All kidding aside

[Camino LS6]

... after 20 years of waiting, I'm a bit disappointed to hear that I won't be getting an El Camino.

That GM has given, or plans to give, the VE ute to another brand other than Chevy.

I need some time to think this over.

So please use this thread to make the case for the Ute as a Chevy,Pontiac, or GMC.

I'll just sit back and read for a while.

Let's not make it a debate though, just state your position and support it.

Thanks.

[K.C.]

I am very disappointed as well.

If I had to pick another brand to get the Ute, it would be GMC and I would name is Syclone. I think the Ute would be good as GMC's halo vehicle that no other vehicle has. Any Australian who uses a Ute for work can tell you that they are professional grade, and offered in the sportier trim levels this vehicle would appeal to those who want the utility of a truck but prefer the handling of a car. I can see alot of younger people buying a vehicle like this as well. It would also fit in with the BGP portfolio, with each brand offering something the others do not.

Thats my .02

[Sixty8panther]

Wait, so it's official?

Let's not forget how many annoying negative-nellys told

us for years how we were "dreaming" if we think there's

even the slightest chance of a 5th gen. Camaro.

[Camino LS6]

Wait, so it's official?

Let's not forget how many annoying negative-nellys told

us for years how we were "dreaming" if we think there's

even the slightest chance of a 5th gen. Camaro.

Nothing is "official" yet, including the arrival of the Ute. But it sure looks like GM wants it as a GMC.

[CMG]

I like the "Camino" in your sig pic.

I figure a Pontiac ute doesn't make sense. Either Chevy or GMC would be more fitting. The last "out of the mainstream" Chevy truck was the SSR, and I don't see them much at all, maybe once or twice every few months. My Chevy buddy's didn't like them at all, maybe they have too narrow an imagination, not sure.

The utes are cool looking and somewhat practical. I like them!

[Northstar]

I think I'd rather see it as a Pontiac if it's not going to be a Chevy. It doesn't really fit GMC's image, to me. It doesn't fit Pontiac's image that well either, but since it's essentially a sports sedan with a huge trunk instead of a back seat, it might as well be a Pontiac if it can't be a Chevy. It should be a Chevy, however.

[CMG]

I think I'd rather see it as a Pontiac if it's not going to be a Chevy. It doesn't really fit GMC's image, to me. It doesn't fit Pontiac's image that well either, but since it's essentially a sports sedan with a huge trunk instead of a back seat, it might as well be a Pontiac if it can't be a Chevy. It should be a Chevy, however.

Pontiac isn't well known for it's TRUCK division.

The Pontiac Aztec that had heavy Pontiac styling and it looked like cheese. The infectious kind.

:AH-HA_wink:

Chevy would be a natural IMO. Pontiac? Not so much. lol

[Camino LS6]

There is an 8 page discussion of this over at that "other" GM site, I'm hoping for some "quality" input from our own.

Now, to step back into the background.

[ZL-1]

My :twocents:

It is a Commodore Ute, which means that in the US it should be marketed as part of BPG (because of the G8): GMC is a natural choice for that, as Pontiac and Ute don't seem to go well together. The only way I'd see a Chevrolet badge would be if the front end got a complete restyling, which would probably be too expensive in light of a low US sales target.

Edited August 26, 2007 by ZL-1

[Northstar]

Pontiac isn't well known for it's TRUCK division.

The Pontiac Aztec that had heavy Pontiac styling and it looked like cheese. The infectious kind.

:AH-HA_wink:

Chevy would be a natural IMO. Pontiac? Not so much. lol

But it's not a truck... its a car with a bed.

[CMG]

My :twocents:

It is a Commodore Ute, which means that in the US it should be marketed as part of BPG (because of the G8): GMC is a natural choice for that, as Pontiac and Ute don't seem to go well together. The only way I'd see a Chevrolet badge would be if the front end got a complete restyling, which would probably be too expensive in light of a low US sales target.

I agree. Keep the front end clean and tweak the front to suit a GMC grill opening.

[Flybrian]

Being a GMC, a Caballero can...

- Command a higher pricetag.

- Legitimately have a sport and luxury model in one (Denali).

- (If production is constrained) be distributed fairly among a smaller dealer network.

[Camino LS6]

Quick!

Somebody post another take so I can stay out of it a while longer!

Must resist responding...

[griff7774]

Being a GMC, a Caballero can...

- Command a higher pricetag.

- Legitimately have a sport and luxury model in one (Denali).

- (If production is constrained) be distributed fairly among a smaller dealer network.

