Toyota

[carman21]

AS a GM fan, I wonder what is the best worst line-up the Toyota can do right now. I was thinking that we gotta guess what the worst they can do. Here's what I think. Toyota Echo? 1.4L 104hp I-4 1.8L 134hp I-4 Corolla 1.8L 134hp I-4 2.4L 179hp I-4 Camry 2.4L 179hp I-4 3.5L 268hp V-6 Avalon 3.5L 268hp V-6 4.6L 357hp V-8? Well, thats it,whatcha think?

[Polish_Kris]

AS a GM fan, I wonder what is the best worst line-up the Toyota can do right now.
I was thinking that we gotta guess what the worst they can do.
Here's what I think.
Toyota
Echo?
1.4L 104hp I-4
1.8L 134hp I-4
Corolla
1.8L 134hp I-4
2.4L 179hp I-4
Camry
2.4L 179hp I-4
3.5L 268hp V-6
Avalon
3.5L 268hp V-6
4.6L 357hp V-8?
Well, thats it,whatcha think?

[post="25488"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

People never bought Hondas or Toyota based on engine size and horsepower figures

[PontiacTechNJ]

or the fact they are a Class leader , which they never are , or innovative for that matter .

[frogger]

or the fact they are a Class leader , which they never are , or innovative for that matter .

[post="25579"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Umm.. yeah oh Honda and Toyota have never built class leading vehicles. The Camry, Corolla, Sienna, Accord, Civic and Oddessey are always a step behind.

[Cory Wolfe]

If you can honestly say the Corolla and Camry are class leading... you need help. :blink:

[Satty]

I honestly cannot say that any recent Corolla has been better than any comparable Civic, but the Corolla has always been better than the Cavvy and is only marginally worse than the Cobalt. The Camry is class leading, sales-wise, that has to count for something.

[Croc]

Sometimes Honda and Toyota are the class leaders. They are "follow the leader" companies who wait for someone to try something before assuming the risk of doing it themselves. That said, when they do it themselves (usually only a year or two behind) they improve it in some way because they know what consumers want from the original company's request lists. That's why they are usually considered class-leading.

[Variance]

Sometimes Honda and Toyota are the class leaders.

They are "follow the leader" companies who wait for someone to try something before assuming the risk of doing it themselves.  That said, when they do it themselves (usually only a year or two behind) they improve it in some way because they know what consumers want from the original company's request lists.  That's why they are usually considered class-leading.

[post="25614"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Um, were not Toyota and Honda the first ones to offer mainstream hybrids by a considerable length of time? :huh:

[frogger]

If you can honestly say the Corolla and Camry are class leading... you need help. :blink:

[post="25607"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The Camry? Sure when it came out in 2001 in was.. best overall boring and safe 4 cylinder family sedan out there, which is all a tonne of families need/care to spend on a car.

[Cory Wolfe]

The current Accord of the time was still better than it...

That and when the new Malibu came out, I remember some magazine placing it higher than the Camry in a comparison... And its biased. That has to say something about the Camry...

[frogger]

The current Accord of the time was still better than it...

That and when the new Malibu came out, I remember some magazine placing it higher than the Camry in a comparison... And its biased. That has to say something about the Camry...

[post="25622"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The old Accord was pretty small in comparison... and its 4 cylinder engine didn't compare. Kind of like the 2.2L ecotec.

[Sixty8panther]

Record Sales =/= Class Leader Jus6t cause they sell a half a billion Camrys to clueless sheeple every year does NOT make the Camry better than an Impala or Regal.

[Satty]

No, it means they sell more, which brings in more money which makes it possible for Toyota to think about buying GM. Like I said, it counts for something. Just because no thread is complete without a Camaro, I'll just add to this that the Mustang not only outsold the 4th gen, it was the better car for the 95% of society that doesn't go to the dragstrip every weekend.

