The Future of Pontiac - Autoweek

[Northstar]

The current lineup isn't the question. What we're talking about here what GM does in the future. Whatever GM plans to give Pontiac in the future (including the G8) could find a comfortable place at Chevrolet. Of course, you might have to give up your red guages and split grill. I doubt many would cry over that.

Does anyone really doubt that the next Impala SS will be just as much of a performer as the G8 and sell at much higher volumes??? I'm sure it'll be "sport-tuned" very well. And Chevy could easily stratify the lineup to please buyers looking for that size car with LS, LT and LTZ trims. Add in a long-wheelbase Caprice instead of a Park Avenue and you've got even more volume and profit rolling in.

No, the Alpha car could not find a spot at Chevy. It would create too much confusion anywhere besides Pontiac and Buick, and it doesn't really fit in at Buick.

The Impala SS is going to be performance-oriented, yes, but re-read what I wrote and notice that I said there are people who want something more performance-oriented but not the big engine. The LS, LT, and LTZ aren't going to be performance oriented, they'll be rather boring to drive, I suspect.

No one who wants a $40k Buick buys a Chevy. They'd either go to Chrysler for the 300 or somewhere else. A Caprice may bring in more buyers, but it's not going to bring in Buick buyers.

Another key difference between the G8 and Impala is size. The G8 is on the SWB Zeta and the Impala is on the LWB Zeta. I expect the Impala will probably be 10 inches longer than the G8.

[buyacargetacheck]

You're right. I'd fully expect the Olds situation to repeat itself.

But the question is this: what's going to help GM grow? Should GM take the current path where market share shrinks year after year and Buick and Pontiac sales fall? Or proactively give up 50% of Buick's and Pontiac's (unprofitable) sales (250K-300K units) in order to grow Chevrolet by giving Chevrolet BP's vehicles? Or, just as well, take the Buick/Pontiac marketing/engineering money and attempt to get Chevrolet's customer satisfaction and quality scores up to where Toyota's are?

I see GM doing nothing to curb the overall slide or grow Chevy. At best they're treading water.

You're making a big, and dangerous, assumption: that GM can force people into an Impala because there isn't a G8 or Park Avenue available for them to buy. The same assumption was made when GM killed Olds. We all know how that turned out, right? The fact is, that no matter what you do, some people will just never buy a Chevy. In the GM hierarchy Chevy has always been the volume, mainstream division. Anyone looking for "more" from an image standpoint (yet can't afford a Caddy) won't give an Impala a second glance. And I'm saying all this as a Chevy die-hard. This is where Buick and Pontiac come in.

[buyacargetacheck]

No, the Alpha car could not find a spot at Chevy. It would create too much confusion anywhere besides Pontiac and Buick

Why would it create confusion? It's another choice. Call it Chevelle.

No one who wants a $40k Buick buys a Chevy. They'd either go to Chrysler for the 300 or somewhere else. A Caprice may bring in more buyers, but it's not going to bring in Buick buyers.

That's funny. Who's lining up NOW to pay $40,000 for a Buick? Most of the Enclaves are going for under 35. But as a Cadillac it could sell for higher.

Another key difference between the G8 and Impala is size. The G8 is on the SWB Zeta and the Impala is on the LWB Zeta. I expect the Impala will probably be 10 inches longer than the G8.

There's no reason why GM couldn't sell a SWB Zeta as a Chevy instead of the G8 in addition to a LWB Impala and Caprice. Bel-Air might be a good name. Better than G8.

[Northstar]

Why would it create confusion? It's another choice. Call it Chevelle.

People don't research cars as we here on the forums do. They would wonder why there are two Chevys the same size sitting in the same showroom. They wouldn't realize that one is for performance enthusiasts and one is for everyone else.

That's funny. Who's lining up NOW to pay $40,000 for a Buick? Most of the Enclaves are going for under 35. But as a Cadillac it could sell for higher.

Who says most Enclaves are going for under $35k? I haven't seen one on the lot for less than $43k.

There's no reason why GM couldn't sell a SWB Zeta as a Chevy instead of the G8 in addition to a LWB Impala and Caprice. Bel-Air might be a good name. Better than G8.

