as testing the waters with a GMC-badged, imported version of the Ute before GMNA commits to an Impala-based Chevrolet El Camino? To those who bought, and loved, their GTOs... did you really care that it was actually a Holden in thin disguise? This thing will most likely be temporary until GMNA Zeta production comes online anyway. This is a snazzy vehicle, but as an import, I see a limited production run for US versions. Better to have GMC sell this thing for a couple of years until a REAL, US-designed Chevrolet El Camino can be built.

[Camino LS6]

Not so much venom as just frustration that GM is finally giving us a great car we have begged for and a few are acting repulsed that it has an emblem not of their choice when it is the same car regardless of the emblem.

The small fact you leave off of the 10% is there were so many fewer GMC dealers vs the Chevy store on every corner and the fact GMC really never promoted these cars to start.

This argument is every bit as bad as the Z28 vs SS getting top billing.

GM can not please everyone and have to make the hard choice to do what is best for GM. In other words we are not always going to get everything we wish for and for a good reason.

The fact Pontiac and GMC dealers are product starved, the fact the G8 and Holden Ute share a common bond, the fact GMC it trying to seperate it's self from Chevy after years of many asking GM to do so. All of this adds up to a deal where a limited specialty car at a dealer that is going to specialize in niche cars would benifit by this car as would the car it's self not getting lost in a dealer with so many other models already offered.

It just seem silly to sell a car that looks like a Pontiac in a Chevy dealer. IF they would rebody the nose which they won't I could see Chevy getting it.

I can understand your being upset on not getting your name of choice and that is ok but to diss the car and say you would not buy because of a simple emblem says to me you really don't want one bad enough. There has never been a perfect car made and there is always something you want changed. But if a name is all that would prevent you from buying?? I think we all have made bigger consessions than just a name on cars we already have owned.

Does a simple piece of plastic really change this car that much? Does it run and perform different? Does it other than a few emblems look different? Does the load capacity change?

This is like turning down a good piece of cake because the frosting is brown and not white while the cake looks and taste the same. If you don't like the frosting color scrape it off.

At this point the Camino has been gone so long you have a whole generation of new buyers who really know little about them anyway and many other who just plain forgot them. It is time to let go of the past as things have to change to improve GM's future.

GMC will more than likely give this car more promotion than Chevy would as it is more important to them than it is at Chevy with money already going to the Camaro, HHR, Malibu, New RWD Impala, and other high volume cars that will bring in more money than a limited pick up.

I see Chevy treating this car no better than the SSR. Big a launch and lost from sight after. GMC is a niche marketing unit perfect to keep and let a limited import thrive along with a sister sedan in a shared divison. Also price may also be a factor where importing this car in limited numbers may move this higher than a Chevy price ranged car. That would not be good to have a Camino for 35K next to a Camaro that is 28K. many would forgo the bed at that price in a Chevy store. This is a limited market car and need to be treated as such that other than the Vette is not Chevys market.

Lord knows the Tahoe SS and Silverado SS are hard sells at the higher priceses they see as was the SSR. Now the HHR at the price it is goes like hot cakes. Chevy is a value leader for a reason. For a Camaino to sell at Chevy it wouldf have to be under 30K and the closer to 25K the better. I just don't see that happening unless it is a V6 stripper and I don't expect many stippers to make the boat.

In buisness it's like gambling on football, you have to bet with your head and not your heart if you want the odds in your favor.

I think "Professional Grade" fits this car well as it does Denali. This is not a beater truck kind of car anymore. It is more a gentalmens pick up. GMC is a work truck only anymore and many models are near Cadilacs.

Sorry but I am frustrated! It is not aimed at anyone and I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers.

The car is available to those who want it and they will know where to get it. This is not a car for everyone. Never has nor will ever be.

Very well-reasoned, but I disagree entirely with this assessment and approach. I've been doing a bit of digging and it is becoming clear to me that a misguided sense of "caution" is driving this decision.

Leave it to GM to snatch a failure from the teeth of a success.

I would like to give you a point-by-point reponse later when time permits as your last post deserves that.

For now, a few quick points.

- My buying decision will not be based simply upon a badge, more on this later.

- This is a vastly different issue from the Camaro SS vs, Z/28 debate!

- The current GMC styling looks like crap on this vehicle.

More later.

[Camino LS6]

Not so much venom as just frustration that GM is finally giving us a great car we have begged for and a few are acting repulsed that it has an emblem not of their choice when it is the same car regardless of the emblem.

If it were the right choice for the product, there would be less objection. A choice that generates "repulsion" among those with an affinity for the product is obviously the wrong one to make. To badge this as a GMC or Pontiac gives it an automatic, and unnecessary handicap. GM is considering the most expensive option with the least potential return on investment when choosing a GMC badge.

The small fact you leave off of the 10% is there were so many fewer GMC dealers vs the Chevy store on every corner and the fact GMC really never promoted these cars to start.

And that is still true to a lesser degree. Promotion would be nil.

This argument is every bit as bad as the Z28 vs SS getting top billing.

