The Future of Pontiac - Autoweek

[RJB]

Next-Gen Pontiac Performance
Brand wants to add muscle but wrestles with CAFE standards

20XX Pontiac G6 Sketch by Zulehan
Link to Original Article @ AutoWeek | Published 07/30/07, 12:08 pm et

AT A GLANCE:
FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS
2008
G8 debuts

2009
Solstice coupe debuts

2010
Possible G5 redesign

2011
Solstice restyled, re-engineered

----------------------

General Motors wants to transform Pontiac into its "affordable performance" brand with a new lineup of rear-wheel-drive cars.

But the CAFE debate has thrown those plans into turmoil.

G5: General Motors might replace Pontiac's entry-level car with a redesigned model, possibly as early as the 2010 model year. Rear drive has been mentioned for the next G5, as Pontiac moves away from front-drive cars.

The bottom line: The current G5 may remain in Pontiac's lineup one or two years longer than originally planned.

G6: "What do we do now?" also might be the question for the next-generation G6.

The first plan was to restyle and re-engineer the G6 on GM's new Epsilon 2 front-wheel-drive vehicle architecture, debuting for the 2010 model year. But that plan was canceled in the past year when GM executives decided that the brand's cars should all be rwd to further distinguish Pontiacs from Chevrolets. The Pontiac Solstice is rwd, as is the Pontiac G8 sedan that goes on sale in January.

So the next-generation G6 was shifted to GM's new global rwd vehicle architecture, called Alpha. The redesigned G6 had been slated for the 2012 model year with assembly in the Oshawa, Ontario, plant. The rwd G6 is larger and heavier than the current fwd model.

But with the push in Congress to dramatically boost CAFE standards, the rwd G6 program was put on hold. Later, it was put back on track pending the resolution of the CAFE debate by Congress and the Bush administration. It appears to be on hold again.

Grand Prix: GM will discontinue the Grand Prix at the end of the 2007 model year. Expect most of the last Grand Prix models to be sold to daily rental fleets.

G8: The 2008 Pontiac G8 will be the first car sold in the United States developed on GM's global rwd vehicle architecture. The car is essentially a Pontiac version of the redesigned Holden Commodore, which was developed by GM's Australian subsidiary. The G8 will be assembled in Australia; U.S. sales begin in January.

The G8 shares much of its sheet metal with the Commodore. Unique to the G8 are the hood, front fascia, grille and headlights. The fascia and bumpers had to be engineered to meet U.S. specifications.

The base G8 will have a 261-hp, 3.6-liter V-6; the GT model will have a 362-hp, 6.0-liter V-8.

The G8 is intended to be Pontiac's flagship sedan, eventually replacing the Grand Prix. But it will be one step up in terms of price, starting at around $25,000.

GTO: Some within GM want to add a sporty, high-performance coupe to the Pontiac range, a spiritual successor to the GTO and Firebird. There is no time frame for such a car, and at this point, neither the GTO nor Firebird name likely would be used.

Solstice: A fastback coupe is scheduled to be added for the 2009 model year. Higher-horsepower engines are planned, but a V-6 is not. GM likely will re-engineer and reskin or restyle the Solstice for the 2011 model year.

Torrent: The Torrent crossover ends production in January 2010, leaving Pontiac with a car-only product line. The Torrent's replacement shifts to GMC, with production set to start in the first quarter of 2010 as a 2011 model.

[gm4life]

Glad I am getting my Torrent prolly with-in the next year then.

[Chris_Doane]

The Solstice Targa starts production in 2009. The Torrent isnt quite dead....just moving to GMC.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Oracle of Delphi]

Old news, at least for me!

[Camino LS6]

I'd much rather see a proper coupe than a targa. I've loved the coupe since the concept debuted.

Oh well.

Maybe the next gen.

[ZL-1]

Old news, at least for me!

