Delphi Bankruptcy to cost GM 11 billion

[GM GUY]

Delphi bankruptcy to cost GM 11 billion

[Cremazie]

This is so painful to watch, so many people affected by this one.. I hope it doesn't cost GM too much, nor many people lose their jobs! Edited October 10, 2005 by Cremazie

[Newbiewar]

they were complaining about health care... try child support... man, if my kid cost me 11 billion i'd be pissed... BK for GM as well...

[SimonDavid]

It won't end up at 11 billion - that's a worst case. I think GM has some sort of preferred charge over Delphi's assets in the case of that clause being triggered Also that potential 11bill is not a cash outflow - it would be an addition to GM's existing 100 odd billion of long term pension liabilities - the interest on it is dwarfed by the 2 billion a year cost savings from reforming Delphi

[Mikko O]

It won't end up at 11 billion -  that's a worst case.  I think GM has some sort of preferred charge over Delphi's assets in the case of that clause being triggered

Also that potential 11bill is not a cash outflow - it would be an addition to GM's existing 100 odd billion of long term pension liabilities - the interest on it is dwarfed by the 2 billion a year cost savings from reforming Delphi

[post="26467"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No matter how you spin this, it's bad news for GM.

[goblue1999]

This is so painful to watch, so many people effected by this one.. I hope it doesn't cost GM too much, nor many people lose their jobs!

[post="26420"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

People have been AFFECTED by this for decades. Shareholders of GM stock have been raked over the coals by the UAW, time to pay up.

the real reason that i respond to your post is to simply say:


UNION - NO

[regfootball]

this just goes to show that major business reform will be needed to fix this problem. its going to have to come from GM, and the unions.

[Cremazie]

People have been AFFECTED by this for decades.  Shareholders of GM stock have been raked over the coals by the UAW, time to pay up.

the real reason that i respond to your post is to simply say:
UNION - NO

[post="26492"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Oh, I thought it was to correct my spelling!
I am for unions, this secnerio is going to show that the unions will listen. I am sure they will.. it is a simple matter: Less money/benefits or No money/no benefits. There is going to be giveback now. Edited October 10, 2005 by Cremazie

[cmattson]

Just a note before we go down the union bashing road (yet again):

Did anybody else catch how the Delphi brass upped their severance packages the day before the bankruptcy filling? I'm not saying that union labor isn't part of the problem -- they certainly are.. but they aren't the only problem.

[Croc]

Just a note before we go down the union bashing road (yet again):

Did anybody else catch how the Delphi brass upped their severance packages the day before the bankruptcy filling?  I'm not saying that union labor isn't part of the problem -- they certainly are.. but they aren't the only problem.

[post="26539"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, this has been noted several times.

The thing is, the severance package was upped to make them more competitive with other suppliers. Are the union contracts uncompetitive with other suppliers? No. Therin lies the difference.

Also, what is more of a drain on a company by a long shot? The severance package of executives, or the pay + benefits of workers?

Just something to think about.

[ehaase]

Did anybody else catch how the Delphi brass upped their severance packages the day before the bankruptcy filling? 

My understanding is that most of the "brass" are new executives who were not responsible for what happened in the past.

[daves87rs]

Gm's stock is down...and still going down. This is not going to be pretty...

[Shantanu]

Rick Wagoner now finds a huge problem on his hands. Basically Delphi can squeeze a lot of money out of GM. They can say: "We'll stop delivery to your plants until you pay us, because we have no money", and GM will have to pay up. Oops! Struck by the Rick again!

[goblue1999]

Oh, I thought it was to correct my spelling!
I am for unions, this secnerio is going to show that the unions will listen. I am sure they will.. it is a simple matter: Less money/benefits or No money/no benefits. There is going to be giveback now.

[post="26511"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

They had their chance, they are no longer going to be invited to the party. I am already hearing rumblings from Delphi guys saying, keep us, we'll ditch the union....


UNION-NO

[Ghost Dog]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/10/news/delphi_gm/

the chances that GM will have to file for bankruptcy are now up to about 30 percent, according to one industry analyst, following the Delphi bankruptcy filing.

