2 G.M. Brands, a Similar Car, but Very Different Results

[Camino LS6]

Damn right I'm ready! I've been waiting a very long time for something like zeta, and I guarantee that I will own at least one zeta vehicle within the first 3 years of production.

The alternative is that GM continues to build cars I would never buy, so without Zeta I have a hard time caring.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Funny we are at opposite ends of the poles. I could use that same sentence to reflect how I feel about the Pontiac Holden relationship.

The alternative is that GM continues to build cars I would never buy, so with Holden rebadges, I have a hard time caring.

[Camino LS6]

As far as new cars go, I will never buy a FWD and it is very unlikely that I'd buy anything with 4 doors or less than a V8. And , for cars, a manual transmission. So, zeta is the only thing that fits the bill for me.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Funny we are at opposite ends of the poles. I could use that same sentence to reflect how I feel about the Pontiac Holden relationship.

The alternative is that GM continues to build cars I would never buy, so with Holden rebadges, I have a hard time caring.

But, you are one person. The average person has no connection with Holden, and doesn't hate them like you do. And whether you care about Holden or not, it is still a part of GM, and if Holden succeeds, that is a good thing for GM. Hoping Holden fails is like hoping GM fails.

[buyacargetacheck]

The part about Pontiac being gone within 5 years probably sooner after the G8 bombs a la Monaro GTO sounds just about right. By that time, the BPG channel consolidation will have been just about completed - enough so that one or more nameplates can be "safely" dropped.

Zeta sounds cool enough (rear drive, big engines), but it'll be the wrong car at the wrong time. Fuel prices are never going back down for good (see Peak Oil). No amount of alt. fuels and wiz bang technology "solutions" will allow us here in the States to operate like we have for the last 100 years. Has anyone noticed how many hundreds of thousands of people have died in the last 10 years because of the industrial world's need for oil and gas? Likely, we'll be looking at future cars going down in weight, displacement and overall size. US roads are more likely (not less likely) to look like European and Asian ones in the future: full of A and B class cars.

I disagree, I think you will see Pontiac gone between 5-7 years, if the G8 bombs as I think it will, maybe sooner. If the buying public turns it's collective nose up at the Zeta Platform as a whole in North America, I think you will be looking at Toyota buying GM within 15 years and if GM is lucky, it will survive as as a division of Toyota. Let's see where we are in 15 years, shall we?

[Camino LS6]

The part about Pontiac being gone within 5 years probably sooner after the G8 bombs a la Monaro GTO sounds just about right. By that time, the BPG channel consolidation will have been just about completed - enough so that one or more nameplates can be "safely" dropped.

Zeta sounds cool enough (rear drive, big engines), but it'll be the wrong car at the wrong time. Fuel prices are never going back down for good (see Peak Oil). No amount of alt. fuels and wiz bang technology "solutions" will allow us here in the States to operate like we have for the last 100 years. Has anyone noticed how many hundreds of thousands of people have died in the last 10 years because of the industrial world's need for oil and gas? Likely, we'll be looking at future cars going down in weight, displacement and overall size. US roads are more likely (not less likely) to look like European and Asian ones in the future: full of A and B class cars.

Another dismal outlook, I have far more faith in the ability of car makers to innovate. And, I believe that a real push toward replacing oil as a fuel is taking place (30 years late, but finally happening). No A and B class cars for me -ever.

[Oracle of Delphi]

But, you are one person. The average person has no connection with Holden, and doesn't hate them like you do. And whether you care about Holden or not, it is still a part of GM, and if Holden succeeds, that is a good thing for GM. Hoping Holden fails is like hoping GM fails.

Hate, is such a strong word! Dislike immensely, would be more accurate. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited August 24, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[buyacargetacheck]

You aren't alone in your hope for technology to bail us out. Oil will never be fully replaced - the laws of thermodynamics won't allow it. Remember, at the dawn of the automotive age many different fuels and engine types (including steam and electric) were tried. Gasoline and internal combustion won because it was the best, the least costly and the most powerful. All the talk you hear about electric, hydrogen, bio-fuels and, especially, ethanol are just talk. We might be able to run some cars on these fuels but none at the low-level of cost, high-performance and convenience that we enjoy today. And certainly not enough to match the scale that gasoline provides today. Get used to the idea of walking and, on occasion, driving an Aveo-sized vehicle. Bank on it.

Another dismal outlook, I have far more faith in the ability of car makers to innovate. And, I believe that a real push toward replacing oil as a fuel is taking place (30 years late, but finally happening). No A and B class cars for me -ever.

[Camino LS6]

You aren't alone in your hope for technology to bail us out. Oil will never be fully replaced - the laws of thermodynamics won't allow it. Remember, at the dawn of the automotive age many different fuels and engine types (including steam and electric) were tried. Gasoline and internal combustion won because it was the best, the least costly and the most powerful. All the talk you hear about electric, hydrogen, bio-fuels and, especially, ethanol are just talk. We might be able to run some cars on these fuels but none at the low-level of cost, high-performance and convenience that we enjoy today. And certainly not enough to match the scale that gasoline provides today. Get used to the idea of walking and, on occasion, driving an Aveo-sized vehicle. Bank on it.

