The Future of Pontiac - Autoweek

[gm4life]

I sure don't... It is as close to a Bonneville as I can get! If you haven't noticed I like them. **Have owned 3 and currently own a 2005 SLE**

[Oracle of Delphi]

So you DO NOT mind another Holden in US??

My opinion is I will be seeing another one of these soon enough:

"Funny, I saw an internal interview with him where he told all of GM, that the GTO was the wrong car, at the wrong time, and it was in his opinion a marketing disaster and by his account a flop!"

It was bad enough watching Lutz eat crow the 1st time, do I have to suffer through it again?

Edited August 5, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[ocnblu]

The one thing wrong with the G8 is the bland styling... which is a major factor, imo, when you are Pontiac. Sedan bodystyle, a platform designed with North American safety standards in mind and 6 cylinder availability are all major plusses. I think they should put DI onto the 3.6 as soon as possible in the G8. I see the 3.6L car selling well, hopefully, and look forward to an American-designed exterior two years after intro... the sooner the better.

[ZL-1]

The one thing wrong with the G8 is the bland styling... which is a major factor, imo, when you are Pontiac. Sedan bodystyle, a platform designed with North American safety standards in mind and 6 cylinder availability are all major plusses. I think they should put DI onto the 3.6 as soon as possible in the G8. I see the 3.6L car selling well, hopefully, and look forward to an American-designed exterior two years after intro... the sooner the better.

That's a real issue issue with having an Australian-designed car: they prefer conservative designs down there.

Agreed with the DI thing, and it should be adopted across the board ASAP (export 2.8L Cadillac CTS for example). Will the G8 have any manual variants? Even if they reverse it and make it the extra-cost option, I think it would be nice for the 'excitement' brand to offer that.

Edited August 5, 2007 by ZL-1

[hyperv6]

The one thing wrong with the G8 is the bland styling... which is a major factor, imo, when you are Pontiac. Sedan bodystyle, a platform designed with North American safety standards in mind and 6 cylinder availability are all major plusses. I think they should put DI onto the 3.6 as soon as possible in the G8. I see the 3.6L car selling well, hopefully, and look forward to an American-designed exterior two years after intro... the sooner the better.

All I see here is people complaining that the G8 is too little and the G6 GXP is too much. In todays market conservitive will always win and dramatic will always be hit or miss. As it stands now Pontiac can't win with the people here so I just hope the conservitive cars win with the general public who at this point really don't care for what Pontiac has.

You can sell a conservitive car to about anyone vs a polarizing one only to those who precive it as good. If a Aztec as more like a Camry it would have faired much better with a wider market of potential buyers.

The G8 has to sell to more than just Pontiac fans.

As for the 3.6 DI it is going to be a major player. The hold on the Zeta and the 35 MPH stir in GC has put the spot light on the V6 in the Zeta.

Lets face it in the general public most people do not need or want more than 300 HP. A 304-320 HP V6 would give performance and milage that would suit the normal daily driver. I see the 3.6 DI and its variants as the SBC of the future. Com on folks a V6 Camaro with 320 HP is where the 4th Gen SS left off. I think we could all live with that and 30 plus MPG highway for driving to work.

As for the GTO the major differance with the G8 and GTO is

The price will be right and not jacked up

It's styling is not offensive and is conteporary, Keeping in mind the GT is the basic car and not the GXP that will have more aggresive looks is to come later.

The styling will likely change in a couple years if and when it moves to the Oshawa plant.

It is not competeing against a new Mustang that was prices well below the marked up GTO.

And the biggest thing "IT'S A FOUR DOOR SEDAN"!!!!! Other than a Cobalt or Mustang coupes are a hard sell. With so many new coupes coming including Hyundia it will be intersting who survives.

The whole key to the Camaro is it will shame many things with the Impala/Caprice. If not for that car Chevy may have not approved the Camaro.

Like em or hate em Sedans make the market go around. The enthusiast say they want coupes but we are in the minority on this one. Standard trannys are they same problem with only 3-4% if buyers wanting them.

If Pontiac does a coupe I just hope it has a V8 and a 300+ HP V6. As for the name dump the GTO and Firbird and go with a non numeric name.

Note the V6 is important enough to the Camaro there will be two different ones offered. GM knows and already has it's bases covered. I just see Ford is way behind on there V6 right now. Not anly are they under powered but they are having problems on the Cam escentric where you can really mess up the engine if it breaks.

Edited August 5, 2007 by hyperv6

[Satty]

That's a real issue issue with having an Australian-designed car: they prefer conservative designs down there.

