Lifter Noise

[Intrepidation]

Since we got back from the road trip I've noticed a low noise coming from the engine, it sounds sort of like knocking, but not a loud knock. This happens after the engine has warmed up...when it first starts it doesn't make the noise. Like I said, it's not very loud, you can only hear it if the car is stopped and the Air is off and the radio is off.

I took it to Clark Chrysler the other day for it's oil change and mentioned it, they took a look and determined it to be the lifters, and said it wasn't anything to worry about unless it got louder. I also talked to someone else who said it may be because of the oil that was in it needing to be changed, or that it's just the fact that it's a high mileage engine. It changed it at 3,004 miles after it's last one.

I just wanted to know what you guys thought, and if anyone else has any experience with it.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Intrepidation]

Anyone?

[CMG]

Anyone?

What engine?

What viscosity oil are you running? A worn engine will have greater clearances and less oil pressure usually. Is the ticking noise just at idle, or will the tick continue as the rpms increase?

More info!

A "good" mechanic should be able to tell you EXACTLY what the noise is, and where it is coming from... and why.

I would pop a valve cover off (depending on the engine of course :AH-HA_wink: ) and while the engine idled I would push down on the rocker tips. Easy way to see which lifter is the culprit IMO.

Many different ways to go about it, depending on the engine and the chassis layout.

[CMG]

What you're hearing is the dreaded 2.7 "lifter tick." It happens because the oil passages of the engine become clogged and starve the top end of the engine. It's a design flaw that has killed a lot of 2.7s. In fact there is even a class action lawsuit going on about the 2.7 right now.

What will happen is the noise will get louder until you start burning oil or your engine will fail. My best advice is either get rid of the car now or switch to synthetic oil and hope for the best.

How do the passages become "clogged"? Which passages, any idea?

[CMG]

I searched and found "oil sludge". Is there any way he could run a quart of tranny fluid in the engine for an hour or so before changing the oil and hope the detergent does some good on the passages affected? Or an oil flush of some kind?

[Intrepidation]

What you're hearing is the dreaded 2.7 "lifter tick." It happens because the oil passages of the engine become clogged and starve the top end of the engine. It's a design flaw that has killed a lot of 2.7s. In fact there is even a class action lawsuit going on about the 2.7 right now.

What will happen is the noise will get louder until you start burning oil or your engine will fail. My best advice is either get rid of the car now or switch to synthetic oil and hope for the best.

I don't want to get rid of the car, because it's been great so far and I love it...but this isn't happy news for sure. I haven't really listened to it since the oil change, so I dunno if it's gone away or not. Would an engine flush and then switch to synthetic help? I heard that engine flushes can sometimes damages seals and gaskets...is that true?

Also, why would it not make the noise when the car is not warmed up?

--

CMG,

It's the 2.7L in the Intrepid.

[Intrepidation]

The passages that go from the crank case to the lifters. A combination of the oil pump not having enough capacity and the passages being to small means they can clog up and not flow as well as they should. It's a design problem, it's nothing Dodgefan has done wrong.

There are a few ways you can flush sludge out of the engine. One way is to get a a bottle of Amsoil Engine Flush or similar facsimile, run the car at an idle the car for 20-30 minutes and change the oil. Amsoil has worked pretty well for me.

Another way is to install a cheap filter and run some really thin oil like 0-W40, 0-W20 or diesel oil like 15-W40 through the engine for 20-30 minutes and drain. I've used this method as well and it has worked fine, but it was on some pretty old engines. Keep in mind if you have any oil leaks this will exacerbate them, so be prepared to do some clean up if needed.

A final way is to have a professional shop do a crankcase flush. Basically they hook a big machine up to your engine and run a detergent through the engine while it is running and use the machine to filter any sludge out. The procedure is around $50 - $100 and saves the hassle of the other two methods.

What I would do is flush the engine and switch to full synthetic oil since it is much more resistant to sludging and flows better than regular oil. If that solves the problem, than great. If not, I'd look for a different engine/car.

So a flush wouldn't damage gaskets or seals unless they are already leaking, in which case it would make it worse?

The only "leak" that I know of is the oil sending switch, which I've been meaning to replace but leaks tiny amounts so it hasn't been done yet...what with the whole Prizm accident and all.

If that's the best way to go I'll have it flushed and have Mobil 1 put in the car from now on...if that solves the problem than that's awesome, if not I'll look at prices for a 3.2 engine. Believe it or not it costs less than the 2.7, makes more power, and has none of the problems.

I miss Chrysler's older engines...they were very durable...that 2.5L in the Shadow leaks like hell but goes and goes and goes.

Oh yeah CMG, the noise speeds up as the engine revs...but you can't heard it after it gets above 2,000 rpm.