[motownr]

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/10/news/delphi_gm/

[post="26586"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As soon as the media has a chance to digest the DPH filing (and specifically Miller's comments about the liklihood of GM and Ford entering Chapter 11), we'll start to see a slew of stories on this topic.

Incidentally, some of the big players on Wall Street are predicting Chapter 11 for GM based on their private meetings with.....GM executives.

[razoredge]

[Ghost Dog]

http://www.newratings.com/analyst_news/article_1055738.html

Banc Of America Cuts General Motors To Sell

Gm stock down ten percent today. I'll bet it's down 50 percent by friday.

[cmattson]

The thing is, the severance package was upped to make them more competitive with other suppliers.

I don't care how competitive the pay is -- for either the salaried workers or the hourly workers. I'm just saying that it's downright piss-poor management to add to the companies debt-load (for self gain) when the company is sliding into bankruptcy, all the while bitching about how the hourly workers are sucking up too much money. Kind of ironic how the corporate brass can piss and moan about payroll costs, but will jump at the chance to increase their own take. So what if they are underpaid in comparison to their companions -- nobody held a gun to their head to take the job -- they willingly took their positions. And when the company falls on tough times, they ask everybody else to take less, while not hesitating to add to their own personal wealth. That's a fine example of the great fiscal responsibility that heads most of these companies down the road to bankruptcy in the first place. I can't blame the unions -- they'll take as much as they can -- just as you or I would -- or, as in this example, the corporate lackeys did. If Delphi mgmt had the foresight, they would've stopped about 3 contracts back and said "no -- our company can't afford this contract". That makes them personally responsible in my book. They went ahead and signed the poor contracts that lead the company into bankruptcy -- and that's where the fault lies: with top management.

[razoredge]

Well, yes you see, the wealthy are entitled

[CaddyXLR-V]

I don't care how competitive the pay is -- for either the salaried workers or the hourly workers.  I'm just saying that it's downright piss-poor management to add to the companies debt-load (for self gain) when the company is sliding into bankruptcy, all the while bitching about how the hourly workers are sucking up too much money.  Kind of ironic how the corporate brass can piss and moan about payroll costs, but will jump at the chance to increase their own take.  So what if they are underpaid in comparison to their companions -- nobody held a gun to their head to take the job -- they willingly took their positions.  And when the company falls on tough times, they ask everybody else to take less, while not hesitating to add to their own personal wealth.  That's a fine example of the great fiscal responsibility that heads most of these companies down the road to bankruptcy in the first place.  I can't blame the unions -- they'll take as much as they can -- just as you or I would -- or, as in this example, the corporate lackeys did. If Delphi mgmt had the foresight, they would've stopped about 3 contracts back and said "no -- our company can't afford this contract".  That makes them personally responsible in my book.  They went ahead and signed the poor contracts that lead the company into bankruptcy -- and that's where the fault lies: with top management.

[post="26764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Delphi didnt sign any contracts. They inheritied them from GM. And do you honestly think if GM said they cant afford those contracts it would make a difference? The only reason they were signed is because they couldnt afford a strike either. How much would a strike cost? 2 billion a month, 3 billion a month? GM should have dealt with the unions 20 years ago when they had the money to.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Well, yes you see, the wealthy are entitled

[post="26771"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

For someone who talks about jealousy alot, you sure seem jealous yourself.

[Member55]

Kirk Kerkorian must be loving this, another opportunity to load up some more cheap GM stock.

[4gm]

Kirk wants to make some money back on his investment. He'll push for union concessions and probably a GMAC spinoff. That's how I see it.

[daves87rs]

Kirk Kerkorian must be loving this, another opportunity to load up some more cheap GM stock.

[post="26805"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Like I said-this is going to get nasty.

And, no, I'm not talking about this thread.... :)

[Member55]

GM is not going into bankruptcy, they have about 20 billion in cash and probably another 20 billion in assets all over the world. Don't you have to be broke in order to file for Chapter 11? It's interesting to see how quick was GM to pint out that they might have to cover 12 billion in pension and health care liabilities. I think that GM is intentionally making itself look as bad as possible in order to squeeze as much as possible from the UAW.

