The Future of Pontiac - Autoweek

[buyacargetacheck]

Pontiac is toast. The only reasons I can see for it being kept is to keep the Chevy factories' utilization numbers up and also to avoid confrontation with the pitiful dealer body. Profitability (apparently) has nothing to do with it. Someone mentioned a lack of new Pontiac Oakland club members. Totally laughable. Does anyone really get excited enough about a split grill and red guages to endure terrible resale values and old Chevy platforms?

Pontiac (as Baby-Boomers like the AutoExtremist remember it) has been dead for 30 years. Since then it's been a Chevy with a red badge. Coming up next is a line of rear-drive hogs at exactly the wrong time: recession, depression and peak-oil. Then, GM's creditors will be forced to bury the thing for good.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Pontiac is toast. The only reasons I can see for it being kept is to keep the Chevy factories' utilization numbers up and also to avoid confrontation with the pitiful dealer body. Profitability (apparently) has nothing to do with it. Someone mentioned a lack of new Pontiac Oakland club members. Totally laughable. Does anyone really get excited enough about a split grill and red guages to endure terrible resale values and old Chevy platforms?

Pontiac (as Baby-Boomers like the AutoExtremist remember it) has been dead for 30 years. Since then it's been a Chevy with a red badge. Coming up next is a line of rear-drive hogs at exactly the wrong time: recession, depression and peak-oil. Then, GM's creditors will be forced to bury the thing for good.

Were you at the Tic Toc meeting too?

[ZL-1]

All this "tic toc" talk reminds me of "Frantic tick tick tick tick tick tick tock"

EDIT - If the thing isn't profitable, it's just a matter of figuring out how much it costs to let it die a pityful death versus how much it costs to shoot it in the head and end it once and for all. Something I read (Jack Welch about GE's approach): if it isn't nr1 or nr2 in its industry (or worse, if it is economically/finiancially distressed), a subsidiary is evaluated for (i) recovery/reaching nr1 or nr2 , (ii) sale or (iii) to be shut down.

Edited August 13, 2007 by ZL-1

[buyacargetacheck]

You can just about see the future from here. The G8 will do its best sales in year one. Unfortunately, the press will pan the dull-uninspired-seen-it-before looks and the folks who can actually afford such a car will continue to buy the base 3-series (except for the monied Pontiac geeks - both of them). Sales will fall after that as GM focuses on its next patient/project and the lack of marketing dollars eventually leads it to obscurity a la GTO. The G6 will continue to service Avis as retail sales languish. The G5 will continue to be ignored. Solstice sales will fall as the thrill is gone.

Why bother? GM, focus on Chevrolet before it's too late!

Were you at the Tic Toc meeting too?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Pontiac is toast. The only reasons I can see for it being kept is to keep the Chevy factories' utilization numbers up and also to avoid confrontation with the pitiful dealer body. Profitability (apparently) has nothing to do with it. Someone mentioned a lack of new Pontiac Oakland club members. Totally laughable. Does anyone really get excited enough about a split grill and red guages to endure terrible resale values and old Chevy platforms?

Pontiac (as Baby-Boomers like the AutoExtremist remember it) has been dead for 30 years. Since then it's been a Chevy with a red badge. Coming up next is a line of rear-drive hogs at exactly the wrong time: recession, depression and peak-oil. Then, GM's creditors will be forced to bury the thing for good.

So rear drive means bad gas mileage? Also, their's nothing remotely Chevy in my Pontiac, unless the Monaro was sold in other markets as a Chevy, and I have green gauges. Seems like Pontiac can't win with you. Either it's a Chevy clone with red gauges, or if GM does the opposite, it's a RWD hog. Let me guess, salesman at a Chevy dealership?

[Camino LS6]

Pontiac isn't going away - period.

[buyacargetacheck]

What, the 350 under the hood doesn't count as Chevy-derived? Your GTO may not be a Chevy but it is a Holden, Australia's Chevy! It's definitely not a Pontiac (whatever that is).

The thing that bothers me about Pontiac and Buick and Saturn and GMC is that they are not genuine. They're fakes. They're just nameplates that represent a better past. Much like finding the Polaroid or Westinghouse name on Chinese-made electronics. Sometimes pretty good stuff, but they might as well wear the names of the the real companies that engineered and manufactured them because they have no connection to the people and processes that made those great American names great. The consumer is simply taken for fools and milked. In Pontiac's case, the real company is GM North America (for the most part), better known at the retail level as Chevrolet (of course, except Cadillac which has been let loose a bit because it plays in a higher margin segment).

Meanwhile, Chevy takes hits from starboard and port while Captain Bob and Admiral Richard rearrange the broken deck chairs (the aforementioned nameplates).

Sorry, I can't imagine the level of masochism (or booze) necessary to be a Chevy salesman these days.

So rear drive means bad gas mileage? Also, their's nothing remotely Chevy in my Pontiac, unless the Monaro was sold in other markets as a Chevy, and I have green gauges. Seems like Pontiac can't win with you. Either it's a Chevy clone with red gauges, or if GM does the opposite, it's a RWD hog. Let me guess, salesman at a Chevy dealership?

[buyacargetacheck]

Not in the next 5 minutes. But after that I wouldn't be a betting man.

Pontiac isn't going away - period.

[Robert Hall]

What, the 350 under the hood doesn't count as Chevy-derived? Your GTO may not be a Chevy but it is a Holden, Australia's Chevy! It's definitely not a Pontiac (whatever that is).