Not even close. If Camaro was set to return as a Pontiac, then it would be the same argument. An El Camino is a Chevy, and this new product will be an El Camino in the minds of the public no matter what badge it is given. The name El Camino has become the default term for any vehicle of this nature much as Band-Aid and Kleenex are used no matter the brand of adhesive strip or facial tissue. GM will be pissing in the wind if they attempt another nameplate for the US version of the Ute.

GM can not please everyone and have to make the hard choice to do what is best for GM. In other words we are not always going to get everything we wish for and for a good reason.

If there were a good reason, things might be different. Making it part of a G8 Family is almost a good enough reason - but not quite

The fact Pontiac and GMC dealers are product starved, the fact the G8 and Holden Ute share a common bond, the fact GMC it trying to seperate it's self from Chevy after years of many asking GM to do so. All of this adds up to a deal where a limited specialty car at a dealer that is going to specialize in niche cars would benifit by this car as would the car it's self not getting lost in a dealer with so many other models already offered.

As a Pontiac, it won't get lost - that much I can agree with. As a GMC - not so much. It will be ignored as a GMC, it just doesn't fit with the rest of the lineup. As a Chevy, it will sell without much promotion or dealer effort. Like the Corvette, El Camino has always drawn its own crowd without much help.

It just seem silly to sell a car that looks like a Pontiac in a Chevy dealer. IF they would rebody the nose which they won't I could see Chevy getting it.

I can understand your being upset on not getting your name of choice and that is ok but to diss the car and say you would not buy because of a simple emblem says to me you really don't want one bad enough. There has never been a perfect car made and there is always something you want changed. But if a name is all that would prevent you from buying?? I think we all have made bigger consessions than just a name on cars we already have owned.

Wow! just Wow! You couldn't be any more off-base with this paragraph. The Chevy nose already exists for ME Holden exports. Admittedly, it isn't much differentiated from the Holden nose, but it is different from the Pontiac version. I have not said that I won't buy should GM make the mistake of using a GMC or Pontiac badge. I think everyone here knows that I am excited by this product above all others, and that for me, nothing satisfies my automotive cravings more. A Chevy version of the Ute is the way to prepare for an Oshawa-built Chevy version with GMNA zeta styling. Use of any other brand is worse than a distraction, it imperils the future of the El Camino nameplate. The way I see it is that GM has one chance to get this right, and "testing the waters " with another nameplate is beyond stupid.

Imagine this scenario. In 2009 The new Camaro and the new El Camino are released side-by-side to a flood of free publicity. GM cashes in on the 50th anniversary of the El Camino and sells every one Holden can supply. As the GMNA zeta sedan comes on-line, production is moved to Oshawa giving the El Camino an early refresh with a GMNA-designed look which debuts to an already established customer base. The alternative is a GMC or Pontiac with a short-lived, niche-only, curiosity that cost GM quite a bit more to bring to market, sold less, and doomed the GMNA version before it could be created.

I am thinking of the long term success of the product here, not merely my own emotional attachment to the El Camino.

Does a simple piece of plastic really change this car that much? Does it run and perform different? Does it other than a few emblems look different? Does the load capacity change?

This is like turning down a good piece of cake because the frosting is brown and not white while the cake looks and taste the same. If you don't like the frosting color scrape it off.

At this point the Camino has been gone so long you have a whole generation of new buyers who really know little about them anyway and many other who just plain forgot them. It is time to let go of the past as things have to change to improve GM's future.

GMC will more than likely give this car more promotion than Chevy would as it is more important to them than it is at Chevy with money already going to the Camaro, HHR, Malibu, New RWD Impala, and other high volume cars that will bring in more money than a limited pick up.

I see Chevy treating this car no better than the SSR. Big a launch and lost from sight after. GMC is a niche marketing unit perfect to keep and let a limited import thrive along with a sister sedan in a shared divison. Also price may also be a factor where importing this car in limited numbers may move this higher than a Chevy price ranged car. That would not be good to have a Camino for 35K next to a Camaro that is 28K. many would forgo the bed at that price in a Chevy store. This is a limited market car and need to be treated as such that other than the Vette is not Chevys market.

Lord knows the Tahoe SS and Silverado SS are hard sells at the higher priceses they see as was the SSR. Now the HHR at the price it is goes like hot cakes. Chevy is a value leader for a reason. For a Camaino to sell at Chevy it wouldf have to be under 30K and the closer to 25K the better. I just don't see that happening unless it is a V6 stripper and I don't expect many stippers to make the boat.

In buisness it's like gambling on football, you have to bet with your head and not your heart if you want the odds in your favor.

I think "Professional Grade" fits this car well as it does Denali. This is not a beater truck kind of car anymore. It is more a gentalmens pick up. GMC is a work truck only anymore and many models are near Cadilacs.

Sorry but I am frustrated! It is not aimed at anyone and I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers.

The car is available to those who want it and they will know where to get it. This is not a car for everyone. Never has nor will ever be

The only part of this section I can agree with is the last 2 sentences, and even then I would respond that quite a few more 'someones' will buy the Chevy no matter the level of promotion

The only smart move here is the obvious one: Chevy El Camino.