Actually, I prefer gaseous fuels in traditional ICEs like BMW's hydrogen system. Bio-fuels have a real chance as well and diesel tech is another promising area. No Aveos for me - not a chance.

I would like to see the masses driving Volts, however. And I hope gasoline remains available for classic cars, so some oil useage is fine by me.

[Cadillacfan]

I don't like Hyundai, so therefore, it will be gone in about 5 years. That's the kind of "logic" you guys are using around here in regards to Pontiac, Buick, and Saturn.

Let's use some common sense people!

[Cory Wolfe]

I disagree, I think you will see Pontiac gone between 5-7 years, if the G8 bombs as I think it will, maybe sooner. If the buying public turns it's collective nose up at the Zeta Platform as a whole in North America, I think you will be looking at Toyota buying GM within 15 years and if GM is lucky, it will survive as as a division of Toyota. Let's see where we are in 15 years, shall we?

I'm sorry, but that statement is one of the most idiotic ones I've read in a while.

I don't like Hyundai, so therefore, it will be gone in about 5 years. That's the kind of "logic" you guys are using around here in regards to Pontiac, Buick, and Saturn.

Let's use some common sense people!

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm sorry, but that statement is one of the most idiotic ones I've read in a while.

Really? Hmmmm!

[Flybrian]

There are plenty of other new cars coming from the states itself, Europe, and Asia in the next few years. I don't know how anyone can think GM is putting all its eggs in the Zeta basket.

[Intrepidation]

I disagree, I think you will see Pontiac gone between 5-7 years, if the G8 bombs as I think it will, maybe sooner. If the buying public turns it's collective nose up at the Zeta Platform as a whole in North America, I think you will be looking at Toyota buying GM within 15 years and if GM is lucky, it will survive as as a division of Toyota. Let's see where we are in 15 years, shall we?

I'm sorry, but that statement is one of the most idiotic ones I've read in a while.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

While your suggestions may be intellectual compared to the emotional opinions of other C&G members, it is not practical for GM to euthanize those brands

But the arguments aren't emotional at all.... It has been outlined numerous times on this board about how cutting divisions would just drive costs through the roof and be a revenue losing nightmare.

The fact of the matter is, at this time it is a BETTER business decision for GM to maintain (for later growth) these divisions rather than losing what sales they have altogether.

The Sky has not been more of a success than the Solstice; if anyone needs proof, look no further than the sales number Northstar posted earlier in the thread.

I'm not wishing GM dead, after all that will affect me in a big way. However, what is about to happen with the Zeta Platform will be critical for either GM's survival or utter destruction as a company. Once we take the leap, there is no going back. Are you ready?

You know, if I had a nickel for everytime I heard this phrase and "GM (random program/platform here)" I'd be able to fund this semester in college. Seriously....

All the talk you hear about electric, hydrogen, bio-fuels and, especially, ethanol are just talk. We might be able to run some cars on these fuels but none at the low-level of cost, high-performance and convenience that we enjoy today. And certainly not enough to match the scale that gasoline provides today. Get used to the idea of walking and, on occasion, driving an Aveo-sized vehicle. Bank on it.

LOL... That's too easy. We will innovate our way out of this, nothing about billions invested in alternative fuels is "just talk" All we need for ethanol is an infrastructure, when plug ins become the big urban car of choice, the law of supply and demand will effect gas and the prices will either decrease or stay roughly the same relative to inflation.

You'll not see the majority of americans in a and b segment cars unless they are forced into them which, even with tougher legislation, isn't likely to happen.

Actually, I prefer gaseous fuels in traditional ICEs like BMW's hydrogen system. Bio-fuels have a real chance as well and diesel tech is another promising area. No Aveos for me - not a chance.

I would like to see the masses driving Volts, however. And I hope gasoline remains available for classic cars, so some oil useage is fine by me.

Amen!

[CaddyXLR-V]

The fact of the matter is, at this time it is a BETTER business decision for GM to maintain (for later growth) these divisions rather than losing what sales they have altogether.

Exactly. The worst case scenario would be to just give Pontiac, Buick, and Saturn, enough money to stay afloat while fixing Chevy and Cadillac. Killing them would just drain GM of the money needed to fix Chevy and Cadillac, and once they are gone, there is no coming back.

Once Chevy and Cadillac are fixed, they should be bringing in enough money to fix the rest of the brands.

[FloydHendershot]

You missed the point of my argument entirely. My main point was that Chevy selling 30,000 Kappas would buy GM a lot more in terms of image repair for Chevy than it has for enhancing Pontiac's image or Saturn's because the sales are divided. Plus, Chevy's image is not as good as it could be but it's rock solid compared to the other two. Meaning, it's going to take a lot more Skys and Solstices over a longer period of time to get people thinking positively (if at all) about Saturn and Pontiac.

The main point is another two seat roadster won't do jack $h! for Chevy's "image repair". A family sized sedan that can compete confidently with the Camry and Accord without fleet sales propping them up is what is needed for "image repair".

Imagine the media reaction to the introduction of another two seat roadster without addressing the bread and butter segment.

The fact is the kappa is a niche car that served a purpose. They were sold out year one and continue to sell well.