Umm...the best selling car in the U.S. is the Toyota Camry, next is the Honda Accord or Toyota Corolla, so yeah, I'd say Americans are, as a whole, the same way. That said, Pontiac buyers aren't the average American, they're a niche and the G8 doesn't fit all of what that niche wants.

[Robert Hall]

I don't see anything wrong with the G8's styling...it's certainly a huge improvement over the ugly Grand Prix...is that it is not gaudy enough to be badged a Pontiac?

Edited August 5, 2007 by moltar

[ZL-1]

Umm...the best selling car in the U.S. is the Toyota Camry, next is the Honda Accord or Toyota Corolla, so yeah, I'd say Americans are, as a whole, the same way. That said, Pontiac buyers aren't the average American, they're a niche and the G8 doesn't fit all of what that niche wants.

As you said, Pontiac's target demographic isn't the Camry/Accord/Malibu crowd.

I think the G8's target demographic may not want a conservatively styled car in the first place (I'd definitely go for one if I was in the US market and looking for a sporty 4-door), but I'm still optimistic Pontiac will meet its sales goals. IMO Pontiac's marketing effort with regards to the G8 should be in promoting performance over looks/styling, and that would be helped by offering 6-sp manual models with both engines, like what the Commodore SV6 and SS offer in AUS. I don't know if those variants will be offered: the Pontiac G8 site only refers to a standard 6-sp automatic with the V8...

@ Moltar - much better than the Grand Prix, IMO. And while I have my doubts as to there being a matching of styling with the target demographic's tastes, I also have great doubts a Solstice-inspired sedan (the only interesting design theme in pontiac's current lineup) would turn out to be a good looking car...

Edited August 5, 2007 by ZL-1

[hyperv6]

As you said, Pontiac's target demographic isn't the Camry/Accord/Malibu crowd.

I think the G8's target demographic may not want a conservatively styled car in the first place (I'd definitely go for one if I was in the US market and looking for a sporty 4-door), but I'm still optimistic Pontiac will meet its sales goals. IMO Pontiac's marketing effort with regards to the G8 should be in promoting performance over looks/styling, and that would be helped by offering 6-sp manual models with both engines, like what the Commodore SV6 and SS offer in AUS. I don't know if those variants will be offered: the Pontiac G8 site only refers to a standard 6-sp automatic with the V8...

@ Moltar - much better than the Grand Prix, IMO. And while I have my doubts as to there being a matching of styling with the target demographic's tastes, I also have great doubts a Solstice-inspired sedan (the only interesting design theme in pontiac's current lineup) would turn out to be a good looking car...

Sad to say many of the Pontiac demographic is now part of the Camry/Accord/Malibu crowd as they sure ar not buying Pontiac's.

Even BMW is not nor has ever been very radical of a car outside a M1 Etc.

I think many here underestimate the general public and thing Pontiac has to be a little over the top in styling. I think if it is priced well, tateful, great quality and sporty people will respond.

We need to sell this to more than what few Pontiac people are left we need to sell this to Mazda, Honda/Acura, Audi, Low end BMW and the like buyers. If we rely on only Pontiac Fans you can kiss Pontiac bye bye.

We need conquest sales as we don't have enough Pontiac buyers as it is.

If the G8 does as well as the GTO did in S Cali it shoulf be fine. The two extra doors will do more than enough to attract more buyers as the GTO is and never was a car for everyone in this day of the sedan.

[smk4565]

The G8 does look really bland. It looks more like a land barge than a sports car. Not so hot gas mileage is going to work against it also. The interior seems plain or basic, it isn't very inviting, another downside to having a rebadged Holden. Should be interesting to see how it does.

[hyperv6]

The G8 does look really bland. It looks more like a land barge than a sports car. Not so hot gas mileage is going to work against it also. The interior seems plain or basic, it isn't very inviting, another downside to having a rebadged Holden. Should be interesting to see how it does.

Bland I will accept but Land Barge is a little over doing it. For gods sake it is near similar in size to the GP.

As for gas milage it is as good or better than the RWD Chryslers and Dodges. The V6 should do very well.

I willing to bet the V8 is not going to do much worse than my 3800SC.

As for the interior I would say you have not visited the inside of a recent Pontiac. The only highlights have been the Holden interior's. My GP is down right crap. I would have paid extra to get the G8 interior in my GP. My SSEI had much better leather but it was silly with all the bottons. This was a big turn off for many. The German's have offered Holden like interiors for years and no one complains and most desire them.

Folks it is time to look around and see what real buyers are buying. And what Pontiac is and has offered of late most are not buying.

