Spied: Chevy Lambda

[K.C.]

GMTG, I think we'll supposed to see the production version at LA or NAIAS. I just hope that the time it took them to get this out will produce some distrinctive interior treatments and something feature wise to differentiate it from the other Lambdas.

[smk4565]

I too was hoping for a 5 seater from Chevy. Everyone doesn't need a freakin' SEVEN seater SUV, for God's sake (Edge is selling well, for example). Mr. Snider has an interesting thought, with his '59 Impala comment.

Exactly my point. 4 of the top 5 or 6 selling SUVs are the Edge, Escape, CR-V and Rav4. 5 seater SUVs sell. GM has too many big SUVs, they all compete with each other.

[smk4565]

I wanna segment busting minivan!

Let GMC/Buick and Saturn keep their own trucks, give Chevrolet an exclusive van and put Chrysler to shame. As has been said above, the minivan market is not going away and if GM is to remain #1 in the world, it needs a segment busting minivan for when gas prices continue above $4.

Badge engineering sucks, and more than anything has sunk GM to where it is today.

I agree.

The badge jobs force dealers (of which they have too many of already) to compete more on price because you can get the same vehicle in a few places. Toyota on the other hand doesn't have the badge jobs (aside from the Lexus SUVs, but those cost a lot more than the toyota version) and Toyota has half as many dealers are Ford or Chevy, so they can keep their prices a little higher. Chevy not only competes with Ford/Toyota/Honda, but they have to compete with GMC, Saturn, Pontiac, Buick, etc. GM is creating competition for themselves. This is why I'd like to see Saab and another brand go away, because GM won't quit rebadging.

[Northstar]

This vehicle is a total waste of time (and is another unknown name to most of the public). It is basically Acadia/Outlook sheet metal. They don't need 4 CUVs especially when they are all close in size to the new GMT900s. GM has no small SUV sized near the Escape, the Equinox and new Vue are a bit bigger, and once the Trailblazer goes away there will be no true midsized SUV. Plus there is no minivan. How can a major car company not have a minivan? Why do they have 4 brands of large CUVs and 4 brands with GMT900s and each brand has 2-3 versions of a GMT900.

The 4 clones of a minivan strategy failed badly 2 years ago, just like all their other rebadges from the 80s and 90s. I am so sick of rebadging. GM needs to get out of quantity mode and get into quality mode.

The other problem is GM is making competition for themself. Now a customer can shop a Saturn, GMC and Chevy, Buick too, against other dealers and drive the price down. They'll flood the market and have weaker resale values, just like they did with the GMT360s.

If it sells as well as GM is projecting, it won't be a waste of time or money at all. GM does have plans for smaller CUVs like the Edge, but they aren't ready yet.

It does seem a little silly to have 4 of the same vehicle running around, but if the Chevy comes in $5k under the Outlook I think it will be fine.

The VUE is less than 6 inches bigger than the Escape.

There are not 4 brands with T900s last I checked. GM does need a minivan, and I don't see what's so hard about putting on some sliding doors, but they think this Chevy is going to sell better than the Highlander or Pilot, which apparently they don't think is possible with a minivan.

The Trailblazer will have a replacement, though not a BOF one.

The Lambdas are very high quality products, class leading in fact. However, the ones out right now are quite expensive, and if GM can offer the Chevy Lambda at the Edge's price, I think it will be very successful.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ahhh, it's good to see brand engineering is alive and well in the 2008 model year!

[jbartley]

the enclave, acadia, outlook, and "traverse" will all be chasing very different income and customer groups.

Yes i see the acadia/enclave being cross shopped, same dealerships, but different customer bases.

traverse/outlook? no. how many saturn buyers really would want a chevy?

enclave/traverse? no. different income brackets.

acadia/traverse? maybe, due to styling/interior differences. but really GMC exists b/c it's a customer base that doesn't want everyman's chevy.

as long as it looks cool, and is priced right, there's no reason why it won't be a success. this market is huge, and there are tons of competitors. RX, Highlander, Pilot, MDX, Murano, FX, Fairlane, CX-9, etc.