The neck and neck global sales race with Toyota should be taken seriously and any

action to widen the gap should be questioned on more than one level. Smaller and profitable is the goal. Volume is Chevy's gig. There is no reason to disolve these brands. At all.

--I think it was summed it up somewhere earlier about being embarrassed to be seen in a Pontiac. That is the problem. If more people would think for themselves and drive what they like without fear of other peoples reactions this wouldn't be an issue.

Everyone in minivans to Porches and Ferraris and Scions and Camrys get abused by all sorts of people. Grow a pair and drive what you want and like without fear of what someone else might think of you. Especially if its got the goods. Just my two cents.

Edited August 25, 2007 by FloydHendershot

[Camino LS6]

The main point is another two seat roadster won't do jack $h! for Chevy's "image repair". A family sized sedan that can compete confidently with the Camry and Accord without fleet sales propping them up is what is needed for "image repair".

Imagine the media reaction to the introduction of another two seat roadster without addressing the bread and butter segment.

The fact is the kappa is a niche car that served a purpose. They were sold out year one and continue to sell well.

The neck and neck global sales race with Toyota should be taken seriously and any

action to widen the gap should be questioned on more than one level. Smaller and profitable is the goal. Volume is Chevy's gig. There is no reason to disolve these brands. At all.

--I think it was summed it up somewhere earlier about being embarrassed to be seen in a Pontiac. That is the problem. If more people would think for themselves and drive what they like without fear of other peoples reactions this wouldn't be an issue.

Everyone in minivans to Porches and Ferraris and Scions and Camrys get abused by all sorts of people. Grow a pair and drive what you want and like without fear of what someone else might think of you. Especially if its got the goods. Just my two cents.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

If this is true, my take is that the Pontiac Solstice, as hailed as it is/was, offers absolutely nothing over its Saturn Sky cousin. Now, I do prefer Sky over Solstice for styling and equipment, but they are a bit too similar in many ways. Yeah, they have different front and rear ends. Yeah, Solstice has less equipment than Sky, or even most modern cars for that matter. I just think they need more separation where possible and applicable.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

--I think it was summed it up somewhere earlier about being embarrassed to be seen in a Pontiac. That is the problem. If more people would think for themselves and drive what they like without fear of other peoples reactions this wouldn't be an issue.

Amen!!!

This society has gotten SO bad about "what's cool" and "what's not" Everyone has to always be loved be 'the crowd' to the point that it dictates the kind of life they live. It's entirely stupid and it's sad that people are that image concious when there are so many more important things in life.

Who says it's a bad thing to drive a Pontiac anyway? Pompous assholes like a certain person that I used to post against here? (You fill in the blank) Seriously.... The last thing someone should do is let an arrogant, know-nothing, urbanite paper shuffler (media) determine what they buy and how they live.

That's why I always enjoy being the bad guy, or the guy that has the opinion completely opposite of what's accepted; because I think 'trendiness' is stupid.

In fact: I think I might try and develop a Pontiac marketing campaign on that very principle... Something that is edgy and says "You know what, YOU'RE not supposed to buy me because THEY (other bland car companies) think they know what you want and how you need to live." "Do you dare to drive Pontiac?" Or something less stupid sounding.

After all, Pontiac is and always will be GM's 'bad boy' division (To those of us who matter anyway)

Edited August 25, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Oracle of Delphi]

Exactly, well put F.O.G! I am not and have never been one of the mindless sheep! I buy what suits me, whether people like it or not. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited August 25, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[buyacargetacheck]

You and I may not like it, but in the world of consumer goods image is everything. Pontiacs are perfectly good cars (they're Chevys and Holdens after all:). But it's not the buying public's fault that Pontiac has a crappy image. The product may be good, but if the image stinks the rocket doesn't even leave the launch pad.

This is the crux of GM's problem. Their marketing blows. And marketing is more than just about advertising.

Get your new Pontiacs while you still can!

This society has gotten SO bad about "what's cool" and "what's not" Everyone has to always be loved be 'the crowd' to the point that it dictates the kind of life they live. It's entirely stupid and it's sad that people are that image concious when there are so many more important things in life.

[hyperv6]

The fact is today outside of enthusiast [being the minority] looks of a car is not the think on top of their list.

For the most part this is what they look for.

Can I afford it and how much are the payments or lease per month.

Does it have a warranty and how long is it

Is it reliable? M ost people today consult Edmunds or Conusumer Guides to buy cars vs Hot Rod or Car and Driver.

Most people want a taste ful car but nothing to radical. There are may radical designs out there and many are very nice but he plain 4 door sedan is always the top seller.

It is like Metalic or Van Halen in music. WHen they were true to their roots they made money and sold CD's. When they went more mainstream they were accused of selling out but they made even more money and sold many more CD's.

My point is in todays world while many enthusiast recall the days of edgy styling and radical appointments most people want bla today. TO survive in todays market you have to sell what the people want not what you want them to have.

I blaime air bags and helmet laws. Ever since they were required the people who would have not made it to 30 years are still with us, Society as a whole has gotten dumber and dumber with each year. It is time to cull the heard. :AH-HA_wink:

[cire]

Like others have already said, there are two issues in this situation that explain why the Solstice/Sky sales disparity exists:

1) The Solstice has been out longer and has already hit its "sweet spot" in sales like all trendy cars tend to do.