Like he said

[BigPontiac]

From a business perspective, I'd say Pontiac. They can use the product and the cosmetics from the G8 can be carried over maximizing GM investment.

Sadly some GM marketing shmoe is likely cooking up a Pontiac "G8 Series" like the G6 stupidity. I don't see the Ute fitting with GMC all that well, particularly if only the higher line models are targeted for North American like they did with the G8.

[ocnblu]

After railing against GM's decision to barely change the Holden sedan to import it as a Pontiac, I am kind of relieved that the Ute won't be imported as a Chevy. Chevrolet has a new set of style identifiers to define the brand. A GMC in this unique segment has a clean slate. With little investment from the Aussie version, a GMC Syclone (PERFECT name, K.C.) could be given a face that links to the Acadia. And since it will be sold as a GMC, it won't be hurt as much by AU production constraints as a Chevy El Camino would, re: lower volume brand. If the Ute sells well as a GMC, perhaps a version of it will be built with Chevrolet styling DNA in NA in a few years, similar to what we've heard for Pontiac's G8. Another reason: technical information and technician training for the Aussie G8 can easily be transferred to a GMC version of the Ute, since it will be sold in the same dealership... why send all those Chevy mechanics to school on this when BPG techs will already be schooled in it?

Now we're going to have to ask some of our talented choppers to put a GMC face on this handsome new Ute, just to see how it would look.

Edited August 26, 2007 by ocnblu

[Camino LS6]

My :twocents:

It is a Commodore Ute, which means that in the US it should be marketed as part of BPG (because of the G8): GMC is a natural choice for that, as Pontiac and Ute don't seem to go well together. The only way I'd see a Chevrolet badge would be if the front end got a complete restyling, which would probably be too expensive in light of a low US sales target.

Actually no.

Holden already puts a Chevy emblem on the Commodores going to the Middle East, so the Chevy face is already available.

[Camino LS6]

After railing against GM's decision to barely change the Holden sedan to import it as a Pontiac, I am kind of relieved that the Ute won't be imported as a Chevy. Chevrolet has a new set of style identifiers to define the brand. A GMC in this unique segment has a clean slate. With little investment from the Aussie version, a GMC Syclone (PERFECT name, K.C.) could be given a face that links to the Acadia. And since it will be sold as a GMC, it won't be hurt as much by AU production constraints as a Chevy El Camino would, re: lower volume brand. If the Ute sells well as a GMC, perhaps a version of it will be built with Chevrolet styling DNA in NA in a few years, similar to what we've heard for Pontiac's G8.

Now we're going to have to ask some of our talented choppers to put a GMC face on this handsome new Ute, just to see how it would look.

I'd like to see those chops, I'll reserve comment on the rest.

[ocnblu]

I just edited my post above with another (perhaps to GM) compelling reason to make it a GMC.

[Camino LS6]

I'm going to sleep on this one before I respond.

[ZL-1]

Actually no.

Holden already puts a Chevy emblem on the Commodores going to the Middle East, so the Chevy face is already available.

I know, but we're talking US market here. There are no Pontiacs for sale in the Middle East, so there's no confusion between Chevy and Pontiac styling. In the US there would be confusion as the front end is the same as the G8.

[Camino LS6]

Thanks for clarifying your point.

[jbartley]

this is tricky. El Camino has excellent cachet and recognition. Cabellero? not so much. But it would be good for GMC, but i could see it as a pontiac as well...

I'd LIKE to see the Holden Ute photoshopped with the grille from the Graphyte concept on it. After all that's the direction the yukon/sierra/acadia refresh will be heading.

Edited August 26, 2007 by jbartley

[BatmanGTO]

I don't care what its badged as as long as the platform is here... i can custom make chevy badging for it if i must

[z28luvr01]

I'm not totally against the Ute being a GMC, but I think to make the biggest splash it should return as a Chevrolet. No offense to Roger or anyone else who prefers GMC over Chevy, but El Camino is a far more widely recognizable name than Caballero or even Sprint. Few people other than us car nuts even know that a GMC car/truck exists. Bringing the Caballero back before (or without) an El Camino would be like bringing back the Firebird without a Camaro, or Ford killing the Mustang, then bringing back the Mercury Capri. Send the Ute over as a Chevy first. They will sell every one they make, which could build the case for a Sprint/Caballero companion when NA Zeta production is in full swing.

[CaddyRich]

Pontiac? No way in hell. Make it a GMC...call it the Syclone. You'll still sell it at the BPG dealers anyway. Lutz and the boys already have Pontiac pimping off of Holden as it is.