I wonder why

That RWD G5 idea is interesting. I'd like to see a RWD range to take care of what today are the G5 and G6. Sorta like having a NG RWD G6 that is between present day G5 and G6 sizewise and then have a larger RWD car on Zeta, the G8. Add multiple body styles to each range and you'd have a nice lineup of RWD cars :AH-HA_wink:

Edited July 31, 2007 by ZL-1

[Oracle of Delphi]

I wonder why

Hmmmm, thinking, thinking?

[pow]

Yay, better looks, improved handling, rollover protection, trunk space, and a sunroof to boot!

[Z-06]

I'd much rather see a proper coupe than a targa. I've loved the coupe since the concept debuted.

Oh well.

Maybe the next gen.

+1. There is no comparison for a sports handling coupe.

[AAS]

The remake of GM's performance brand will also include the demise of the Torrent, while the G5 will be replaced with the RWD Alpha platform by 2010 – unless CAFE standards put those plans on hold.

Why does RWD imply poor gas mileage? I can understand if mileage slightly decreases... but not so much as to let "CAFE standards put those plans on hold."

[Z-06]

Why does RWD imply poor gas mileage? I can understand if mileage slightly decreases... but not so much as to let "CAFE standards put those plans on hold."

Because the media is still stuck in the good old days of the seventies, when RWD = Less economy. Actually, the economy gap between the two has been almost diminished, when you see similarly powered and same weight FWD and RWD cars.

[Cory Wolfe]

Hmm... Targa... It's better than nothing, but I think a lightweight coupe style would befit it better.

[ocnblu]

A targa presents a problem that a full coupe doesn't: where to store the top while traveling, especially if you're on a summer weekend jaunt and need load space for your bags. I'd rather have a full hatch coupe as close to the original concept as possible. Still, I'm glad GM is investing in continuous development of the Kappa platform. Can't wait to see the production version.

Maybe they'll make a Special Edition targa in black with gold snowflake wheels, tan leather seats, and a screaming chicken hood decal. Kidding, but it could be sideways cool. :AH-HA_wink:

Edited August 1, 2007 by ocnblu

[ToniCipriani]

So basically the G6 is almost doing the same thing as the new Malibu. Moving up in size and sucking up the sales from the Grand Prix move. Except that the G6 is going RWD.

[AxelTheRed]

I like the idea that Pontiac = cars ONLY.

No crossovers, SUVs or vans ever again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

That looks skimpy....

I hope the current G6 doesn't have to carry Pontiac on it's shoulders until 2012 without an MCE because if it does the division is toast.

The most recent articles I've seen say that the G6 will be sold along side the Alpha Pontiac, much like the rumors of both an Alpha based Saturn as well as the Aura that we heard.

[Chicagoland]

Imagine a diesel G8? Also, G6 going RWD is on hold again, according to article.

[vrazzhledazzle]

I hate CAFE. coupe!pleaseG6isyourmostimportantcarfigureoutwhattodowithitfastt

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not much meat on them bones. I see the vultures circling above the body of Pontiac.

[smk4565]

For Pontiac to succeed they have to become a rear drive version or Mazda/Nissan/Acura. $22-35,000 price range, offering more performance and aluminum trim, sporty style interiors. They can do it with 3 basic models and varients also, and Pontiac should be 0% fleet sale, I know that will be hard for them since the Grand Prix is 78% rental sales and the G6 is about 30%, but they have to give that up. All Pontiacs should be DOHC (aside from the V8 in the G8) and 6-speed transmissions.

Solstice coupe/convertible is doing well, they got that right, just needs updated as years go by.

G5/G6 whatever they call it should be sedan and coupe (with a backseat) and sized close to the 3-series and A4. I suppose they could do a convertible of this too, since the other brands don't have a 4 seat convertible aside from Saab. The G5/G6 should price around $23-30,000 (a lil more if there is a convertible), it will overlap the solstice, but it is a different kind of car Base engine should be a 4-cylinder + hybrid or the the 2.0 turbo 4 cylinder. They can't put rental grade 4 cylinders in Pontiacs anymore, they have to offer something special. I'd like to see a 2.8L DI V6 with and without turbo, it could offer good mileage and power and be used in the base Cadillac BTS as well as the GXP Pontiac sedan.