So you want Chevy to have 8 sedans? You just proved the point that there is a need for Pontiac and Buick. There's no need for 8 Chevy sedans. You say you want more engineering money for Chevy, but really you just said to convert the Pontiacs and Buicks to Chevys... so where is your extra engineering money? The only vehicle you eliminated by killing Buick and Pontiac is the LaCrosse and you added the Caprice. So really you end up with the same number of vehicles. You obviously think there is a need for these sportier and more upscale platform mates of the Chevys, but you just don't want them to be called "Pontiac" or "Buick."

[z28luvr01]

But the question is this: what's going to help GM grow? Should GM take the current path where market share shrinks year after year and Buick and Pontiac sales fall? Or proactively give up 50% of Buick's and Pontiac's (unprofitable) sales (250K-300K units) in order to grow Chevrolet by giving Chevrolet BP's vehicles? Or, just as well, take the Buick/Pontiac marketing/engineering money and attempt to get Chevrolet's customer satisfaction and quality scores up to where Toyota's are?

GM's not yet in a position to help itself grow. First it has to shrink to a point to where it can be profitable. If they're not at that point now, they're close to it. GM will grow itself by earning conquest sales from the imports via top-notch product from all of its arms. Buick and Pontiac's sales numbers have been artifically high for years due to GM dumping them on Avis and Alamo lots. I don't have exact sales numbers in front of me, but as an example, if you took away all the GP's fleet sales, actual sales numbers would be a lot closer to the number of G8s that GM expects to sell. If Buick, Pontiac, and GMC sales combined simulate a moderate to good-performing full line brand, there's no need to kill any of them.

[Cory Wolfe]

People don't research cars as we here on the forums do. They would wonder why there are two Chevys the same size sitting in the same showroom. They wouldn't realize that one is for performance enthusiasts and one is for everyone else.

So you want Chevy to have 8 sedans? You just proved the point that there is a need for Pontiac and Buick. There's no need for 8 Chevy sedans. You say you want more engineering money for Chevy, but really you just said to convert the Pontiacs and Buicks to Chevys... so where is your extra engineering money? The only vehicle you eliminated by killing Buick and Pontiac is the LaCrosse and you added the Caprice. So really you end up with the same number of vehicles. You obviously think there is a need for these sportier and more upscale platform mates of the Chevys, but you just don't want them to be called "Pontiac" or "Buick."

GM's not yet in a position to help itself grow. First it has to shrink to a point to where it can be profitable. If they're not at that point now, they're close to it. GM will grow itself by earning conquest sales from the imports via top-notch product from all of its arms. Buick and Pontiac's sales numbers have been artifically high for years due to GM dumping them on Avis and Alamo lots. I don't have exact sales numbers in front of me, but as an example, if you took away all the GP's fleet sales, actual sales numbers would be a lot closer to the number of G8s that GM expects to sell. If Buick, Pontiac, and GMC sales combined simulate a moderate to good-performing full line brand, there's no need to kill any of them.

Once again, sanity prevails.

[ZL-1]

No one who wants a $40k Buick buys a Chevy. They'd either go to Chrysler for the 300 or somewhere else. A Caprice may bring in more buyers, but it's not going to bring in Buick buyers.

Since Buick's fanbase is kinda skewed towards the older crowd, wouldn't that be a good thing in the long run?

[Northstar]

Since Buick's fanbase is kinda skewed towards the older crowd, wouldn't that be a good thing in the long run?

I didn't think about that, but I don't see why 40 year olds wouldn't pick a Buick over a Chevy for the same price.

[Camino LS6]

All of this mental masturbation about killing brands is utterly pointless, it isn't in GM's plan - get over it.

GM is downsizing, just not by killing brands.

1. Overlap models are being eliminated

2. Fleets sales are being decreased

3. unneeded fringe businesses are being sold-off

4. the workforce is being re-sized to fit the market

5.surplus plants are being closed

6. Three full line brands are being consolidated into one sales channel, leaving GM with what actually amounts to one brand in the old sense of the term.

7. marginal dealerships are being phased out.

8. each year the products become more brand - focused.

The results?

1. Quality is up

2. production costs are down

3. production efficiency has matched Toyota

4. Reviews of product and the business itself are much more positive.

5.Awards and top rankings in surveys are coming one after the other.

6. GM as a corporation is *gasp* profitable

7. GM has large cash reserves

8. GM has a good bargaining position with the UAW for the first time in forever.

9. Overseas, GM is doing very well in expanding markets

10. Global product development is making so much more possible at a profit

Talk of killing brands is pure foolishness. GM has a plan and it is working.

What we should be doing here is deciding what these brands should be rather than planning their demise.