[Camino LS6]

OK, I decided not to sleep on it after all - so sue me.

I just sent Bob Lutz the following e-mail:

Mr. Lutz,

Two decades ago I purchased my first new vehicle, a 1987 El Camino SS. Ever since, I have been hoping to be able to do that again. In the 20 years since, I have purchased five new vehicles all of which have been either Chevrolets or Pontiacs.

I was overjoyed to learn of the release of the Holden VE Ute, and its likely export to North America. However, I am distressed at rumors of GM's intent to offer it as something other than a Chevrolet El Camino. I must urge you, in the strongest terms, to reconsider such a move. While I can see a certain amount of logic in offering the vehicle as a sibling of the Pontiac G8, or as a GMC Sprint/Caballero, I feel certain that this would be an awful mistake.

As a Pontiac, the advantages of commonality with the G8 would lend a sense of brand identity so desperately needed by that division. In addition, training of sales and service staff would be built-in. The VE Ute is a performer, and as such dovetails nicely with the intent of the Pontiac brand. As a GMC the Ute certainly fits, owing simply to its status as a truck and the history of the Sprint/Caballero. At GMC dealerships which also offer Pontiac, the commonality advantages would also apply, of course. However, I fear that as a Pontiac or GMC, the stunning VE Ute would only be a short-lived novelty product without staying power. Such a fine product deserves better.

The obvious alternative, of course, is to market the Ute as the Chevrolet El Camino we have all been anticipating for years now. 2009 marks the 50th anniversary of the El Camino, and a perfect opportunity to introduce a new model. No new Pontiac, nor re-issued GMC Caballero could hope to match the buzz a 50th anniversary El Camino could.

Imagine, if you would, the one-two punch as the new 2009 Camaro and El Camino grace the covers of magazines and the homepages of websites side-by-side. You can't buy that sort of exposure, it has to be part of your legacy. I'm asking that such an opportunity not be squandered, and that the VE Ute come to the US exclusively as the 2009 El Camino.

Respectfully,

Bob McQuiston (Camino LS6 on the boards)

Staff member: Cheers and Gears .com

[GMTruckGuy74]

Okay, I really can't stand seeing all of these posts saying to call it "Syclone". That would be like calling the '90s Grand Am a "GTO", the Baretta a "Camaro", or the Malibu SS a "Chevelle". It just doesn't fit (an AWD version might make it more acceptable).

This will be the third time I say this here... call it the GMC Centaur (the half man/half horse concept translates very well to the half car/half truck concept). GMC used this name on a 1988 conept truck that was in the veins of the Ute. I don't want it called "Caballero" or "Sprint" either... every Tom, Dick and Harry with an older one will think theirs is worth extra now. Those nameplates need to remain in the past... and Syclone does too. GMC Centaur... it fits perfectly within the current GMC naming scheme better than Caballero and maybe the AWD, V8 version could be called Syclone instead of Denali.

I have to say that while I'm happy to learn that GM is going to give a truck-like vehicle to the Truck Division without much of a fight, it did shock me. Camino, like the saying goes, "A rose by any other name is still a rose", don't let this change your desire to have a modern day version of the vehicle that you are really passionate about. And if the styling isn't dramatically changed from the Ute, maybe you can source Middle East Chevy parts to make it into an El Camino?

I agree with Fly's reasons for it being a GMC, plus the added facts that it's limited production availability will not be a good thing for a mass-marketed Chevy. Maybe if demand for one increases, and production can be moved here to the US, a Chevy version could be added two or three years after the GMC debuts to give GMC a unique vehicle to sell for a while. I still say that GMC could benefit from an Avalache too (with the Sierra's frontend styling).

[Camino LS6]

If it is called Denali and equipped in the soft manner of that nameplate, I won't buy one.

If it's called Caballero and is produced largely unchanged from the Holden version, I'll rip off the emblems and live with it.

Sorry, but Centaur kind of ruins it for me.

[Z-06]

I totally support Bob in this argument. GMC may bring higher price, but I do not think it will command volume as much as a Chevy. $2,000 profit on 50,000 sales is better than $3,000 with a sale of 20,000.

Besides that correct me if I am wrong history tells us Camino came first and then the later. A Chevy is already there in Middle East as badged Holden. However, they do need a better front grill which is aggressive and true to the Chevy NA style. And a Camino SS is much better vibe creator than Syklone, Centaur or Whatever Denali.

Chevy can push this vehicle to a truly reborn segment better than a GMC.