[balthazar]

>>"If we rely on only Pontiac Fans you can kiss Pontiac bye bye. "<<

You keep repeating this over & over & over like it's a Great Discovery.

I think you are missing out on the fact that a LOT of Pontiac fans are not currently buying Pontiacs because there is either not a compelling-enough vehicle, or no vehicle at all in a given segment (Solstice & GTO excepted). In other words, there are far more Pontiac fans out there than recent sales volume would indicate, as opposed to every non-Pontiac buyer being a hardcore Brand X loyalist and a major obstacle to win over.

[ocnblu]

I am not asking for:

ground effects

gaudy spoilers

cladding

700 dash vents (but they should be round)

screaming chicken hood decals

What I do want:

coke bottle sides

smooth contours (G8 is like a Lego car)

tasteful hood scoops (on GXP, functional)

quad exhaust tips

a "prow" front end

teardrop taillamps like Solstice/G6 coupe

fender scallop like Solstice

a new, but recognizable Pontiac face with full-width split grille

To me, these are styling traits that are attractive enough to win new customers and please loyalists... at the same time. The G8 has ZERO Pontiac DNA, a bad thing for a so-called flagship. To me, a flagship should influence the styling direction for the brand from the top down. Instead, I look to the Solstice as the purest, genuine Pontiac in years. The G8 is outside the design language... it doesn't fit.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Sad to say many of the Pontiac demographic is now part of the Camry/Accord/Malibu crowd as they sure ar not buying Pontiac's.

Even BMW is not nor has ever been very radical of a car outside a M1 Etc.

I think many here underestimate the general public and thing Pontiac has to be a little over the top in styling. I think if it is priced well, tateful, great quality and sporty people will respond.

We need to sell this to more than what few Pontiac people are left we need to sell this to Mazda, Honda/Acura, Audi, Low end BMW and the like buyers. If we rely on only Pontiac Fans you can kiss Pontiac bye bye.

We need conquest sales as we don't have enough Pontiac buyers as it is.

If the G8 does as well as the GTO did in S Cali it shoulf be fine. The two extra doors will do more than enough to attract more buyers as the GTO is and never was a car for everyone in this day of the sedan.

Personally, I'd rather kiss Pontiac goodbye than go with a Holden pretender.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

I think some of you folks are completely out of your minds.

[Lamar]

To me, these are styling traits that are attractive enough to win new customers and please loyalists... at the same time. The G8 has ZERO Pontiac DNA, a bad thing for a so-called flagship. To me, a flagship should influence the styling direction for the brand from the top down. Instead, I look to the Solstice as the purest, genuine Pontiac in years. The G8 is outside the design language... it doesn't fit.

Although I like the G8, I have to agree with you.

[balthazar]

>>"To me, a flagship should influence the styling direction for the brand from the top down. Instead, I look to the Solstice as the purest, genuine Pontiac in years. The G8 is outside the design language... it doesn't fit. "<<

100% truth.

[Camino LS6]

I'm not so sure.

Don't get me wrong here, I love the Solstice.

But something tells me that its soft curves are becoming dated.

At any rate, I'm thinking that Pontiac doesn't really have much of a current design language to begin with.

Other than the split grilles, the current crop vary wildly in style.

The G8 isn't perfect, but it is an attractive, muscular, and yes aggressive design. I'm fine with it as a Pontiac, although I'd like to do an edit or two on the design.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

I'm confused...if G6 is going to be based on the Alpha architecture...and the G8 is a mid-size car as it is now, then how is the next G6, if placed on Alpha going to be id-size. I see it as a compact car, which I'm sure there may be a small market for RWD compacts that are less expensive than the BMW 3-Series, Lexus IS, etc. near-luxury cars, but will there be size overlap here or is it really going to be a compact? Sounds like a modern Ventura, minus the badge engineering (in most cases) and hopefully higher sales.

[Sixty8panther]

I LOVE the G8, it's gorgeous but O.B. does speak the truth.

[hyperv6]

>>"If we rely on only Pontiac Fans you can kiss Pontiac bye bye. "<<

You keep repeating this over & over & over like it's a Great Discovery.

I think you are missing out on the fact that a LOT of Pontiac fans are not currently buying Pontiacs because there is either not a compelling-enough vehicle, or no vehicle at all in a given segment (Solstice & GTO excepted). In other words, there are far more Pontiac fans out there than recent sales volume would indicate, as opposed to every non-Pontiac buyer being a hardcore Brand X loyalist and a major obstacle to win over.