[Croc]

Um, were not Toyota and Honda the first ones to offer mainstream hybrids by a considerable length of time? :huh:

[post="25617"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, which is why they are SOMETIMES class leaders, but generally they are "Follow the Leader" companies. I am NOT implying GM is always the leader here...but sometimes they are. GM does have a knack for innovation though.

[frogger]

Record Sales  =/=  Class Leader

Jus6t cause they sell a half a billion Camrys to clueless sheeple every year does NOT make the Camry better than an Impala or Regal.

[post="25658"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Insulting Camry owner intelligence over marginal cars W-body cars like the old Impala and especially the Regal is pretty funny. What was better about them? Safety? No. Fuel Economy? No. Resale Value? No. Interiors? No. Chirping tires at stoplights? Sure .

[Flybrian]

Camry hasn't been class-leading since the mid-90s and Avalon has been a lame-duck for two generations. Everything else is up for debate to an extent.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Avalon
3.5L 268hp V-6
4.6L 357hp V-8?

[post="25488"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

LOL a 360hp V8 in an Avalon... Toyota would never do that........ toyota doesnt have a single FWD V8 engine anyways.

[razoredge]

Sometimes Honda and Toyota are the class leaders.

They are "follow the leader" companies who wait for someone to try something before assuming the risk of doing it themselves.  That said, when they do it themselves (usually only a year or two behind) they improve it in some way because they know what consumers want from the original company's request lists.  That's why they are usually considered class-leading.

[post="25614"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So does this mean the japanese builders have better analysts, marketing and engineering or cheaper work force ?
<_<

[Croc]

So does this mean the japanese builders have better analysts, marketing and engineering or cheaper work force ? 
<_<

[post="25700"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, that's not what it means at all. It means that instead of innovating, they closely follow so they come to market with a product that improves upon the leading one. Nothing to do with analysts, because they wait for someone else to assume the risk before they attempt.

[Petra]

The biggest threat Toyota poses to GM is not their model lineup. It's the sheer amount of cash Toyota sits upon.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Insulting Camry owner intelligence over marginal cars W-body cars like the old Impala and especially the Regal is pretty funny.  What was better about them?  Safety?  No.  Fuel Economy? No.  Resale Value?  No.  Interiors?  No.  Chirping tires at stoplights? Sure .

[post="25683"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually the the W-body cars do get better fuel economy. Are you comparing the V6s to I4s? Because no W-bodies come with 4 cyl engines. The 303hp Impala gets 19/28. What does the 225hp Camry get?

[andy82471]

Actually the the W-body cars do get better fuel economy. Are you comparing the V6s to I4s? Because no W-bodies come with 4 cyl engines. The 303hp Impala gets 19/28. What does the 225hp Camry get?

[post="25759"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

20/29 I think. Btw, thanks to SAE's new rating system the Camry SE V6 Hp is down to 210.

[razoredge]

No, that's not what it means at all.  It means that instead of innovating, they closely follow [analyze] so they come to market [marketing] with a product that improves upon the leading one [engineering].  Nothing to do with analysts, because they wait for someone else to assume the risk before they attempt.

[post="25717"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:unsure:

[Sixty8panther]

Wow another thread gone bad. Chirping tires in FWD is just lame and was obviously not waht I was talking about. Lbs. per Lbs. the Camry versus Impala decision is a no brainer unless you eat that crap CR keeps shoveling down subscriber's throats.

[pow]

20/29 I think. Btw, thanks to SAE's new rating system the Camry SE V6 Hp is down to 210.

[post="25762"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually, it's 18/28.

[andy82471]

Actually, it's 18/28.

[post="25978"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Found it. 21/29 for SE V6 20/28 for LE and XLE V6

http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs_v6.html

[Dsuupr]

The biggest threat Toyota poses to GM is not their model lineup. It's the sheer amount of cash Toyota sits upon.

[post="25743"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well put.

[Dsuupr]

Well I for one would like to bring up the quality factor here. Malibu and Impala both slam the camry & accord in JD Powers initial and long term report. HMMMM.

