2 G.M. Brands, a Similar Car, but Very Different Results

[buyacargetacheck]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/23/business...amp;oref=slogin

Something feels a bit slanted about this article. NYT pronounces the Sky as a brand image success over the Solstice even though the Solstice sells better overall and the Sky is the "fresher" product. Will Sky sales hold up once the novelty has worn off a bit? I doubt it if the Solstice (and every other new "hot" car) is any indication.

The stupid thing about this is, once again, GM could have put a shot-in-the-arm for Chevrolet's brand image if Chevy had gotten this car instead of the lame-duck brands. The Solstice has done almost nothing for Pontiac's brand image overall because there's a lot of bad Pontiac history in people's minds for those who even think about Pontiac. Baby boomers may have fond memories of '66 GTOs and '70 Firebirds, but these buyers now drive Lexus or Mercedes (if they want to show off) or SUVs if they are median buyers.

Anyway, Chevy could have sold a ton of these things (PROFITS!!!) and the performance image would have been credible and enhanced thanks to 50+ years of Corvettes.

[Oracle of Delphi]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/23/business...amp;oref=slogin

Something feels a bit slanted about this article. NYT pronounces the Sky as a brand image success over the Solstice even though the Solstice sells better overall and the Sky is the "fresher" product. Will Sky sales hold up once the novelty has worn off a bit? I doubt it if the Solstice (and every other new "hot" car) is any indication.

The stupid thing about this is, once again, GM could have put a shot-in-the-arm for Chevrolet's brand image if Chevy had gotten this car instead of the lame-duck brands. The Solstice has done almost nothing for Pontiac's brand image overall because there's a lot of bad Pontiac history in people's minds for those who even think about Pontiac. Baby boomers may have fond memories of '66 GTOs and '70 Firebirds, but these buyers now drive Lexus or Mercedes (if they want to show off) or SUVs if they are median buyers.

Anyway, Chevy could have sold a ton of these things (PROFITS!!!) and the performance image would have been credible and enhanced thanks to 50+ years of Corvettes.

Normally we see eye to eye on things, but giving the Kappa to Chevrolet would not have been feasible, at least in a high volume mode as you want it to be. GM is restricting the line speed to a certain number of vehicles per hour, I'm not permitted to tell you what that number is, but it is low. GM has it's own corporate reasons for doing this. So even if Chevy got the Kappa, it would not have been able to sell it in much higher volume than what is being sold now.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Cadillacfan]

Well, that is just your opinion. Others would argue that these cars are doing the job for each brand... that is, bringing in people to Pontiac and Saturn dealerships that would've never done so in the past. The only problem for Pontiac is that they really have no other products to compare with the Solstice in the looks department.. well.. not quite yet. Saturn was lucky because the Sky was just one of many new attractive vehicle offerings from the brand.

Why would GM want to hurt sales of it's Corvette? That's exactly what would happen if Chevy received a Kappa variant. Though, it wouldn't put a huge dent in sales, it would still hurt them nonetheless.

And like Pontiac Custom said, GM wasn't expecting this to be a high-volume vehicle and considering that there are far more Chevy dealerships then there are Pontiac or Saturn, it would've been extremely hard to keep up with demand. Look at how difficult it was with the Solstice and Sky.

Pontiac and Saturn were the right brands.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Cadillacfan

[buyacargetacheck]

Whatever GM's "corporate reasons" are, they may or may not be valid. I can understand "quality" being a reason for maybe the first year of production. If the real reason is keeping demand slightly higher than supply while maximizing profit plus keeping resale values high, fine. But GM is once again cutting its nuts off by dividing image benefits amongst brands that need and will continue to need for many years help. As long as people remember the N Grand Am and GM continues to sell G6s along Solstices Pontiac's image will never match Lutz's talk. I'll believe an all rear-drive performance lineup when I see it. By the way, who's ever heard of an all performance-lineup from a mass manufacturer anyway? And don't say BMW. BMW may be the "Ultimate Driving Machine" but most folks buy the automatics with the base engines. And BMW's performance packages are mostly bought for looks (speaking as someone who should know).

Net-net, I still say 30,000-35,000 Chevrolet Kappas would have helped GM more than 18,000 Solstices and 12,000 Skys.

Normally we see eye to eye on things, but giving the Kappa to Chevrolet would not have been feasible, at least in a high volume mode as you want it to be. GM is restricting the line speed to a certain number of vehicles per hour, I'm not permitted to tell you what that number is, but it is low. GM has it's own corporate reasons for doing this. So even if Chevy got the Kappa, it would not have been able to sell it in much higher volume than what is being sold now.

[z28luvr01]

To explain why they said the Sky was the better brand image builder over the Solstice, consider the three cars that immediately followed each Kappa in their respective brands.

Sky: Aura, Vue, Astra

Solstice: Torrent, G5, G6 GXP

For the average on-looker, the Sky clearly signifies the start of something new and different at Saturn. Meanwhile, the Solstice almost looks like an anomaly in the Pontiac lineup, as it's released amid ho-hum products and thinly disguised Chevrolets. I conveniently left the G8 off the Pontiac list because that car will probably end up being the image builder for Pontiac.

As for the Kappa-to-Chevy thing, I just don't see it necessary given the low-volume nature of Kappa. The brands that needed them the most got them. Besides, Chevy has the Corvette and will have the Camaro. No need for a third roadster. I'd much rather see GM offer a barebones Corvette in the low 30s.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The stupid thing about this is, once again, GM could have put a shot-in-the-arm for Chevrolet's brand image if Chevy had gotten this car instead of the lame-duck brands. The Solstice has done almost nothing for Pontiac's brand image overall because there's a lot of bad Pontiac history in people's minds for those who even think about Pontiac. Baby boomers may have fond memories of '66 GTOs and '70 Firebirds, but these buyers now drive Lexus or Mercedes (if they want to show off) or SUVs if they are median buyers.

There's wrong an there's wrong and then there's this above statement.

The new crop of Pontiacs ARE improving brand image among people. The only catch is they are YOUNG people (My age; 25 and younger)

The G6, GTO and Solstice have ALL helped improve what Pontiac is... I see more G6's around this area (a LARGE college area) driven by young people than any other domestic. Just the other day I notcied 2 identical coupes parked together in the garage.