I see the state of both Buick and Pontiac as an opportunity to truly define what each brand means and tailor cars to that image. Now that these two are no longer saddled with being all things to all people, they can be themselves again. The G8 and the Park Avenue are good places to start, and the end of the dreadful W-bodies signals a change for the better.

One final note: LA is not the nation.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I didn't think about that, but I don't see why 40 year olds wouldn't pick a Buick over a Chevy for the same price.

Speaking as a 38 (Almost 40) year old, I would never buy a Buick, in my mind that's a car my grandfather might buy, but not me!

[A Horse With No Name]

What, the 350 under the hood doesn't count as Chevy-derived? Your GTO may not be a Chevy but it is a Holden, Australia's Chevy! It's definitely not a Pontiac (whatever that is).

The thing that bothers me about Pontiac and Buick and Saturn and GMC is that they are not genuine. They're fakes. They're just nameplates that represent a better past. Much like finding the Polaroid or Westinghouse name on Chinese-made electronics. Sometimes pretty good stuff, but they might as well wear the names of the the real companies that engineered and manufactured them because they have no connection to the people and processes that made those great American names great. The consumer is simply taken for fools and milked. In Pontiac's case, the real company is GM North America (for the most part), better known at the retail level as Chevrolet (of course, except Cadillac which has been let loose a bit because it plays in a higher margin segment).

Meanwhile, Chevy takes hits from starboard and port while Captain Bob and Admiral Richard rearrange the broken deck chairs (the aforementioned nameplates).

Sorry, I can't imagine the level of masochism (or booze) necessary to be a Chevy salesman these days.

I can relate on the lost American heritage part...

Chris

[Northstar]

Speaking as a 38 (Almost 40) year old, I would never buy a Buick, in my mind that's a car my grandfather might buy, but not me!

You're taking my quote as "a 40 year old is more likely to buy a Buick than a Chevy" when what it really implied was "a 40 year old is more likely to buy a $40k Buick than a $40k Chevy."

Would you buy a luxurious 4 door sedan? Currently, you drive a somewhat sporty 4-door sedan that is not at all luxurious. You seem to be more interested more in speed than luxury to me. 40 year olds looking for luxury are much more likely to buy a $40k Buick than a $40k Chevy. In the professional world, a Chevy is laughed upon, but not a Buick. I know quite a few people who drive Buicks who probably have enough money to buy a Cadillac, but like the understated-ness of the Buick and would never be caught dead driving a Chevy.

For example, I know a lawyer who drives a fully loaded Lucerne (even has NAV). He also has a Corvette (not your typical Chevy, so don't pull that one) and a Denali. He's plenty rich (has a house in Flordia and Michigan along with multiple boats) and he would never buy a Chevy. He might buy a Cadillac if Buick was killed, but there are other people who don't want the flash of the Cadillac.

[91z4me]

In the professional world, a Chevy is laughed upon, but not a Buick. I know quite a few people who drive Buicks who probably have enough money to buy a Cadillac, but like the understated-ness of the Buick and would never be caught dead driving a Chevy.

On the Apprentice Caroyln drove a Park Ave and I really doubt that was product placement.

[frogger]

I think I see about a Lucerne a month, though when I'm up in small town retiree cottage land I see a few per weekend.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Why would it create confusion? It's another choice. Call it Chevelle.

That's funny. Who's lining up NOW to pay $40,000 for a Buick? Most of the Enclaves are going for under 35. But as a Cadillac it could sell for higher.

There's no reason why GM couldn't sell a SWB Zeta as a Chevy instead of the G8 in addition to a LWB Impala and Caprice. Bel-Air might be a good name. Better than G8.

Since GM should be able badge everything as a Chevy, why couldn't Toyota(according to the media the ultimate brand) sell the current Scion line-up as Toyotas? Why did they have to create a whole new brand and take money away from Toyota?

Different brands are meant to fit different themes. When you see a brand, it should have a certain image in your mind. Pontiac should be sports car, excellent handling. What would Chevy be? Kia competitor with the Aveo?

GM's many brands are an advantage if used correctly, not a disadvantage.

What next? Kill Jeep and make them all Dodges?

[buyacargetacheck]

I've never seen anyone driving around in a $40,000 Buick here in LA, the country's largest market. However, you see plenty of $40,000+ Chevy Tahoes, Suburbans and Corvettes all decked out on nearly every street corner and in nearly every neighborhood. The people who drive these vehicles are certainly professionals: attorneys, real estate agents, business owners and physicians.