[Sixty8panther]

Some of the stuff in this thread is just silly!

If the PT cruiser is officialy a truck, then this is a g-d dam

Be still my heart, that's a TRUCK! I love classic Peterbilts.

[ToniCipriani]

Chevy or GMC, but definitely not Pontiac. It just looks, um... weird in the lineup.

[cletus8269]

i just had and idea, an idea so smart my head would explode if i even began to know what i was talking about.

if it goes to gmc maybe they could call it the canyon and drop the colorado twin. that gets gmc some individuality and then... wait for it... gmc can get the crewman over here too and you got a canyon crew.

does that sound logical at all to anyone?

Edited August 28, 2007 by cletus8269

[Camino LS6]

i just had and idea, an idea so smart my head would explode if i even began to know what i was talking about.

if it goes to gmc maybe they could call it the canyon and drop the colorado twin. that gets gmc some individuality and then... wait for it... gmc can get the crewman over here too and you got a canyon crew.

does that sound logical at all to anyone?

A crew cab, especially one with AWD, makes complete sense for GMC. The standard cab, performance version does not.

EDIT: It would also be a natural for the Denali treatment.

[K.C.]

I agree Camino. Chevrolet should get both the regular cab and Crewman in base, midlevel, and sporty SS guise, with rear wheel drive and AWD. GMC should get rear wheel drive and all wheel drive Crewman models only, with Denali treatment at the high end and at the low end SLE trim. Please name is something other than Cabellero as well.

Edited August 28, 2007 by K.C.

[Camino LS6]

Imagine a Denali trimmed crew cab with AWD (higher ride height and discrete fender flares) and an Avalanche-style midgate.

Now thats a GMC!

Other versions belong elsewhere.

[Sixty8panther]

I agree Camino. Chevrolet should get both the regular cab and Crewman in base, midlevel, and sporty SS guise, with rear wheel drive and AWD. GMC should get rear wheel drive and all wheel drive Crewman models only, with Denali treatment at the high end and at the low end SLE trim. Please name is something other than Cabellero as well.

Recipe for Success.

As far as the GMC's name I agree.... Cabalero is not the right choice.

How about "Rio Grande" then you can park it next to a Canyon.

[Camino LS6]

Well, my digging has paid off - sort of.

It's coming

It's not a Chevy El Camino

Any future El Camino depends on its success

I hope for the best and will likely buy one, to trade-in when the El Camino does arrive.

No more postable details at this time.

[K.C.]

Imagine a Denali trimmed crew cab with AWD (higher ride height and disctrete fender flares) and an Avalanche-style midgate.

Now thats a GMC!

Other versions belong elsewhere.

==================================================================================

Stop it Camino, you are making me yearn.

[Camino LS6]

==================================================================================

Stop it Camino, you are making me yearn.

Welcome to the club.

[K.C.]

There's a Def Leppard song in my head

Love BITES!

[Camino LS6]

Well, the last 48 hrs. or so have certainly worn me out.

[hyperv6]

Well, the last 48 hrs. or so have certainly worn me out.

Camino, I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

But I do agree this should not be a Pontiac.

Take a short rest.

Oh Camino, I will see Scott S in about 2 weeks I will quize him on this as see what I can find out.

[Camino LS6]

I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

But I do agree this should not be a Pontiac.

Well hyper, we have agreed on so much in the past that I guess it was about time we didn't. :AH-HA_wink:

Oh, and my second choice is Pontiac.

But since you are in the GMC camp, have you read the suggestions above?

[ocnblu]

So, what GM will do is import this as a GMC to test the market. If it sells well enough, it will more likely lead to a GMNA designed Chevrolet El Camino. Isn't that what I said, in a nutshell? It honestly sounds like a good plan. If the vehicle bombs, better to bomb as the lesser-known GMC sedan pickup than the premier sedan pickup... El Camino.

Just buy one! You may secure the future of the real El Camino!

[Camino LS6]

So, what GM will do is import this as a GMC to test the market. If it sells well enough, it will more likely lead to a GMNA designed Chevrolet El Camino. Isn't that what I said, in a nutshell? It honestly sounds like a good plan. If the vehicle bombs, better to bomb as the lesser-known GMC sedan pickup than the premier sedan pickup... El Camino.

Just buy one! You may secure the future of the real El Camino!

I'll make that decision once I get all of the details and see the execution. Also, you assume that it will be a GMC which may not be the case.

I still see it as a bad decision to not make it an El Camino from the start.

[Camino LS6]

Oh Camino, I will see Scott S in about 2 weeks I will quize him on this as see what I can find out.

Very cool!

Tell him I said hello.

Oh, and I think I know what he will tell you when you ask. :AH-HA_wink:

[Sixty8panther]

WTF?

This is ratarded.