On the contrary there may fewer Pontiac fans than ever. Pontiac started to lose many in 1979 with the last V8. then they killed of many more fans with a Le Mans/ Bonneville. Add to that a large selection of FWD and too few RWD cars.

At this point it can be said Pontiac is lost a Generation. There are many who have been born in the 70's and later that have no recall or love for the old Pontiac that some want to reclaim. We also now have too many that have not seen a Pontiac that they would want for near 28 years that do remember the better days.

While the Solstice is a great car it is not in the cards or the budget to make a whole car line from the ground up. I am sure Pontiac and GM would love to do more but there are bigger fish to fry while saving GM. Pontiac is in limp mode to keep it viable till it is in the cards and budget to fit it.

Even the Pontiac Oakland club is not overloaded with members anymore many are worried for the lack of new members.

If all you think it will take to save Pontiac is a Coke bottle shape and a Retro grill we would be lucky if it was that easy.

The bottom line is too few people care about Pontiac and Pontiac's past today. It will take a new look and new buyers to make it grow.

If you hold onto the past too much you end up like Lincoln.

[Carguy]

Do a small if not RWD then standard AWD G4 sports sedan with opt Turbo I4 power. Combine the G5 and G6 into one ALPHA RWD I4-V6 midsize sedan model named G6 positioned below the G8. Then rename the Solstice R4 as a roadster and C4 as a coupe. Then bring back the Firebird model to replace the G6 coupe on ALPHA as a slitely retro named RWD GTA with base I4 opt V6/V8 power. Then build a longer then Camaro GTO coupe on RWD ZETA as the 500HP top model!!

Edited August 6, 2007 by Carguy

[ocnblu]

What I'm saying, hyper, is that styling cues like I outlined above are inherently attractive, sensuous and exciting. People who have been Pontiac fans will feel at home for the first time in years, and new, young buyers will look twice, and, dare I say, be drawn to Pontiac showrooms. The trick is to make people notice your wares... with arresting styling, something the Solstice has done successfully. The problem is, people with more practical needs are then left to look for an actual purchase elsewhere, because nothing else in the current lineup, or the coming G8, has that Solstice magic. It's like the car stands alone in its romantic, inviting style in a Pontiac showroom. And that's a damned shame.

[Carguy]

I am not asking for:

ground effects

gaudy spoilers

cladding

700 dash vents (but they should be round)

screaming chicken hood decals

What I do want:

coke bottle sides

smooth contours (G8 is like a Lego car)

tasteful hood scoops (on GXP, functional)

quad exhaust tips

a "prow" front end

teardrop taillamps like Solstice/G6 coupe

fender scallop like Solstice

a new, but recognizable Pontiac face with full-width split grille

To me, these are styling traits that are attractive enough to win new customers and please loyalists... at the same time. The G8 has ZERO Pontiac DNA, a bad thing for a so-called flagship. To me, a flagship should influence the styling direction for the brand from the top down. Instead, I look to the Solstice as the purest, genuine Pontiac in years. The G8 is outside the design language... it doesn't fit.

Eventhough I would buy a G8 if I could and LOVE IT I also agree with ocnblu here! Dramatic styling has been lost and replaced with COOKIE CUTTER WEDGE SHAPED LOOKS and unique to brand styling has been lost EVEN MORE these days. His idea for unique PONTIAC styling as listed above "coke bottle sids/full width split grille" ect is GREAT!!

[hyperv6]

What I'm saying, hyper, is that styling cues like I outlined above are inherently attractive, sensuous and exciting. People who have been Pontiac fans will feel at home for the first time in years, and new, young buyers will look twice, and, dare I say, be drawn to Pontiac showrooms. The trick is to make people notice your wares... with arresting styling, something the Solstice has done successfully. The problem is, people with more practical needs are then left to look for an actual purchase elsewhere, because nothing else in the current lineup, or the coming G8, has that Solstice magic. It's like the car stands alone in its romantic, inviting style in a Pontiac showroom. And that's a damned shame.

I understand and agree this is what would be great. I would love to see things happen as you discribe but in todays market It happening.

I just do not see what Pontiac people want as the same as most of the maket wants anymore and there are too few true Pontiac fans to support it.

It is sad to say that most of the people in todays Auto market just want clean tasteful cars with only a little flair. Look at most of your top sellers and most are conservitive clones. Also look at the Asian luxury cars as most have a lot of BMW or Benz in them. Neither are dramatic but that is what the public wants.

GM has tried to make some cars that stand out and each time they have been rejected or not as popular as one would expect. Avalanche vs Tahoe which one sold better here. Even with the better versitily the Tahoe won.