'350'? The GTO used a 5.7 and a 6.0 GM V8..they haven't used cubic inch designations like '350' in decades...

But the GTO/Monaro was badged as a Chevy Lumina in some markets. However, it's not a rebadge of a US market Chevy the way the G5 is a rebadge of the Coblat.

Edited August 13, 2007 by moltar

[Northstar]

What, the 350 under the hood doesn't count as Chevy-derived? Your GTO may not be a Chevy but it is a Holden, Australia's Chevy! It's definitely not a Pontiac (whatever that is).

The thing that bothers me about Pontiac and Buick and Saturn and GMC is that they are not genuine. They're fakes. They're just nameplates that represent a better past. Much like finding the Polaroid or Westinghouse name on Chinese-made electronics. Sometimes pretty good stuff, but they might as well wear the names of the the real companies that engineered and manufactured them because they have no connection to the people and processes that made those great American names great. The consumer is simply taken for fools and milked. In Pontiac's case, the real company is GM North America (for the most part), better known at the retail level as Chevrolet (of course, except Cadillac which has been let loose a bit because it plays in a higher margin segment).

Meanwhile, Chevy takes hits from starboard and port while Captain Bob and Admiral Richard rearrange the broken deck chairs (the aforementioned nameplates).

Sorry, I can't imagine the level of masochism (or booze) necessary to be a Chevy salesman these days.

There's no such thing as a GTO with a 350 under the hood.

If GM killed all brands besides Chevy and Cadillac, sales would fall significantly. A lot of GMC buyers would go elsewhere (I think Sierra buyers would likely go to Toyota, Yukon as well) and very few people who buy a Buick are interested in a Chevy. If GM makes Pontiac into a RWD-only brand, there's a viable reason to keep it. There's no need for Chevy to have a midsize FWD car and a midsize RWD car. That's what Pontiac is for, and it would cause a lot of confusion for Chevy to have both FWD and RWD midsizers. Buick could possibly have a midsize RWD car, but it doesn't have the somewhat sporty image that Pontiac does.

Killing all those brands would cripple GM. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to close all those dealerships and assembly plants? The price paid to employees per vehicle built would skyrocket as at least a million less vehicles would be sold and GM would still have the same set costs. GMNA would be dead as we know it. Captain Bob and Admiral Richard wouldn't be rearranging the broken deck chairs, they'd be calling the Coast Guard because their ship capsized and had 5 minutes left before going under.

[buyacargetacheck]

The 2004 GTO had the Chevy Corvette LS1 5.7L (350ci). Maybe you have an LS2 6L (also Chevy-derived)?

Yes, killing brands would have the effect of losing sales. But have you not noticed that sales are already falling!!!??? Have been for years. And, arguably, the sales decline would not be as bad as you might guess given that much of Pontiac and Buick sales are STILL rental fleet, and fleet buyers don't care about nameplates (they'd be just as fine with Classics instead of G6s). GM just doesn't have the talent or money or time to resuscitate Buick and Pontiac. Even if Lutz could snap his fingers and have a perfect showroom lineup now for both brands what would the encore look like? History has shown that GM would not be able to sustain excitement for one hot model much less an entire lineup. We'll see this in a couple of years with the Enclave. Sales look good now because Buick has been starved. Same thing happened with the Rendezvous. But once a couple of years slide by the excitement is over and the next replacement is years away. Meanwhile, Toyota and Lexus eat their lunch while bread-n-butter Chevy gets by with table scraps.

There's no such thing as a GTO with a 350 under the hood.

If GM killed all brands besides Chevy and Cadillac, sales would fall significantly. A lot of GMC buyers would go elsewhere (I think Sierra buyers would likely go to Toyota, Yukon as well) and very few people who buy a Buick are interested in a Chevy. If GM makes Pontiac into a RWD-only brand, there's a viable reason to keep it. There's no need for Chevy to have a midsize FWD car and a midsize RWD car. That's what Pontiac is for, and it would cause a lot of confusion for Chevy to have both FWD and RWD midsizers. Buick could possibly have a midsize RWD car, but it doesn't have the somewhat sporty image that Pontiac does.

Killing all those brands would cripple GM. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to close all those dealerships and assembly plants? The price paid to employees per vehicle built would skyrocket as at least a million less vehicles would be sold and GM would still have the same set costs. GMNA would be dead as we know it. Captain Bob and Admiral Richard wouldn't be rearranging the broken deck chairs, they'd be calling the Coast Guard because their ship capsized and had 5 minutes left before going under.

[Northstar]

The 2004 GTO had the Chevy Corvette LS1 5.7L (350ci). Maybe you have an LS2 6L (also Chevy-derived)?

Yes, killing brands would have the effect of losing sales. But have you not noticed that sales are already falling!!!??? Have been for years. And, arguably, the sales decline would not be as bad as you might guess given that much of Pontiac and Buick sales are STILL rental fleet, and fleet buyers don't care about nameplates (they'd be just as fine with Classics instead of G6s). GM just doesn't have the talent or money or time to resuscitate Buick and Pontiac. Even if Lutz could snap his fingers and have a perfect showroom lineup now for both brands what would the encore look like? History has shown that GM would not be able to sustain excitement for one hot model much less an entire lineup. We'll see this in a couple of years with the Enclave. Sales look good now because Buick has been starved. Same thing happened with the Rendezvous. But once a couple of years slide by the excitement is over and the next replacement is years away. Meanwhile, Toyota and Lexus eat their lunch while bread-n-butter Chevy gets by with table scraps.