I recently took 2 friends (One 21 and one 23) who are not in the least car people, to a car show. A Solstice GXP sat parked next to all of the classics. Conversation ensued and both flat out told me that they really like the new Pontiacs, specifically mentioning the later 3 cars.

The image for Pontiac is changing; it's just going to take time.... A LOT of time if GM keeps the introductions both lean and low key.

whose flagship sedan had become known as the “Bland Am.”

I don't ever remember hearing this... I know the Trans Am CERTAINLY could not be referred to as bland and the Grand Am was summed up a lot of ways, but certainly not bland.

But the car, while a hit, did not generate much more interest in the Pontiac brand over all, and as a result even the Solstice itself appears to be hurting, just two years into its lifespan.

2 things wrong with that statement. 1) I see A LOT more Solsti than Sky, so I'm not sure if that statement is entirely true (Granted "sightings" aren't that reliable as predictors, but still FWIW) and 2) Pontiac ALSO didn't have the marketing injection that Saturn recieved NOR did it receive any additional introductions... Other than the Solstice, the last major Pontiac intro was the G6 which is getting pretty dated. Compare that to Saturn which, for all intents and purposes has a BRAND NEW PORTFOLIO of NEW SKOOL GM designs and the sales difference is logical and justified.

“It looks pretty cool, but ultimately it’s not able to overcome some of those barriers people have within their mind with regard to the brand image.”

I still don't understand exactly why Pontiac has such a HORRIBLE image... The recent car have been solid and the brand has HUGE historic value. But I guess since people want to kill all that is distinctly american and since Pontiac *is* GM's most vulnerable division, we get slander pieces and attacks like this.

Meanwhile, demand for the Solstice’s fraternal twin, the costlier and more angular Saturn Sky, has shown no signs of subsiding. G.M. has about one month’s worth of the Sky available, and many buyers still have to wait several weeks or months for their Sky to arrive.

1 word: MARKETING... The Sky has received MORE and BETTER marketing than the Solstice. I barely even saw any exposure on the Solstice and when I did see it, it somehow (in typical GM PR fashion) destroyed the looks of the car and botched it's virtues.)

Sky, which is produced in more limited numbers, every month.

Ummm... Yeah, maybe THAT has something to do with the difference?!?!?!

reports that Solstice buyers are getting an average discount of $475, while the Sky is selling at sticker price. (Saturn dealers have a no-haggle pricing policy.)

We're splitting hairs about $475 on a $22-25,000 transaction?!?!?! Please....

“The car is just a joy,” Mr. Waldrop said. “When the top’s down and you’re on a twisty road, I can’t imagine anything would be more fun. Even today, I cannot stop at a gas station without someone walking up and telling me how much they like it. Almost everybody guesses it would be a $40,000 car if they don’t know what it is.”

THIS is KEY! GM, if you continue to build PASSION into vehicles like this for Pontiac; the division WILL become relevant again. Any good business man will tell you that it takes money to make money... GM cannot simply expect to produce LOW BROW cars on a cut rate budget and expect it to be 'the good ole days' again. It's going to take INVESTMENT TIME and INGENUITY to bring the divisions back. Especially the divisions that seem to be really far gone.

[buyacargetacheck]

Well, the Solstice may be bringing in folks new to Pontiac, but it sure isn't helping sales is it? As far as Saturn is concerned the jury is still out. It's no great mystery why Saturn sales have gone up (LOTS OF NEW PRODUCT!!!!). But let's see what happens over the next couple of years. I predict little to no growth.

BS, Kappa would have little impact on Corvette. Corvette buyers and Kappa buyers are obviously in two different price ranges and are looking for two different things. Kappa is "cute." Corvette is "brute."

Chevy having a hard time keeping up with demand would be a new and refreshing change. Can you imagine such a situation? Sounds like a recipe for great resale values.

Pontiac and Saturn are the dead brands walking. Correction, Saturn might make more sense if they were simply renamed Opel. The logo is much better. I'd love a new Manta Rallye.

Well, that is just your opinion. Others would argue that these cars are doing the job for each brand... that is, bringing in people to Pontiac and Saturn dealerships that would've never done so in the past. The only problem for Pontiac is that they really have no other products to compare with the Solstice in the looks department.. well.. not quite yet. Saturn was lucky because the Sky was just one of many new attractive vehicle offerings from the brand.

Why would GM want to hurt sales of it's Corvette? That's exactly what would happen if Chevy received a Kappa variant. Though, it wouldn't put a huge dent in sales, it would still hurt them nonetheless.

And like Pontiac Custom said, GM wasn't expecting this to be a high-volume vehicle and considering that there are far more Chevy dealerships then there are Pontiac or Saturn, it would've been extremely hard to keep up with demand. Look at how difficult it was with the Solstice and Sky.

Pontiac and Saturn were the right brands.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

By the way, who's ever heard of an all performance-lineup from a mass manufacturer anyway? And don't say BMW. BMW may be

No one...

That's the point.

GM has the brand equity, so why not use it to INNOVATE like the company used to do?

Who ever heard of a brand of small cars that sell on personalization? No one, until Scion.

Who ever heard of a brand that sells nothing but hybrids? No one, until Toyota rolls out the varying Prius models in a few years.

Get my point? GM has assets and it needs to start using those asset (Brands, powertrains, capacity) or it will die. Sure, Chevrolet might suffer *a little* as a result of Pontiac's investment. However that is better than the alternative of SHUTTING divisions down in a hyper competitive environment and thus losing major assets as well as ground that even a juggernaut Chevrolet will NEVER regain.

For the average on-looker, the Sky clearly signifies the start of something new and different at Saturn. Meanwhile, the Solstice almost looks like an anomaly in the Pontiac lineup, as it's released amid ho-hum products and thinly disguised Chevrolets.

About 2 years ago on this very board I preached that GM's divisions needed to have co-hesiveness and theme. Look at the Nissan revival and how the consumer noticed... Look at the Mazda sales surge... Each of those divisions have a THEME and mission because all of the models convey the same message to the consumer while at the same time being outstanding products (Mazda anyway) on the side of utility.

When I look at Pontiac, I see a Solstice that says "Sex on wheels" I see a G5 that says "I've been put in the corner because GM is embarassed that I'm a cross dressing Cobalt"--- as it is at most Pontiac displays I see a G6 that says "I'm as good as Ronnie Z and the old skool GM could do" I see a Vibe that says "I'm actually an old Toyota, yet I'm as good as most of my stablemates here" and I see a Torrent that says "I'm a nice attempt, but I should've went to some other division."