2) The Sky was surrounded by a fresh, new, exciting portfolio of vehicles that helped drive new customers into Saturn dealerships. The Solstice was surrounded by the outdated badge engineered mess that GM is trying to eliminate. I would broom Pontiac's entire lineup (except for the Solstice and G8) and bring out brand appropriate products to support Pontiac's affordable performance image.

I don't believe the Solstice in unattractive or a failure. It was a victim of circumstances that I hope GM is trying hard to fix.

[makfu]

You and I may not like it, but in the world of consumer goods image is everything. Pontiacs are perfectly good cars (they're Chevys and Holdens after all:). But it's not the buying public's fault that Pontiac has a crappy image. The product may be good, but if the image stinks the rocket doesn't even leave the launch pad.

This is the crux of GM's problem. Their marketing blows. And marketing is more than just about advertising.

Get your new Pontiacs while you still can!

Product drives image and good product can change the image of a brand very quickly. Detroit and the (ever stupid) press love to talk about brand perception and the lag between product excellence and public perception. This is fallacy as there is very little lag between perception and reality; the problem with Pontiac (and to a slightly lesser extent Buick) is the product isn't good and hasn't been good for a very, very long time. Put simply, this isn’t a marketing problem, it’s a product problem.

The G6 is by far the worst realized, decontented (in terms of chassis tuning, interior fitments, drivetrains, etc.) and poorly executed of the current Epsilon products (now that the Malibu is being replaced with a thoroughly reworked version). The G5 is a joke, the Torrent is, like the G5, a mediocre rebadge of a mediocre SUV, the Grand Prix is simply dreadful beyond words and the GTO (those still on dealer lots) are badly outdated V-Platform based Monaro’s (a good, but bland car). The Solstice is the only really good product Pontiac has, and a single niche low-volume product will not help Pontiac if the rest of their product is garbage. The Sky works because, when people walk into a Saturn showroom, they see the Aura, the Outlook, the new Vue and (soon) the Astra. Had they walked into the same showroom 24 months ago, Saturn’s sales would still be in the crapper along with Pontiac (and the Sky’s sales would be falling off the map along with the Solstice).

Now, to the question if Pontiac can be saved or if it makes sense to kill the brand? First off, killing Pontiac (or Buick) is not in the cards at the moment (for a whole list of reasons) and likely won’t happen in the near-term. GM’s grand plan is pretty simple: grow outside NA, invest strategically in NA to make sure they stem the market share slide, get NA to at least break even in the next 24 months through cutting labor costs and then consider how to potentially grow NA market share sometime in the mid-2010’s as they start to gain back some credibility and aren’t continually bleeding red ink in NA.

For GM to be successful with its turnaround strategy (I will ignore all the problems of labor contracts, etc, as that would require a far large post) GM must execute well on EVERY new launch just to maintain share. This means no more half-baked products as highlighted by the entire current Pontiac lineup (sans Solstice). The good news is that GM seems to be showing real signs that it really has, at long last, finally fixed its product development process. For the last 18 months, across the globe, GM has executed with very un-GM like consistency and has managed not to flush anything resembling a turd onto the market.

Killing Pontiac and further decimating their dealer base gains GM nothing right now (that may change). It would just further alienate GM’s dealers and accelerate retail market share decline in the short term, something GM management feels it must stop at all costs (a notion I agree with BTW). However, the problem is GM really only has the resources, as you correctly surmise, for four major brands. What Mark LaNeve and crew have decided to do is group GMC, Buick and Pontiac into a single amalgamated full-line fourth brand. Now, I don’t know if this is a workable long-term strategy, as no one in the automobile world has tried this before (Lincoln-Mercury doesn’t count because it’s hardly full-line, and both brands have been mismanaged from day one), but as it stands right now, GMC-Buick-Pontiac doesn’t have the product it needs to even validate if this strategy can work.

Let’s imagine, however, a world in which the model lineup in GMC-Buick-Pontiac showrooms looks a little different:

• Pontiac with a really good G6 (high-feature power-trains all-around, G8 like interiors, etc.), the new G8 and perhaps a really good low-end car (think Americanized WRX’ish entry-sport) and the Solstice.

• Buick with a Statesman based Park Avenue (identical to the Chinese Market model), a plush Epsilon mid-tier Lexus ES like FWD car, a sexy low-volume halo coupe and the Enclave.

• GMC with its current lineup of full-size SUV’s, Trucks and the Arcadia.

Now that would be a showroom with some compelling product and would likely drive the kind of volume that GM has been trying to build for GMC-Buick-Pontiac shops by shoveling crap like the Torrent and the G5. The obvious rebuttal to this statement is that the volume segments of each of these sub-brands would overlap full-line brands like Saturn and Chevy. My assertion is that if GM designs the product with unique and compelling characteristics and styling, this doesn’t matter. It is fully possible to sell essentially the same product, but differentiate it in compelling fashion (this is done successfully today by many automakers). The notion that GM should remodel itself into a clone of Toyota, wherein Chevy makes mainstream products and Cadillac makes luxury products, is absolutely, in my mind, the worst advice GM could follow (and, as Toyota is demonstrating with Scion, is obsolete thinking). GM DOES, however, need to start properly leveraging its brands by producing top-notch cars with striking styling and compelling driving characteristics that fit the targeted demographic.