The LS1 is not 350 ci :AH-HA_wink:

Closing down the other brands would do more damage than giving Chevy more money to make better products would. Chevy only appeals to so many people. Toyota doesn't have the problem of unions, heath care, etc., bogging them down. There's nothing wrong with keeping Pontiac and Buick around if they're only going to have 3-4 models each. That's not hurting Chevy very much.

[buyacargetacheck]

OK, since we're going to play geek squad here you're right - it's 346ci.

The original point was that the LS1 is a Chevrolet engine (or at least recognized as such even though it was designed by GM Powertrain). CaddyXLR's GTO, therefore, does share some Chevy parts. Question: When's a Pontiac not a Pontiac? Answer: When it's a Holden with a Chevy engine. :AH-HA_wink:

The LS1 is not 350 ci :AH-HA_wink:

Closing down the other brands would do more damage than giving Chevy more money to make better products would. Chevy only appeals to so many people. Toyota doesn't have the problem of unions, heath care, etc., bogging them down. There's nothing wrong with keeping Pontiac and Buick around if they're only going to have 3-4 models each. That's not hurting Chevy very much.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I don't see anyone crying because Nissan uses their 3.5L in Infinitis and in regular Nissans, and I don't see anyone crying because Chevy is getting Cadillacs 3.6L. So why is it an issue with the GTO? And the 3.8L is based on a Buick design, and that engine has been in Chevies for years. Should Chevy be killed too, since they need to use Cadillac and Buick engines?

[CaddyXLR-V]

OK, since we're going to play geek squad here you're right - it's 346ci.

The original point was that the LS1 is a Chevrolet engine (or at least recognized as such even though it was designed by GM Powertrain). CaddyXLR's GTO, therefore, does share some Chevy parts. Question: When's a Pontiac not a Pontiac? Answer: When it's a Holden with a Chevy engine. :AH-HA_wink:

Well in that case, what is Scion? What is Acura? What is Infiniti? What is Lexus? All their cars are badged as something else in different countries. What is wrong with GM using their global resources as an advantage? It makes more sense to sell Holdens here as Pontiacs, than it does to sell them here as Holdens. I would be fine with Pontiac rebadging Holdens. It's a whole lot better than Pontiac rebadging Chevies.

[Robert Hall]

OK, since we're going to play geek squad here you're right - it's 346ci.

The original point was that the LS1 is a Chevrolet engine (or at least recognized as such even though it was designed by GM Powertrain). CaddyXLR's GTO, therefore, does share some Chevy parts. Question: When's a Pontiac not a Pontiac? Answer: When it's a Holden with a Chevy engine. :AH-HA_wink:

Whatever...the LS1 is a corporate engine. The GTO has the Pontiac badge, was registered as a Pontiac, and thus, is a Pontiac. It's not 1970 when each division had their own powertrains..

[buyacargetacheck]

Engine sharing between "premium" and mainstream makes is not the issue. Toyota does this well and there's no reason why this couldn't be done on a limited basis for Chevy and Cadillac. The point is that Pontiac and Buick have no or bad images. Yet, GM is embarking on a plan to remake them as premium brands. Problem is the competition is moving forward at the same time. There's not enough money in the world to justify the gamble. Instead of spending $$$ to sell 30,000 G8s in the first year, GM should spend the dollars on additional products to increase sales at Chevy. They'll get more bang for their buck. The Solstice, for example, would probably sell better as a Chevy than as a Pontiac and Saturn put together. As much as Buick buyers aren't interested in Chevies, the Lucerne I guarandamnteeyou would sell better as a Chevy Caprice than as a Lucerne (at the same price). Buick (in the US) and Pontiac are not going to be around in a few years. Why delay the inevitable while Chevy needs so much help? Will Toyota outselling Chevy finally wake Lutz and company up? Fine, let GMC do Chevy rebadges - dump the other two.

I don't see anyone crying because Nissan uses their 3.5L in Infinitis and in regular Nissans, and I don't see anyone crying because Chevy is getting Cadillacs 3.6L. So why is it an issue with the GTO? And the 3.8L is based on a Buick design, and that engine has been in Chevies for years. Should Chevy be killed too, since they need to use Cadillac and Buick engines?

Edited August 13, 2007 by buyacargetacheck

[CaddyXLR-V]

If GM kills Pontiac I might as well start buying BMWs instead.

[buyacargetacheck]

The Monaro GTO is a fine car. I think it'll do better as a Camaro.

Well in that case, what is Scion? What is Acura? What is Infiniti? What is Lexus? All their cars are badged as something else in different countries. What is wrong with GM using their global resources as an advantage? It makes more sense to sell Holdens here as Pontiacs, than it does to sell them here as Holdens. I would be fine with Pontiac rebadging Holdens. It's a whole lot better than Pontiac rebadging Chevies.

[Camino LS6]

The Monaro GTO is a fine car. I think it'll do better as a Camaro.

You are so far off base that I don't know where to begin.

The "Monaro GTO", as you so quaintly refer to it, has nothing whatsoever to do with the upcoming Camaro.

GM still sells about the same number of cars as they have for years, market share does not equal units sold.

You seem to have missed about six months' worth of positive news concerning GM.

Killing brands will only hurt GM, not help it. Those brands are, in fact, one of GM's strengths. Have they utilized them as well as they could? No, but progress is being made.