G8 we'll see how it is, personally I think it is rather big, and the GTO was a bust. I fear that could happen again due to the blandness of Holden styling not selling here, and the G8 sucking gas and for $35,000 there are smaller, faster, sportier cars that get 4 mpg more. The G8 really only competes with the Charger RT and 300C, so it has that going for it, very few rear drive sedans of it's size for that price.

[dimitri0917]

G5 is going to go RWD? And fight what? Right now I see it going against the Scion Tc and such. I guess it could be the REALLY poor man's BMW 1. It needs to die and Buick should get a small RWD car. They need it. Pontiac Doesn't.

Pontiac has to be the poor man's BMW, not this racy image with subprime product. And that includes good RWD cars.

G8 is a good 5 series competitor.

G6 needs to be as good as a 3er.

NG GTO needs to be a good value priced 6er.

Solstice is already doing a good job in it's niche.

You see where I'm going? They just don't need a value 7er. Leave that for Buick's Park Avenue, if it ever comes.

[Flybrian]

there are smaller, faster, sportier cars that get 4 mpg more.

Some people don't want a subcompact car at a fullsize price and do not want to sacrifice spaciousness and cargo room.

[smk4565]

GM needs to clear out overlap, so the G6 should die because the Aura and Malibu are better.

I'd give one last try with Pontiac and give them a small rear drive sedan/coupe, sales volumes will drop, but profit could rise, and if that little rear drive car is great, they'll sell 150,000 a year.

GM complains about CAFE and other standards, well they need to get creative with how to make horsepower. They need to forget about 3.5-3.9 liter pushrod V6s that make 210 hp, a Civic Si makes 200 hp from a 2 liter engine. The Solstice GXP motor shows they know how to do it, Pontiac needs to focus on smaller cars, fun to drive and high tech DOHC engines with variable valve timing, direct injection, etc. So many young people like the import tuner style cars, and actually prefer a high revving 4 cylinder over a V6. They need to go high tech, that should get the younger people in the door.

Plus with the Camaro and other cars, GM has a ton of V6 and even V8 midsize - near large cars. I'd love to see Pontiac make smaller cars than the Malibu/Aura and with 2.0 turbos making 260 hp and make them totally different from the rest of the GM cars.

If that doesn't work within 10 years, the brand probably should die.

Edited August 2, 2007 by smk4565

[smk4565]

Some people don't want a subcompact car at a fullsize price and do not want to sacrifice spaciousness and cargo room.

Not a subcompact, the Alpha sedan (whatever they call it) should be about 182-183 inches long. That is about 5 less than the G6 is now, but with a rear drive platform and less front and rear overhang the interior space should be the same. The 3-series is only 180 inches long, yet is offers only 1 inch less legroom than the CTS.

They have the G8 for rear drive, full size fans. And GM has the Malibu and Aura in the midsize range. GM currently has nothing semi small and nice, not 1 car (I am not counting the Vette and XLR). But they have about 10 sedans over 190 inches in length. Average car price is $28,000 now, A CamCord is about 20-29,000. I think a G5 priced 23-29,000 would still be an average priced car. If the base car is a 2.0 turbo, with 260 hp and 22/32 mpg, with 17 inch rims that is a pretty awesome deal. They have to give up on make a ho-hum 4-banger, with a 4speed auto, plastic wheel covers, all plastic interior like the base G6 is now.

Lots of smaller sized cars sell well, the 3-series, Jetta, Mazda 3, are examples. If Pontiac makes a great looking sporty car it will be a hit. If they rehash another midsize rental looking sedan they will keep going downhill.