Ultimately, it all comes down to product. There is a good chance we would not be having this discussion if Pontiac (and Buick) had really excellent product. Right now, the product is anything but great and THAT is the ongoing root cause of the perception issues facing these brands.

-Mak

(08 CTS with 6 on the floor… when it finally arrives)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I don't believe the Solstice in unattractive or a failure. It was a victim of circumstances that I hope GM is trying hard to fix.

I agree... And IMO the same could be said about the GTO (and I didn't even like that car) FWIW I'd buy a Solstice over a Sky any day.

The G6 is by far the worst realized, decontented (in terms of chassis tuning, interior fitments, drivetrains, etc.) and poorly executed of the current Epsilon products (now that the Malibu is being replaced with a thoroughly reworked version). The G5 is a joke, the Torrent is, like the G5, a mediocre rebadge of a mediocre SUV, the Grand Prix is simply dreadful beyond words and the GTO (those still on dealer lots) are badly outdated V-Platform based Monaro’s (a good, but bland car). The Solstice is the only really good product Pontiac has, and a single niche low-volume product will not help Pontiac if the rest of their product is garbage. The Sky works because, when people walk into a Saturn showroom, they see the Aura, the Outlook, the new Vue and (soon) the Astra. Had they walked into the same showroom 24 months ago, Saturn’s sales would still be in the crapper along with Pontiac (and the Sky’s sales would be falling off the map along with the Solstice).

That entire post is spot on...

[thegriffon]

If this is true, my take is that the Pontiac Solstice, as hailed as it is/was, offers absolutely nothing over its Saturn Sky cousin. Now, I do prefer Sky over Solstice for styling and equipment …

And that is really all that should read into the relative success or failure of the Solstice v the Sky. Styling in particular is dramatically different, enough to sway most people one way or the other. There are a few people who like both equally well, but I would think the majority have a preference for one or the other on styling alone. It's only natural that more buyers will prefer the styling of one over the other. Going into a long theory about how this shows people dislike Pontiac so much it should be dropped is pure sophistry.

[prinzSD]

buyacargetacheck= >>"I... live in... Los Angeles, CA."<<

Oh; this explains so much!

Agreed. I live in the San Francisco area and I am sick of the elitist attitude of the west (Los Angelos in particular) and east coast states. They believe they dictate fashion, style etc to everyone else and think the people in the states between the coasts are bible thumpers, redneck and many other slurs. In my area their are plenty of young people who drive G6. What does it it mean? Nothing, just like young people driving imports in LA means nothing.

[prinzSD]

And that is really all that should read into the relative success or failure of the Solstice v the Sky. Styling in particular is dramatically different, enough to sway most people one way or the other. There are a few people who like both equally well, but I would think the majority have a preference for one or the other on styling alone. It's only natural that more buyers will prefer the styling of one over the other. Going into a long theory about how this shows people dislike Pontiac so much it should be dropped is pure sophistry.

Exactly and you can see this play out within my own family. I like the Solstice and my 17 year old son prefers the chisled looks of the Sky. Both cars while similar are what I call successful platform engineering which look different enough as to cause people to like one over the other. I think GM has been successful in this regard and should continue to implement this process and stay clear from blatent and unappealing badge jobs like the Cobalt and G5 which are obvious clones.

Edited August 30, 2007 by prinzSD

[buyacargetacheck]

It's clear that GM has bundled Pontiac, Buick and GMC because they intend to kill one or more of them at some point. This will reduce the lawsuit risk. GM will continue to throw pretty good product at PBG but it won't be enough. The G8 and the Ute (if that rumor is true) will bomb because both cars are pretty dull looking. The "Excitement" division gets no pass for a dull looking offering. Buick's image is beyond repair in the US. As good as it is its real competition (Mercury) is dying and its fantasy competitor (Lexus) is so far ahead in quality, performance, features, number of offerings and freshness day in and day out that Buick doesn't have a prayer. GM is too slow, too poor, and the competition never rests. GMC will eventually get the ax whenever Toyota starts getting close to the Silverado in sales. Sierra sales are just cannibalizing Chevy ones. Some GM brands are going to close down - I've been watching this saga for a long time now.

Killing Pontiac and further decimating their dealer base gains GM nothing right now (that may change). It would just further alienate GM’s dealers and accelerate retail market share decline in the short term, something GM management feels it must stop at all costs (a notion I agree with BTW). However, the problem is GM really only has the resources, as you correctly surmise, for four major brands. What Mark LaNeve and crew have decided to do is group GMC, Buick and Pontiac into a single amalgamated full-line fourth brand. Now, I don’t know if this is a workable long-term strategy, as no one in the automobile world has tried this before (Lincoln-Mercury doesn’t count because it’s hardly full-line, and both brands have been mismanaged from day one), but as it stands right now, GMC-Buick-Pontiac doesn’t have the product it needs to even validate if this strategy can work.

[buyacargetacheck]

Southern California DOES lead the country in fashion, style and trends. It's been that way since the end of WWII. It's why GM has a largely unknown styling presence in LA and why all the majors are here in one form or another. It's all quite independent of your jealousy or disdain for it.