That makes for a schizophrenic Pontiac that says "Hey I'm GM's excitement division!!! Or am I.... Well I was.... Umm, maybe now I'm the volume catch all... If you can't buy a Chevy, buy me."

It's the same problem Lincoln has and the same problem Kia has and the same problem (sadly) that Plymouth had for many years.

[buyacargetacheck]

1 word: MARKETING... The Sky has received MORE and BETTER marketing than the Solstice. I barely even saw any exposure on the Solstice and when I did see it, it somehow (in typical GM PR fashion) destroyed the looks of the car and botched it's virtues.)

Ummm... Yeah, maybe THAT has something to do with the difference?!?!?!

Friend, I love your enthusiasm for keeping the dead brands walking. But you have unwittingly nailed why GM will continue to lose traction in a world where the competition doesn't take a break. GM will never be able to spend enough money promoting all its brands all the time. Meanwhile, the crown jewels wait their respective turns in the soup line. Saturn's original purpose has been fulfilled and now remains just another unneeded distribution channel. Pontiac will never return to greatness if the last 30 years are any indication.

BTW, nearly all the under 25 kids I ever see driving late model performance cars are driving Subaru WRXs, Mitsu EVOs, SRT-4s or Civics. I can hardly remember the last time I saw anyone in a G6. But, then again, I only live in the world's most single important car market (even for GM!) - Los Angeles, CA.

[big blue]

Just a note here, all of my cousins wouldn't even think of buying a domestic, but one thing they do give is that if they had to, they would buy a Pontiac for its styling. They think Saturns are ugly, and Chevys look cheap and bland. Sometimes, a brand has more potential than one thinks it does...

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Just a note here, all of my cousins wouldn't even think of buying a domestic, but one thing they do give is that if they had to, they would buy a Pontiac for its styling. They think Saturns are ugly, and Chevys look cheap and bland. Sometimes, a brand has more potential than one thinks it does...

GM thinks they way you are thinking.

[buyacargetacheck]

I wouldn't use Nissan as an example since they really aren't setting the world on fire even with all their new products. Mazda has been selling the same number of cars for years. Ho-hum. I don't get why there's so much enthusiasm for the ugly and small 3??? Don't get it.

Since you're under 25 you haven't been waiting long enough to tire of GM's promises. You'll come around to the truth that what GM says and what they think they must do are two different things. Every company must do this to a degree. They've got to stir you up enough to get you to buy their overproduced, overpriced crap. It's what keeps our economy alive. But, don't make the mistake that there are Pontiac "mavericks" and "enthusiasts" who can't wait to get out of bed everyday to kick ass and run the show at GM. Most of them hate their jobs and wouldn't know the difference between a johnson rod and connecting rod.

No one...

That's the point.

GM has the brand equity, so why not use it to INNOVATE like the company used to do?

Who ever heard of a brand of small cars that sell on personalization? No one, until Scion.

Who ever heard of a brand that sells nothing but hybrids? No one, until Toyota rolls out the varying Prius models in a few years.

Get my point? GM has assets and it needs to start using those asset (Brands, powertrains, capacity) or it will die. Sure, Chevrolet might suffer *a little* as a result of Pontiac's investment. However that is better than the alternative of SHUTTING divisions down in a hyper competitive environment and thus losing major assets as well as ground that even a juggernaut Chevrolet will NEVER regain.

About 2 years ago on this very board I preached that GM's divisions needed to have co-hesiveness and theme. Look at the Nissan revival and how the consumer noticed... Look at the Mazda sales surge... Each of those divisions have a THEME and mission because all of the models convey the same message to the consumer while at the same time being outstanding products (Mazda anyway) on the side of utility.

When I look at Pontiac, I see a Solstice that says "Sex on wheels" I see a G5 that says "I've been put in the corner because GM is embarassed that I'm a cross dressing Cobalt"--- as it is at most Pontiac displays I see a G6 that says "I'm as good as Ronnie Z and the old skool GM could do" I see a Vibe that says "I'm actually an old Toyota, yet I'm as good as most of my stablemates here" and I see a Torrent that says "I'm a nice attempt, but I should've went to some other division."

That makes for a schizophrenic Pontiac that says "Hey I'm GM's excitement division!!! Or am I.... Well I was.... Umm, maybe now I'm the volume catch all... If you can't buy a Chevy, buy me."

It's the same problem Lincoln has and the same problem Kia has and the same problem (sadly) that Plymouth had for many years.

[big blue]

Too bad they aren't turning the Pontiac lineup inside out with fresh products like Saturn. That would make more people sit up and listen, but at least the G8 is coming.

[buyacargetacheck]

GM can style any of their cars anyway they want. As Pontiac Custom-S has said, it's a simple matter to change the badges. In other words, the Pontiac Solstice could become the Chevrolet Solstice almost overnight.

Just a note here, all of my cousins wouldn't even think of buying a domestic, but one thing they do give is that if they had to, they would buy a Pontiac for its styling. They think Saturns are ugly, and Chevys look cheap and bland. Sometimes, a brand has more potential than one thinks it does...

Edited August 23, 2007 by buyacargetacheck

[Intrepidation]

Chevrolet shouldn't get a Kappa for one simple reason: it has it's owns special halo car...the Corvette. It outperforms everything in GM's lineup...that's special enough for Chevrolet.

[Intrepidation]

I don't get why there's so much enthusiasm for the ugly and small 3??? Don't get it.

Class-leading driving dynamics, interior, as well as having options not available on most C-segment cars in NA, like Xenon lights and Nav system. You calling it ugly is just a matter of your opinion.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

If something were to happen... wouldn't Buick get the car from Pontiac? Remember that Bengal concept??

Edited August 23, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Flybrian]

A Buick two-seater is ridiculous, IMO. The Reatta failed and that had trunk space. Four-seater - a true four-seater, SC430 - is the only acceptable vehicle for Buick.

The 3's interior isn't anything to go nuts over and the Nav/Xenon options are meaningless since the vast, vast majority of these cars aren't built as such.

[buyacargetacheck]

I'd assume anything with "Buick" on it would have more of a boulevardier character to it. The Kappa is sportier.