[cire]

If looks as though GM has decided to remake Pontiac into a niche brand. I think this is the way to go. With GM combining Pontiac, GMC, and Buick into one dealer network, all three brands will need to become niche brands instead of full scale makes. GM has way too many brands for each brand to be a full scale make. This may have been a major part of the problem all along. With each brand striving to be a full scale make, GM had to either offer each brand a badge engineered disaster of each model or spend large amounts of money to give each brand a distinct version of a model. With GM's current situation, this is no longer a valid way to do business with these brands. I also believe that it is too expensive to kill off a brand at this point.

Here's what I hope happens at Pontiac:

* Focus your products to fit Pontiac's role of affordable performance. The brand needs two sedan/coupe combos (compact-Alpha and midsize-Zeta), an affordable roadster/coupe (Kappa), and a performance sports coupe/convertible flagship (Zeta). All products need to be rear wheel drive. I think GM is already on their way to making this happen.

* I know the company has already invested valuable marketing dollars in the stupid alpha-numeric model system. I think this eliminates all passion from the brand. A solution might be to combine the alpha-numeric system with actual model names for the sedan/coupe combo vehicles. For instance, if you offer a corresponding midsize coupe and sedan on the Zeta platform, call the coupe the G7 Grand Prix and the sedan the G8 Grand Prix (the current front drive Grand Prix would be called the Grand Prix Classic for its final model year). If you offer a corresponding compact coupe and sedan on the Alpha platform, call the coupe the G5 LeMans and the sedan the G6 LeMans. This would keep Pontiac from losing marketing money on the alpha-numeric model system and would give enthusiasts back the model names they want. The affordable roadster/coupe would retain the Solstice name and the performance sports coupe/convertible would be called Firebird (Solstice and Firebird are exempt from the alpha-numeric/model name combo system).

* Pontiac would become sort of a genuine poor man's BMW for those who like performance sedans/coupes/convertibles, but can't afford the premium European price tags.

Sales would not be as great as in the past; but remember, Pontiac will be a niche brand. The basic engineering of the platforms of these vehicles will be shared with other brands worldwide to offset costs. I still believe Pontiac has a future if the plan is executed correctly.

Edited August 17, 2007 by cire

[gm4life]

This buy a car get a check man needs his brain exaimed. Seriously Buick or Pontiac aren't going anywhere. Bobby said so. Give them time to turn it around look how long it took Cadillac.

[Northstar]

OK, since we're going to play geek squad here you're right - it's 346ci.

The original point was that the LS1 is a Chevrolet engine (or at least recognized as such even though it was designed by GM Powertrain). CaddyXLR's GTO, therefore, does share some Chevy parts. Question: When's a Pontiac not a Pontiac? Answer: When it's a Holden with a Chevy engine. :AH-HA_wink:

According to what definition of a Pontiac is a Holden with a "Chevy" engine not a Pontiac? What makes a Holden with an LSX any different than a car designed as a "Pontiac" from the get go with an LSX engine? Because it was a Holden first and designed to be a Holden makes it not a Pontiac?

Please give me the definition of a Pontiac. My definition of a Pontiac would be:

- RWD

- Performance oriented powertrain

- Clean, sporty styling

- Great handling

- More upscale than a Chevy

The GTO fits all of these points and does so very well. There's nothing remotely similar to any Chevy sold here, besides the "Chevy" engine (which, BTW, is really a Corvette engine if you want to get technical -- not your everyday Chevy engine). The only thing any division of any company is is simply a marketing name. What makes a Chevy a Chevy? What makes a Buick a Buick? What makes a Lexus a Lexus? It's all relative to where the product is sold. Here in the US, a "Pontiac" is very similar to what a "Holden" is in Australia.

Riddle me this: What difference does it make if GM markets the car named "GTO" as a "Pontiac" or as a "XYZ"? It doesn't matter one bit, except for the image "Pontiac" is supposed to convey. For example, "Buick" is not trying to convey the message "Pontiac" is trying to convey, and therefore the GTO would not work as a Buick, but it works perfectly marketed as a Pontiac. A Chevy is conveying a whole different message, as are all the other brands. All of the brands are simply marketing divisions, but deciding to kill the marketing divisions named "Buick" and "Pontiac" doesn't make any sense because if you try to sell the cars that those two marketing divisions sell as "Chevys" buyers would become confused and wonder why the new "Chevrolet Lucerne" does not at all fit their idea of what a Chevy is... killing a division is dumb because GM still needs to market to everyone, and killing a brand takes away a certain group of people to market to.

[Cory Wolfe]

You are so far off base that I don't know where to begin.

The "Monaro GTO", as you so quaintly refer to it, has nothing whatsoever to do with the upcoming Camaro.

GM still sells about the same number of cars as they have for years, market share does not equal units sold.

You seem to have missed about six months' worth of positive news concerning GM.

Killing brands will only hurt GM, not help it. Those brands are, in fact, one of GM's strengths. Have they utilized them as well as they could? No, but progress is being made.

According to what definition of a Pontiac is a Holden with a "Chevy" engine not a Pontiac? What makes a Holden with an LSX any different than a car designed as a "Pontiac" from the get go with an LSX engine? Because it was a Holden first and designed to be a Holden makes it not a Pontiac?