The 4th Gen TA was awsome but never a big seller vs the Mustang, the GXP Bonnie was great looking to me but not to most others and few bought it.

Today Cadillac has taken the bold step to try to lead in design. for the most part it has helped them from where they were but it is still polarizing to many. I hope with the cleaner new CTS this will lead many more back to Caddy.

You can sell a conservtive good quality car to about anyone but when styling take a leading edge it becomes more polarizing and is a love it or hate it thing. A company can't afford a polarizing design when they every sale they can get. They can do this later when taking a chance is not as risky for the future of the division.

I am not a BMW fan but feel Pontiac needs to reivent itself in a conseritive performance image. They could still sneek in a more radical car here and their but the bread and butter cars need to reflect what the market as a whole wants and not just Pontiac fans. We here too often think as enthusiast and fail to remember that we are in the minority in the market.

I am a long time Pontiac fan and today I feel so alone as few people I know like or care for anything Pontiac has or has had for a long time. Even most would chose a Sky over the Solstice. The real sad part is I work in the performance aftermaket and if people there really don't car about Pontiac who will.

Even more sad is the fact most Pontiac people can agree anymore since Pontiac has lost direction.

Even a dramatic car like the Aurora was too little to late to help Olds with their base fans alone. Olds lost their base and I fear the same is true with Pontiac. If they are to survive they need to play to the majority as the Pontiac fans are all too few anymore.

On the other hand the stylish conservitive Le Sabre helped save Buick. This is the same car Hyundia and toyot copied for some of their best selling cars.

[Camino LS6]

Wow Hyper, I just don't see things that way where Pontiac is concerned.

No matter what else it may be, Pontiac needs to be BOLD

Otherwise it would be a pointless brand.

[z28luvr01]

I think, at this point in the auto industry, if you err on the side of conservative to appeal to the Camcordtima-buying masses, you're setting yourself up for a failure. Why buy something that looks like a Camry if you can just buy a Camry and be done with it? Besides, GM has that market segment covered with the Malibu and Aura. Pontiac needs freedom from that to be viable. With that said, I love the G8, find its styling not bland but appealing, and can't wait to see one in person and possibly put money down on one. They just better have the stick ready by the time I'm ready.

[Camino LS6]

[Oracle of Delphi]

I think, at this point in the auto industry, if you err on the side of conservative to appeal to the Camcordtima-buying masses, you're setting yourself up for a failure. Why buy something that looks like a Camry if you can just buy a Camry and be done with it? Besides, GM has that market segment covered with the Malibu and Aura. Pontiac needs freedom from that to be viable. With that said, I love the G8, find its styling not bland but appealing, and can't wait to see one in person and possibly put money down on one. They just better have the stick ready by the time I'm ready.

Ohhhh, I think Pontiac is going to get some freedom! :AH-HA_wink:

[cyclonic]

Ohhhh, I think Pontiac is going to get some freedom! :AH-HA_wink:

When its dead. Hopefully GM don't stuff things up so badly that they kill it. They NEED to have Pontiac as a brand.

My main issue here is that there's no cohesive desgin language within Pontiac, nothing about the brand and its vehicles that openly and visually states "I am a Potiac and these are my brothers!". Its so much of a mish-mash of designs and concepts that, as an outsider, its hard to descern what a Pontiac actually is.

Let me put it this way - you can look at Merc's, BMW's and Cadillac's and tell, no matter what the body style, what exactly they are. They carry specific design DNA. Pontiac doesn't have this, and that what I think it needs. A person shouldn't have to ASK what car they're looking at, they should already know or have an awareness. Just using the same grille isn't enough.

[Oracle of Delphi]

When its dead.

That Sir, was my point. Time is running out! Tick Tock, Tick, Tock! :AH-HA_wink:

[Camino LS6]

Then we better get those Holdens here faster. :AH-HA_wink:

More bodystyles,please.

[hyperv6]

I think, at this point in the auto industry, if you err on the side of conservative to appeal to the Camcordtima-buying masses, you're setting yourself up for a failure. Why buy something that looks like a Camry if you can just buy a Camry and be done with it? Besides, GM has that market segment covered with the Malibu and Aura. Pontiac needs freedom from that to be viable. With that said, I love the G8, find its styling not bland but appealing, and can't wait to see one in person and possibly put money down on one. They just better have the stick ready by the time I'm ready.