I like the idea of GM making Buick and Pontiac into forces to be reckoned with. But they haven't even done that with the core brands Chevy and Cadillac yet. First things first. As long as Buick and Pontiac expend brainpower and money GM will never get ahead of the curve. Anyone who's been watching GM long enough and who can put their emotions aside for their favorite discontinued cars can see it.

Instead of business as usual, GM needs to grow some balls and get some swagger. Both Chevy and Cadillac need to be expanded and quickly. GM should restructure so that every new model year Cadillac and Chevrolet get two or more really new vehicles. Get everything on a four year lifecycle. Chevy and Cadillac come first. That's all they can handle.

If something were to happen... wouldn't Buick the car from Pontiac? Remember that Bengal concept??

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

A Buick two-seater is ridiculous, IMO. The Reatta failed and that had trunk space. Four-seater - a true four-seater, SC430 - is the only acceptable vehicle for Buick.

The 3's interior isn't anything to go nuts over and the Nav/Xenon options are meaningless since the vast, vast majority of these cars aren't built as such.

Funny.. no one felt that way when the car was a concept being considered..

[Flybrian]

The Bengal was a four-seater, hence the rear doors. They don't look comfortable, but they do look roomier than the SC430...

Also, unlike the Kappas, the Bengal had luggage space. People who buy a 'soft' roadster/convertible are more likely to want utility from their car, for golfing or whatnot.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Does not make any difference. If something should happen to Pontiac, who would they give that vehicle to in GM's line up?

One of two guesses:

SAAB or Buick. Take your pick.

[Flybrian]

Neither. If something should happen to Pontiac (which won't be instantaneous, then by the time its over, Kappa should be dead. Introduce a better, more flexible KappaII/Alpha Bengal/Velite/whatever for Buick with four seats or at least a trunk.

[hyperv6]

First lets address reality.

Pontiac has not started the rebuilding yet as the G8 and the Solstice is the only real first full Lutz efforts. Now Saturn has already added many models and has a lead on it's rebuilding because they were even worse off than Pontiac.

Second Pontiac is not going anywhere but up as it gets new models over the next few years.

Third It would be insane to sell two 2 seat sports cars in the same line up of you value leader car line. 2 Seat cars are a limited market and really only one will do the work that two would do. The many spent would be much better off in the Malibu or other high volume higher profit car.

We are going to see Pontiac turn into a more sport performance division with Euro flair. Plain as some might think it that is what is selling. If Pontiac can give quality and perfornace at a great price it will live on. The sooner the SUV crossovers and G5 or 6 are updated or eliminated with much better product we will see these changes.

GM realized that killing Olds was the wrong thing to do as they lost all equity of a once proud name. GM is in some way kind of returning to their roots where each division will only offer a couple cars. In the old days you did not have 16 Pontiacs choices, you had 2 or 3.

Most of us here see and understand what GM is doing and where they are going and a few will just never catch on.

[buyacargetacheck]

Actually Pontiac will go down in sales not up once the Grand Prix is axed and especially IF the G6 is axed and replaced by a small low-volume cramped rear-driver. A line-up of the Solstice, G8, RWD G6 and GTO would yield 100,000/yr if they're lucky.

First lets address reality.

Pontiac has not started the rebuilding yet as the G8 and the Solstice is the only real first full Lutz efforts. Now Saturn has already added many models and has a lead on it's rebuilding because they were even worse off than Pontiac.

Second Pontiac is not going anywhere but up as it gets new models over the next few years.

Toyota did it for many years successfully when it sold the Supra (essentially a 2 seater) and the MR2. Where is it written that a mass manufacturer cannot sell two 2-seaters priced $25,000 apart at very low volumes under the same roof???

Third It would be insane to sell two 2 seat sports cars in the same line up of you value leader car line. 2 Seat cars are a limited market and really only one will do the work that two would do. The many spent would be much better off in the Malibu or other high volume higher profit car.

Quality, performance and price with one car are not enough. GM would have to weed out the vehicles that don't match the desired image while adding ones that do. Further, they have to do this consistently over many years such that buyers don't have to be beaten over the head to understand what a brand means. Nobody but nobody has to explain what Jeep and Corvette and BMW are. See what I mean?

We are going to see Pontiac turn into a more sport performance division with Euro flair. Plain as some might think it that is what is selling. If Pontiac can give quality and perfornace at a great price it will live on. The sooner the SUV crossovers and G5 or 6 are updated or eliminated with much better product we will see these changes.

That's a good one. I don't think GM regrets one bit axing Oldsmobile. On what basis other than your love for Olds do you make that statement? I totally understand what GM is doing and I can read between the lines. Buick and Pontiac and Saturn have one last chance and then its ax time. It's hard to see any of them lasting 10 years.

GM realized that killing Olds was the wrong thing to do as they lost all equity of a once proud name. GM is in some way kind of returning to their roots where each division will only offer a couple cars. In the old days you did not have 16 Pontiacs choices, you had 2 or 3.

Most of us here see and understand what GM is doing and where they are going and a few will just never catch on.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I'd assume anything with "Buick" on it would have more of a boulevardier character to it. The Kappa is sportier.

I like the idea of GM making Buick and Pontiac into forces to be reckoned with. But they haven't even done that with the core brands Chevy and Cadillac yet. First things first. As long as Buick and Pontiac expend brainpower and money GM will never get ahead of the curve. Anyone who's been watching GM long enough and who can put their emotions aside for their favorite discontinued cars can see it.

Instead of business as usual, GM needs to grow some balls and get some swagger. Both Chevy and Cadillac need to be expanded and quickly. GM should restructure so that every new model year Cadillac and Chevrolet get two or more really new vehicles. Get everything on a four year lifecycle. Chevy and Cadillac come first. That's all they can handle.

The problem is not too many brands though. Yes Chevy and Cadillac need to be forces to be reckoned with. But the fact is, even without Pontiac, Saturn, and Buick around, GM would still be short on cash. Killing brands is not, and should not be an option. GM's problem has been acting as a global company. All of your posts refer to the US market alone. But the US market now makes up less than half of GM's sales. Opels make good Saturns, and Holdens make good Pontiacs. Opel and Holden are both priced above Chevy is worldwide, as they should be in the US when they are sold here as Pontiacs, Buicks, and Saturns. ex. the Saturn Astra. This can't be sold as a Chevy with a base price of $16,000, it's too expensive to be a Chevy. GM won't make money selling the Commodore as a $22,000 Impala, and GM can't take Chevy upscale because that conflicts with Chevys core value, which is to be the value, and volume leader.