[capriceman]

Why should GM get stuck with the bill they cant pay so it should just be dropped isnt that what bankruptcy is? Funny thing is i got the Delphi Stock owner manual thing and it said they were making money. i got a laugh out of it.

[capriceman]

GM is not going into bankruptcy, they have about 20 billion in cash and probably another 20 billion in assets all over the world. Don't you have to be broke in order to file for Chapter 11? It's interesting to see how quick was GM to pint out that they might have to cover 12 billion in pension and health care liabilities. I think that GM is intentionally making itself  look as bad as possible in order to squeeze as much as possible from the UAW.

[post="26824"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yeah but they are spending more money then making and in autos 20 billion goes fast. Fiat???? Edited October 11, 2005 by capriceman

[razoredge]

For someone who talks about jealousy alot,

what are you talking about ?......dont answer please unless you can show me this talk

you sure seem jealous yourself.

:blink: Oh, I thought I was disappointed......thanks for clearing that up for me.
using jealousy on anybody for anything is only aggressive defence. I've seen jelousy......not in my house. That was truely pathatic.  :unsure:

[post="26790"][/post]

Edited October 11, 2005 by razoredge

[Member55]

yeah but they are spending more money then making and in sutos 20 billion goes fast. Fiat????

[post="26830"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My quess is that GM would have to continue losing money for another 7 or 8 quarters before filling for bankruptcy.

[evok]

I do not care if you are Pro or Against union. The facts are, Delphi and Visteon can not afford to pay the GM and Ford UAW wages and cost structure and be competitive globally. Those are the realities of the industry today. Even other suppliers that have UAW representation do not get paid in the US what Visteon and Delphi worker are obligated under the contract. Suppliers generally pay in the 10-15$/hr range. So what was asked for by DPH was reasonable given the market . Market forces have changed and so must these two companies. It is either that or what is left of US auto supplier manufacturing will leave this country all together. The UAW could strike. But for what? What little remains will leave for good. Do you want to strike and shut down GM. Go for it. And I bet you, GM in a prolonged strike would declare Chapter 11. Ford would than have to in short order. There are serious potentials for chain reaction action by the other US auto compaines that would follow. I have said this DPH filing was history. This is history because the UAW can not win this. Four Fortune 500 companies + DCC survival are in jepordy for many reasons because of the DPH action on Saturday. Blame can be placed everywhere but this is today and action must be taken now. Many band aids to work around the UAW have not worked. Those that say otherwise read to many pundits and do not work in this business. For those that do not know, the UAW 1998 strike against GM violated the contract and GM could have taken civil action. And further action by the UAW against DPH would be the same.

[razoredge]

Id like to know where your getting that 10 -15 per hour from. Hell, Walmart distribution centers pay more than that, Target, Save Alot, Price Chopper, all of them pay in the 15-17 dollar area. They even start at around 12 and my area is far from a high scale area. Im really starting to wonder about some of these figures everyone keeps bringing up. I think they are getting twisted and spun.

[RJB]

They were saying in the paper that GM buys $14 billion a year in parts from Delphi and GM fired back that they are probably over charged $2 billion a year for buying these parts. It coming down to a pissing match and its going to even uglier. Visteon is probably licking their chops at all the possible business they might be able to pick up when this all spins out of control.

[SimonDavid]

GM's 20 billion in cash can disappear very quickly. Their cash outflow was something like 3 billion in the first quarter (cashflow is what is relevant not profit). So you do the math - it's not alot of quarters. And in reality it can all snowball much quicker than that - if they look like they're heading towards chapter 11 then the markets dump their bonds and their financing costs go through the roof, they could be in chapter 11 very quickly. The reality is that Delphi is just a former part of GM. So if the UAW cost structure is not viable at Delphi then it's not viable at GM either. It would however be the most complicated chapter 11 in history - GM's international operations would not be included. Who owns the brands? What happens to global product development? How long before Toyota starts sniffing around?

[ehaase]

Kirk wants to make some money back on his investment.  He'll push for union concessions and probably a GMAC spinoff.  That's how I see it.