Here's a freekin' idea:

Instead of making the Camaro how about we make a Zeta Buick version instead to

test the maket for a 2-door hardtop muscle car with a V8 and manual trans. We'll

call it a Special Ed. (short for Special Edition) and it will have all the performance of

the Camaro and similar looks... BUT if it does not sell well then that means the 5th

gen. Camaro is doomed and we'll just forget the whole thing.

Makes perfect sense, right?

[Camino LS6]

WTF?

This is ratarded.

Here's a freekin' idea:

Instead of making the Camaro how about we make a Zeta Buick version instead to

test the maket for a 2-door hardtop muscle car with a V8 and manual trans. We'll

call it a Special Ed. (short for Special Edition) and it will have all the performance of

the Camaro and similar looks... BUT if it does not sell well then that means the 5th

gen. Camaro is doomed and we'll just forget the whole thing.

Makes perfect sense, right?

That sums up my worries,68.

But that is exactly what GM is going to do.

[Camino LS6]

Just because:

[BigPontiac]

Just because:

Why did you chop a Chevy nose onto the 2009 Pontiac Torrent??

[Camino LS6]

That's Dodgefan's chop from the recent design comp.

Torrent

[K.C.]

:wub:

[K.C.]

Torrent (n) - combined word originally coming from the phrase "to rent"

[Camino LS6]

Yeah, I like it too.

[Duncan]

A little late to the party, I know, and I don't have the benefit of being that well-known on this board either. However, I've done my share of backseat automotive marketing over the past few years on the net, and I've gotten pretty good at analyzing this stuff.

That said, I'm in the GMC camp on this one. There are several reasons why, and I think it makes a good business case. (NOTE TO CHEVY FANS: Keep reading, you'll see...)

1) GMC gets actual marketing money these days. Back when the Sprint and Caballero were new, they did not get the same attention and the sales figures show it. (It also didn't help that the Sprint/Caballero had absolutely NO distinction from their better-known counterparts over at Chevy, save for the occasional ugly stripe package.) I will grant you that, simply by the realities of their smaller dealer network, a GMC version will not be as visible as a Chevy, but we're all agreed anyway that this is a niche vehicle from the start.

2) GMC desperately needs a halo vehicle. Saturn's got one (the Sky), Pontiac's got one (the Solstice), Cadillac's got two (the XLR and the Escalade), Chevy will have two (the Corvette and the Camaro), and I would argue that Buick now has one too (the Enclave, which seems to be popping up all over the place lately). GMC has...a whole mess of Denali models. Give GMC the Ute and you have the basis for an easy new marketing message: "Redefining Professional Grade." If a sporty sedan-pickup with available AWD doesn't redefine GMC, I'm not sure what else would.

3) Now one thing that everyone's forgetting, and it will be painful, but listen anyway and then take a cold shower. We must do well to remember that we, members of this (and probably other) automotive forum sites, are FANS of ALMOST EVERYTHING automotive. There is a whole other subset of the public known as the "non-enthusiast" who simply see cars and trucks as transportation devices. You know, people who buy Ford Rangers or Hyundai Sonatas because they're just good enough. To these people, a vehicle like the Ute is going to be a non-starter no matter what - "It doesn't have a back seat like other trucks", "It won't carry my Jobox", "There's no trunk", "The back window doesn't open", etc. etc. ad infinitum. Also, there is naturally going to be negative stigma from people who never were fans of the sedan-pickup concept to begin with - they will always deride such a vehicle as a half-breed or a seventies throwback, regardless of whether or not it drives well or looks good. (I consider these people to be narrow-minded and lacking in imagination or a sense of fun, but I digress.) Which all makes the point that no matter what badge you put on it, this truck is naturally going to be a vehicle with a narrow focus.

4) Bob Lutz may actually be right - Chevy does have a TON of stuff on its plate right now. Here's the pipeline for Chevy:

Aveo - new hatch coming soon, sedan recently refreshed

Cobalt - refresh coming soon, along with the revived SS model and its new turbo four

HHR - new turbo SS model, new panel variant, probable refresh in year or two

Volt - however it comes out, this is a big introduction by any stretch

Malibu - all-new stem-to-stern, with a Hybrid model to boot

Impala - soon to be Zeta-fied as the rational person's G8 and (possibly) a new entry in the burgeoning cop car sales race

Camaro - 'nuff said, now it just has to get here

Corvette - gets more power for '08 and there's that lingering rumor of a Z06-Plus version

Equinox - refreshed soon, with new powertrains and improved interior

Traverse (or whatever) - another crossover (sigh)

Tahoe - new last year, with the Hybrid model now appearing

Suburban - see Tahoe, delete Hybrid

TrailBlazer - soon to be dead?

Express - forgotten, but a consistent seller

Colorado - due for a refresh and a possible V8 upgrade

Silverado - new this year, still phasing out the "Classic" models, waiting on a new SS version

Avalanche - new last year, probably due for a special model or two, maybe an SS?

And here's GMC's:

Savana - still around

Acadia - new this year, and definitely the middle sister to the Outlook (default choice) and Enclave (connoisseur's choice). V8 coming?