You're taking my quote as "a 40 year old is more likely to buy a Buick than a Chevy" when what it really implied was "a 40 year old is more likely to buy a $40k Buick than a $40k Chevy."

Would you buy a luxurious 4 door sedan? Currently, you drive a somewhat sporty 4-door sedan that is not at all luxurious. You seem to be more interested more in speed than luxury to me. 40 year olds looking for luxury are much more likely to buy a $40k Buick than a $40k Chevy. In the professional world, a Chevy is laughed upon, but not a Buick. I know quite a few people who drive Buicks who probably have enough money to buy a Cadillac, but like the understated-ness of the Buick and would never be caught dead driving a Chevy.

For example, I know a lawyer who drives a fully loaded Lucerne (even has NAV). He also has a Corvette (not your typical Chevy, so don't pull that one) and a Denali. He's plenty rich (has a house in Flordia and Michigan along with multiple boats) and he would never buy a Chevy. He might buy a Cadillac if Buick was killed, but there are other people who don't want the flash of the Cadillac.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I've never seen anyone driving around in a $40,000 Buick here in LA, the country's largest market. However, you see plenty of $40,000+ Chevy Tahoes, Suburbans and Corvettes all decked out on nearly every street corner and in nearly every neighborhood. The people who drive these vehicles are certainly professionals: attorneys, real estate agents, business owners and physicians.

We already know Chevy has a great image....... for trucks. The Corvette is an exception, and is talked about as if it were it's own brand.

[buyacargetacheck]

It has worked for Toyota. It hasn't for GM. What can you say?

I can say that after watching GM "turn the corner" since about 1981 my expectations are lower than low. Pontiac and Buick have no or low images. Granted, I love Buick's "skyhook" ride and quietness. But guess what? Toyota also has that in the Camry. But wait. Isn't the Malibu the Camry's natural competitor? Yes, that's why the Malibu must also offer a quiet, comfortable ride to be competitive. That's what most American buyers want. Where does that leave Buick? I guess at the golf course with Tiger?

Jeep, of course, has an excellent image that no one disputes. Everyone knows what a Jeep is.

Since GM should be able badge everything as a Chevy, why couldn't Toyota(according to the media the ultimate brand) sell the current Scion line-up as Toyotas? Why did they have to create a whole new brand and take money away from Toyota?

Different brands are meant to fit different themes. When you see a brand, it should have a certain image in your mind. Pontiac should be sports car, excellent handling. What would Chevy be? Kia competitor with the Aveo?

GM's many brands are an advantage if used correctly, not a disadvantage.

What next? Kill Jeep and make them all Dodges?

[Northstar]

I've never seen anyone driving around in a $40,000 Buick here in LA, the country's largest market. However, you see plenty of $40,000+ Chevy Tahoes, Suburbans and Corvettes all decked out on nearly every street corner and in nearly every neighborhood. The people who drive these vehicles are certainly professionals: attorneys, real estate agents, business owners and physicians.

And notice that none of them are driving around Impalas, Malibus, or Cobalts, either.

LA and California in general does not reflect the general buying public everywhere. Here in the midwest, American cars are more popular.

Also, do you really think Chevy needs 8 sedans as you said before?

[Sixty8panther]

EPIPHONE:

Dumbed Down Sigma-based G5? Kind of like:

Mercedes E-class ----> Dodge Charger

Cadillac CTS ---------> Pontiac Grand Am/Sunbird (G5)

Why not?

[CaddyXLR-V]

It has worked for Toyota. It hasn't for GM. What can you say?

I can say that after watching GM "turn the corner" since about 1981 my expectations are lower than low. Pontiac and Buick have no or low images. Granted, I love Buick's "skyhook" ride and quietness. But guess what? Toyota also has that in the Camry. But wait. Isn't the Malibu the Camry's natural competitor? Yes, that's why the Malibu must also offer a quiet, comfortable ride to be competitive. That's what most American buyers want. Where does that leave Buick? I guess at the golf course with Tiger?

Jeep, of course, has an excellent image that no one disputes. Everyone knows what a Jeep is.

That's because GM has been doing it all wrong. GM was making 4 versions of the same car, and giving one to each brand. That watered down each brands image. GM should instead have combined Buick/Pontiac/GMC a long time ago, gave them each only a few cars/trucks, but made each one fit their image better. Pontiac shouldn't never have been selling Sunfires. GM should have been selling Monaros and Commodores here as Pontiacs for the past 10+ years.