I read at the New York Times website (you have to register to read) that Kirk and his minion Jerry York believe that Hummer should be sold and that Saab is not worthy of further investment.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Just a note before we go down the union bashing road (yet again):

Did anybody else catch how the Delphi brass upped their severance packages the day before the bankruptcy filling?  I'm not saying that union labor isn't part of the problem -- they certainly are.. but they aren't the only problem.

[post="26539"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree..

I'm anti UAW and all but that was MAJOR :bs:

As soon as the media has a chance to digest the DPH filing (and specifically Miller's comments about the liklihood of GM and Ford entering Chapter 11), we'll start to see a slew of stories on this topic.

Yes, I agree.. We'll see more NEGATIVE "ammo" to drive the company's stock down more and thus move them toward the ultimate goal OF bankruptcy.

Everyone say 'thanks' to the media for the "HONEST" reporting on those Delphi sourced domestics... This is just the beginning of the damage the media has done and the thousands of lives this "group" of bought off people have destroyed with this "story" they've built.

Delphi, based in Troy, Mich., has struggled since it was spun off from former parent General Motors in 1999, posting net losses of $741 million in the first half of 2005 alone.

Rod Tadross has always had it in for GM, and I thought initially Delphi did well only sinking into losses a year or 2 ago.

For those that do not know, the UAW 1998 strike against GM violated the contract and GM could have taken civil action. And further action by the UAW against DPH would be the same.

THEY SHOULD HAVE!!!

That strike cost A LOT of share and ACCELERATED the decline we see today.

I read at the New York Times website (you have to register to read) that Kirk and his minion Jerry York believe that Hummer should be sold and that Saab is not worthy of further investment.

And the whoring out of our company begins. (Re: my comments in the lounge thread)

[evok]

Id like to know where your getting that 10 -15 per hour from.

[post="26879"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do your own research to verify if you want!

[thegriffon]

I read at the New York Times website (you have to register to read) that Kirk and his minion Jerry York believe that Hummer should be sold and that Saab is not worthy of further investment.

[post="26924"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You misread, that's what some analysts recommended, not what York or Kerkorian are suggesting.

[evok]

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-344612.htm

"Don Thomas, a skilled tradesman at a Delphi plant in Rochester, N.Y., said he didn't have the energy to face his job Monday, knowing so many questions swirled overhead.

"I didn't even bother to go in," he said. "

And you wonder why DPH filed?

[thegriffon]

this just goes to show that major business reform will be needed to fix this problem.  its going to have to come from GM, and the unions.

[post="26502"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As in my post in an earlier thread, I believe the solution must come from outside GM. This is a problem that effects much of US industry and is a structural problem that goes way beyond GM. There must be a national solution that removes the burden of supporting retired employees from companies whose customer and employee base no longer supports it. Companies change, entire industries change. There must be a structural change in the entire US pension system that avoids the neccessity of bankruptcy and the loss of benefits. It's time to establish a handful of funds that will cover the entire population, pooling the assets and liabilities of existing company, industry and union funds, if necessary backed up by a sales tax on every product sold in the US, both domestic and import, physical and intangible. Only in this way will you avoid the problems associated with economic change you see facing Delphi and GM, and remove the need for the current underfunded guarantee corporation. It shouldn't require every company in the US to go bankrupt with the subsequent loss of benefits to accomplish this.

[cmattson]

I wholeheartedly agree with you; and in the order of making US-based businesses competitive again, we need to get the whole healthcare crisis undercontrol. The escalating premiums of healthcare coverage and prescription drugs are a large portion of the costs to these legacy workers. I'm afraid that any solution left up to politicians to decipher and institute isn't comming anytime soon.

[evok]

I wholeheartedly agree with you; and in the order of making US-based businesses competitive again, we need to get the whole healthcare crisis undercontrol.  The escalating premiums of healthcare coverage and prescription drugs are a large portion of the costs to these legacy workers.

I'm afraid that any solution left up to politicians to decipher and institute isn't comming anytime soon.

[post="26996"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree and in one of my rants from months ago I said, "GM, Ford and DCC are not run like businesses but welfare systems for their retired employees."