Please give me the definition of a Pontiac. My definition of a Pontiac would be:

- RWD

- Performance oriented powertrain

- Clean, sporty styling

- Great handling

- More upscale than a Chevy

The GTO fits all of these points and does so very well. There's nothing remotely similar to any Chevy sold here, besides the "Chevy" engine (which, BTW, is really a Corvette engine if you want to get technical -- not your everyday Chevy engine). The only thing any division of any company is is simply a marketing name. What makes a Chevy a Chevy? What makes a Buick a Buick? What makes a Lexus a Lexus? It's all relative to where the product is sold. Here in the US, a "Pontiac" is very similar to what a "Holden" is in Australia.

Riddle me this: What difference does it make if GM markets the car named "GTO" as a "Pontiac" or as a "XYZ"? It doesn't matter one bit, except for the image "Pontiac" is supposed to convey. For example, "Buick" is not trying to convey the message "Pontiac" is trying to convey, and therefore the GTO would not work as a Buick, but it works perfectly marketed as a Pontiac. A Chevy is conveying a whole different message, as are all the other brands. All of the brands are simply marketing divisions, but deciding to kill the marketing divisions named "Buick" and "Pontiac" doesn't make any sense because if you try to sell the cars that those two marketing divisions sell as "Chevys" buyers would become confused and wonder why the new "Chevrolet Lucerne" does not at all fit their idea of what a Chevy is... killing a division is dumb because GM still needs to market to everyone, and killing a brand takes away a certain group of people to market to.

Ah... sanity prevails.

[bobo]

I'd like Pontiac to be all RWD (with optional AWD) as the poor man's BMW. However, aren't Pontiacs disproportionately popular in Canada, and would this march to RWD hurt the brand up there?

How about GM giving up all brands in the US except for Chevrolet and Cadillac, and maybe GMC. Market everything in Canada as a Pontiac, and everything in China as a Buick.

[VenSeattle]

GM just remodeled all of Chevrolet's trucks/SUVs (aside from the soon-to-be-disco'd TB.) Within the next three years, all of Chevrolet's cars will be replaced/remodeled starting with the 2008 Malibu this fall (followed by everything else: RWD Impala replacement, Camaro, Cobalt replacement, and Aveo replacement.) Chevrolet may also receive a family of all new sub-compacts.

Chevrolet is not being ignored nor is it suffering in any way because GM is focused elsewhere.

Neither is Cadillac for that matter... Cadillac can not produce a Sixteen or even an S-Class competitor until it masters the mid-luxury segment that the current STS failed to achieve. The 2008 CTS will accomplish this. Suitable BLS & DTS replacements will round out Cadillac’s portfolio right on schedule.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Interesting debate here. Where have I seen this before? I was reading all the posts, and it all sounds like the same stuff the Oldsmobile people went through. I just sit back and watch and read. I have been where others are going. People are getting all fired up about their brands.

I can tell you this from experience.. When it all shakes out in the end, there will be fewer cars at GM and someones brand may not be here. The dealers will all be upset again, and the fighting will continue.

I have to give it to you, you are all very passionate about this.

While you gentlemen continue to discuss, I will continue to watch and sing the Oldsmobile song and watch videos on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvwydE_FXHI

Edited August 14, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Oracle of Delphi]

Interesting debate here. Where have I seen this before? I was reading all the posts, and it all sounds like the same stuff the Oldsmobile people went through. I just sit back and watch and read. I have been where others are going. People are getting all fired up about their brands.

I can tell you this from experience.. When it all shakes out in the end, there will be fewer cars at GM and someones brand may not be here. The dealers will all be upset again, and the fighting will continue.

I have to give it to you, you are all very passionate about this.

While you gentlemen continue to discuss, I will continue to watch and sing the Oldsmobile song and watch videos on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvwydE_FXHI

I've bought popcorn, so we have something to eat, as we watch the coming drama unfold. :AH-HA_wink:

[z28luvr01]

Sales would not be as great as in the past; but remember, Pontiac will be a niche brand. The basic engineering of the platforms of these vehicles will be shared with other brands worldwide to offset costs. I still believe Pontiac has a future if the plan is executed correctly.

I'm in total agreement with you, except on the alphanumerics part. The G# names need to go, completely and totally. They have a desirable, competent, good selling car that will carry the name Solstice for the forseeable future, so Pontiac will never be able to fully adopt a cohesive alphanumeric scheme. They should just cut their losses and go back to names.

[Camino LS6]

Interesting debate here. Where have I seen this before? I was reading all the posts, and it all sounds like the same stuff the Oldsmobile people went through. I just sit back and watch and read. I have been where others are going. People are getting all fired up about their brands.

I can tell you this from experience.. When it all shakes out in the end, there will be fewer cars at GM and someones brand may not be here. The dealers will all be upset again, and the fighting will continue.

I have to give it to you, you are all very passionate about this.

While you gentlemen continue to discuss, I will continue to watch and sing the Oldsmobile song and watch videos on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvwydE_FXHI

This situation is quite different from the Olds situation.

The grouping of Buick, Pontiac, and GMC is an alternative to killing brands. GM has found a better way to deal with the situation than they did for Olds. Everyone needs to wrap their heads around the reality of B-P-G and think of the three as one. That's where the answer lies.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I've bought popcorn, so we have something to eat, as we watch the coming drama unfold. :AH-HA_wink:

That is funny!! I have been where they are right now. I remember on so many GM boards when it was happening to Oldsmobile, I was told to shut up, get over it and on and on. Now it is happening to other divisions under attack, things seem different when it is happening to the other divisions. Our words always come back to haunt us in some form or fashion. All I can tell the people who are fans of Pontiac, SAAB, and Buick is expect the unexpected. Believe none of what you hear. I do feel for you all. You will go through a period of sadness afterwards too. You will go through anger and denial too. You will come to terms with what happens. I will tell you this too, just like the Oldsmobile Bravada became a Buick and a SAAB is the same way other products can change divisions. The Bonneville GXP was born out of Auroras demise. It got a V8, and the Aurora seats to fill in that segment. That was one of the reasons I considered the Bonneville GXP until I realized what is under the hood. The Bonneville SLE would be the way to go.