[smk4565]

If it sells as well as GM is projecting, it won't be a waste of time or money at all. GM does have plans for smaller CUVs like the Edge, but they aren't ready yet.

It does seem a little silly to have 4 of the same vehicle running around, but if the Chevy comes in $5k under the Outlook I think it will be fine.

There are not 4 brands with T900s last I checked. GM does need a minivan, and I don't see what's so hard about putting on some sliding doors, but they think this Chevy is going to sell better than the Highlander or Pilot, which apparently they don't think is possible with a minivan.

The Lambdas are very high quality products, class leading in fact. However, the ones out right now are quite expensive, and if GM can offer the Chevy Lambda at the Edge's price, I think it will be very successful.

GM always does the big cars first, and neglects small, while small and/or fuel efficient dominates the sales charts. CR-V, Corolla, Camry, Civic, Rav-4, Escape come to mind.

It is for sure silly to have four 200 inch long, 7 seater SUVs when they have the Tahoe/Yukon family that are similar size, price, seating room, just wider and truckier and 3-4 mpg less.

GMT900s (9 trucks, 4 brands):

Hummer H2 and H2 SUT.

Cadillac Escalade, EXT, ESV

Chevy Tahoe, Suburban, Avalanche

GMC Yukon, Yukon XL

The Traverse may outsell the Pilot, but will it outsell the Odyssey and Chrysler minivans. I think the day the Traverse hits showrooms, Outlook and Acadia sales fall, Trailblazer sales fall (Envoy already fell). They are just eating their own sales.

Instead of making 4 of the same vehicle, then 4 or 5 Vue-equinox-BRX-Torrent-9-4x trucks and a hummer h4, they should make about 5 good SUVs rather than 10 badge jobs, and focus efforts on the Impala, Malibu and Cobalt.

After the Silverado, the Malibu should be the #1 most important vehicle at GM, Cobalt #2.

[smk4565]

the enclave, acadia, outlook, and "traverse" will all be chasing very different income and customer groups.

Yes i see the acadia/enclave being cross shopped, same dealerships, but different customer bases.

traverse/outlook? no. how many saturn buyers really would want a chevy?

enclave/traverse? no. different income brackets.

acadia/traverse? maybe, due to styling/interior differences. but really GMC exists b/c it's a customer base that doesn't want everyman's chevy.

as long as it looks cool, and is priced right, there's no reason why it won't be a success. this market is huge, and there are tons of competitors. RX, Highlander, Pilot, MDX, Murano, FX, Fairlane, CX-9, etc.

Doubtful, the will all compete with each other. Probably for every 1 commercial for the Acadia, Outlook, Traverse or Enclave, Toyota will run 4 for the Highlander. And they'll mention how the Highlander hybrid gets 28 mpg average in each one. The benefit to having 30 models and not 70 is you can advertise 2-3 times as much per model, development costs are lower, etc. GM hasn't learned yet that badge jobs don't work, it is why they are where they are, they did it all through the 80s and 90s and went from over 40% market share to 23%.

[Northstar]

GM always does the big cars first, and neglects small, while small and/or fuel efficient dominates the sales charts. CR-V, Corolla, Camry, Civic, Rav-4, Escape come to mind.

It is for sure silly to have four 200 inch long, 7 seater SUVs when they have the Tahoe/Yukon family that are similar size, price, seating room, just wider and truckier and 3-4 mpg less.

GMT900s (9 trucks, 4 brands):

Hummer H2 and H2 SUT.

Cadillac Escalade, EXT, ESV

Chevy Tahoe, Suburban, Avalanche

GMC Yukon, Yukon XL

The Traverse may outsell the Pilot, but will it outsell the Odyssey and Chrysler minivans. I think the day the Traverse hits showrooms, Outlook and Acadia sales fall, Trailblazer sales fall (Envoy already fell). They are just eating their own sales.