Pontiac??? Give me something that you guys are on. I also do not buy the argument of Holden badged as B-P-G. We are having zeta Chevy coming (may be another one in Impala) and actually produced in NA, so shipping those cars from Oz may be obviated. Depending on the plant capacity, I do not see why they cannot add the Camino.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not totally against the Ute being a GMC, but I think to make the biggest splash it should return as a Chevrolet. No offense to Roger or anyone else who prefers GMC over Chevy, but El Camino is a far more widely recognizable name than Caballero or even Sprint. Few people other than us car nuts even know that a GMC car/truck exists. Bringing the Caballero back before (or without) an El Camino would be like bringing back the Firebird without a Camaro, or Ford killing the Mustang, then bringing back the Mercury Capri. Send the Ute over as a Chevy first. They will sell every one they make, which could build the case for a Sprint/Caballero companion when NA Zeta production is in full swing.

Absolutely!

And once the Camino paves the way, a GMC Cross8 would be a fine expansion of the platform - even in Denali guise.

[BigPontiac]

Making it a Pontiac eliminates the badge engineering factor. Pontiac is about RWD excitement, GMC is about "Professional Grade".

Chevy already had the SSR...how'd that work out?

Change the nose, but the cars would still look very related.

[Camino LS6]

The SSR really has no bearing here, most Camino fans don't care for it. It was a limited -production, overly complex, low-utility toy.

The El Camino would trounce it in sales and profit quite easily.

[Camino LS6]

You have to consider too, who the first, nearly automatic sales will be made to.

They will be El Camino fans, and there will be less of them to put these on the streets if it is marketed as a GMC or Pontiac.

Really, this should be a no-brainer. GM is overthinking the issue and ignoring the obvious if they make it a GMC.

[cletus8269]

definately see the chevy before the gmc. elkys have been tweaked since they came out. rode on the full size for 2 years then popped onto the chevelle frames and a legend was born. had a great uncle that had his first in 65. my dad told me he traded to the new model every year until he died in 79. being between and elky and a hardcore elky man is a bad place to be. gm would be wise to listen to public opinion on this call.

[Camino LS6]

definately see the chevy before the gmc. elkys have been tweaked since they came out. rode on the full size for 2 years then popped onto the chevelle frames and a legend was born. had a great uncle that had his first in 65. my dad told me he traded to the new model every year until he died in 79. being between and elky and a hardcore elky man is a bad place to be. gm would be wise to listen to public opinion on this call.

:AH-HA_wink:

[K.C.]

Camino, I think what BigPontiac was thinking was that the El Camino could be the Chevy truck halo vehicle. I don't think he was comparing them.

[Camino LS6]

Camino, I think what BigPontiac was thinking was that the El Camino could be the Chevy truck halo vehicle. I don't think he was comparing them.

Seems to me that BP was pointing out the limited success of the SSR and its mild resemblence to an El Camino while tacitly endorsing the idea of making the Ute a Pontiac. :AH-HA_wink:

But I could be mistaken.

[buyacargetacheck]

Needs to be a Chevy El Camino. Maybe GM should wait until the Oshawa line is up an running and design one off the Impala lines. Shoot for 30,000 sales or less.

A Ute imported as a GMC will not do well - the styling is too bland - aka the Monaro GTO effect. And hardly anyone in the market for such a niche vehicle will fondly remember the Caballero so they'll have that going against them as well.

Convert the GMC dealers to Chevy - problem solved. Call it the El Camino but only sell it at the Premium Chevy (former GMC) dealers.

...awaiting flames...

Edited August 27, 2007 by buyacargetacheck

[Camino LS6]

Needs to be a Chevy El Camino. Maybe GM should wait until the Oshawa line is up an running and design one off the Impala lines. Shoot for 30,000 sales or less.

A Ute imported as a GMC will not do well - the styling is too bland - aka the Monaro GTO effect. And hardly anyone in the market for such a niche vehicle will fondly remember the Caballero so they'll have that going against them as well.

Convert the GMC dealers to Chevy - problem solved. Call it the El Camino but only sell it at the Premium Chevy (former GMC) dealers.

...awaiting flames...

Except for that last bit , we agree.

[K.C.]

I guess I read something different out of it, or maybe I got that out of it because I was thinking that the El Camino could be the Chevy truck halo vehicle.

I am not pro for it bein a GMC, but I will take what I can get.

[jbartley]

also, i don't think "caballero" really fits in the GMC name lineup.

Sierra,Yukon, Acadia, Denali, they all have a nice premium/upscale cachet.

i don't see how "caballero" works.

[Camino LS6]

Caballero wasn't a good name in 1978, and it still isn't.

[cletus8269]

also, i don't think "caballero" really fits in the GMC name lineup.