I'm in total agreement with you, except on the alphanumerics part. The G# names need to go, completely and totally. They have a desirable, competent, good selling car that will carry the name Solstice for the forseeable future, so Pontiac will never be able to fully adopt a cohesive alphanumeric scheme. They should just cut their losses and go back to names.

I do agree with you. They had some great names they could use. GM is starting to realize that whole name changing business did not work. It sure did not work for Oldsmobile. Now, critics and others are seeing it has not worked for Buick. Maybe GM is seeing it too. It was not the names, but rather the product.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

This situation is quite different from the Olds situation.

The grouping of Buick, Pontiac, and GMC is an alternative to killing brands. GM has found a better way to deal with the situation than they did for Olds. Everyone needs to wrap their heads around the reality of B-P-G and think of the three as one. That's where the answer lies.

I saw them as one before all of this happened. It is not so different because a division is a division to GM. Reality is reality. Too much of what is going on is too similar. They are just covering their bases this time. They are giving the weak divisions at GM a fair shot to turn things around. They deserve that chance.

[Northstar]

Notice that now that Olds is gone, GM is moving Saturn into that market to fill the hole left. Now Saturn is going to be marketed as the import fighter because GM doesn't have anything else to fill that hole. Killing Pontiac would cause a similar problem, because there would be no performance brand. Where is the cheap Alpha car going to come from? Saturn? Isn't that going to cause confusion with the next Aura, then? If it came from Buick, I suppose it might be a bit smaller than the LaCrosse and make sense, but that's not really Buick's image/target image, plus how much cheaper would it be than the Cadillac Alpha?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Notice that now that Olds is gone, GM is moving Saturn into that market to fill the hole left. Now Saturn is going to be marketed as the import fighter because GM doesn't have anything else to fill that hole. Killing Pontiac would cause a similar problem, because there would be no performance brand. Where is the cheap Alpha car going to come from? Saturn? Isn't that going to cause confusion with the next Aura, then? If it came from Buick, I suppose it might be a bit smaller than the LaCrosse and make sense, but that's not really Buick's image/target image, plus how much cheaper would it be than the Cadillac Alpha?

But Buick could take that image on too, it has in the past remember the Grand National? Buick could easily wear two hats. Not an issue.

[CaddyXLR-V]

But Buick could take that image on too, it has in the past remember the Grand National? Buick could easily wear two hats. Not an issue.

Not for me. I won't buy a Buick.

[buyacargetacheck]

Chevrolet is not gaining market share, increasing sales or capturing conquest sales from Toyota or Honda. This is a problem. And part of the reason, I believe, is that GM is distracted by two other brands that are essentially unrecoverable. Sorry, but as good as the Malibu is going to be, it's not enough of an improvement to catch the attention of Camcorda buyers (but it looks like a great start). The Camaro is 2009. The Impala 2010. The Cobalt replacement, if on Delta, will not match the refinement or mpg of Corolla. The Aveo's best quality is its affordability - the "new" one is a reskin.

Meanwhile, GM is investing dollars at Pontiac and Buick that could be used for shoring up Chevy. I live in LA. People here love the Corvette and the big Chevy trucks. They're everywhere. However, almost no one here seriously thinks of Pontiac or Buick. This is GM's (and every other major carmaker's) biggest market. If these brands can't make it here they won't make it period. Sorry. BTW, Lutz's contention that the GTO did well in LA is interesting. Occasionally, you'll see one, but they're actually a bit of a rarity.

The Solstice would do much better at Chevrolet. The Impala SS will handily outsell the G8 and look better doing it. A Zeta Caprice would sell better than the Zeta Lucerne. A EpII BLS aimed at the ES350 would do better than a EpII Regal (more prestige better image). Keep GMC I guess but GM is wasting its time and money on the other two. The effect of adding all these vehicles to Chevy would be to increase Chevy's sales AND AS IMPORTANTLY push the Chevrolet name out into the sea of crowded media messages just that much more.

GM just remodeled all of Chevrolet's trucks/SUVs (aside from the soon-to-be-disco'd TB.) Within the next three years, all of Chevrolet's cars will be replaced/remodeled starting with the 2008 Malibu this fall (followed by everything else: RWD Impala replacement, Camaro, Cobalt replacement, and Aveo replacement.) Chevrolet may also receive a family of all new sub-compacts.

Chevrolet is not being ignored nor is it suffering in any way because GM is focused elsewhere.

Neither is Cadillac for that matter... Cadillac can not produce a Sixteen or even an S-Class competitor until it masters the mid-luxury segment that the current STS failed to achieve. The 2008 CTS will accomplish this. Suitable BLS & DTS replacements will round out Cadillac’s portfolio right on schedule.

[buyacargetacheck]

It's called the SS. You can find them at your Chevrolet dealer and muscle car auctions across the US.

Killing Pontiac would cause a similar problem, because there would be no performance brand.

[buyacargetacheck]

No, the grouping of BPG is called a HEDGE. GM is hedging its bet that if Buick and Pontiac don't revive it'll be able to ax the brands with less pain and fewer lawsuits because the dealers will still have GMC (the sales winner anyway).

BTW, if you have to remind GM enthusiast forum board members to "wrap their heads around the reality of B-P-G and think of the three as one" then just think how much of a struggle GM has to remind (educate?) an indifferent car-buying public. Outside of here nobody cares.

This situation is quite different from the Olds situation.

The grouping of Buick, Pontiac, and GMC is an alternative to killing brands. GM has found a better way to deal with the situation than they did for Olds. Everyone needs to wrap their heads around the reality of B-P-G and think of the three as one. That's where the answer lies.

[z28luvr01]

No, the grouping of BPG is called a HEDGE. GM is hedging its bet that if Buick and Pontiac don't revive it'll be able to ax the brands with less pain and fewer lawsuits because the dealers will still have GMC (the sales winner anyway).

BTW, if you have to remind GM enthusiast forum board members to "wrap their heads around the reality of B-P-G and think of the three as one" then just think how much of a struggle GM has to remind (educate?) an indifferent car-buying public. Outside of here nobody cares.

The B-P-G consolidation will only fail if GM does not do it properly. If done the right way, GM will effectively shed two full-line brands and the associated cost with developing "differentiated" cars for them, yet still keep the marketing power of all the names involved. Each brand involved will be allowed to go back to their roots and offer tightly focused, competent product instead of being forced to sell watered down vehicles to appeal to the select few that actually want a Pontiac SUV or a Buick minivan. The fruits of the consoldaion is not close to appearing but we will start to see it as the old models hit the end of their lifecycle and either die, are redesigned, or reassigned to another brand in the channel. One thing that could unravel the whole thing: dealers. GM had better stick with its plan rather than back off on it to appease dealers.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Here is another thought. Let's say GM Pulls the plug on both Buick and Pontiac, or Pontiac alone. :AH-HA_wink: And merges GMC & Saturn together. That would automatically increase Saturn dealership presence by 2/3 or more and also give Saturn access to a truck brand. Then GMC/Saturn could rebadge the Outlook or Acadia whichever it decided to keep and give the version they don't keep to another division that doesn't have one. That would solve so many issues now wouldn't it? It would kill off the weak brands and strengthen Saturn & GMC pressence thoughout North America.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Northstar]

It's called the SS. You can find them at your Chevrolet dealer and muscle car auctions across the US.

Let's see...

Impala SS... W-Body = no performance aspirations

Monte SS... see above

TB SS... fast, yes, but it's a heavy SUV

Cobalt SS... the only one that really is very performance oriented, but it's a small, cheap car. Nothing at all like a muscle car.

Silverado SS... a truck, not a muscle car

Did I miss anything?

None of the current SSs are like a GTO, Alpha car, or G8. The next Impala SS and Camaro SS would be similar, but they're still downmarket, IMO. Plus, there are people who would like a vehicle that isn't top-of-the-line that still handles great and performs well. The Impala isn't going to be sport-tuned because it needs to appeal to a wide audience in non-SS form, while the G8 can be sport-tuned in all models.

Here is another thought. Let's say GM Pulls the plug on both Buick and Pontiac, or Pontiac alone. :AH-HA_wink: And merges GMC & Saturn together. That would automatically increase Saturn dealership presence by 2/3 or more and also give Saturn access to a truck brand. Then GMC/Saturn could rebadge the Outlook or Acadia whichever it decided to keep and give the version they don't keep to another division that doesn't have one. That would solve so many issues now wouldn't it? It would kill off the weak brands and strengthen Saturn & GMC pressence thoughout North America.

There would be no other division that didn't have a Lambda besides Cadillac. That is a very risky proposition seeing as how the new Saturns aren't selling very well.

[ZL-1]

Here is another thought. Let's say GM Pulls the plug on both Buick and Pontiac, or Pontiac alone. :AH-HA_wink: And merges GMC & Saturn together. That would automatically increase Saturn dealership presence by 2/3 or more and also give Saturn access to a truck brand. Then GMC/Saturn could rebadge the Outlook or Acadia whichever it decided to keep and give the version they don't keep to another division that doesn't have one. That would solve so many issues now wouldn't it? It would kill off the weak brands and strengthen Saturn & GMC pressence thoughout North America.

In that scenario you presented, would Buick become to the Chinese market what Holden-minus-RWD is in Australia? Just a badge/brand that sells global vehicles under the Buick name? Or would it be killed everywhere?

EDIT - By 'killed' I mean 'ticked-tocked'

Edited August 14, 2007 by ZL-1

[buyacargetacheck]

Pushing Saturn further upscale and making that image stick is even more of a challenge than PBG. They have good cars and, I've heard, a good dealer experience (gouging on the Sky excepted). But there's nothing in that showroom, again, that couldn't be done as a Chevrolet. To me, the test of how well the upscaling of the positioning is how your neighbor/friend would view your purchase compared to a Toyota equivalent. If you are perceived as smarter and more successful because you bought a Saturn Aura versus a Toyota Camry, for example, then GM's strategy is working. Here in LA that's not yet the case. This is what GM needs to be working on with Chevrolet instead of futzing around with Saturn, Buick, etc.

Badging Opels as Saturns and then marketing them as an upscale alternative a la the Oldsmobile of old is another cynical hedge. GM has to give these Saturn dealers something to sell and this was the best plan they could come up with. I don't think it'll round out like they say.

Here is another thought. Let's say GM Pulls the plug on both Buick and Pontiac, or Pontiac alone. :AH-HA_wink: And merges GMC & Saturn together. That would automatically increase Saturn dealership presence by 2/3 or more and also give Saturn access to a truck brand. Then GMC/Saturn could rebadge the Outlook or Acadia whichever it decided to keep and give the version they don't keep to another division that doesn't have one. That would solve so many issues now wouldn't it? It would kill off the weak brands and strengthen Saturn & GMC pressence thoughout North America.

[Oracle of Delphi]

There would be no other division that didn't have a Lambda besides Cadillac. That is a very risky proposition seeing as how the new Saturns aren't selling very well.

No they could also give the Lambda to Saab as a 9-7 replacement. The reason Saturn isn't selling well is that their current dealer network is too small, this solution would solve that issue.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Oracle of Delphi]

In that scenario you presented, would Buick become to the Chinese market what Holden-minus-RWD is in Australia? Just a badge/brand that sells global vehicles under the Buick name? Or would it be killed everywhere?

EDIT - By 'killed' I mean 'ticked-tocked'

Well what about this, Holden and GMDAT are merged into one company that supplies vehicles to Africa/Asia/Australia/Mid-East and design cars for those markets. (rich Arabs & Chinese) and also emerging countries like India, Thailand, etc, with smaller Daewoo cars all badged to what their markets desire.

[buyacargetacheck]

The current lineup isn't the question. What we're talking about here what GM does in the future. Whatever GM plans to give Pontiac in the future (including the G8) could find a comfortable place at Chevrolet. Of course, you might have to give up your red guages and split grill. I doubt many would cry over that.

Does anyone really doubt that the next Impala SS will be just as much of a performer as the G8 and sell at much higher volumes??? I'm sure it'll be "sport-tuned" very well. And Chevy could easily stratify the lineup to please buyers looking for that size car with LS, LT and LTZ trims. Add in a long-wheelbase Caprice instead of a Park Avenue and you've got even more volume and profit rolling in.

Let's see...

Impala SS... W-Body = no performance aspirations

Monte SS... see above

TB SS... fast, yes, but it's a heavy SUV

Cobalt SS... the only one that really is very performance oriented, but it's a small, cheap car. Nothing at all like a muscle car.

Silverado SS... a truck, not a muscle car

Did I miss anything?

None of the current SSs are like a GTO, Alpha car, or G8. The next Impala SS and Camaro SS would be similar, but they're still downmarket, IMO. Plus, there are people who would like a vehicle that isn't top-of-the-line that still handles great and performs well. The Impala isn't going to be sport-tuned because it needs to appeal to a wide audience in non-SS form, while the G8 can be sport-tuned in all models.

There would be no other division that didn't have a Lambda besides Cadillac. That is a very risky proposition seeing as how the new Saturns aren't selling very well.

[buyacargetacheck]

The Enclave should be a Cadillac and the Outlook should have gone to Chevrolet from the gitgo. What are they waiting for?

There would be no other division that didn't have a Lambda besides Cadillac. That is a very risky proposition seeing as how the new Saturns aren't selling very well.

[z28luvr01]

The current lineup isn't the question. What we're talking about here what GM does in the future. Whatever GM plans to give Pontiac in the future (including the G8) could find a comfortable place at Chevrolet. Of course, you might have to give up your red guages and split grill. I doubt many would cry over that.

Does anyone really doubt that the next Impala SS will be just as much of a performer as the G8 and sell at much higher volumes??? I'm sure it'll be "sport-tuned" very well. And Chevy could easily stratify the lineup to please buyers looking for that size car with LS, LT and LTZ trims. Add in a long-wheelbase Caprice instead of a Park Avenue and you've got even more volume and profit rolling in.

You're making a big, and dangerous, assumption: that GM can force people into an Impala because there isn't a G8 or Park Avenue available for them to buy. The same assumption was made when GM killed Olds. We all know how that turned out, right? The fact is, that no matter what you do, some people will just never buy a Chevy. In the GM hierarchy Chevy has always been the volume, mainstream division. Anyone looking for "more" from an image standpoint (yet can't afford a Caddy) won't give an Impala a second glance. And I'm saying all this as a Chevy die-hard. This is where Buick and Pontiac come in.

[ZL-1]

Well what about this, Holden and GMDAT are merged into one company that supplies vehicles to Africa/Asia/Australia/Mid-East and design cars for those markets. (rich Arabs & Chinese) and also emerging countries like India, Thailand, etc, with smaller Daewoo cars all badged to what their markets desire.

I actually thought about an alternative along those lines before, but I fear that the "and design cars for those markets" bit might result in a multiplication of design efforts (and cost). Or am I interpreting you wrong?

Btw, is Holden a wholly owned subsidiary or are there minority shareholders?

Edited August 14, 2007 by ZL-1

[Northstar]

No they could also give the Lambda to Saab as a 9-7 replacement. The reason Saturn isn't selling well is that their current dealer network is to small, this solution would solve that issue.

A Lambda doesn't really fit Saab, IMO, though neither does the 9-7. Saab doesn't need an SUV any bigger than the 9-4x.

Saturn still isn't selling well on a sales-per-dealership basis. Too many dealerships is not necessarily a good thing, either. Pontiac and Buick stores are closing because there are too many of them. There are lots of brands that sell better than Saturn on a per-dealership basis. Saturn should at least be able to match Lexus, meaning the Aura should be selling a lot more than 4k/month. Do you happen to have a breakdown of the number of dealerships per brand?