Envoy - soon to be travelin' on

Yukon - new last year, Hybrid now available, Denali losing out to Escalade among lux-ute fans

Canyon - if anyone remembers it exists, it should get an update soon (I actually see more Isuzu i-Series than I do Canyons)

Sierra - new this year, Denali is a nice exclusive on this platform

You can see the disparity. And even if you add in Pontiac and Buick models, it still doesn't reach the full scope and range of what Chevy dealers have on their lots at any given moment. All of this is meant to make the point that as a Chevy, the Ute would be seriously lost after a short while. And don't say that the Ute is a unique product - so was the previous Camaro, and it eventually settled into the background too.

5) Finally, I honestly think that if the sedan-pickup idea is going to be revived, it ought to get a truly fresh start. And since very few people (outside of we, the fanatics, that is) even remember that GMC once offered such a vehicle, that brand might as well get the shot at re-introducing it to the American market. Even better, GMC as a brand is a bit of a clean slate - it has always been a slave (though never a victim) of fashion and can easily trend toward whatever bent you'd like it to go in (luxury, sports, work, family, etc.). This gives you the chance to try several versions of the concept and see what sticks.

Henceforth, I present the following proposal for what I'd like to call...the GMC Cruz.

(That's "Cruz" as in "Santa Cruz", which is of course a city along California's "El Camino Real". That it happens to sound like the word "cruise" is also beneficial.)

Body styles:

* The basic two-door, two-seat pickup (better known as the Ute)

* A four-door crew cab pickup (better known as the Crewman)

Body options:

* The standard flush-fit bed and tailgate (all models)

* The larger, more robust "tray" bed for heavy-duty work (SLE and SLT models only)

Engines:

* 260hp 3.6 DOHC V6 (standard) - 6-speed manual or 5-speed auto

* 315hp 5.3 OHV V8 (optional) - 5-speed auto

* 365hp 6.0 OHV V8 (performance) - 6-speed manual or 5-speed auto

Models:

* SLE (well-equipped with standard V6, RWD) - two-door or four-door

* SLT (fully equipped with standard V6 and optional 5.3 V8, RWD or optional AWD) - two-door or four-door

* SP (as for SLE, but with sporty trim and standard 5.3 V8, RWD or optional AWD) - two-door or four-door

* SPX (as for SLT, but with sporty trim and standard 6.0 V8, RWD only) - two-door (four-door later?)

* Denali (premium equipment and standard 6.0 V8, AWD only) - four-door (two-door later?)

This is a first-year lineup, of course, and the premium models would naturally follow a staggered release schedule. I'd work it out for the two-door models to arrive first in SLE, SLT and SP trim, then add the SPX a few months later. Four-door SLE, SLT and SP models would then arrive a couple months after the SPX two-door, followed a few months later by the loaded and chromed-out Denali four-door to cap the line. SPX four-door and Denali two-door models would be offered eventually, but contingent solely on sales of the original versions.

You'll note that these models, save for the ultra-lux Denali, roughly parallel Holden's own trims: the Crewman comes in base or S forms with V6 power, and in sporty SS guise with the 6.0 V8. I've simply added the 5.3 as a "base V8" option in between, so as to split the difference between the V6 models and the fire-breathing 6.0. Naturally, both V8s would offer cylinder-shutoff technology for improved fuel economy. And hey, maybe we could get that new diesel V8 under the hood eventually...

Marketing would continue to be along the lines of GMC's current "Professional Grade" mantra, but pitched as an executive express (especially in SLT and Denali trim) or the fastest production pickups on the market (in SP and SPX trim, a claim easily made now that the Ram SRT and F150 Lightning have disappeared). And with the serious chassis underneath this thing, I don't think it would be out of line to pit the SPX against, say, a BMW 5 or 6 Series just for giggles.

Assuming success of this "basic" line, one could then look into adding something like a Z71 option with raised ride-height and basic off-road equipment for SLE and SLT models - something like the Subaru Outback in concept, but easily more durable in off-pavement excursions. (Here's an easy ad: tout the fact that, unlike the so-called Outback by Subaru, the Cruz was actually developed and tested in the "real" Outback of Australia.)

Just print up the brochures, and let's get going!

One final note (HEY, CHEVY GUYS! HERE YOU GO): None of these plans exclude the possibility of a Chevy Camino (yes, I dropped the "El") at some point in the future. Offered only as a two-door (to give GMC some retained exclusivity with the four-door), it would offer LS or LT trim with the V6 or 5.3 V8 (AWD optional), as well as an SS model with the 6.0 V8 (RWD only). The key here would be ensuring that it maintains a notably different appearance from its GMC counterpart. In this way, the Camino is actually made MORE distinctive by the fact that it's now the exclusive version, while the GMC is the "volume" model that everyone else has. And besides, Chevy's already got the Avalanche as a four-door sport pickup. (Bigger, yes, but it's obviously got its own fan base.)

The best thing about all this is that there's basically no competition for this sort of car-based vehicle here in the US. The only reasonably similar vehicle of recent years, Subaru's half-baked Baja, recently left the market at about the same level of obscurity upon which it entered.