Instead of making 4 of the same vehicle, then 4 or 5 Vue-equinox-BRX-Torrent-9-4x trucks and a hummer h4, they should make about 5 good SUVs rather than 10 badge jobs, and focus efforts on the Impala, Malibu and Cobalt.

After the Silverado, the Malibu should be the #1 most important vehicle at GM, Cobalt #2.

H2 is not GMT900, and even if it was it is not cross-shopped with most of the others.

Outselling the Odyssey and Chrysler vans is quite a task, seeing as how they have sold so well for years, though GM's target is pretty much the same as what the Odyssey is on pace for this year.

As someone else said, the Chevy really doesn't compete with the others too much, except perhaps the Acadia. The Outlook is for import buyers who won't consider a Chevy, the Acadia may compete with it on the bottom end, and the Enclave is obviously much more upscale.

[Drew Dowdell]

GM always does the big cars first, and neglects small, while small and/or fuel efficient dominates the sales charts. CR-V, Corolla, Camry, Civic, Rav-4, Escape come to mind.

It is for sure silly to have four 200 inch long, 7 seater SUVs when they have the Tahoe/Yukon family that are similar size, price, seating room, just wider and truckier and 3-4 mpg less.

GMT900s (9 trucks, 4 brands):

Hummer H2 and H2 SUT.

Cadillac Escalade, EXT, ESV

Chevy Tahoe, Suburban, Avalanche

GMC Yukon, Yukon XL

The Traverse may outsell the Pilot, but will it outsell the Odyssey and Chrysler minivans. I think the day the Traverse hits showrooms, Outlook and Acadia sales fall, Trailblazer sales fall (Envoy already fell). They are just eating their own sales.

Instead of making 4 of the same vehicle, then 4 or 5 Vue-equinox-BRX-Torrent-9-4x trucks and a hummer h4, they should make about 5 good SUVs rather than 10 badge jobs, and focus efforts on the Impala, Malibu and Cobalt.

After the Silverado, the Malibu should be the #1 most important vehicle at GM, Cobalt #2.

I'm betting that the Envoy sales have fallen not just because of the Acadia, but because it's a nearly 8 year old truck based SUV in a crossover market. The rest of your points have merit. The CR-V and RAV4 are neither small nor especially fuel efficient anymore though. When I think small SUV I think original Rav4, Tracker, Sportage, original CR-V. RAV-4 is approaching last generation Blazer size.

[Z-06]

I think GM lost to the dealers here (again). I do believe Chevy does not need another seven seater. If the 5 seaters were coming now was the time to push into the Chevy dealers first and then give it to other dealers. Moreover, a Chevy minivan on Lambda would have made sense. People from minivan market are not going to move those 1 million annual sales to crossovers overnight. With the Lambda minivan, Chevy would have made inroads to the import and of course Chry dominated market. Given the dynamics and spaciousness of the Lambdas, it would have been a good minivan.

These dealers need to be kept in check. I cannot understand why the middle man gets so much importance in the say for GM. I mean it is the customer who wants it and manufacturer who should be building it. Those mid men bitches should listen to both or either and not rip one of their own.

[deftonesfan867]

GM always does the big cars first, and neglects small, while small and/or fuel efficient dominates the sales charts. CR-V, Corolla, Camry, Civic, Rav-4, Escape come to mind.

It is for sure silly to have four 200 inch long, 7 seater SUVs when they have the Tahoe/Yukon family that are similar size, price, seating room, just wider and truckier and 3-4 mpg less.

GMT900s (9 trucks, 4 brands):

Hummer H2 and H2 SUT.

Cadillac Escalade, EXT, ESV

Chevy Tahoe, Suburban, Avalanche

GMC Yukon, Yukon XL

The Traverse may outsell the Pilot, but will it outsell the Odyssey and Chrysler minivans. I think the day the Traverse hits showrooms, Outlook and Acadia sales fall, Trailblazer sales fall (Envoy already fell). They are just eating their own sales.