[stillen]

I have a question concerning parts replacement for the G8 will they have to shipped from Australia if so that would bring up some bad situations waiting on parts.

[Oracle of Delphi]

For Pontiac to succeed they have to become a rear drive version or Mazda/Nissan/Acura. $22-35,000 price range, offering more performance and aluminum trim, sporty style interiors. They can do it with 3 basic models and varients also, and Pontiac should be 0% fleet sale, I know that will be hard for them since the Grand Prix is 78% rental sales and the G6 is about 30%, but they have to give that up. All Pontiacs should be DOHC (aside from the V8 in the G8) and 6-speed transmissions.

Solstice coupe/convertible is doing well, they got that right, just needs updated as years go by.

G5/G6 whatever they call it should be sedan and coupe (with a backseat) and sized close to the 3-series and A4. I suppose they could do a convertible of this too, since the other brands don't have a 4 seat convertible aside from Saab. The G5/G6 should price around $23-30,000 (a lil more if there is a convertible), it will overlap the solstice, but it is a different kind of car Base engine should be a 4-cylinder + hybrid or the the 2.0 turbo 4 cylinder. They can't put rental grade 4 cylinders in Pontiacs anymore, they have to offer something special. I'd like to see a 2.8L DI V6 with and without turbo, it could offer good mileage and power and be used in the base Cadillac BTS as well as the GXP Pontiac sedan.

G8 we'll see how it is, personally I think it is rather big, and the GTO was a bust. I fear that could happen again due to the blandness of Holden styling not selling here, and the G8 sucking gas and for $35,000 there are smaller, faster, sportier cars that get 4 mpg more. The G8 really only competes with the Charger RT and 300C, so it has that going for it, very few rear drive sedans of it's size for that price.

Oh I'm liking how you think! I see a long term friendship in the making!

[smk4565]

G5 is going to go RWD? And fight what? Right now I see it going against the Scion Tc and such. I guess it could be the REALLY poor man's BMW 1. It needs to die and Buick should get a small RWD car. They need it. Pontiac Doesn't.

Pontiac has to be the poor man's BMW, not this racy image with subprime product. And that includes good RWD cars.

G8 is a good 5 series competitor.

G6 needs to be as good as a 3er.

NG GTO needs to be a good value priced 6er.

Solstice is already doing a good job in it's niche.

You see where I'm going? They just don't need a value 7er. Leave that for Buick's Park Avenue, if it ever comes.

I always thought the Alpha sedan would be G6, now they say G5, either way there will only be one sedan the front drive G5 and G6 are going to die off, as they should. To be a value 3-series, which is what I want to see, it needs to be about 182 inches long.

The G8 is nearly the size of a 750i, and Pontiac will never be cross shopped with BMW anyway. They should look more at the Mini Cooper and Jetta and capitalize on the current Civic Si, Mazda3, Scions, etc that will likely want a nicer and sportier car in 3 years. Pontiac can capture that whole market.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I have a question concerning parts replacement for the G8 will they have to shipped from Australia if so that would bring up some bad situations waiting on parts.

Don't worry mate! We'll ship them by Kangaroo Express!

G'Day mate!

[emh]

That looks skimpy....

I hope the current G6 doesn't have to carry Pontiac on it's shoulders until 2012 without an MCE because if it does the division is toast.

My thoughts exactly... and it needs to be a very significant MCE too.

The most recent articles I've seen say that the G6 will be sold along side the Alpha Pontiac, much like the rumors of both an Alpha based Saturn as well as the Aura that we heard.

I'd much rather see 2 well executed Alphas -- a Pontiac at a mainstream price point and a Cadillac at a premium price point. Saturn should be fine with FWD -- all of it's competition is.

[Drew Dowdell]

They need to forget about 3.5-3.9 liter pushrod V6s that make 210 hp, a Civic Si makes 200 hp from a 2 liter engine.

HP per litre is a superfluous argument.