By the way, you'd be surprised how many "Bible thumpers" there are here in Gomorrah. Much more conservative here than, say, SF.

Agreed. I live in the San Francisco area and I am sick of the elitist attitude of the west (Los Angelos in particular) and east coast states. They believe they dictate fashion, style etc to everyone else and think the people in the states between the coasts are bible thumpers, redneck and many other slurs.

[prinzSD]

Southern California DOES lead the country in fashion, style and trends. It's been that way since the end of WWII. It's why GM has a largely unknown styling presence in LA and why all the majors are here in one form or another. It's all quite independent of your jealousy or disdain for it.

By the way, you'd be surprised how many "Bible thumpers" there are here in Gomorrah. Much more conservative here than, say, SF.

Jealousy has nothing to dowith it. I am tired of the caost states acting like they are superior. The last time I check the middle states were part of the United States and I see no reason to put them down as so many west coaster like to do. I agree with you that I have a disdain for the LA mentality. Evertime I visit my sister in Manhattan beach I can not stand being around so many fake people(including my sister).

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's clear that GM has bundled Pontiac, Buick and GMC because they intend to kill one or more of them at some point.

Umm, okay? So consolidation automatically means killing off brands? Cadburry recently consolidated RC and DR. Pepper; does that mean that one or the other is going to die soon? I think not.

Pepsi Consolidated KFC and Taco Bell into a one stop two flavor restaurant... Does that mean one of them is going to be killed off?

The parent company of Peterbilt and Kenworth consolidated those two brands a few years ago? Are they dieing?

Consolidation = efficiency; NOT DEATH In fact, NOT consolidating in this hyper competitive market is probably certain death.

This will reduce the lawsuit risk.

But that does not change the fact that GM will have to pay millions to buy back franchises, which leads right back into COST and one of the primary reasons why GM should not and will not kill any divisions.

GM will continue to throw pretty good product at PBG but it won't be enough. The G8 and the Ute (if that rumor is true) will bomb because both cars are pretty dull looking.

Sure, they're dull to some of us, but I have a hard time thinking the G8 will have ANY trouble what-so-ever meeting it's sales goal. It isn't a niche coupe with pre-existing baggage like the GTO was. This is an attractive (albeit dull) sedan with up to date performance that has already been praised by the cynical media.

The "Excitement" division gets no pass for a dull looking offering.

Judging by the reaction to 90's Pontiacs and the G6 GXP; it gets no passes period apparently. So which will it be?

Buick's image is beyond repair in the US.

So that's why the Enclave is selling so well?

As good as it is its real competition (Mercury) is dying

No official plans have been announced and Buick has always had a bit more of an identity than Mercury (Which is historically a Ford with special trim)

and its fantasy competitor (Lexus) is so far ahead in quality, performance, features, number of offerings and freshness day in and day out that Buick doesn't have a prayer.

So that's why Buick tied Lexus in the latest quality survey?

GM is too slow,

True that.

GMC will eventually get the ax

I have a hard time seeing GM's 2nd largest and most profittable division getting the ax. Especially given it's conquest rate.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Southern California DOES lead the country in fashion, style and trends.

Yep, and therein lies the problem...

It's all quite independent of your jealousy or disdain for it.

That is exactly the condescending attitude he is reffering to.

By the way, you'd be surprised how many "Bible thumpers" there are here in Gomorrah. Much more conservative here than, say, SF.

And that is exactly the kind of judgemental stereotyping he's talking about.

No offense, because you seem to be a pretty logical guy but I personally just wish SoCal would go ahead and sink into the ocean or float on over to their Japanese masters where they belong. But that's just my :twocents:

And that's coming from the east coast; home to many self-loathing arrogant americans.

Edited August 30, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[thegriffon]

The fact is today outside of enthusiast [being the minority] looks of a car is not the think on top of their list.

For the most part this is what they look for.

Can I afford it and how much are the payments or lease per month.

Does it have a warranty and how long is it

Is it reliable? M ost people today consult Edmunds or Conusumer Guides to buy cars vs Hot Rod or Car and Driver.

Most people want a taste ful car but nothing to radical. There are may radical designs out there and many are very nice but he plain 4 door sedan is always the top seller.

It is like Metalic or Van Halen in music. WHen they were true to their roots they made money and sold CD's. When they went more mainstream they were accused of selling out but they made even more money and sold many more CD's.

My point is in todays world while many enthusiast recall the days of edgy styling and radical appointments most people want bla today. TO survive in todays market you have to sell what the people want not what you want them to have.

I blaime air bags and helmet laws. Ever since they were required the people who would have not made it to 30 years are still with us, Society as a whole has gotten dumber and dumber with each year. It is time to cull the heard. :AH-HA_wink:

As long as it's not based on spelling and punctuation eh? Edited August 30, 2007 by thegriffon

[Robert Hall]

Yep, and therein lies the problem...

That is exactly the condescending attitude he is reffering to.

And that is exactly the kind of judgemental stereotyping he's talking about.

No offense, because you seem to be a pretty logical guy but I personally just wish SoCal would go ahead and sink into the ocean or float on over to their Japanese masters where they belong. But that's just my :twocents:

And that's coming from the east coast; home to many self-loathing arrogant americans.

Apparently at one time Orange County was full of bible thumpers...it seems like they all moved to Colorado Springs in the '90s..

Outside of the major metro areas, there are vast parts of 'middle America' I avoid...too many conservatives, gun nuts, and bible thumpers for my tastes..but I do like metro Denver, Chicago, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, areas I've spent considerable time in..

[The O.C.]

Jealousy has nothing to dowith it. I am tired of the caost states acting like they are superior. The last time I check the middle states were part of the United States and I see no reason to put them down as so many west coaster like to do. I agree with you that I have a disdain for the LA mentality. Evertime I visit my sister in Manhattan beach I can not stand being around so many fake people(including my sister).

We aren't talking about the people in CA or NY......we aren't debating the merits of living coastal versus midwestern......we aren't talking about values and morals.

All we are simply talking about is the unescapable impact on the automotive market that the coasts impact. Something GM turns a (somewhat) blind eye to.

If you take all of the emotion out of it.....and simply look at the facts.....the sheer population in these markets....and the sheer number of new cars sold in these markets (Southern California is the #1 largest auto market in the country.....the NY tri-state area is the #2 largest auto market in the country) and the sheer impact of the media exposure in these markets (they get reversed....NY tri-state area is the #1 largest media market, southern California is the #2 largest media market) and you have quite a serious impact.

One simple fact is mind-boggling.....and I've stated it before. In the greater L.A/Orange County/Inland Empire region (not counting San Diego to the south) there are over 17,000,000 people. That's 17,000,000 potential consumers for new cars. That's over a million people more than the entire states of Michigan and Indiana combined...!

And don't you think that a major market that has that kind of potential impact should be a major focus for all manufacturers?

A friend of mine that works for Audi in L.A. said that in Germany, at Corporate headquarters, they have a conference room with huge whiteboards on the wall with all performance metrics listed for Audi USA.....one whiteboard for the Western Region, one whiteboard for the Central/SE Region, one whiteboard for the Eastern Region.....AND there's a fourth whiteboard up there....one JUST for Los Angeles.......

Now THAT'S focus....

[buyacargetacheck]

Ironically, as poorly as GM and Ford do in SoCal it's still their largest market. Galpin Ford, based in the San Fernando Valley (THE Valley), is Ford's largest dealer in the world. Escalades, H2s, H3s, Tahoes, Corvettes, Mustangs and Suburbans are everywhere here despite gas prices being among the highest in the country.

We aren't talking about the people in CA or NY......we aren't debating the merits of living coastal versus midwestern......we aren't talking about values and morals.

All we are simply talking about is the unescapable impact on the automotive market that the coasts impact. Something GM turns a (somewhat) blind eye to.

If you take all of the emotion out of it.....and simply look at the facts.....the sheer population in these markets....and the sheer number of new cars sold in these markets (Southern California is the #1 largest auto market in the country.....the NY tri-state area is the #2 largest auto market in the country) and the sheer impact of the media exposure in these markets (they get reversed....NY tri-state area is the #1 largest media market, southern California is the #2 largest media market) and you have quite a serious impact.

One simple fact is mind-boggling.....and I've stated it before. In the greater L.A/Orange County/Inland Empire region (not counting San Diego to the south) there are over 17,000,000 people. That's 17,000,000 potential consumers for new cars. That's over a million people more than the entire states of Michigan and Indiana combined...!

And don't you think that a major market that has that kind of potential impact should be a major focus for all manufacturers?

A friend of mine that works for Audi in L.A. said that in Germany, at Corporate headquarters, they have a conference room with huge whiteboards on the wall with all performance metrics listed for Audi USA.....one whiteboard for the Western Region, one whiteboard for the Central/SE Region, one whiteboard for the Eastern Region.....AND there's a fourth whiteboard up there....one JUST for Los Angeles.......

Now THAT'S focus....

[Camino LS6]

We're still on this?!

Let me sum it up:

1) no brands are going away despite the wishes of some here.

2) California is a self-important, condescending, pain in the ass.

We done now?

[Oracle of Delphi]

We're still on this?!

Let me sum it up:

1) no brands are going away despite the wishes of some here.

2) California is a self-important, condescending, pain in the ass.

We done now?

No we are not. I think you may be surprised at what's just around the corner so to speak. Almost as much if not more than you were, when you found out there is no Chevy El Camino just around the corner. Time will tell, that's all I'm going to say on it. :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

I thought you were done posting about this, Mr. Cryptic.

Time will indeed tell. The flavor of your recent posts on the topic leads me to believe that you are counting on the failure of a few products for the future to unfold as you suggest.

On that, I believe, you may be the one to be surprised.

[The O.C.]

I thought you were done posting about this, Mr. Cryptic.

Time will indeed tell. The flavor of your recent posts on the topic leads me to believe that you are counting on the failure of a few products for the future to unfold as you suggest.

On that, I believe, you may be the one to be surprised.

I don't know if ur referring to me as "Mr. Cryptic" but let me assure you I'm not "counting on the failure of a few products".....just pointing out the realities of the marketplace....something GM has been reluctant to do.....

I believe, if you review my Enclave post, you'll see quite a gushing review from me on that product.......

[Oracle of Delphi]

I thought you were done posting about this, Mr. Cryptic.

Time will indeed tell. The flavor of your recent posts on the topic leads me to believe that you are counting on the failure of a few products for the future to unfold as you suggest.

On that, I believe, you may be the one to be surprised.

You are right on product failure, but I'm not just speaking about the G8 failing here. What concerns me more is if the public starts to swallow that Toyota trucks are better than GM's, then we have problems right here in River City my friends. Trucks are GM's bread & butter, the big money maker. If you cut sales in trucks and then have individual product failures such as G8, Aura, Malibu, then you are looking at maybe 2 brand cuts, possibly up to 3, if this scenario plays out.

I like you Camino and respect your opinions, but on this subject we just disagree. I see a possible future that scares the sh*t out of me and we just can't keep sticking our heads in the sand and hope it goes away.

[Camino LS6]

You are right on product failure, but I'm not just speaking about the G8 failing here. What concerns me more is if the public starts to swallow that Toyota trucks are better than GM's, then we have problems right here in River City my friends. Trucks are GM's bread & butter, the big money maker. If you cut sales in trucks and then have individual product failures such as G8, Aura, Malibu, then you are looking at maybe 2 brand cuts, possibly up to 3, if this scenario plays out.

I like you Camino and respect your opinions, but on this subject we just disagree. I see a possible future that scares the sh*t out of me and we just can't keep sticking our heads in the sand and hope it goes away.

I don't believe that losing trucks will happen, although a pitched battle is a forgone conclusion. Further, I don't believe that G8,Aura, and Malibu will fail. The nightmare scenario you lay out is certainly quite scary, in fact if it comes to pass, the end to the brands in question will be the end of GM itself. I do know the stakes, and how deadly serious the reality is, yet I am encouraged by the steps already taken and the product on its way.

The brands are a strength, if handled properly, and I see that happening more and more. My major fear is that it simply isn't happening fast enough. I could type endless paragraphs of detail in how I see all of this, but I will let my simple statements suffice for this thread.

The best part of the picture is that Toyota's trucks really aren't better than GM's or Ford's, in fact they are inferior in many ways. The full-size truck market is the domestics' to lose if they falter- I don't think they will.

Side note: No, O.C. I wasn't referring to you.

[buyacargetacheck]

It may not even take a general perception that "Toyota trucks are better." Toyota is showing an aggressive willingness to buy market share for a quick impact. Within 10 years the Tundra will be selling a full-line of trucks that will rival the Silverado, F-Series and Ram in sales. I'd expect them to tap their stakes in Hino and Isuzu (diesels) to give them even more credibility.

What concerns me more is if the public starts to swallow that Toyota trucks are better than GM's, then we have problems right here in River City my friends.

[The O.C.]

Side note: No, O.C. I wasn't referring to you.

Oh, okay....

[Camino LS6]

It may not even take a general perception that "Toyota trucks are better." Toyota is showing an aggressive willingness to buy market share for a quick impact. Within 10 years the Tundra will be selling a full-line of trucks that will rival the Silverado, F-Series and Ram in sales. I'd expect them to tap their stakes in Hino and Isuzu (diesels) to give them even more credibility.

Toyota will try, and most likely be willing to lose money on this for a long time. Eventually though, they will need to cut their losses and accept that this battle is one that they can never win. The Silverado and the F-150 will never again be allowed to age very long. GM and Ford know that survival depends on beating Toyota at the truck game. Dodge is a wildcard though...

[haypops]

A friend of mine that works for Audi in L.A. said that in Germany, at Corporate headquarters, they have a conference room with huge whiteboards on the wall with all performance metrics listed for Audi USA.....one whiteboard for the Western Region, one whiteboard for the Central/SE Region, one whiteboard for the Eastern Region.....AND there's a fourth whiteboard up there....one JUST for Los Angeles.......

Now THAT'S focus....

How's that white board working out for them? I see more Porsche vehicles than Audi! Certainly there is no comparison to Mercedes and especially BMW.

On the other hand 1 in every 5 of GM's sales is in Florida+California. There are frequent California special option packages for California cars. What exactly isn't GM doing that you would think would raise their CA friendliness?

[The O.C.]

How's that white board working out for them? I see more Porsche vehicles than Audi! Certainly there is no comparison to Mercedes and especially BMW.

On the other hand 1 in every 5 of GM's sales is in Florida+California. There are frequent California special option packages for California cars. What exactly isn't GM doing that you would think would raise their CA friendliness?

GM's market share in CA is like in the low-teens......

Aside from trucks, about all they sell are rentals/fleets here.

The main problem is perception......very few people out here want to be seen driving a "domestic" as they call them......(somehow pickups and SUVs get some sort of pass though....) Strangely...driving a "domestic" has fallen even behind driving a "Korean" in this state.....

[Camino LS6]

GM's market share in CA is like in the low-teens......

Aside from trucks, about all they sell are rentals/fleets here.

The main problem is perception......very few people out here want to be seen driving a "domestic" as they call them......(somehow pickups and SUVs get some sort of pass though....) Strangely...driving a "domestic" has fallen even behind driving a "Korean" in this state.....

And you wonder why I hate California.