And everytime you risk a radical style or different concept you stand a good chance of a Aztec or Sunfire with limited appeal. Pontiac can not afford anymore Aztec's. Becareful of what you wish for.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see some more darring Pontiac's as much as most of you. What I fear is they will not be accepeted by many and most of the buyers as has been the case with many of the latest Pontiac's

If Pontiac is to stick there neck out it has to be a home run or it will be sitting on the lots. Of late their batting average is one Solstice and not much else. It is even in the eyes of many the 2nd best Kappa styling.

I think the G8 can work better with some bigger wheels and tires like the show car. some tastefull HSV parts and even some clean color two tone combo's like some of the custom cars are now sporting.

I myself was not a big fan of the 04 GP but with the 5 spoke chrome wheels the GXP spoiler and Stainless tail pipes I hace been suprised how many people tell me they like my car vs most GP's they see. The age range is from teens to 70's. The car in GT form is down right boring and really lookes the rental car part. the rear standard spoiler looks cheap and the ten spoke wheels just never worked on the car as they looked small even in 17" size.

It is the details that count and the G8 GT is only a starting point. Lets just see what Pontiac can do with it once its line starts to expand. The base Bonnie sucked vs the clean GXP too.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Then we better get those Holdens here faster. :AH-HA_wink:

More bodystyles,please.

Holden is in all actuality just one assembly plant. It won't/can't supply all that's needed to save Pontiac. Not with all it's other commitments to, it's Home Market, Asia, Middle East, and South Africa. Tick, tock, tick, tock! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited August 8, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Northstar]

Holden is in all actuality just one assembly plant. It won't/can't supply all that's needed to save Pontiac. Not with all it's other commitments to, it's Home Market, Asia, Middle East, and South Africa. Tick, tock, tick, tock! :AH-HA_wink:

What prevents the production to be moved to Oshawa?

Holden seems pretty valuable to GM if it is providing vehicles to all those different markets and has only one assembly plant...

All that is needed to save Pontiac is:

A cheap 3-Series (hmm... Holden is developing Alpha)

A cheap 5-Series (hmm... Holden developed the G8)

A cheap Z4... Solstice is already here

A cheap BMW-like coupe (hmm... Holden provided Zeta for the Camaro, what's so hard about providing it for a GTO?)

*Note that cheap means cheaper than a BMW in price. A "poor man's" BMW.

Looks like Holden CAN supply all that's needed to save Pontiac. It may not produce all Pontiacs, but it's practically going to develop them all. 4 vehicles may not seem like a lot, but if Pontiac is going to target the performance market specifically, those 4 vehicles listed above cover everything besides the high-end sports car arena, and Pontiac's not going to get something in that...

[Oracle of Delphi]

What prevents the production to be moved to Oshawa?

Holden seems pretty valuable to GM if it is providing vehicles to all those different markets and has only one assembly plant...

All that is needed to save Pontiac is:

A cheap 3-Series (hmm... Holden is developing Alpha)

A cheap 5-Series (hmm... Holden developed the G8)

A cheap Z4... Solstice is already here

A cheap BMW-like coupe (hmm... Holden provided Zeta for the Camaro, what's so hard about providing it for a GTO?)

*Note that cheap means cheaper than a BMW in price. A "poor man's" BMW.

Looks like Holden CAN supply all that's needed to save Pontiac. It may not produce all Pontiacs, but it's practically going to develop them all. 4 vehicles may not seem like a lot, but if Pontiac is going to target the performance market specifically, those 4 vehicles listed above cover everything besides the high-end sports car arena, and Pontiac's not going to get something in that...

Oshawa is not ready to support what's needed to help Pontiac, either in production space or engineering support. Remember top priority is Camaro, so most production engineers are tied up on that project, since so much was promised to so many. Holden is streched to the breaking point in production capacity, remember the utes are coming too and also engineering help to Oshawa for the Camaro, not to mention the mule testing and associated engineering going on with that phase.

Remember Grand Prix was supposed to go bye bye with the Monte at the end of 2007 model year, yet it's still being produced, so that alone means things aren't going according to the original plan.

The vultures are in the sky over the Pontiac division, time as I said is of the essence, will Pontiac make it? I'm not so sure, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't give it more than 4 or 5 years of life left, if that, before it joins Oldsmobile.

But hey, what do I know?

[Northstar]

Oshawa is not ready to support what's needed to help Pontiac, either in production space or engineering support. Remember top priority is Camaro, so most production engineers are tied up on that project, since so much was promised to so many. Holden is streched to the breaking point in production capacity, remember the utes are coming too and also engineering help to Oshawa for the Camaro, not to mention the mule testing and associated engineering going on with that phase.

Remember Grand Prix was supposed to go bye bye with the Monte at the end of 2007 model year, yet it's still being produced, so that alone means things aren't going according to the original plan.