That Honda 2 liter needs to spin to 80,000rpm to make all 200horses.

How would that go over in a Buick LaCross which is known for quietness?

Not everyone wants to drive a weedwacker.

[smk4565]

HP per litre is a superfluous argument.

That Honda 2 liter needs to spin to 80,000rpm to make all 200horses.

How would that go over in a Buick LaCross which is known for quietness?

Not everyone wants to drive a weedwacker.

I meant engines like that for Pontiac, so they can capture the import crowd. And the Solstice GXP engine doesn't need to rev above 6,000 to make a lot of power, turbo 4s and small DI V6s should be what Pontiac is about.

The CTS DI V6 revs to close to 7000 rpm, as does the Corvette Z06, yet no body complains.

The BMW 335i has a 3 liter, 300 hp engine that gets the same gas mileage as the 3800 with 197 hp, I'll take the BMW's engine over the 3800 any day of the week.

As far as Buick goes, I have driven a few 3800 cars, my grandmother has a LeSabre and it is not refined. Pushrods are not refined, regardless of how much sound proofing they do. Buicks should have 2.8 and 3.6 liter DI V6s. (if they live long enough)

Edited August 2, 2007 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

The BMW 335i has a 3 liter, 300 hp engine that gets the same gas mileage as the 3800 with 197 hp, I'll take the BMW's engine over the 3800 any day of the week.

No you won't, you'll pay $15,000 more for it.

[smk4565]

No you won't, you'll pay $15,000 more for it.

The BMW engine itself is probably $2000-3000 more than a 3800 V6. The car costs more because it is a better car. I bought an Aurora and paid more than what I'd spend on a 3800 V6 car because I like DOHC engines, I'll always pay for a better engine.

Personally I want an Ultra V8, if they offer a turbo or supercharger I'd likely spring for it. But if it makes 400 hp naturally in a car of CTS size I'd be fine with that.

GM needs to focus on Direct injection DOHC engines that are smaller than the old pushrods but more power, better fuel economy. People like technology and refinement. The pushrod V6 makes cars seem out dated or old fashioned, but no one is criticizing the CTS's DI V6.

[jbartley]

nothing we didn't expect. the G6 is critical to Pontiac's success, it's too bad the CAFE is holding it in limbo.

[bostonspider]

So is the new Vibe now completely done with???

[smk4565]

So is the new Vibe now completely done with???

I hope so, Toyota is evil. They don't need a Vibe or any other wimpy cars.

On another note,

Rear wheel drive doesn't yield poor gas mileage. GM uses that as an excuse. The BMW 3-series is rear drive and gets mileage as good as a many of the GM front drivers. Weight and outdated engines and transmissions hurt gas mileage. If they do a rear drive car smaller than the G6 and 100 pounds lighter and a 6-speed, not a 4 speed tranny, and the Solstice GXP motor, they'll probably get 21/30 mpg (using 2008 guidelines) vs 18/26 for a V6 G6 that they make now. And they'll have 260 hp, not 217.

The rear drive Lexus LS460 (381 hp V8) under 2008 ratings gets 17/25 mpg. A 3800 Grand Prix gets 17/26 and a 3900 G6 gets 16/25 mpg.

[gm4life]

GTO by no means was a bust. It was a success by almost all accounts. Paved way for the G8 didn't it. I think a CUV/SUV should be considered look at BMW they even have two.

[hyperv6]

GM needs to clear out overlap, so the G6 should die because the Aura and Malibu are better.

I'd give one last try with Pontiac and give them a small rear drive sedan/coupe, sales volumes will drop, but profit could rise, and if that little rear drive car is great, they'll sell 150,000 a year.

GM complains about CAFE and other standards, well they need to get creative with how to make horsepower. They need to forget about 3.5-3.9 liter pushrod V6s that make 210 hp, a Civic Si makes 200 hp from a 2 liter engine. The Solstice GXP motor shows they know how to do it, Pontiac needs to focus on smaller cars, fun to drive and high tech DOHC engines with variable valve timing, direct injection, etc. So many young people like the import tuner style cars, and actually prefer a high revving 4 cylinder over a V6. They need to go high tech, that should get the younger people in the door.