Comments, questions, and suggestions are always appreciated.

[meekin111]

I think this could fit well in any of the 3 brands in question

[Camino LS6]

A little late to the party, I know, and I don't have the benefit of being that well-known on this board either. However, I've done my share of backseat automotive marketing over the past few years on the net, and I've gotten pretty good at analyzing this stuff.

That said, I'm in the GMC camp on this one. There are several reasons why, and I think it makes a good business case. (NOTE TO CHEVY FANS: Keep reading, you'll see...)

1) GMC gets actual marketing money these days. Back when the Sprint and Caballero were new, they did not get the same attention and the sales figures show it. (It also didn't help that the Sprint/Caballero had absolutely NO distinction from their better-known counterparts over at Chevy, save for the occasional ugly stripe package.) I will grant you that, simply by the realities of their smaller dealer network, a GMC version will not be as visible as a Chevy, but we're all agreed anyway that this is a niche vehicle from the start.

2) GMC desperately needs a halo vehicle. Saturn's got one (the Sky), Pontiac's got one (the Solstice), Cadillac's got two (the XLR and the Escalade), Chevy will have two (the Corvette and the Camaro), and I would argue that Buick now has one too (the Enclave, which seems to be popping up all over the place lately). GMC has...a whole mess of Denali models. Give GMC the Ute and you have the basis for an easy new marketing message: "Redefining Professional Grade." If a sporty sedan-pickup with available AWD doesn't redefine GMC, I'm not sure what else would.

3) Now one thing that everyone's forgetting, and it will be painful, but listen anyway and then take a cold shower. We must do well to remember that we, members of this (and probably other) automotive forum sites, are FANS of ALMOST EVERYTHING automotive. There is a whole other subset of the public known as the "non-enthusiast" who simply see cars and trucks as transportation devices. You know, people who buy Ford Rangers or Hyundai Sonatas because they're just good enough. To these people, a vehicle like the Ute is going to be a non-starter no matter what - "It doesn't have a back seat like other trucks", "It won't carry my Jobox", "There's no trunk", "The back window doesn't open", etc. etc. ad infinitum. Also, there is naturally going to be negative stigma from people who never were fans of the sedan-pickup concept to begin with - they will always deride such a vehicle as a half-breed or a seventies throwback, regardless of whether or not it drives well or looks good. (I consider these people to be narrow-minded and lacking in imagination or a sense of fun, but I digress.) Which all makes the point that no matter what badge you put on it, this truck is naturally going to be a vehicle with a narrow focus.

4) Bob Lutz may actually be right - Chevy does have a TON of stuff on its plate right now. Here's the pipeline for Chevy:

Aveo - new hatch coming soon, sedan recently refreshed

Cobalt - refresh coming soon, along with the revived SS model and its new turbo four

HHR - new turbo SS model, new panel variant, probable refresh in year or two

Volt - however it comes out, this is a big introduction by any stretch

Malibu - all-new stem-to-stern, with a Hybrid model to boot

Impala - soon to be Zeta-fied as the rational person's G8 and (possibly) a new entry in the burgeoning cop car sales race

Camaro - 'nuff said, now it just has to get here

Corvette - gets more power for '08 and there's that lingering rumor of a Z06-Plus version

Equinox - refreshed soon, with new powertrains and improved interior

Traverse (or whatever) - another crossover (sigh)

Tahoe - new last year, with the Hybrid model now appearing

Suburban - see Tahoe, delete Hybrid

TrailBlazer - soon to be dead?

Express - forgotten, but a consistent seller

Colorado - due for a refresh and a possible V8 upgrade

Silverado - new this year, still phasing out the "Classic" models, waiting on a new SS version

Avalanche - new last year, probably due for a special model or two, maybe an SS?

And here's GMC's:

Savana - still around

Acadia - new this year, and definitely the middle sister to the Outlook (default choice) and Enclave (connoisseur's choice). V8 coming?

Envoy - soon to be travelin' on

Yukon - new last year, Hybrid now available, Denali losing out to Escalade among lux-ute fans

Canyon - if anyone remembers it exists, it should get an update soon (I actually see more Isuzu i-Series than I do Canyons)

Sierra - new this year, Denali is a nice exclusive on this platform

You can see the disparity. And even if you add in Pontiac and Buick models, it still doesn't reach the full scope and range of what Chevy dealers have on their lots at any given moment. All of this is meant to make the point that as a Chevy, the Ute would be seriously lost after a short while. And don't say that the Ute is a unique product - so was the previous Camaro, and it eventually settled into the background too.

5) Finally, I honestly think that if the sedan-pickup idea is going to be revived, it ought to get a truly fresh start. And since very few people (outside of we, the fanatics, that is) even remember that GMC once offered such a vehicle, that brand might as well get the shot at re-introducing it to the American market. Even better, GMC as a brand is a bit of a clean slate - it has always been a slave (though never a victim) of fashion and can easily trend toward whatever bent you'd like it to go in (luxury, sports, work, family, etc.). This gives you the chance to try several versions of the concept and see what sticks.