The vultures are in the sky over the Pontiac division, time as I said is of the essence, will Pontiac make it? I'm not so sure, if I were a betting man, I wouldn't give it more than 4 or 5 years of life left, if that, before it joins Oldsmobile.

But hey, what do I know?

Oshawa is not ready? That's fine... Oshawa doesn't need to be ready. Last I checked, the G8 was being produced in AU for the first 3-4 years before a NA-designed car was able to be built. Can't Oshawa be ready in 3-4 years? I would hope so... and who says only Oshawa can help Pontiac. Hell, they could make the Alpha cars just about anywhere.

The original plan was for the Grand Prix to stop production in the middle of 2008 and I have documentation to prove it. I'm not going to post said documentation, but I'm going to go by what it says. Perhaps it changed, but at one point in time a while ago it was set to end then... so even if it was moved up after that, it only got pushed back to the original date.

You say the Camaro is top priority, and it may very well be, but not so much that it's way ahead of everything else. The Impala is schedule to start production 3 months before the Camaro convertible, and only 7 months after the Camaro coupe. There may be no Pontiac, but that's because the G8 is getting produced in a couple months in AU, and the Alpha Pontiac isn't coming for some time. With that in mind, GM plans to refresh the interior and exterior of the G6 for the 2009 model year, and give it a new engine for the 2010 MY. Again, I have documentation to prove it, but I'm not going to post it. That gives the G6 a refresh for the 2009 model year, meaning it likely needs to live on that refresh for 3 years until Alpha arrives. Obviously, it would be better to have the Alpha Pontiac here earlier, but that's just the way it's going to have to be.

GM also has set a date for the NG Solstice. I'd say that's a good sign they don't plan to kill the brand yet.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Oshawa is not ready? That's fine... Oshawa doesn't need to be ready. Last I checked, the G8 was being produced in AU for the first 3-4 years before a NA-designed car was able to be built. Can't Oshawa be ready in 3-4 years? I would hope so... and who says only Oshawa can help Pontiac. Hell, they could make the Alpha cars just about anywhere.

The original plan was for the Grand Prix to stop production in the middle of 2008 and I have documentation to prove it. I'm not going to post said documentation, but I'm going to go by what it says. Perhaps it changed, but at one point in time a while ago it was set to end then... so even if it was moved up after that, it only got pushed back to the original date.

You say the Camaro is top priority, and it may very well be, but not so much that it's way ahead of everything else. The Impala is schedule to start production 3 months before the Camaro convertible, and only 7 months after the Camaro coupe. There may be no Pontiac, but that's because the G8 is getting produced in a couple months in AU, and the Alpha Pontiac isn't coming for some time. With that in mind, GM plans to refresh the interior and exterior of the G6 for the 2009 model year, and give it a new engine for the 2010 MY. Again, I have documentation to prove it, but I'm not going to post it. That gives the G6 a refresh for the 2009 model year, meaning it likely needs to live on that refresh for 3 years until Alpha arrives. Obviously, it would be better to have the Alpha Pontiac here earlier, but that's just the way it's going to have to be.

GM also has set a date for the NG Solstice. I'd say that's a good sign they don't plan to kill the brand yet.

You sure cling to that documentation, have you not heard GM say and print something and change it in their next breath? I have! Have you forgotten I have an office in Wilmington, I know all there is to know about that car (NG Solstice), it's very simple to change a badge and viola, it's a Buick or a Chevy or whatever and no longer a Pontiac. Tick, tock, tick, tock! :AH-HA_wink:

Edited August 9, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Not much meat on them bones. I see the vultures circling above the body of Pontiac.

My opinion is I will be seeing another one of these soon enough:

"Funny, I saw an internal interview with him where he told all of GM, that the GTO was the wrong car, at the wrong time, and it was in his opinion a marketing disaster and by his account a flop!"

It was bad enough watching Lutz eat crow the 1st time, do I have to suffer through it again?

I still say again you know something. I notice in a lot of these threads on this forums you keep saying the same thing in different forms. I was a Pontiac fan back in the day. They stopped offering the kind of car I like a long time ago. I admit, I think the last Bonneville was nice, and almost bought one, but chickened out because too many deficiencies in the interior. It was not the exterior. I do worry for Pontiac because they are getting the squeeze inside and outside of GM, they have no distinct products because everything they have is shared with someone else. I know after the loss of my division, you see things differently. You see the reality of the situation. Most get caught up in the emotions of the car or the brand, and forget business is still business at the end of the day.