As for Cadillac, when Cadillac is a force to be reckoned with, that would mean taking Cadillac upscale. That will leave a bigger gap between Chevy and Cadillac. That is the area where Pontiac, Buick and Saturn would thrive. No they won't sell millions of cars, but if done right, they would sell for a hefty premium above Chevy.

If Pontiacs and Saturns are rebadged Chevys, that doesn't work. But if Pontiacs and Saturns are rebadged Holdens and Opels, I see no reason why that would not work.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Buick and Pontiac and Saturn have one last chance and then its ax time. It's hard to see any of them lasting 10 years.

That would not make sense. Images don't get built, or rebuilt, in 10 years. Giving them new product for one generation, then killing them when they don't sell, would not make sense, is very short sighted, and would be a waste of money. GM needs to learn that once it starts something, it needs to follow through, and not give up halfway into it. If that were the case, Toyota would have given up on the Tundra a long time ago.

Edited August 23, 2007 by CaddyXLR-V

[Oracle of Delphi]

That would not make sense. Images don't get built, or rebuilt, in 10 years. Giving them new product for one generation, then killing them when they don't sell, would not make sense, is very short sighted, and would be a waste of money. GM needs to learn that once it starts something, it needs to follow through, and not give up halfway into it. If that were the case, Toyota would have given up on the Tundra a long time ago.

GM gave Oldsmobile new product in 1997 and guess what they did in December of 2000? GM announced the closing of Oldsmobile. The 2004 model year was Oldsmobile's last.

The phaseout was conducted on the following schedule:

Late 2001: The 2002 Bravada becomes the company's last new model

June 2002: Production ends for Intrigue and the Aurora V6 sedans

May 2003: Aurora V8 sedan

January 2004: Bravada SUV production ends

March 2004: Silhouette minivan production ends

April 2004: Alero compact car production ends

As far as Pontiac goes! Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock! :AH-HA_wink:

[buyacargetacheck]

There's no such thing as a "value" brand anymore. That's so 1961. There's only mainstream and luxury. Everything else is niche, lost and/or irrelevant. Toyota sells everything from the 12K Yaris all the way to the 30K+ Avalon. Chevy could and should do the same.

Holdens and Opels are the Chevys of Europe and Australia. Yes, yes I know GM is trying to move them upstream and introduce Daewoo Chevys at the bottom. Fine, but Opels and Holdens are mainstream Chevys for their respective markets. The reason the Astra will be so expensive here is because Europe's labor costs are higher than they are here AND most importantly the value of the dollar compared to the Euro has been tanking. It has nothing to do with Opel being more upscale. Spend some time in Europe and you'll quickly understand.

Cadillac should be getting Buick's new stuff and pricing it like Lexus does the RX and the ES. Leave Buick the front drive bench seated Lucerne and LaCrosse and keep selling them until demand wanes. Then leave Buick to China where there's still respect for the name.

The key to all of this isn't just about the iron. It's all about the brand image. Ask yourself - does GM have enough talent, money, manpower and guts to make Buick and Pontiac great again? The answer is a clear no.

The problem is not too many brands though. Yes Chevy and Cadillac need to be forces to be reckoned with. But the fact is, even without Pontiac, Saturn, and Buick around, GM would still be short on cash. Killing brands is not, and should not be an option. GM's problem has been acting as a global company. All of your posts refer to the US market alone. But the US market now makes up less than half of GM's sales. Opels make good Saturns, and Holdens make good Pontiacs. Opel and Holden are both priced above Chevy is worldwide, as they should be in the US when they are sold here as Pontiacs, Buicks, and Saturns. ex. the Saturn Astra. This can't be sold as a Chevy with a base price of $16,000, it's too expensive to be a Chevy. GM won't make money selling the Commodore as a $22,000 Impala, and GM can't take Chevy upscale because that conflicts with Chevys core value, which is to be the value, and volume leader.

As for Cadillac, when Cadillac is a force to be reckoned with, that would mean taking Cadillac upscale. That will leave a bigger gap between Chevy and Cadillac. That is the area where Pontiac, Buick and Saturn would thrive. No they won't sell millions of cars, but if done right, they would sell for a hefty premium above Chevy.

If Pontiacs and Saturns are rebadged Chevys, that doesn't work. But if Pontiacs and Saturns are rebadged Holdens and Opels, I see no reason why that would not work.

[CaddyXLR-V]

GM gave Oldsmobile new product in 1997 and guess what they did in December of 2000? GM announced the closing of Oldsmobile. The 2004 model year was Oldsmobile's last.

The phaseout was conducted on the following schedule:

Late 2001: The 2002 Bravada becomes the company's last new model

June 2002: Production ends for Intrigue and the Aurora V6 sedans

May 2003: Aurora V8 sedan

January 2004: Bravada SUV production ends

March 2004: Silhouette minivan production ends

April 2004: Alero compact car production ends

As far as Pontiac goes! Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock! :AH-HA_wink:

Well then lets hope GM learns from it's past mistakes. Cheering on stupidity on GM's part does not make sense to me.

[Northstar]

Anyway, Chevy could have sold a ton of these things (PROFITS!!!) and the performance image would have been credible and enhanced thanks to 50+ years of Corvettes.

Quit kidding yourself. GM has sold a ton of these "things." Don't believe me? The Miata is supposed to be "king" of the small roadsters, and outsell everything:

Miata sales YTD 2007: 10790

Solstice sales YTD 2007: 10541

Sky sales YTD: 7122

I'd say they're selling pretty damn well.

[CaddyXLR-V]

There's no such thing as a "value" brand anymore. That's so 1961. There's only mainstream and luxury. Everything else is niche, lost and/or irrelevant. Toyota sells everything from the 12K Yaris all the way to the 30K+ Avalon. Chevy could and should do the same.

Holdens and Opels are the Chevys of Europe and Australia. Yes, yes I know GM is trying to move them upstream and introduce Daewoo Chevys at the bottom. Fine, but Opels and Holdens are mainstream Chevys for their respective markets. The reason the Astra will be so expensive here is because Europe's labor costs are higher than they are here AND most importantly the value of the dollar compared to the Euro has been tanking. It has nothing to do with Opel being more upscale. Spend some time in Europe and you'll quickly understand.