Henceforth, I present the following proposal for what I'd like to call...the GMC Cruz.

(That's "Cruz" as in "Santa Cruz", which is of course a city along California's "El Camino Real". That it happens to sound like the word "cruise" is also beneficial.)

Body styles:

* The basic two-door, two-seat pickup (better known as the Ute)

* A four-door crew cab pickup (better known as the Crewman)

Body options:

* The standard flush-fit bed and tailgate (all models)

* The larger, more robust "tray" bed for heavy-duty work (SLE and SLT models only)

Engines:

* 260hp 3.6 DOHC V6 (standard) - 6-speed manual or 5-speed auto

* 315hp 5.3 OHV V8 (optional) - 5-speed auto

* 365hp 6.0 OHV V8 (performance) - 6-speed manual or 5-speed auto

Models:

* SLE (well-equipped with standard V6, RWD) - two-door or four-door

* SLT (fully equipped with standard V6 and optional 5.3 V8, RWD or optional AWD) - two-door or four-door

* SP (as for SLE, but with sporty trim and standard 5.3 V8, RWD or optional AWD) - two-door or four-door

* SPX (as for SLT, but with sporty trim and standard 6.0 V8, RWD only) - two-door (four-door later?)

* Denali (premium equipment and standard 6.0 V8, AWD only) - four-door (two-door later?)

This is a first-year lineup, of course, and the premium models would naturally follow a staggered release schedule. I'd work it out for the two-door models to arrive first in SLE, SLT and SP trim, then add the SPX a few months later. Four-door SLE, SLT and SP models would then arrive a couple months after the SPX two-door, followed a few months later by the loaded and chromed-out Denali four-door to cap the line. SPX four-door and Denali two-door models would be offered eventually, but contingent solely on sales of the original versions.

You'll note that these models, save for the ultra-lux Denali, roughly parallel Holden's own trims: the Crewman comes in base or S forms with V6 power, and in sporty SS guise with the 6.0 V8. I've simply added the 5.3 as a "base V8" option in between, so as to split the difference between the V6 models and the fire-breathing 6.0. Naturally, both V8s would offer cylinder-shutoff technology for improved fuel economy. And hey, maybe we could get that new diesel V8 under the hood eventually...

Marketing would continue to be along the lines of GMC's current "Professional Grade" mantra, but pitched as an executive express (especially in SLT and Denali trim) or the fastest production pickups on the market (in SP and SPX trim, a claim easily made now that the Ram SRT and F150 Lightning have disappeared). And with the serious chassis underneath this thing, I don't think it would be out of line to pit the SPX against, say, a BMW 5 or 6 Series just for giggles.

Assuming success of this "basic" line, one could then look into adding something like a Z71 option with raised ride-height and basic off-road equipment for SLE and SLT models - something like the Subaru Outback in concept, but easily more durable in off-pavement excursions. (Here's an easy ad: tout the fact that, unlike the so-called Outback by Subaru, the Cruz was actually developed and tested in the "real" Outback of Australia.)

Just print up the brochures, and let's get going!

One final note (HEY, CHEVY GUYS! HERE YOU GO): None of these plans exclude the possibility of a Chevy Camino (yes, I dropped the "El") at some point in the future. Offered only as a two-door (to give GMC some retained exclusivity with the four-door), it would offer LS or LT trim with the V6 or 5.3 V8 (AWD optional), as well as an SS model with the 6.0 V8 (RWD only). The key here would be ensuring that it maintains a notably different appearance from its GMC counterpart. In this way, the Camino is actually made MORE distinctive by the fact that it's now the exclusive version, while the GMC is the "volume" model that everyone else has. And besides, Chevy's already got the Avalanche as a four-door sport pickup. (Bigger, yes, but it's obviously got its own fan base.)

The best thing about all this is that there's basically no competition for this sort of car-based vehicle here in the US. The only reasonably similar vehicle of recent years, Subaru's half-baked Baja, recently left the market at about the same level of obscurity upon which it entered.

Comments, questions, and suggestions are always appreciated.

Setting the branding issue aside, there is no way to get all of those trim levels and variants out of Holden.

In fact, nothing but the two-door is confirmed as going into production (at this time).

Likely, what will come here initially will only be the high-end version of the two-door.

If it succeeds, more variants from GMNA are possible in a few years.

I like much of what you propose to a certain degree, but I think you need to choose the best 1 or 2 variants for GMC as I doubt that, even in a perfect world, they will ever get more than that.

The 2-door performance version is the one that needs a home right now, where do you think it would be best placed?

GMC? I think not.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Let's make it a Buick!

J/K

Seriously; if it comes here, it should be an El Camino. This would make sense twofold because Chevrolet certainly has a dealer base to get something like this into MASS rotation, as it would be an excellent alternative to "fuel thirsty" trucks and SUVs.

BUT...

Here's why I think GM would like it to be a GMC:

1) GMC does trucks and as traditional trucks slow down, GMC must shift it's mix to maintain both volume and strength. Hence why we're beginning to see emphasis on the Acadia, Acadia Denali, Ute and Torrent replacement.