[toyoguy]

you guys realize the camry is to be replaced in 6months

[Snate]

you guys realize the camry is to be replaced in 6months

[post="26011"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The problem is that the Camry hasn't been even close to class leading since 2002....and the upcoming "redesigned" camry will only have new sheet metal and a few minor changes....the biggest being a new engine most likely if that.

[Polish_Kris]

What was better about them?  Safety?  No.  Fuel Economy? No.  Resale Value?  No.  Interiors?  No.  Chirping tires at stoplights? Sure .

[post="25683"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Um? fuel economy, then why does my 2.2 Camry get close to 800 km per tank on the highway? ummmm, resale value, if you say that a GM has a bigger resale value than a Honda or Toyota, then you're just stupid, go check trader.ca and tell me if a 02 accord or camry are selling for less then an 02 malibuck or grand pricks, and then compare their new MSRP, and um interiors, I dunno man, my dad has a 2000 Sienna, my mom has a 94 Accord, and I have a 97 Camry, and non of them have even one creak or rattle, and the materials still look and feel good, and as for chirping tires, um....? no comment, maybe because they are front wheel drive!

:lol:

[toyoguy]

minor changes? new 6spd auto new v6 engine probably a new 4banger hybrid powertrain completely redone cabin and exterior heavily reworked chassis additional features, safety equipment. I'm confident the redisign will increase sales and market share for art least 2.5yrs

[frogger]

Um? fuel economy, then why does my 2.2 Camry get close to 800 km per tank on the highway? ummmm, resale value, if you say that a GM has a bigger resale value than a Honda or Toyota, then you're just stupid, go check trader.ca and tell me if a 02 accord or camry are selling for less then an 02 malibuck or grand pricks, and then compare their new MSRP, and um interiors, I dunno man, my dad has a 2000 Sienna, my mom has a 94 Accord, and I have a 97 Camry, and non of them have even one creak or rattle, and the materials still look and feel good, and as for chirping tires, um....? no comment, maybe because they are front wheel drive!

:lol:

[post="26023"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

WTF am I getting it from both sides here? I was saying the 2002+ camry was better than the 2000+ Impala in those regards. Jeez.
I'm not going to compare the 2002 to the new Impala, whats the point with the new Camry due within a year.

[CaddyXLR-V]

WTF am I getting it from both sides here?  I was saying the 2002+ camry was better than the 2000+ Impala in those regards.  Jeez.
I'm not going to compare the 2002 to the new Impala, whats the point with the new Camry due within a year.

[post="26038"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The 2000+ Impala still got better fuel economy than the 2002+ Camry, if you compare V6 to V6.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Um? fuel economy, then why does my 2.2 Camry get close to 800 km per tank on the highway? ummmm, resale value, if you say that a GM has a bigger resale value than a Honda or Toyota, then you're just stupid, go check trader.ca and tell me if a 02 accord or camry are selling for less then an 02 malibuck or grand pricks, and then compare their new MSRP, and um interiors, I dunno man, my dad has a 2000 Sienna, my mom has a 94 Accord, and I have a 97 Camry, and non of them have even one creak or rattle, and the materials still look and feel good, and as for chirping tires, um....? no comment, maybe because they are front wheel drive!

:lol:

[post="26023"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Read his post again, he was arguing your point, not against it. And try comparing V6 to V6, as I said, the W-body cars dont come with 4cyls. If you want to compare the 4cyl Camry to a GM car, compare it to the Malibu 4cyl.

[milleramerican]

No, it means they sell more, which brings in more money which makes it possible for Toyota to think about buying GM.  Like I said, it counts for something. 
Just because no thread is complete without a Camaro, I'll just add to this that the Mustang not only outsold the 4th gen, it was the better car for the 95% of society that doesn't go to the dragstrip every weekend.

[post="25661"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Hey do you just go around looking to bash camaros? Its really fucking annoying, so stop it.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Well I for one would like to bring up the quality factor here.

Malibu and Impala both slam the camry & accord in JD Powers initial and long term report.  HMMMM.