Instead of making 4 of the same vehicle, then 4 or 5 Vue-equinox-BRX-Torrent-9-4x trucks and a hummer h4, they should make about 5 good SUVs rather than 10 badge jobs, and focus efforts on the Impala, Malibu and Cobalt.

After the Silverado, the Malibu should be the #1 most important vehicle at GM, Cobalt #2.

The Hummers sit on the GMT800 platform still.

[91z4me]

Ah... good points. Let me attempt to disspell them. I don't think this is just a mule. This looks near pre-production. The Buick hips with the GMC/Saturn doors (look at the sculpting, it gives itself away) tell me that GM took time to blend them, which means they were thinking cosmetics over structure here.

And if you CAN'T see what that car looks like under there, you need a better monitior. On Jalopnik, just make the pic 1280, and those lights are clear as day to make out.

I am using a brand new Toshiba laptop w/ a 15.4 inch widescreen and I feel like Ray Charles "I can't see SH*T!"

[ocnblu]

Um, raise the toilet seat?

[CARBIZ]

I think GM lost to the dealers here (again). I do believe Chevy does not need another seven seater. If the 5 seaters were coming now was the time to push into the Chevy dealers first and then give it to other dealers. Moreover, a Chevy minivan on Lambda would have made sense. People from minivan market are not going to move those 1 million annual sales to crossovers overnight. With the Lambda minivan, Chevy would have made inroads to the import and of course Chry dominated market. Given the dynamics and spaciousness of the Lambdas, it would have been a good minivan.

These dealers need to be kept in check. I cannot understand why the middle man gets so much importance in the say for GM. I mean it is the customer who wants it and manufacturer who should be building it. Those mid men bitches should listen to both or either and not rip one of their own.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but in the land of $4 a gallon gas, the Trailblazer and Tahoe DON'T sell. The Uplander is great when based on price, but not exactly a class leading van. Frankly, I am getting sick of playing traffic cop in directing customers to the nearest P-B-GMC store where they can find TWO (not one) lambdas. Even the customers wonder why there are TWO over there and we at Chevrolet have nothing.

The Equinox is getting long in the tooth, has a tiny cargo area and only seats 5. GM screwed up in not giving either a Uplander replacement to the Chevrolet dealers at the same time as the lambdas, or giving the Acadia to Chevrolet and the Enclave to GMC.

You do understand that P-B-GMC are being merged under one roof, don't you? Well, look to the north, my friend: we've always had P-B-GMC dealers under one roof and Chevrolet LOST Oldsmobile - so far as dealers whining goes, we got f$%ked up here. The GM-DAT product was supposed to replace our Olds volume, but then Pontiac got the Wave, too and we had to share the Epica with Suzuki and the Aveo with Suzuki as well. We got the Optra 5, AFTER Pontiac sold a $h!load of Vibes.

Don't talk to me about dealer whining. I've watched my Oldsmobile portfolio evaporate and I am growing weary of justifying the Uplander's existence.

[Z-06]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but in the land of $4 a gallon gas, the Trailblazer and Tahoe DON'T sell. The Uplander is great when based on price, but not exactly a class leading van. Frankly, I am getting sick of playing traffic cop in directing customers to the nearest P-B-GMC store where they can find TWO (not one) lambdas. Even the customers wonder why there are TWO over there and we at Chevrolet have nothing.

The Equinox is getting long in the tooth, has a tiny cargo area and only seats 5. GM screwed up in not giving either a Uplander replacement to the Chevrolet dealers at the same time as the lambdas, or giving the Acadia to Chevrolet and the Enclave to GMC.

You do understand that P-B-GMC are being merged under one roof, don't you? Well, look to the north, my friend: we've always had P-B-GMC dealers under one roof and Chevrolet LOST Oldsmobile - so far as dealers whining goes, we got f$%ked up here. The GM-DAT product was supposed to replace our Olds volume, but then Pontiac got the Wave, too and we had to share the Epica with Suzuki and the Aveo with Suzuki as well. We got the Optra 5, AFTER Pontiac sold a $h!load of Vibes.