The institutional problem is the US government is leveraged as bad as the US Big 3. Even the Medicare prescription plan that takes affect shortly which was designed to eleviate some of the health care burden on these companies is not funded. With ongoing problems in Iraq that do not appear to be moving in the right direction and the US will have to continue to fund, the aftermath of Rita and Katrina, inflation potential because of fuel prices that, all contributing to a possible slow down in the economy, there is no easy solution to fix significant structural problems in the US economy.

Short term solution will have to be for the government to raise the employee tax on corporations which would be the most fair to pay for SS, medicare and Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. obligations.

Does anyone think that will happen with the current administrations adversion to tax hikes? Edited October 11, 2005 by evok

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

As in my post in an earlier thread, I believe the solution must come from outside GM. This is a problem that effects much of US industry and is a structural problem that goes way beyond GM. There must be a national solution that removes the burden of supporting retired employees from companies whose customer and employee base no longer supports it.

There is.... OUTSOURCING. Because apparently the government isn't going to do anything about it. So I guess that solution is fine by them.

Companies change, entire industries change. There must be a structural change in the entire US pension system that avoids the neccessity of bankruptcy and the loss of benefits. It's time to establish a handful of funds that will cover the entire population, pooling the assets and liabilities of existing company, industry and union funds, if necessary backed up by a sales tax on every product sold in the US, both domestic and import, physical and intangible. Only in this way will you avoid the problems associated with economic change you see facing Delphi and GM, and remove the need for the current underfunded guarantee corporation. It shouldn't require every company in the US to go bankrupt with the subsequent loss of benefits to accomplish this.

[post="26956"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Apparently it does... Apparently it involves the collapse of VITAL core industries such as textiles, automobiles, steel and airlines and apparently this country doesn't care to fix the problem regardless.

[razoredge]

The pension funds are low for two reasons due to outsourcing and eliminating the contributing workforce. suffered from return on investments with the aftermath of Sept. 11th though it has still been business as usual in the United States, nothing changed. Im sure many "economists" could and did predict the intence problems that would be created by eliminating the jobs that contribute to these pension funds 30 years ago. Yet corporate America with the help of our Government continued on this path and here we are today. I dont have the answer to this current problem, it is already upon us. However there will be much more of this comming down the pipeline if we dont change our trade policy. Economic theorizing that one day (century) when the third world catches up with our economy there will be balance again is bullshit. There are many generation of American citizens between now and then and our Government is paid to serve and protect its citizens. They had better hurry up and figure out what is good for the entire population of this country. These Boomtown economics have done nothing but burn the candle faster.

[soozi2u]

You are correct, management pads their own pocket, while we all must realize that the hourly workers only receive what management agrees for them to have! Hourly employees have no say on management issues, but when things get bad the finger is first pointed to the hourly employees "UNION FAULT"! <_<

[thegriffon]

You can play the blame game all you like, but that isn't going to change anything. As I said in my other post it's time for the unions to show some leadership and flex their muscle in a way that will benefit both heir industries and their employees. I am not "blaming" the unions, yet in hindsight the current system of company benefits is fundamentally flawed. The open access to imports has largely benefited American consumers. Do you really want to go back to the era when the domestics gained the reputation for building junk that haunts them today? GM continues to make serious mistakes, in negotions with unions, alliance partners, sales of assets and product development (good cars, but usually the wrong cars). Even if they had got everything right however that would only delay the pain to come. GM would still lose market share, if not as dramatically, still face astronomical health-care costs and still be burdened with a pension and benefit burden out of proportion with it's current operations. Hundreds, thousands of other companies in different industries are faced with similar problems, whether due to increased competition, poor business decisions, or shifts in the structure of the US economy and industry. You can't turn back the clock to the '50s, and I doubt many people would co-operate if you tried, no matter how nostalgic they wax. It's time the unions and corporate leaders fromaffected industries worked together to push this through. Create national funds and let contributions from growing companies and industries support the pensions of retirees from shrinking ones. Subsidizing contriubtions through a sales tax can come later if necessary. Make compulsory amalgamation into (competing) national pension funds the Big Issue at the next election. In the mean time perhaps GM's fund managers should buy Toyota and siphon all that cash flow into supporting retirees.