[CaddyXLR-V]

EPIPHONE:

Dumbed Down Sigma-based G5? Kind of like:

Mercedes E-class ----> Dodge Charger

Cadillac CTS ---------> Pontiac Grand Am/Sunbird (G5)

Why not?

That's what Alpha will be for.....hopefully. But It would be more G6 than G5

[buyacargetacheck]

First, I have nothing against American cars (own one) nor the Midwest (have lived there).

But, you cannot deny the importance of California as a market. Nearly 1 in 7 Americans lives here. And the South and Northeast are very friendly to foreign nameplates - have been for years. The trend away from American nameplates especially in California is a bellwether for the rest of the country. This cannot be denied.

I never said anything about 8 sedans. Chevy could do well with:

Aveo

Cobalt

Alpha (if it ever comes to fruition)

Malibu

Impala (SWB Zeta instead of G8)

Caprice (LWB Zeta instead of Park Avenue/Lucerne)

Frankly, though, I think Zeta sedans may be a mistake come 2012 or so when we're paying nearly $5/gal for gas. Even the front drive Avalon with its good mpg will lack buyers then. But that's another thread...

And notice that none of them are driving around Impalas, Malibus, or Cobalts, either.

LA and California in general does not reflect the general buying public everywhere. Here in the midwest, American cars are more popular.

Also, do you really think Chevy needs 8 sedans as you said before?

[Camino LS6]

my expectations are lower than low.

Says it all.

[buyacargetacheck]

You mean like the way GM is going to build 4 different versions of the same Lambda crossover? With 2 in the same dealership? What GM says and what GM does are two different things. Same with any company.

If Pontiac hadn't been selling Sunfires (and Sunbirds and J2000s before that) there might not be any Pontiac to talk about today. GM likes to talk about (and so do we here) how Pontiac is the performance brand. That's mostly fantasy and mythology. Pontiac hasn't been consistently such since the sixties. Ancient history.

Thank goodness GM wasn't selling Holdens here 10 years ago. The quality until recently was abysmal. To all you Holden lovers: this division isn't GM's saving grace. They have a cool platform called Zeta, but they produce fewer vehicles than damaged Buick sells in the US alone.

That's because GM has been doing it all wrong. GM was making 4 versions of the same car, and giving one to each brand. That watered down each brands image. GM should instead have combined Buick/Pontiac/GMC a long time ago, gave them each only a few cars/trucks, but made each one fit their image better. Pontiac shouldn't never have been selling Sunfires. GM should have been selling Monaros and Commodores here as Pontiacs for the past 10+ years.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You mean like the way GM is going to build 4 different versions of the same Lambda crossover? With 2 in the same dealership? What GM says and what GM does are two different things. Same with any company.

If Pontiac hadn't been selling Sunfires (and Sunbirds and J2000s before that) there might not be any Pontiac to talk about today. GM likes to talk about (and so do we here) how Pontiac is the performance brand. That's mostly fantasy and mythology. Pontiac hasn't been consistently such since the sixties. Ancient history.

Thank goodness GM wasn't selling Holdens here 10 years ago. The quality until recently was abysmal. To all you Holden lovers: this division isn't GM's saving grace. They have a cool platform called Zeta, but they produce fewer vehicles than damaged Buick sells in the US alone.

Are you sure you weren't in that TIC TOCK meeting?

[Robert Hall]

If Pontiac hadn't been selling Sunfires (and Sunbirds and J2000s before that) there might not be any Pontiac to talk about today. GM likes to talk about (and so do we here) how Pontiac is the performance brand. That's mostly fantasy and mythology. Pontiac hasn't been consistently such since the sixties. Ancient history.

True..except for the Solstice, Pontiac currently is an Avis brand..providing rental cars slightly more 'sporty' than Chevy rental cars.

[Northstar]

First, I have nothing against American cars (own one) nor the Midwest (have lived there).

But, you cannot deny the importance of California as a market. Nearly 1 in 7 Americans lives here. And the South and Northeast are very friendly to foreign nameplates - have been for years. The trend away from American nameplates especially in California is a bellwether for the rest of the country. This cannot be denied.