Cadillac should be getting Buick's new stuff and pricing it like Lexus does the RX and the ES. Leave Buick the front drive bench seated Lucerne and LaCrosse and keep selling them until demand wanes. Then leave Buick to China where there's still respect for the name.

The key to all of this isn't just about the iron. It's all about the brand image. Ask yourself - does GM have enough talent, money, manpower and guts to make Buick and Pontiac great again? The answer is a clear no.

Funny you use the Avalon as an example, because the Lucerne outsells it. The Avalon is not setting the market on fire, everyone opts for the cheaper Camry instead.

Opel is more upscale than Chevy. In Europe, compact cars to them are our midsize cars. Cars are taxed based on engine size. That forces cars to become smaller, and more high tech, but not cheaper. Is that not the same as upscale?? Their respective markets can not be compared to the US. The US has cheaper gas, and less taxes. VW is mainstream in Europe. In the US it is not. You can't expect a Holden or Opel to be imported here as a Chevy, without increasing the price, and it is not all because of the exchange rates. Increasing the price, means less sales, which goes against your volume proposition for Chevy.

As for the talent, money and manpower to make Pontiac and Buick great again, I feel the answer is yes. The cars are already made in overseas markets, and would be fairly cheap to bring them here as Pontiacs, Buicks, and Saturns. The images will follow with time.

[hyperv6]

Actually Pontiac will go down in sales not up once the Grand Prix is axed and especially IF the G6 is axed and replaced by a small low-volume cramped rear-driver. A line-up of the Solstice, G8, RWD G6 and GTO would yield 100,000/yr if they're lucky.

Toyota did it for many years successfully when it sold the Supra (essentially a 2 seater) and the MR2. Where is it written that a mass manufacturer cannot sell two 2-seaters priced $25,000 apart at very low volumes under the same roof???

Quality, performance and price with one car are not enough. GM would have to weed out the vehicles that don't match the desired image while adding ones that do. Further, they have to do this consistently over many years such that buyers don't have to be beaten over the head to understand what a brand means. Nobody but nobody has to explain what Jeep and Corvette and BMW are. See what I mean?

That's a good one. I don't think GM regrets one bit axing Oldsmobile. On what basis other than your love for Olds do you make that statement? I totally understand what GM is doing and I can read between the lines. Buick and Pontiac and Saturn have one last chance and then its ax time. It's hard to see any of them lasting 10 years.

Where are the Supra [really a 4 seater and a MR 2 today???? Gone! Limited sales limited profits and limited life.

GM does realize today that killing Olds all together was a mistake because once the name is gone it so very hard to bring back. Ever heard of the Le salle?

First off have you not noticed most GP's have a E ont he deck lid as they are rental cars?? These fleet sales they will lose are not profitable. The G 6 may be around in some form but need to be better than it is today.

Also GM has made it clear Pontiac is no loner a high volume brand. they will only need to account for 1/2 to 1/3 of the sales in one dealership. GM has removed the pressure of high volume so that Pontiac and Buick can concentrait on doing the cars they are good at and not have to make one for everyone.

Mazda for years has limited sales of the Miata in the states and has also sold the car around the world. GM is doing the same with the Kappa. Your not going to move high volumes of 2 seater for multi years as it is a car you can only sell to a limited crowd. The Vette is about as high volume as your going to see in a 2 seater. Even the Miata sells a average of all its years 15-17K cars per year. Before the redesign it did not make 10k for the year.

Look around I dont think 98% of all the people here are wrong and your right. I respect your opinion but you better look at what your saying and how few well informed people here agree.

Is this Buick Man? If not we need to name him Pontiac Man.

[Camino LS6]

Same old brand killing song and its just as absurd as it was last week.

Can't happen

Won't happen

Shouldn't happen

That LA smog has fogged-in your brain.

[ocnblu]

Sir, you don't have to buy a car to get a check. I will send you a damned check if you go away. Your posts are seering my retinas with their candella.

[Northstar]

Actually Pontiac will go down in sales not up once the Grand Prix is axed and especially IF the G6 is axed and replaced by a small low-volume cramped rear-driver. A line-up of the Solstice, G8, RWD G6 and GTO would yield 100,000/yr if they're lucky.

What a load of bull. So you know the NG G6 will be cramped? You've sat in it? The Solstice is selling at about 20k/year. Even if it drops to 15k, that's pretty good for a roadster. The GTO did about 15k as well. G8 will do 50k easily. What says the RWD G6 is supposed to be low volume? Even if it only sells half as well as the current G6, that's going to be 70k sales. That's 150k sales with a slow-selling G6. The 3er does 100k/year and there's no reason the G6 can't do the same considering what the price difference will be. Buick should be able to do at least 300k with the Enclave, Lucerne, LaCrosse, and a TE-based crossover. Possibly 350k.

Toyota did it for many years successfully when it sold the Supra (essentially a 2 seater) and the MR2. Where is it written that a mass manufacturer cannot sell two 2-seaters priced $25,000 apart at very low volumes under the same roof???

They did? They why are both dead?

[buyacargetacheck]

You missed the point of my argument entirely. My main point was that Chevy selling 30,000 Kappas would buy GM a lot more in terms of image repair for Chevy than it has for enhancing Pontiac's image or Saturn's because the sales are divided. Plus, Chevy's image is not as good as it could be but it's rock solid compared to the other two. Meaning, it's going to take a lot more Skys and Solstices over a longer period of time to get people thinking positively (if at all) about Saturn and Pontiac.

Quit kidding yourself. GM has sold a ton of these "things." Don't believe me? The Miata is supposed to be "king" of the small roadsters, and outsell everything:

Miata sales YTD 2007: 10790

Solstice sales YTD 2007: 10541

Sky sales YTD: 7122

I'd say they're selling pretty damn well.

[balthazar]

buyacargetacheck= >>"I... live in... Los Angeles, CA."<<

Oh; this explains so much!

[Cadillacfan]

Well, the Solstice may be bringing in folks new to Pontiac, but it sure isn't helping sales is it? As far as Saturn is concerned the jury is still out. It's no great mystery why Saturn sales have gone up (LOTS OF NEW PRODUCT!!!!). But let's see what happens over the next couple of years. I predict little to no growth.

BS, Kappa would have little impact on Corvette. Corvette buyers and Kappa buyers are obviously in two different price ranges and are looking for two different things. Kappa is "cute." Corvette is "brute."