Sierra,Yukon, Acadia, Denali, they all have a nice premium/upscale cachet.

i don't see how "caballero" works.

yeah, gmc seems to be runnin out of mountain-rangey names.

[K.C.]

Caballero would not fit for a sports oriented vehicle like the Ute. It would need to be a new name, something that would depict rugged and sporty at the same time. Denali is established at its upscale models and I don't see the U.S. bound Ute using that name. Maybe the vehicle will retain the name Ute here? What do you think of that?

[BigPontiac]

Seems to me that BP was pointing out the limited success of the SSR and its mild resemblence to an El Camino while tacitly endorsing the idea of making the Ute a Pontiac. :AH-HA_wink:

But I could be mistaken.

First off, I really liked your letter to Mr. Lutz...well thought out and concise.

And I am very surprised the Ute isn't going to be a Chevy El Camino...

BUT, moving past the history and emotion and trying to view this as a business decision -- if it's not going to Chevy, then my vote is for Pontiac. As Northstar pointed it, the Ute is still a CAR with a bed. And I'm also assuming the Ute would be imported in limited volumes from Australia, much like the plan for the G8. So RWD performance car sold in limited quantities, combined with leveraging the existing $100MM investment in turning the Commodore into the G8 and Pontiac makes the best business case sense. It combines the service training with the G8 service program as well. And Pontiac desperately needs the product...and might get the Ute in lieu of a Firebird. And best of all, NO BADGE ENGINEERING within the North American market!

Chevrolet will have the Camaro soon and could turn the 427 concept into a Silverado SS (may even be in plan). Not ideal if you've been wishing for an El Camino, but not too bad if you're looking to maximize your investment while providing differentiated products to your various brands.

Let's not forget the GMC Caballero Conquista edition! Also, Pontiac did build an engineering prototype of a Grand Am pickup using a GMC Caballero between 1978-1980. It's featured in the Aug 2007 edition of Smoke Signals magazine and resides in the GM Heritage Collection. So it's not exactly a new idea.

Cue Regfootball rant about RWD with no AWD option...

Edited August 27, 2007 by BigPontiac

[Camino LS6]

El Camino/ Caballero sales 1978-81

EC/CAB

54,286 vs. 6,609 (1978)

58,008 vs. 6,952 (1979)

40,932 vs. 4,742 (1980)

36,711 vs. 4,380 (1981)

[Camino LS6]

First off, I really liked your letter to Mr. Lutz...well thought out and concise.

And I am very surprised the Ute isn't going to be a Chevy El Camino...

BUT, moving past the history and emotion and trying to view this as a business decision -- if it's not going to Chevy, then my vote is for Pontiac. As Northstar pointed it, the Ute is still a CAR with a bed. And I'm also assuming the Ute would be imported in limited volumes from Australia, much like the plan for the G8. So RWD performance car sold in limited quantities, combined with leveraging the existing $100MM investment in turning the Commodore into the G8 and Pontiac makes the best business case sense. It combines the service training with the G8 service program as well. And Pontiac desperately needs the product...and might get the Ute in lieu of a Firebird. And best of all, NO BADGE ENGINEERING within the North American market!

Chevrolet will have the Camaro soon and could turn the 427 concept into a Silverado SS (may even be in plan). Not ideal if you've been wishing for an El Camino, but not too bad if you're looking to maximize your investment while providing differentiated products to your various brands.

Let's not forget the GMC Caballero Conquista edition! Also, Pontiac did build an engineering prototype of a Grand Am pickup using a GMC Caballero between 1978-1980. It's featured in the Aug 2007 edition of Smoke Signals magazine and resides in the GM Heritage Collection. So it's not exactly a new idea.

Thanks.

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with nearly everything in this post?

In fact, if GM doesn't do the right thing, giving the Ute to Pontiac would be the least wrong move that they could make while still bringing it here.

Pontiac (and even some dealers) have built their own versions of the El Camino on quite a few occasions over the years, including the EC's debut year of 1959.

[Camino LS6]

One correction,BP, the Conquista was an El Camino, the Amarillo was the Caballero version.

[BigPontiac]

One correction,BP, the Conquista was an El Camino, the Amarillo was the Caballero version.

I stand corrected. (serves me right for not checking facts before posting :AH-HA_wink: ) Someone on my paper route had one when I was a kid...I remembered it as a GMC. The guy who re-did my Pontiac for me had a thing for El Camino's and used to buy up the late 70s/early 80s models and redo them...sometime with the Choo Choo Customs Monte SS-type nose, etc.