Don't talk to me about dealer whining. I've watched my Oldsmobile portfolio evaporate and I am growing weary of justifying the Uplander's existence.

Carbiz.

I understand your point of view. But didn't the Buick Dealers deny Buick a chance of having a RWD like last year? It is like Bestbuy telling Sony, not to bring its flat screen TV in the market. It was the middlemen (Beancounter Gurus, Accounting Idiots, Lawyers and Dealers who got GM into mess over the past 20 years.) If the customer wants something and if the company cannot build it because its distributors do not think it is right, of course people will go to other brands.

Frankly GM blundered with the Lambdas by giving it to Saturn. I honestly think that big SUV does not exist in that brand no matter how upscale you want to make the brand to go, it is already crushed between, the Acadia and the Enclave. And like I said, I am fine with the idea of having a Lambda in Chevy, but it should have been packaged differently in the tone of a minivan not a fourth crossover. People are already saying a badge job, even before seeing it completely.

Frankly Equinox is only in its fourth model year in 2008, and the refresher is coming on. But I doubt GM has any new bigger five seater ala Edge competitor on the horizon for Chevy. Furthermore as Oldsmoboi said, GM needs a Tracker, before the Quashcow from $h!san and Biblebanger SUV of Kua take the market share.

As a matter of fact the small trucks and Tblazer should be modified as soon as possible, before GM loses its existence in that market. Toy and $h!san have literally taken the small truck market.

[regfootball]

chevy does need a crossover 3 row, especially since its one of the hottest segments for the next few years.

i was rethinking this and could it simply be possible this is a test mule but not neccessarily the exact same body panels it will have?

[smk4565]

H2 is not GMT900, and even if it was it is not cross-shopped with most of the others.

Outselling the Odyssey and Chrysler vans is quite a task, seeing as how they have sold so well for years, though GM's target is pretty much the same as what the Odyssey is on pace for this year.

As someone else said, the Chevy really doesn't compete with the others too much, except perhaps the Acadia. The Outlook is for import buyers who won't consider a Chevy, the Acadia may compete with it on the bottom end, and the Enclave is obviously much more upscale.

You're right about the H2, that is a GMT800, I forgot about that, but it is still a full size SUV. The Outlook is basically the same as the Acadia or Chevy will be. If every Chevy were great, they wouldn't need 4 niche brands to target former import buyers. I doubt people think, I don't like Chevy it is American, but I'll buy a Staurn because it is American but looks different than a Chevy. If they made the Chevys good to begin with, they wouldn't need all these rebadged cars. I am fine with having more brands if they are used right. That means Pontiac and Buick should be limited to 3 models each, and they seriously cut down the rebadges.

And who cares about the dealers complaining. There are too many of them anyway, they have a dealer network to support 40% market share, but they have 24% market share. I think there are 5 Cadillac dealers for every 1 Lexus dealership, and Lexus sells more cars, so they are vastly more profitable.

GM needs to realize that consumer is by far and away #1. Union, dealer network etc are far behind. GM can survive if 50% of the dealers go out of business, they can survive (and would do better) if the union went away. But they can't survive without people buying their product.

[smk4565]

The Equinox was dated the first year it was out because of the 90s engine and tranny. Now it really shows, and the vehicle doesn't match the rest of the class. The Equinox is also larger than the Edge. I know the CRV and Rav4 have grown but the 4 cylinder versions still average in the low to mid 20 mpg range.

The Lambdas are 16/22 under the new EPA ratings, that isn't very good. Most any minivan beats them, the smaller SUVs beat them. 4 huge crossovers is a horrible idea, too much overlap, and Saturn isn't really a big vehicle kind of company.

If anyone looks at an SUV sales chart, the 5 seaters have way more spots in the top 15 than the 7 seaters do.

It will be nice when the 2008 Malibu comes out, that car looks like a winner and GM is in dire need of a hit that doesn't have 7 seats or says "silverado" on the back.