Chevy having a hard time keeping up with demand would be a new and refreshing change. Can you imagine such a situation? Sounds like a recipe for great resale values.

Pontiac and Saturn are the dead brands walking. Correction, Saturn might make more sense if they were simply renamed Opel. The logo is much better. I'd love a new Manta Rallye.

You're basing your predictions based on your own opinion and not fact. And you really didn't read what I had written because I agree that Pontiac isn't bringing in the sales because of a lackluster lineup.

Two to three years? Um.. ever heard of the Astra? Heard of the new Vue? Both are compact options in an increasingly favorable market for compact offerings. The increasingly popular Outlook will continue to bring people in who want an SUV without the low mpg. What about the potential Vectra wagon coming to our shores very soon? What about GM exploring the option of bringing diesels to the Opel designed models (the Astra and the Vue) by the end of the decade.

And the hybrids. How can you forget about the hybrids? We're not talking four years out. We're talking less then two years.

Again, you need to look at the facts before making these predictions.

On the Corvette: How could you possibly know that a potential Kappa Chevy wouldn't have an impact on Vette buyers? You don't.

You thinking one niche car raise the resale values of an entire brand simply shows that you're argument is somewhat hypocritical.

You state that the Kappa vehicles aren't doing anything for Saturn or Pontiac yet you think that one vehicle will lift Chevy out of the doldrums. There is no logic in your statements. What chevy really needs is good high-volume cars like a redesigned Cobalt, Malibu, Impala, Aveo.

It already has several niche cars either on sale or coming soon. It doesn't need anymore right now. People who buy cars like the SSR, the new Camaro or the Corvette rarely look at other Chevys. Why, you ask? Because the niche cars don't represent what Chevrolet has truely become.. a lineup of dull, poorly built, out-of-date econoboxes. Now that GM is actually putting money where it counts (a new high-volume compact platform, a new high-volume mid-sized platform, and a new high-volume full-sized RWD platform), Chevy is poised to regain what it lost years ago.

Well-built vehicles that look good and compete with the likes of Toyota, Honda, and Nissan will raise resale value. Not one Kappa convertable.

And, I don't know how many more times I can argue against this: changing the Saturn brand to Opel would be a huge mistake. GM would essentially be launching an entirely new brand in the US. Most car-buyers today sans baby-boomers remember Opel or even know if it's existence if they've never been outside the US or Canada. Saturn is a brand already on their minds. GM only needs to continue to offer new, attractive, and well-built vehicles to add on to Saturn's high-rated dealership experience and they will be able to get great results. It will take some time, but it will happen faster then having to shove new brand down the people's throats. Look how quickly Hyundai and Kia gained popularity.

Seriously dude, the Kappas under Pontiac and Saturn were the right choice.

[regfootball]

if pontiac had a new car out every 12 months or less that was equally as good as the g8, this discussion would be moot.

instead some of the pontiacs are still old or irrelevant to the new brand image.

last i heard, next g6 was to remain fwd, we'd have the g8, a new 2 dr, and the torana sized rwd car. that plus the solstice and one more car and i think they'd be ok, but seriously folks, gm needs to shut the fluck up with the rhetoric and do some work and put more new cars out more quickly and they have to meet or exceed the standard set by the g8.

seems like bob lutz hasn't been able to speed up the process any. maybe he just needs to tell the finance folks where to stick it up theirs a bit more.

GM IS JUST TOO DARN SLOW AND DOESN'T MOVE FAST ENOUGH

Edited August 24, 2007 by regfootball

[Camino LS6]

if pontiac had a new car out every 12 months or less that was equally as good as the g8, this discussion would be moot.

instead some of the pontiacs are still old or irrelevant to the new brand image.

last i heard, next g6 was to remain fwd, we'd have the g8, a new 2 dr, and the torana sized rwd car. that plus the solstice and one more car and i think they'd be ok, but seriously folks, gm needs to shut the fluck up with the rhetoric and do some work and put more new cars out more quickly and they have to meet or exceed the standard set by the g8.

seems like bob lutz hasn't been able to speed up the process any. maybe he just needs to tell the finance folks where to stick it up theirs a bit more.

GM IS JUST TOO DARN SLOW AND DOESN'T MOVE FAST ENOUGH

This, I agree with.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Toyota did it for many years successfully when it sold the Supra (essentially a 2 seater) and the MR2

While the Supra might've been a pretty decent hit; at the same time the MR2 NEVER lived up to what it was supposed to. Subsequently, they're both in the grave now. (Until the new Supra debuts)

Further, they have to do this consistently over many years such that buyers don't have to be beaten over the head to understand what a brand means. Nobody but nobody has to explain what Jeep and Corvette and BMW are. See what I mean?

With today's super saturated market for commercialized goods and consumers tuning out by the droves daily EVERY company has to beat the consumer over the head to convey mission statement and brand DNA.

Nobody has a problem identifying those particular three because 1) They're all very small and focused players. 2) The mission has been consistent (Exactly what I preached GM et al. should be) and 3) By in large, the products they sell have carried the same characteristics for YEARS...

Nobody has any trouble identifying McDonalds for what it is, nor do they Readers Digest. Because neither of those brands has deviated from it's main mission in years.

The problem is not too many brands though

EXACTLY! The problem is: GM has been marketing 6 or 7 brands to the same damn limited customer base for 15-20 years now.

Why make 6 or 7 cars for ONE type of buyer? (As GM has up until VERY recently) What they are (hopefully) trying to do now is turn their baggage into assets by FOCUSING each division onto a seperate buyer. I'm a big fan of Chevrolet, but when it comes to TOP knotch performance (The kind that costs $$$) Chevrolet should NOT build for that market. It should instead be Pontiac. Just as Buick should NOT build for america's richest 5%, as that should be Cadillac's job.

That would not make sense. Images don't get built, or rebuilt, in 10 years.

Which is exactly what happened to Oldsmobile... If GM is only willing to gives these divisions 10 years to completely heal then they might as well kill them now and save the millions wasted. It will be a LONG TERM process; GM did not get in this bad of shape in 10 years and the divisions will not fully recover in 10 years (However, I think they will make excellent progress)

[buyacargetacheck]

The arguments for keeping brands on this board mainly revolve around the emotional: "GM wishes they hadn't killed (my favorite brand)" or "the brands are an asset" (no thought as to the liability side of the ledger) or "if only GM would...then my favorite brand would shine."