The question then becomes .. What makes a Pontiac a Pontiac?

I have said it before.. the dust has not settled, and either GM cars will die or another division will die. You know something PCS. You may joke a lot, but I can READ BETWEEN THE LINES. That G8 fails, it is curtains..

Edited August 9, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[VenSeattle]

You sure cling to that documentation, have you not heard GM say and print something and change it in their next breath? I have! Have you forgotten I have an office in Wilmington, I know all there is to know about that car (NG Solstice), it's very simple to change a badge and viola, it's a Buick or a Chevy or whatever and no longer a Pontiac. Tick, tock, tick, tock! :AH-HA_wink:

Could this be the reason why we're starting to see contradictory stories about the Buick Excelle replacement (and future US Buick compact) being on Alpha instead of Delta II? If Pontiac is phased out, Cadillac will still need another brand to share the costs. Alpha would make an excellent premium compact Buick.

[Z-06]

I can see where P_C_S is coming from. When they integrated B-P-G, GM took off the scare from the Oldsmobile horror of shelling out cash closing a brand.

Solstice and RWD vehicles can definitely be integrated into Buick and with GMC, they will need only two brands under one dealership banner.

The advantages are

1. No need to advertise for another brand.

2. Buick can be old man's Lexus (Lucerne, Enclave, and other FWD) and young men's BMW (Alpha, Solstice) and a mix of RWD with Zeta.

3. Some crossovers (Enclave and a smaller crossover on the Theta, which the GMC will get)

4. GMC will take care of the trucks.

The fact that no GTO or sister-Camaro for Pontiac on the impeccable Zeta took me off guard. But I think P_C_S point of view definitely makes sense. I am yet to hear Pontiac has a bright future from Lutz. I have heard him say about Buick, Hummer, GMC, Saturn and hell even SAAB now.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Time is like the grains of sand through an hour glass, and not many grains of sand left to fall through now.

[ZL-1]

Time is like the grains of sand through an hour glass, and not many grains of sand left to fall through now.

In the immortal words of the Sex Pistols:

No future, no future,

No future for you

if we set 'you' = 'Pontiac'

[Cory Wolfe]

I still say again you know something. I notice in a lot of these threads on this forums you keep saying the same thing in different forms. I was a Pontiac fan back in the day. They stopped offering the kind of car I like a long time ago. I admit, I think the last Bonneville was nice, and almost bought one, but chickened out because too many deficiencies in the interior. It was not the exterior. I do worry for Pontiac because they are getting the squeeze inside and outside of GM, they have no distinct products because everything they have is shared with someone else. I know after the loss of my division, you see things differently. You see the reality of the situation. Most get caught up in the emotions of the car or the brand, and forget business is still business at the end of the day.

The question then becomes .. What makes a Pontiac a Pontiac?

I have said it before.. the dust has not settled, and either GM cars will die or another division will die. You know something PCS. You may joke a lot, but I can READ BETWEEN THE LINES. That G8 fails, it is curtains..

PCS simply has a bone to pick with Lutz and Holden. Nothing more, nothing less. I think he could care less about Pontiac. He has made it clear that he wants to see the G8 fail... for his own personal agenda. I think it's obvious that if the G8 fails, Pontiac is going to be on dire terms. Everyone, whether they love or hate the G8 expresses hope that it will succeed, for the brand's sake. Not him.

[Camino LS6]

GM will not kill Pontiac, at least not in the near term as the cost would be prohibitive. Don't forget that the integration of the B-P-G sales channnel is far from complete. So Pontiac is safe for a minimum of 5 years as I see it, and I expect the brand to gain an identitiy and turn itself around long before the axe even could fall.

Isn't going to happen.

[Northstar]

PCS simply has a bone to pick with Lutz and Holden. Nothing more, nothing less. I think he could care less about Pontiac. He has made it clear that he wants to see the G8 fail... for his own personal agenda. I think it's obvious that if the G8 fails, Pontiac is going to be on dire terms. Everyone, whether they love or hate the G8 expresses hope that it will succeed, for the brand's sake. Not him.

Cosign.

[Oracle of Delphi]

U think?

[ejspecial]

Nothing unusual about Opel "people" being jealous/envious of Holden, it goes back a long way. It is a bit frustrating however as we wish nothing but the best for our "little German mates".

[Oracle of Delphi]

Nothing unusual about Opel "people" being jealous/envious of Holden, it goes back a long way. It is a bit frustrating however as we wish nothing but the best for our "little German mates".

Opel? Who works for Opel?

[ocnblu]

Thanks for the insight, ejspecial. Please tell us more.