Edited August 16, 2007 by smk4565

[Z-06]

GM needs to realize that consumer is by far and away #1. Union, dealer network etc are far behind. GM can survive if 50% of the dealers go out of business, they can survive (and would do better) if the union went away. But they can't survive without people buying their product.

If replacing the UAW and Dealer network was that easy, there would not have been negotiations going on now with the UAW. Although you have some valid points, GM cannot just dump the dealer network and UAW, because of the protection those entities had in the times the contracts were mooted. You may have to change the entire law to make that a reality.

The Lambdas are 16/22 under the new EPA ratings, that isn't very good. Most any minivan beats them, the smaller SUVs beat them. 4 huge crossovers is a horrible idea, too much overlap, and Saturn isn't really a big vehicle kind of company.

Here is the one directly from fueleconomy.gov

Buick Enclave

2WD: 16/24

AWD: 16/22

Toy Siena

2WD: 17/24

AWD: 16/21

I do not see any difference to justify that Siena beats the Enclave in the fuel economy.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

now THAT would sell, but yet they won't build anything like that?!

As far as the Lambda, 2 rebadges is ok, a 3rd is pushing it, but since one is so difference than the other 2 (Enclave) we can let that one slide. But to put a 4th that resembles the other 2 is not the way to go. Yeah I know, this was pushed out due to the Chevy dealers bit**ing about not having anything to sell. First off I do agree that they need something in that range to sell, but it should've been a SWB version (5 seater) to compete with the Ford Edge and keep it's "value" in play.

However I do believe the front end will be pretty cool looking though.

Agreed, but Chevy already has a Ford Edge rival-its the Equinox. There is no need for a SWB Lambda of any kind, when Theta offers compact (106") and 112" mid-size wheelbases. This plugs one more hole in the lineup, as a mainstream large crossover SUV to rival the Ford Flex. Now Dodge needs a rival, and that's a make that has many, many gaping holes in its line. But I see the Sequel concept car-Traverse design similarities now-check the rear quarter window shapes. I love the similar GMC Acadia and is a justifiably hot seller, but I feel GMC should stay truck-only (Lambdas, Thetas, etc. are all cars to me), and they are competing almost directly with Outlook, Enclave, and eventually, Traverse.

[regfootball]

Agreed, but Chevy already has a Ford Edge rival-its the Equinox. There is no need for a SWB Lambda of any kind, when Theta offers compact (106") and 112" mid-size wheelbases. This plugs one more hole in the lineup, as a mainstream large crossover SUV to rival the Ford Flex. Now Dodge needs a rival, and that's a make that has many, many gaping holes in its line. But I see the Sequel concept car-Traverse design similarities now-check the rear quarter window shapes. I love the similar GMC Acadia and is a justifiably hot seller, but I feel GMC should stay truck-only (Lambdas, Thetas, etc. are all cars to me), and they are competing almost directly with Outlook, Enclave, and eventually, Traverse.

edge is wider and a far more refined machine mechanically. length might be similar but we all know that width matters. no way the eq is as solid as the edge. chevy's extra length is all front end overhang which is useless in terms of packaging.

Edited August 16, 2007 by regfootball

[CARBIZ]

We can play this 'should have' game all day. The Equinox was a decent vehicle - as a stop-gap 4 years ago, as was the Uplander. GM spent all of its money (and time) on the full size SUVs and the pickups. Okay, I understand that they are important to the American market. But in Canada, the minivans and CUVs are a more important market, particularly in the 3 largest markets: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver.

I would liked (past tense) to have seen the GMC Enclave, Chevrolet Acadia (who cares about Saturn) and a kick-ass minivan exclusively to Chevrolet (no Pontiac version), maybe an upscale minivan for GMC and a small 4 cylinder CUV for Chevrolet. Ditch the Trailblazer. Let GMC keep the Envoy, if they want.

I am not sure how far along the P-B-GMC amalgamation is going south of the border, but I am hoping that once its complete we can see a lot less of this re-badging going on.