Plus with the Camaro and other cars, GM has a ton of V6 and even V8 midsize - near large cars. I'd love to see Pontiac make smaller cars than the Malibu/Aura and with 2.0 turbos making 260 hp and make them totally different from the rest of the GM cars.

If that doesn't work within 10 years, the brand probably should die.

Ypu are going to see a grater use of the 3.6 and 2.0 in many cars. Their power is going to both be near 300 HP and higher. Pontiac will get the use of both engines.

We are only a year to a year and a half from seeing a power increase in the Eco and the new camaro will see near 320 Hp in a V6. GM knows their future lies in the smaller overhead cam engines and will use them in many cars.

Even if CAFE is not raised the price of gas will force many to accept the V6 cars in many cases and most will be happy with 300 HP and 30 plus MPG highway. The V8 will be there for those who can afford them and trucks.

GM tried to go smaller before with few taking. Untill the price of Fuel is high enough the same will still happen. Most Americans are not willing to drive Fits, Yaris and Aveo's.

[Chris_Doane]

So is the new Vibe now completely done with???

No it's still coming.

[gm4life]

Is it a Toyota based deal, or a GM this time.

[buyacargetacheck]

A cheap rear-drive small car might have some success with kids. But the volumes as a Pontiac will never be high, and neither will the profit. Plus, for GM to make money it'll have to share the platform with Saturn or Chevy further diluting the branding messages. The G8 will flop because, like the GTO, it looks dull. The G6 is an also ran. 2011 is a long way away. Rising fuel prices will kill demand for performance (imagine fuel prices spiking 50% or more overnight sometime in the next couple of years for geopolitical reasons a la 1973). Pontiac is dead. Convert BPG dealers to something like Chevrolet Limited. Concentrate on the Chevrolet brand before it's too late!

[gm4life]

Pontiac's volume might go down but it won't be enough to merit killing them off. Trust me, they are staying. They will sell less cars but the RWD push has become clear. Agree or not it is coming some of it will be good, other parts will hurt them more because they can't sell cars in volume.

[Chris_Doane]

Is it a Toyota based deal, or a GM this time.

Same as always.

[gm4life]

Darn it. Chris I didn't want to hear that!

[Oracle of Delphi]

GTO by no means was a bust. It was a success by almost all accounts. Paved way for the G8 didn't it. I think a CUV/SUV should be considered look at BMW they even have two.

All accounts but Lutz'!

[gm4life]

Yeah I know about Lutz. Happen to have alot of respect for the man... Gee he gave Pontiac two kicks the GTO and the Solstice. He also gave the greenies and Chevy a Volt. Gotta love Bob. Pontiac would no be where it is today without the best selling roadster in the US the Solstice or the GTO that paved way for the next generation of RWD Holden/GM developed cars that will be introduced within the next 4 or so years including the sexy new G8!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yeah I know about Lutz. Happen to have alot of respect for the man... Gee he gave Pontiac two kicks the GTO and the Solstice. He also gave the greenies and Chevy a Volt. Gotta love Bob. Pontiac would no be where it is today without the best selling roadster in the US the Solstice or the GTO that paved way for the next generation of RWD Holden/GM developed cars that will be introduced within the next 4 or so years including the sexy new G8!

Funny, I saw an internal interview with him where he told all of GM, that the GTO was the wrong car, at the wrong time, and it was in his opinion a marketing disaster and by his account a flop!

[gm4life]

I know that but he was the one who said to build it. :AH-HA_wink:

[Oracle of Delphi]

I know that but he was the one who said to build it. :AH-HA_wink:

Exactly!

[Z-06]

All accounts but Lutz'!

So you DO NOT mind another Holden in US??