2) Sure Chevy can push more volume. HOWEVER, Ute production will probably be limited since they're all being exported from down under, therefore GM doesn't need Chevy to push huge volume. They'll sell out at GMC.

3) Eventhough Chevy needs attention, B/P/GMC is the weakest link in the corporation at this time. So, the more hot products (especially non huge volume products) GM can get into that channel, the better healed it will be.

What's going to suck is if I can go buy a G8 from Pontiac that has the same nose (but different emblem) as the Ute from GMC.... But then again, that might be part of the grand plan as well, since GMC always has been the 'Pontiac truck division' If that is the case though, it's not a good plan.

[Camino LS6]

It will go to B-P-G.

So the choices are Pontiac and GMC.

Unless GM sees the light very, very, soon.

[Sixty8panther]

Halo vehicle for GMC? Where the heck have you been, it's called the Yukon Denali.

THAT is their Halo vehicle, they're a TRUCK brand.

It's bad rnough they got their first non-BOF vehicle this year and their first

transverse mounted motor in the Acadia, two things GMC should have never been

given since they're a professional TRUCK brand, but now you want their halo truck

to be a plus sized Subaru Brat? (I love the UTE but it IS what it is, not a BOF truck)

[Flybrian]

x 3

[XP715]

Can anybody fill me in on what GMC car they will be using as the starting point for the new car-based pickup truck? I can't seem to recall what GMC's car is called. Oh wait, they don't make one!

Make it a Chevrolet! It's the only way to go. As it has been said before, 2009 is the year the El Camino turns 50 and the El Camino would be a fine machine to have on showroom floors next to the new Camaro. Otherwise GM might as well just scrap the plans all together, pussy out at the eleventh hour like they've done for the past fifteen years, and go back to working on slightly changing the design of the headlights and taillights on all their front wheel drive crap like they do every year or so. Wouldn't want to make waves or anything.

[Sixty8panther]

XP, as usual you tell it like it is.

[ehaase]

How about none of the above. I don't think it should come here at all.

[Camino LS6]

How about none of the above. I don't think it should come here at all.

Blasphemy!

I've been waiting too long for this.

[Duncan]

Can anybody fill me in on what GMC car they will be using as the starting point for the new car-based pickup truck? I can't seem to recall what GMC's car is called. Oh wait, they don't make one!

And they didn't when the Sprint and Caballero were around either. What's your point?

The point of the El Camino was never about what car it was based on, it was about the combination of utility with style. (Ford's Ranchero sold reasonably well regardless of whether it was a Falcon, a Fairlane, a Torino or an LTD II - the same was true for the Elky as a Biscayne, a Chevelle or a Malibu.)

Make it a Chevrolet! It's the only way to go. As it has been said before, 2009 is the year the El Camino turns 50 and the El Camino would be a fine machine to have on showroom floors next to the new Camaro. Otherwise GM might as well just scrap the plans all together, pussy out at the eleventh hour like they've done for the past fifteen years, and go back to working on slightly changing the design of the headlights and taillights on all their front wheel drive crap like they do every year or so. Wouldn't want to make waves or anything.

My thing with making it a GMC is that they are already in the process of reinventing themselves (along with Pontiac, while Buick seems very silent lately). Calling it an El Camino right off the bat instantly saddles the car with all kinds of baggage and expectations. You will recall that when the Monaro-GTO arrived in this country, there was huge fanfare about the car's capabilities - but also huge disappointment in that it had all that classic heritage to live up to, and came off as something less than expected in the personality department. ("Hot-rod Cavalier" was a rather popular epithet.) A new Elky would likely have the same problem, whereas a GMC version of the same could begin anew.

Like I said before in my own proposal, give it to GMC first, let it become a success, then give Chevy a version that would end up being more exclusive and, hence, more "special" in the long run.

And no, there's no reason for Pontiac to have a G8 pickup. One other interesting idea, though, and I'm surprised no one else has thought of it yet:

What if it's coming here badged as a Holden Ute?

[Duncan]

How about none of the above. I don't think it should come here at all.

Wow, nice point. Glad you put all that thought and effort into it like the rest of us have.

Was there perhaps more to come from this outburst, or were you just gonna throw it out like a live grenade and see what happens?

[Camino LS6]

I don't believe it can come here as a Holden for a whole host of reasons, legal and otherwise.

I would be most pleased if it did though.

[donpella]

Making it a Pontiac eliminates the badge engineering factor. Pontiac is about RWD excitement, GMC is about "Professional Grade".

Chevy already had the SSR...how'd that work out?

Change the nose, but the cars would still look very related.

Maaan, that chop is hot!! It looks like a 80's El camino with the SS Monte Carlo clip. That brings to mind, I know everyone acts like they hate the Monte, but it they did it off this Zeta platform,RWD, that will be a true reincarnation of the 80's Monte Carlo. The 80's Monte was the coolest in my opinion.com

[Camino LS6]

Here's the one I owned: