2 G.M. Brands, a Similar Car, but Very Different Results

[Flybrian]

Think I'd consider getting a job if I were driving a Hyundai or Kia.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The best part of the picture is that Toyota's trucks really aren't better than GM's or Ford's, in fact they are inferior in many ways. The full-size truck market is the domestics' to lose if they falter- I don't think they will.

Yeah, but here's the kicker: All that has to happen is for the media and import buyers to start believing that Toyota trucks are better than domestic trucks, they don't REALLY have to be better.

This same thing has happened in minivans, SUVs and a large part of the car market. As happy as I am to see GM doing well and as competitive as the new products are, I still believe Detroit will lose the market and very bad thing lie ahead for our industry.

What pisses me off the most is that Detroit has now BECOME a victum of both our society and the pop culture that runs it. They've passed the point of self motivated rescue; either the public gets it or the public doesn't. I'm willing to bet that the media will help the public 'not get it' as much as possible. The wrting is already on the wall with the countless Toyota reliability cover ups and the constant "good, but not good enough" ever-so-romantic reviews of GM product that frankly, kicks the competitions ass.

Strangely...driving a "domestic" has fallen even behind driving a "Korean" in this state.....

That reflects the media: they rate Korean higher than domestic and it's becoming that way everywhere... The same will happen with Chinese offerings, better or not, they will be BILLED as better.

[haypops]

GM's market share in CA is like in the low-teens......

Aside from trucks, about all they sell are rentals/fleets here.

I think that you are being to pessimistic here. I see plenty of Domestic "cars" in my my neighbors and relative driveways. The % is no doubt lower than in other parts of the u.S., but that is just because Toyota's are thousands of dollars less than GM cars here.

[The O.C.]

That reflects the media: they rate Korean higher than domestic and it's becoming that way everywhere... The same will happen with Chinese offerings, better or not, they will be BILLED as better.

....the Koreans are building damn good cars now. The last Kia Spectra rental I had was much more nicely-executed than any Cobalt rental I've been in.

The new Veracruz, while I wouldn't buy one over a Lambda, is quite a nicely-done product and certainly more-than competitive......

Sonata is superior to the current Malibu.....and the new Malibu will only just match it or barely surpass it.....

[The O.C.]

I think that you are being to pessimistic here. I see plenty of Domestic "cars" in my my neighbors and relative driveways. The % is no doubt lower than in other parts of the u.S., but that is just because Toyota's are thousands of dollars less than GM cars here.

Most of the late-model domestic cars that I see here are rentals. Can't remember the last time I saw a "retail" LaCrosse, Impala, G6, etc. In fact, seems the Impala SS is the new queen of the rental fleets....I've seen a ton of them recently....all with bar-code stickers in the window.

Go to any GM dealership in this state.....you see fleets of trucks and SUVs in the lots....along with plenty of pre-owned inventory. Where are the new cars?

[haypops]

Go to any GM dealership in this state.....you see fleets of trucks and SUVs in the lots....along with plenty of pre-owned inventory. Where are the new cars?

When I purchased my HHR last month a mini war erupted between salesmen as my salesman mistakenly thought the buyers at the next table were trying to buy the same HHR. When we got to the FYI office our paperwork was momentarily mistaken for a third HHR sale. A good deal will bring the customers out of the woodwork. Toyota has plenty of good deals here.

Certainly GM sales are heavy into trucks and SUVs in California but just not to the extent you see from your perspective. I've driven cross country several times in the past 3-8 years and the prevalence of "trucks" only increases as we leave California.

I do agree with you comments about Hyundai/Kia in the previous post. They are quite acceptable vehicles and a match for the second tier Asian and Chrysler products.

[The O.C.]

When I purchased my HHR last month a mini war erupted between salesmen as my salesman mistakenly thought the buyers at the next table were trying to buy the same HHR. When we got to the FYI office our paperwork was momentarily mistaken for a third HHR sale. A good deal will bring the customers out of the woodwork. Toyota has plenty of good deals here.

Certainly GM sales are heavy into trucks and SUVs in California but just not to the extent you see from your perspective. I've driven cross country several times in the past 3-8 years and the prevalence of "trucks" only increases as we leave California.

I do agree with you comments about Hyundai/Kia in the previous post. They are quite acceptable vehicles and a match for the second tier Asian and Chrysler products.

As good as I have to admit the Spectra was....I still would have a hard time buying one. I'd still get a Cobalt over that.....but that's MY perception problem...I admit it.....I have a problem seeing myself owning a "Korean" car. But I do admit they have come a damn long way......

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Sonata is superior to the current Malibu.....and the new Malibu will only just match it or barely surpass it....

[CARBIZ]

Yeah, but here's the kicker: All that has to happen is for the media and import buyers to start believing that Toyota trucks are better than domestic trucks, they don't REALLY have to be better.

This same thing has happened in minivans, SUVs and a large part of the car market. As happy as I am to see GM doing well and as competitive as the new products are, I still believe Detroit will lose the market and very bad thing lie ahead for our industry.

What pisses me off the most is that Detroit has now BECOME a victum of both our society and the pop culture that runs it. They've passed the point of self motivated rescue; either the public gets it or the public doesn't. I'm willing to bet that the media will help the public 'not get it' as much as possible. The wrting is already on the wall with the countless Toyota reliability cover ups and the constant "good, but not good enough" ever-so-romantic reviews of GM product that frankly, kicks the competitions ass.

That reflects the media: they rate Korean higher than domestic and it's becoming that way everywhere... The same will happen with Chinese offerings, better or not, they will be BILLED as better.

Don't forget the 'herd mentality.' I routinely walk or drive through Rosedale (arguably Canada's 'richest' district, just north of the city core) and 80% of the vehicles are BMW, Mercedes, etc., due to their close proximity to those dealers and the herd mentality. In most neighborhoods downtown, the imports vastly outnumber Detroit. But that is Toronto.

Once you leave the city, Detroit rules. I was at my buddy's cottage for the weekend, and all the farms and homes there drive Detroit metal - upwards of 80%. We boated to a lakeside resort, populated largely by tourists from Toronto, and again, lots of Toyotas and Hondas in the restaurant parking lot.

People cannot think for themselves. It is a depressing fact. As the imports become more successful and open more locations in smaller communities, their numbers can only hope to go up. It sickens me, but we are witnessing the splintering of the market. As has been discussed before, GM will settle out around 20% market share, with Toyota probably around 15-18%, while the rest will all be around 10%. Those are my predictions. The Press will eventually grow bored of Toyota. Toyota is already juggling too many balls in the air.

[regfootball]

wow.

ok, to catch up.

there are a few reasons sky is outselling solstice. 1- sky is more chiseled and that is in vogue right now. when the solstice was conceived, it had a more curvaceous form that was in vogue. things changed between the concept and release of the production version. the solstice looked dated coming out of the gate. 2- many would consider the sky interior to be nicer. it has the tall center stack look that is envogue. the solstice has the curved wrapround look that again was cool awhile ago. 3-most of saturn's dealers are in metro areas. Metro areas have more money and folks with money are attracted to unique products like convertibles.....people with small pontiac dealers in the heartland have no money for frivolous things like convertibles. 4-pontiac dealers gouged with the solstice first coming out. look at how that destroyed the gto. 5-most of the reviews of kappa when new were the solstice. so most of the denegrating comments for kappa were towards the pontiac. sky received a media pass on the negatives 6-pontiac's image problem is very real. the g8 and alpha pontiac will fix it over time but GM is way too slow with changes. Vibe and torrent should go, but then chevy could not make up for those sales losses. GM simply does not invest enough resources in getting new product here continuously and they trip over themselves doing it. As good as their new products are, I would grade them as an F in terms of getting new product to market for all their new brands. Nissan turned their ship around in about 3 years with no resources. GM turned maybe 15% of their model lines around in the same period of time. Of course, GM has the union in the way, but by this point they need to decide to either bust the union or simply build all their cars overseas.

pontiac's recent image in the public is still grand am and front drive grand prix, so that will take a long time to repair.

if i were pontiac i would nix the vibe and torrent. build for heavy focus on g8, with many permutations, including AWD and wagon. an alpha G6 with similar skill set, and AWD would be nice. where folks might disagree with me is that pontiac should have a fwd car. i have read that in addition to the alpha, pontiac will get an epsilon 2 sedan. i think this is a good idea. i would make it the entry sedan, maybe call it grand am, not g6. make the alpha g6. make the eps 2 the value / volume pontiac so the dealers can keep the door open but not cheese on it. the G6 and G8 will have special names and be the specialized hardware.

then, i would fix the solstice flaws. NVH. interior. add a retractable hardtop coupe maybe. fix the convertible top mechanism to leave real trunk space.

GTO should be here at G8 launch. maybe we do need a firebird too, who knows. Beyond that, Pontiac might need a credible compact to go up against the Evo, etc. a crossover in the vein of the cx-7 would be nice. the torrent is not quite that.

i would bet the new yorkers have a problem with CA claiming to be the center of the universe. everyone else outside of those two birthplaces of Jesus CHrist would argue that both NY/east coast and LA/west coast is pretty irrelevant in terms of anything else besides self-effacing behavior.

CA/west coast has managed to create their own little microeconomics that allow them to function so that a BMW 3 series is a bread and butter car. that's all fine and good. there are lots of big jobs out there and they managed to create the environment to get those. but lots of stuff is far too expensive, so it really makes the benefit of having all those 'premier' jobs not worth much.

I was able to visit orange county recently and really i can't say I got enough about the area other than too many fat and old women trying to look like they are 20 and fashionable and as a whole, the whole part i visited felt like a big never ending shopping mall parking lot / development. there really did not seem to be any downtown epicenter of culture that had vibrancy to it.

CA may be the center of hipness and income but its also likely closer than anyone else to pending financial and social collpase, in addition to the fact that CA is a far more legislated state than anywhere else.

I know i walked through the condos my co. was building out there for like 2 mill and I am thinking.....2 million with most of the scenery being bare mountains and naked rooftop on buildings below. certainly not a lavish interior. Not a lot for your money..haha, ok by me. funds the corporate coffers, folks overpaying. BUt you can see why a BMW 3 seems like a good value then. its an economy car by many's defintions out there.

Edited September 3, 2007 by regfootball

[The O.C.]

there are a few reasons sky is outselling solstice.

I was able to visit orange county recently and really i can't say I got enough about the area other than too many fat and old women trying to look like they are 20 and fashionable and as a whole, the whole part i visited felt like a big never ending shopping mall parking lot / development. there really did not seem to be any downtown epicenter of culture that had vibrancy to it.

CA may be the center of hipness and income but its also likely closer than anyone else to pending financial and social collpase, in addition to the fact that CA is a far more legislated state than anywhere else.

I can sum up the Solstice/SKY situation in a few words......Pontiac dealerships and old-school GM mentality....versus Saturn's more forward-thinking way of doing business. That's it.

OK....before you guys bitch me out for it.....Reg goaded me into yet another CA dissertation....it's his fault.

As far as CA and O.C......where the hell where you in the O.C...? Near Disneyland? Because if that's where you were.....you didn't even see the "real" O.C. Orange County is celebrated for it's world-class symphony and theatre (ever been to any of the South Coast/Costa Mesa playhouses?), dining (in non-chain restaurants even! alas!), and arts (Laguna Beach Festival of the Arts, anyone?) The O.C. has far more culture than most "suburban" enclaves around the country. And you can get some of this culture without having to go into a "city" such as L.A. to the north.

Do you know anything about the economy here? Do you know the statistics? This is one of the most economically sound regions in the country right now.....job and industry-wise. "Financial and social collapse?" Get real.....

Furthermore, the O.C.'s vibrancy is bolstered by it's neighbor to the north, Los Angeles....which is a pacific-rim city....arguably an favorable economic situation to be in when you consider everything going on globally and in Asia. Economically in the U.S. I'd argue that New York is it's only rival. Los Angeles is 2nd only to New York as a financial center....it leads the country in the fashion and design industry....it is still the (barely) capital of the entertainment industry....2nd largest media market in the country (also behind New York) AND California as a state is the largest and most vibrant agricultural region in the country.

And once again....I love how you try to put words into my (and others') mouths....like saying we think CA is "the center of the universe." I never said anything to the sort. But you can't ignore the statistics.....the size and power of the auto market here.....the size of the economy here....the sheer population....

(Of course those economic strengths do give us our negatives......traffic, lots of people, crushing housing costs, illegal immigration.....but many people like me appreciate and enjoy the positives....which far outweigh the negatives.)

Plus it's an awesome place to be.....IF you are a car enthusiast.

[makfu]

....the Koreans are building damn good cars now. The last Kia Spectra rental I had was much more nicely-executed than any Cobalt rental I've been in.

The new Veracruz, while I wouldn't buy one over a Lambda, is quite a nicely-done product and certainly more-than competitive......

Sonata is superior to the current Malibu.....and the new Malibu will only just match it or barely surpass it.....

I don't know about the Kia, but the brand-new 07 Hyundai Accent monthly rental I have right now (while waiting for my 08 CTS) is an absolute pile of crap.

1. Driver seat arm-rest BROKE OFF after 1 day with the car

2. Terrible grouching, metal creaking from somewhere rear of the C pillar when cresting the lip of any driveway or big bump

3. Rattle coming from somewhere around the rear driver-side door and rear seat deck

4. Jiggly, jello-like body structure with pronounced steering column shake on bad road surfaces

5. Dash buzzes under hard acceleration (which is always)

6. Suspension tuning that is both jittery AND oscillating on undulating road surfaces (like old-school Detroit suspension setups - boing, boing, boing...)

7. Incredibly gutless engine that can't maintain 75MPH in 4th going up even the mildest interstate grades

8. Transmission hunts between 2nd and 3rd on moderate inclines

9. Shifting between neutral and drive while the car is in motion causes a terrible "THUNK!" from the trans

Having lived with this car nearly a month, I can honestly say that it makes me dream of the luxury of a Corolla or even a Cobalt. The only good points are that exterior fit and finish is pretty good and interior textures used on the plastics look pretty good. Sadly, those two points, which impart the impression of quality, will likely sell a number of these otherwise atrociously rubbish cars.

-Mak

08 CTS FE3 3.6 DI with 6 on the floor (on order)

[Flybrian]

When you turn the ignition key, does the steering column shake? That's another Koren econobox trait.

[makfu]

When you turn the ignition key, does the steering column shake? That's another Koren econobox trait.

Nope, it doesn't do that. HOWEVER, I did forget it's most endearing trait: it has (what appears to be) only an 8.5 gallon gas tank. Even with it's 30MPG fuel economy, I have to fill the damn thing every 250 miles or so (sooner if city diving).

Not since the Pontiac Sunfire have I hated a car this much.

-Mak

08 CTS FE3 3.6 DI with 6 on the floor (on order)

[CARBIZ]

The Koreans have smartened up as far as making their vehicles LOOK a lot better than they used to. O.C. is correct in that the new Sonata is a nice looking car, inside and out, but the power/ride and handing of the current generation Malibu is better. The quality of plastics and 'fit and finish' of the current Sonata is quite nice. The Korean cars have always been under-powered - that is their Achilles heal. They still haven't figured out how to match the power and refinement of better offerings. It is obvious that Hyundai has tried hard with the Sonata; less so with the Accent.

[regfootball]

korean cars have THAT SMELL

[daves87rs]

After reading all of that..wow.

And all I can say is that I'm more worried about Buick...

All this talk about low volume cars....as long as they are selling and sales aren't off huge-I'm not that worried...

It's the mass production ones that are important...the Soli and Sky are doing fine as image cars at the moment...

They are not the solution, the are just here to help...

[The O.C.]

O.C. is correct in that the new Sonata is a nice looking car, inside and out, but the power/ride and handing of the current generation Malibu is better.

I totally disagree on this one. While the new Malibu I expect to eclipse the current Sonata, the current Malibu isn't nearly as polished. I've had plenty of Malibus as rental cars (with the 3.5L pushrod V6) and had the chance to drive a V6 Sonata from Atlanta to Tampa and was very impressed with the performance and smoothness of the 3.3L V6....and the ride-and-handling, while not a sport sedan, was tight, quiet, and absorbing without being floaty. It was a great road car (with the exception of seats that didn't support as much as I would have liked over the multi-hour trip.)

[longtooth]

Normally we see eye to eye on things, but giving the Kappa to Chevrolet would not have been feasible, at least in a high volume mode as you want it to be. GM is restricting the line speed to a certain number of vehicles per hour, I'm not permitted to tell you what that number is, but it is low. GM has it's own corporate reasons for doing this. So even if Chevy got the Kappa, it would not have been able to sell it in much higher volume than what is being sold now.

damn small volume. we're a "boutique" operation. we'd like to build the Volt here as well...

[Oracle of Delphi]

damn small volume. we're a "boutique" operation. we'd like to build the Volt here as well...

That is a goal that Wilmington would be well suited for. :AH-HA_wink:

[longtooth]

That is a goal that Wilmington would be well suited for. :AH-HA_wink:

I have heard that Mr. Lutz favors this as well. Would be another jewel in the crown. Some type of announcement'd due soon wouldn't it?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Nope, it doesn't do that. HOWEVER, I did forget it's most endearing trait: it has (what appears to be) only an 8.5 gallon gas tank. Even with it's 30MPG fuel economy, I have to fill the damn thing every 250 miles or so (sooner if city diving).

Not since the Pontiac Sunfire have I hated a car this much.

-Mak

08 CTS FE3 3.6 DI with 6 on the floor (on order)

I had this happen in a Civic I drove recently... Sure, the gas mileage was decent, but DAMN if I didn't have to stop twice to fill 'er up on a 4 hour trip.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I have heard that Mr. Lutz favors this as well. Would be another jewel in the crown. Some type of announcement'd due soon wouldn't it?

I never kiss and tell. :AH-HA_wink:

[K.C.]

For a self proclaimed peon, you certainly claim to know alot, but never really seem to say anything. Whats up with that?

[Oracle of Delphi]

For a self proclaimed peon, you certainly claim to know alot, but never really seem to say anything. Whats up with that?

That's part of my charm. I have found on these types of forums, most people can't handle the truth, even when it's Gospel, so it's better not to upset the apple cart and let people believe what they will. Remember how you acted when I told you the El Camino would not come here as a Chevrolet? You can't have it both ways, you're like one of those people that signals me to come closer with one hand and stay away with the other hand.