[post="26008"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Considering that JD Power's 3 year VDS is not exactly "long term" really says a lot. 3 years is how long a lot of leases run for. Do you honestly think that major problems would appear in *any* vehicle after 3 years? Unless the vehicle is a complete POS, the most likely it won't experience too many problems in the first 3 years.

A real "long term" survey would be at least 5 or 6 years, but the problem with that is the logistics of such a long survey, the cost of it, and the potentially suicidal PR that may come to certain manufacturers if their cars end up with major problems after 5 or 6 years.

Right now, the best way to judge quality is still word of mouth and experience. If the Impala and Malibu really do "Spank Accords and Camries" in reliability and durability than this will eventually be seen in word of mouth of the general public, as well as more specialized people like car salesman and mechanics. As of now, word of mouth has not really changed.

[Satty]

Hey do you just go around looking to bash camaros? Its really fucking annoying, so stop it.

[post="26108"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

68 brings Camaros up in every thread, I just beat him to it. The 4th gen didn't sell because it wasn't as good of a car (for the average buyer) as the Mustang was. Dont believe me, go look up some sales figures. Better yet, go down to a Ford dealership and get me the sticker price on a 2006 Mustang, then head over to a Chevy dealer and get me the sticker price on a 2006 Camaro. Oops.

[Polish_Kris]

Considering that JD Power's 3 year VDS is not exactly "long term" really says a lot. 3 years is how long a lot of leases run for. Do you honestly think that major problems would appear in *any* vehicle after 3 years? Unless the vehicle is a complete POS, the most likely it won't experience too many problems in the first 3 years.

A real "long term" survey would be at least 5 or 6 years, but the problem with that is the logistics of such a long survey, the cost of it, and the potentially suicidal PR that may come to certain manufacturers if their cars end up with major problems after 5 or 6 years.

Right now, the best way to judge quality is still word of mouth and experience. If the Impala and Malibu really do "Spank Accords and Camries" in reliability and durability than this will eventually be seen in word of mouth of the general public, as well as more specialized people like car salesman and mechanics. As of now, word of mouth has not really changed.

[post="26361"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Very ture!

[milleramerican]

68 brings Camaros up in every thread, I just beat him to it.  The 4th gen didn't sell because it wasn't as good of a car (for the average buyer) as the Mustang was.  Dont believe me, go look up some sales figures.  Better yet, go down to a Ford dealership and get me the sticker price on a 2006 Mustang, then head over to a Chevy dealer and get me the sticker price on a 2006 Camaro.  Oops.

[post="26441"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That because he likes Camaros? Who the hell cares. You are just being an asshole to him, and making yourself look like a fool for parading around here like you know everything. I suspect you are looking forward to the 06 Detroit Auto Show so you can make fun of the Camaro concept. I can see it now, Satty on the Camaro concept:

Wow, what a piece of crap. Ford will have nothing to worry about if GM builds it.

Hey 68, now you have more stuff to talk about Camaro wise. Are you happy? Are you going to post this car in every thread?

Wow this car is actually pretty nice, but I am still going to make fun of it because I have made fun of Camaros so much in the past. What will everyone think if I actually admit it looks good?



What else man? What other crap can you say?

[Satty]

I can say that there most likely wont be a Camaro concept at NAIAS '06 and that there is no reason for the freaking Camaro to be brought up in every thread. Its just a car, jesus people, get over it.

[cmattson]

Toyota is a brand built around perception. The Camry doesn't have to have the best horsepower, handling, safety, price, feature-set, or economy. It has to have the perception that it does. The Camry hasn't been a leader in any of these categories in it's current form -- yet it's still the sales leader. Next year will mark a full decade when the Camry was last mentioned in jdpa for either initial quality or long-term durability. That's a hell of a reputation they've milked.