I never said anything about 8 sedans. Chevy could do well with:

Aveo

Cobalt

Alpha (if it ever comes to fruition)

Malibu

Impala (SWB Zeta instead of G8)

Caprice (LWB Zeta instead of Park Avenue/Lucerne)

Frankly, though, I think Zeta sedans may be a mistake come 2012 or so when we're paying nearly $5/gal for gas. Even the front drive Avalon with its good mpg will lack buyers then. But that's another thread...

Sure, California is an important market, but you cannot base GM's needs simply on the California market, especially when it is obviously much different from half of the rest of the markets.

You said you wanted a SWB Zeta under the Impala, LWB Impala, LWB Caprice, and the Alpha all to be Chevys in addition to the Malibu (and Aveo and Cobalt). I guess I miss counted. Still, that's 7, and it's still nearly as many as GM plans to spread out over Chevy, Buick, and Pontiac. Before you were clamoring for Chevy to get more money to develop products, but really you are just saying to have nearly the same number of products, but just call them all Chevys.

I don't see the problem with there being 3-4 Pontiacs and 3-4 Buicks. GM needs to develop vehicles for the markets that those vehicles are meant to fill, anyways, so why not do it under an existing nameplate that, while it hasn't always filled those holes in the past, still targeted those markets and were marketed as sporty or luxurious vehicles. Plus, all of those vehicles would be on shared architectures. The only thing they would cost GM would be the cost to develop unique sheetmetal and interiors. Look...

Enclave = Lambda... costs are well spread out between 4 divisions and at least 5 vehicles (at least 1 minivan is still on).

LaCrosse = EP II... global platform spread out between countless brands and probably 1 million units per year worldwide

Lucerne = Zeta... again a global platform with probably 1 million units worldwide

Possible 4th vehicle (probably CUV below the Enclave or a Zeta coupe) = Theta/TE or Zeta... meaning it either shares costs with the 9-4x and BRX or Equinox and GMC counterpart or if it's the coupe all the Zeta vehicles.

G8 = Zeta... see above

"G6" = Alpha... Cadillac's car needs something to help the costs be spread out, and Holden is getting one anyways. So make it the same as Holden's with unique fascias. That's a $50 million development cost... very cheap.

Solstice = Kappa. This is much lower volume but obviously it's cheap to produce. The Solstice and Kappa were made from the ground up for $250 mil.

Possibly a GTO = Zeta... see above. Again just unique sheetmetal on a platform that's already paid for.

[Camino LS6]

All of this mental masturbation about killing brands is utterly pointless, it isn't in GM's plan - get over it.

GM is downsizing, just not by killing brands.

1. Overlap models are being eliminated

2. Fleets sales are being decreased

3. unneeded fringe businesses are being sold-off

4. the workforce is being re-sized to fit the market

5.surplus plants are being closed

6. Three full line brands are being consolidated into one sales channel, leaving GM with what actually amounts to one brand in the old sense of the term.

7. marginal dealerships are being phased out.

8. each year the products become more brand - focused.

The results?

1. Quality is up

2. production costs are down

3. production efficiency has matched Toyota

4. Reviews of product and the business itself are much more positive.

5.Awards and top rankings in surveys are coming one after the other.

6. GM as a corporation is *gasp* profitable

7. GM has large cash reserves

8. GM has a good bargaining position with the UAW for the first time in forever.

9. Overseas, GM is doing very well in expanding markets

10. Global product development is making so much more possible at a profit

Talk of killing brands is pure foolishness. GM has a plan and it is working.

What we should be doing here is deciding what these brands should be rather than planning their demise.

I see the state of both Buick and Pontiac as an opportunity to truly define what each brand means and tailor cars to that image. Now that these two are no longer saddled with being all things to all people, they can be themselves again. The G8 and the Park Avenue are good places to start, and the end of the dreadful W-bodies signals a change for the better.

One final note: LA is not the nation.

I hate to repeat myself, but...

[balthazar]

That's a great post, Camino!

x3 : "All of this mental masturbation about killing brands is utterly pointless, it isn't in GM's plan - get over it."

[Camino LS6]

Thank you, Sir.

:AH-HA_wink:

[ZL-1]

I didn't think about that, but I don't see why 40 year olds wouldn't pick a Buick over a Chevy for the same price.

Well, Chevrolet already builds something that offers value and still is a great car. It's called the Corvette. Cost issues aside, why not extend that philosophy to all Chevrolet models and get rid of all the overlap in the middle of the market once and for all?

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I am still enjoying the conversation here.