You can't argue with the lack of results. GM is already behind the eight ball with its pension and union issues. And they've gradually and consistently destroyed any brand image left in several of its brands going back longer than many of the posters on this board have been alive. That's a long time.

Someone posted some Pontiac commercials from back in the 1980s. I remember those very well. What struck me about one of them is that GM was even back then giving away $1,000 on the newly designed GM-10. Any idea what that does to brand image? No wonder GM is regarded as the K-Mart of auto companies. Note: don't get me wrong, I happen to like the terrible resale values on most GM products personally because it allows me to buy some perfectly good iron at a huge used car discount (same at Chryco and Ford).

Sorry guys. The more energy GM heaps into Buick and Pontiac and Saturn, the more Cadillac and Chevy will suffer. If Chevy suffers the whole company suffers (including Opel, Holden and the other GM worldwide subsidiaries).

[sciguy_0504]

I find myself agreeing with the article. The SKY is the more successful vehicle because, in my opinion, it is the nicer vehicle, better looking vehicle, and was the first vehicle that really starting making people notice Saturn. Saturn is slowly but surely bettering itself and is definitely making desireable products.

[Z-06]

The arguments for keeping brands on this board mainly revolve around the emotional: "GM wishes they hadn't killed (my favorite brand)" or "the brands are an asset" (no thought as to the liability side of the ledger) or "if only GM would...then my favorite brand would shine."

You can't argue with the lack of results. GM is already behind the eight ball with its pension and union issues. And they've gradually and consistently destroyed any brand image left in several of its brands going back longer than many of the posters on this board have been alive. That's a long time.

Someone posted some Pontiac commercials from back in the 1980s. I remember those very well. What struck me about one of them is that GM was even back then giving away $1,000 on the newly designed GM-10. Any idea what that does to brand image? No wonder GM is regarded as the K-Mart of auto companies. Note: don't get me wrong, I happen to like the terrible resale values on most GM products personally because it allows me to buy some perfectly good iron at a huge used car discount (same at Chryco and Ford).

Sorry guys. The more energy GM heaps into Buick and Pontiac and Saturn, the more Cadillac and Chevy will suffer. If Chevy suffers the whole company suffers (including Opel, Holden and the other GM worldwide subsidiaries).

While your suggestions may be intellectual compared to the emotional opinions of other C&G members, it is not practical for GM to euthanize those brands. As I have mentioned earlier, do you want GM to burn money for closing those brands like they did with Oldsmobile? In short term those development dollars will go to Chevy and Cadillac, but in long term Caddy and Chevy cannot replace Buick and Pontiac and Saturn. If that is the argument, why not kill Opel/Vauxhall and Holden and put Chevy brand their place? Modelling your ideal on a car company similar to Toy, Lexass and Scion may not be the only way to a better vehicle manufacturing. GM needs to optimize those brands, and that is what they are trying to do. I personally do not think those brands should be killed, give them niche and reduce the volume and investment. And, I do not have emotions attached to those brands.

[Camino LS6]

You are completely out of your mind!

The arguments for keeping brands on this board mainly revolve around the emotional: "GM wishes they hadn't killed (my favorite brand)" or "the brands are an asset" (no thought as to the liability side of the ledger) or "if only GM would...then my favorite brand would shine."

Emotion has nothing to do with it -period. The steps GM has taken and continues to take are logical and preserve the brands while reducing overlap and expense. Three brands are being turned into one, eliminating the need to kill any of them while taking advantage of their established place in the market.

You can't argue with the lack of results. GM is already behind the eight ball with its pension and union issues. And they've gradually and consistently destroyed any brand image left in several of its brands going back longer than many of the posters on this board have been alive. That's a long time.

Wrong again. GM is in the best position ever regarding negotiations with the UAW and have already trimmed a huge number of workers with buyouts. This has allowed the closure of surplus plants as a bonus. The images of the brands are plainly turning around and harping on the errors from decades back is pointless.

Someone posted some Pontiac commercials from back in the 1980s. I remember those very well. What struck me about one of them is that GM was even back then giving away $1,000 on the newly designed GM-10. Any idea what that does to brand image? No wonder GM is regarded as the K-Mart of auto companies. Note: don't get me wrong, I happen to like the terrible resale values on most GM products personally because it allows me to buy some perfectly good iron at a huge used car discount (same at Chryco and Ford).

You really are stuck in the 80's, aren't you?

Sorry guys. The more energy GM heaps into Buick and Pontiac and Saturn, the more Cadillac and Chevy will suffer. If Chevy suffers the whole company suffers (including Opel, Holden and the other GM worldwide subsidiaries).

Nothing would make GM suffer like the closure of one or more brands, what you advocate would seal GM's fate within 5 years. The PR disaster would send the whole corporation into an unstoppable tailspin, the stock would plummet, and bankruptcy would quickly follow. The last time I checked, GM was turning a profit and gaining share in expanding markets around the world.

You're one-track mind is doing you a disservice here: you are beating a very dead horse. GM cannot and will not kill Saturn, Pontiac, and Buick.

[buyacargetacheck]

Finally someone understands me!!!!

You are completely out of your mind!

[Oracle of Delphi]

GM cannot and will not kill Saturn, Pontiac, and Buick.

I disagree, I think you will see Pontiac gone between 5-7 years, if the G8 bombs as I think it will, maybe sooner. If the buying public turns it's collective nose up at the Zeta Platform as a whole in North America, I think you will be looking at Toyota buying GM within 15 years and if GM is lucky, it will survive as as a division of Toyota. Let's see where we are in 15 years, shall we?

Edited August 24, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

I disagree, I think you will see Pontiac gone between 5-7 years, if the G8 bombs as I think it will, maybe sooner. If the buying public turns it's collective nose up at the Zeta Platform as a whole in North America, I think you will be looking at Toyota buying GM within 15 years and if GM is lucky, it will survive as as a division of Toyota. Let's see where we are in 15 years, shall we?

Lots of ifs and a very bleak outlook, I take a more positive view.

I believe that the US will love zeta, and alpha after it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'm not wishing GM dead, after all that will affect me in a big way. However, what is about to happen with the Zeta Platform will be critical for either GM's survival or utter destruction as a company. Once we take the leap, there is no going back. Are you ready?