All this being said, the Camry isn't exactly a laggard in any of these categories either. I do expect the next-generation Camry to be remakably better than the current generation -- which is getting long-in-the-tooth rather fast. Frankly, when you look at benchmarks, the current Camry is quite uncompetitive. The Malibu flat-out spanks in for gas mileage. Heck, even the Malibu's 3.5l produced more hp than the 190hp Camry V6. Yes, I know that the Camry get's a larger, 210hp V6 -> and I'll then refer you to the Malibu SS's 3.9l. As for interior appointments, check out the interior photos of the current Camry in all it's rental-car-like brilliance. Stunningly ordinary/unspectacular, huh?



Perception is king! It's what Toyota has in spades and what GM desperately is trying to reclaim!

[Snate]

whew...I forgot how nasty the current Camry interior is. I can't believe auto journalists love it so much.

[pow]

whew...I forgot how nasty the current Camry interior is.  I can't believe auto journalists love it so much.

[post="27596"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It hasn't won anything for the longest of times... in fact, the last time it won a comparo was back in 2002 (Motor Trend), when it was just redesigned.

[bowtie_dude]

Record Sales  =/=  Class Leader

Jus6t cause they sell a half a billion Camrys to clueless sheeple every year does NOT make the Camry better than an Impala or Regal.

[post="25658"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But the thing is, the Camry IS better than the Regal and previous Impala, thats a bad example.

Now, the fact that the Camry outsells the Altima and the Accord, BOTH of which are better cars than the Malibu, G6, Regal, previous Impala, and Camry, is a testament to why #1 in sales does not necessarily mean you're the best.

[bowtie_dude]

Since I love to play devil's advocate, the base Malibu's interior isn't ANYTHING to brag about. ... Of course, I can't SHOW you that since there are no pictures of a base Malibu interior at Chevrolet. But trust me, its on par with the Camry. And what makes that bad is that the current Camry interior is circa MY2002.

[cmattson]

As a Malibu owner, I agree with you completely that the Malibu interior isn't anything to brag about; but is the Malibu considered a premium vehicle and does the Malibu command a premium price? Does the running-jdpa initial quality AND vehicle durability-running Malibu have the vaunted reputation the Camry carry? No. It just furthers my point that perception is king.

BTW, here's where the Malibu finishes for jdpa initial quality:
2005: #1 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=984
2004: #3 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=854
2003: #1 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=736
2002: #1 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=625
2001: #2 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=517

* = in case you are interested, the Malibu finished behind the Sonata and the Alero in 2004, and behind the Altima in 2001.

And for vehicle durability:

2005: #1 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=996
2004: #1 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=860
2003: #1 - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=749
2002: #x - http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressr...asp?StudyID=692
2001: information not available.

* - 2002 winners were: Cirrus, Altima, Breeze (Malibu did not place)

Anybody see the Camry or the Accord in there for the last half-decade? The current model Accord/Camry simply are NOT the industry benchmarks they once were! The Malibu has excellent hp/torque/gas mileage and unbeatable initial quality/durability rankings.

Lastly, if you price out the Camry:
4cyl:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/toyota/cam...tmv.1.1.Toyota*
6cyl:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/toyota/cam...tmv.1.1.Toyota*
In comparison to the Malibu:
4cyl:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/chevrolet/....1.1.Chevrolet*
6cyl:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/chevrolet/....1.1.Chevrolet*

You'll see that the Malibu would save you an average of $2k up front. If you finance your purchase - as most people do, you'll spend roughly another $200 in interest if you finance @ 5% over 5 years - which appears to be the most common going rate.

Now let's check out kbb resale values for the '04 models ('04 is the oldest year for the current model Malibu):
http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.ur?kbb....0Malibu&2;CH;A1
http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.ur?kbb....amry&2;TO;B0&&&
Hmm.. $16685 - $14670 = $2015.. roughly the same spread as the initial purchase price. See what happens when GM skips the discount & directly discounts the price? The resale value myth is completely busted.

Quite simply, GM's Malibu is one of the industries best values. Period.

[sciguy_0504]

No midsize family car can be considered premium. That's more like Avalon, 500, Impala.