[Ghost Dog]

First 10-15 dollars an hour is far from reasonable. Saying these are 10-15 dollar an hour jobs is false. They may have been twenty years ago but they are'nt now. To think someone will go from Middle class to poverty without a fight is just silly. they can be poor working for somebody else. The stuff about having to be at Chinese and Mexican wage levels is just offensive. What are the German Delphi employees making? Sorry but Germany is the Comparison not China. The U.A.W has to look at what the Germans did last year. Thats what gets results. Edited October 11, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[goblue1999]

I don't care how competitive the pay is -- for either the salaried workers or the hourly workers.  I'm just saying that it's downright piss-poor management to add to the companies debt-load (for self gain) when the company is sliding into bankruptcy, all the while bitching about how the hourly workers are sucking up too much money.  Kind of ironic how the corporate brass can piss and moan about payroll costs, but will jump at the chance to increase their own take.  So what if they are underpaid in comparison to their companions -- nobody held a gun to their head to take the job -- they willingly took their positions.  And when the company falls on tough times, they ask everybody else to take less, while not hesitating to add to their own personal wealth.  That's a fine example of the great fiscal responsibility that heads most of these companies down the road to bankruptcy in the first place.  I can't blame the unions -- they'll take as much as they can -- just as you or I would -- or, as in this example, the corporate lackeys did. If Delphi mgmt had the foresight, they would've stopped about 3 contracts back and said "no -- our company can't afford this contract".  That makes them personally responsible in my book.  They went ahead and signed the poor contracts that lead the company into bankruptcy -- and that's where the fault lies: with top management.

[post="26764"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

they aren't adding to the debt load. They have simply aligned a severance policy with industry standard, and to my knowledge, they haven't actually paid anyone who has left yet. Even if they had, the differnce is only 6mos. pay for the employee in question. Ten UAW workers' absenteeism more than covers that.

[goblue1999]

First 10-15 dollars an hour is far from reasonable. Saying these are 10-15 dollar an hour jobs is false.  They may have been twenty years ago but they are'nt now. 

To think someone will go from Middle class to poverty without a fight is just silly. they can be poor working for somebody else.
The stuff about  having to be at Chinese and Mexican wage levels is just offensive.  What are the German Delphi employees making?  Sorry but Germany is the Comparison not China.

The U.A.W  has to look at what the Germans did last year. Thats what gets results.

[post="27177"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Number 1, you don't get it. You won't accept global competition until you are on the unemployment line.

Number2, Delphi's non-us operations are profitable, not germaine.

[CaddyXLR-V]

You can play the blame game all you like, but that isn't going to change anything. As I said in my other post it's time for the unions to show some leadership and flex their muscle in a way that will benefit both heir industries and their employees. I am not "blaming" the unions, yet in hindsight the current system of company benefits is fundamentally flawed. The open access to imports has largely benefited American consumers. Do you really want to go back to the era when the domestics gained the reputation for building junk that haunts them today? GM continues to make serious mistakes, in negotions with unions, alliance partners, sales of assets and product development (good cars, but usually the wrong cars). Even if they had got everything right however that would only delay the pain to come. GM would still lose market share, if not as dramatically, still face astronomical health-care costs and still be burdened with a pension and benefit burden out of proportion with it's current operations. Hundreds, thousands of other companies in different industries are faced with similar problems, whether due to increased competition, poor business decisions, or shifts in the structure of the US economy and industry. You can't turn back the clock to the '50s, and I doubt many people would co-operate if you tried, no matter how nostalgic they wax. It's time the unions and corporate leaders fromaffected industries worked together to push this through. Create national funds and let contributions from growing companies and industries support the pensions of retirees from shrinking ones. Subsidizing contriubtions through a sales tax can come later if necessary. Make compulsory amalgamation into (competing) national pension funds the Big Issue at the next election.

In the mean time perhaps GM's fund managers should buy Toyota and siphon all that cash flow into supporting retirees.

[post="27176"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So basically tax all the companies who sell products here, to cover all the employees that work here, making it a level playing field?