Edited July 28, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Intrepidation]

A flush won't damage the gaskets or seals at all. It will just leak out of them some more during the flush since the flush is thinner than the oil. Think of it like pouring water through a sieve as opposed to honey.

Makes sense, I've been thinking of converting it to synthetic anyway, so it shall be done...flush then synthetic. Mobil 1 is the preferred one correct?

[CMG]

I don't have any experience with a 2.7 Chrysler at all, but it sounds like flushing as best as possible and replacing the oil with synthetic is the way to go after reading this thread, or flushing each oil change while replacing with synthetic. I would think a noticeable difference should be heard after a couple oil changes.

How about a high pressure oil pump, would that have helped the 2.7? Are the oil passages too small, in a poor location, or both? It seems like a TSB should have been issued for sure.... maybe requiring synthetic oil at oil changes or something of the like?

[CMG]

I miss Chrysler's older engines...they were very durable...that 2.5L in the Shadow leaks like hell but goes and goes and goes.

The 2.5 was based on the 2.2 but had balance shafts. I actually like the 2.2 for what it was, it was a modern day slant 6, but in turbo configuration it actually had some power. GLH and GLH-S come to mind.

Let us know what you do, and how things turn out.

[Intrepidation]

I don't have any experience with a 2.7 Chrysler at all, but it sounds like flushing as best as possible and replacing the oil with synthetic is the way to go after reading this thread, or flushing each oil change while replacing with synthetic. I would think a noticeable difference should be heard after a couple oil changes.

How about a high pressure oil pump, would that have helped the 2.7? Are the oil passages too small, in a poor location, or both? It seems like a TSB should have been issued for sure.... maybe requiring synthetic oil at oil changes or something of the like?

There are several design flaws with this engine. The passages are too small and can be easily blocked. The water pump is located inside the block of the engine, and when it leaks it gets water into the oil pan, causing the oil to sludge easily under heat. There are also reports that the timing chain tensioner are not strong enough...but most failures occur because they become staved of oil. It is an absolutely horrible design for an engine...unfortunately I bought the car before I new about this, and at the time it ran great with no noise whatsoever.

The 3.2L and 3.5L have none of these issues, and what's strange is that the 3.2L was discontinued after the LH cars were, and never used again as far as I know, while the 2.7L carries on in the LX cars, Sebring, and Avenger.

Would I buy another Intrepid? Absolutely, they are fantastic cars, but I wouldn't go with a 2.7L. Plus, it would probably be cheaper to swap a 3.2L into mine if it came to that. Still, I'd like to prevent the engine from failing if I can...so I'll do flushing and synthetic.

The engine may have a lot of miles on it, but it's been well maintained all of it's life...this is not something that should be happening. I love Chrysler, but I hate them at the same time for allowing this engine to be brought to market with no recall or anything.

I wonderif we'll start seeing Chargers for 800 bucks because the engine died in them?

[CaddyXLR-V]

What you're hearing is the dreaded 2.7 "lifter tick." It happens because the oil passages of the engine become clogged and starve the top end of the engine. It's a design flaw that has killed a lot of 2.7s. In fact there is even a class action lawsuit going on about the 2.7 right now.

What will happen is the noise will get louder until you start burning oil or your engine will fail. My best advice is either get rid of the car now or switch to synthetic oil and hope for the best.

The exact same thing happened to my brothers 06 Charger with the 3.5L. Luckily, his only had 25,000 miles and the dealership fixed it for him.

[CMG]

There are several design flaws with this engine. The passages are too small and can be easily blocked. The water pump is located inside the block of the engine, and when it leaks it gets water into the oil pan, causing the oil to sludge easily under heat.

WOW!

Sounds like a recipe for disaster right there. The "water and oil don't mix" thing musta been overlooked. I have a weird feeling the oil passages wouldn't be as much to blame as what's going through those oil passages. Not a good scenario to have a water pump in an oil pan, it's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

[Intrepidation]

WOW!

Sounds like a recipe for disaster right there. The "water and oil don't mix" thing musta been overlooked. I have a weird feeling the oil passages wouldn't be as much to blame as what's going through those oil passages. Not a good scenario to have a water pump in an oil pan, it's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

You think think it'd be a no-brainer wouldn't you?

I'm going to have my normal mechanic look at it and see what he makes of it.

[FAPTurbo]

$h!e... kind of a bad automotive spell for you these days...

If you have the money, and the will, I'd say it'd be good to grab the 3.2L. It's a nice engine, and was in my uncle's Concorde, which was a pretty sweet ride.

[Intrepidation]

$h!e... kind of a bad automotive spell for you these days...

If you have the money, and the will, I'd say it'd be good to grab the 3.2L. It's a nice engine, and was in my uncle's Concorde, which was a pretty sweet ride.

I know right? >.<

I paid about 4 grand less than what the car is worth when I bought it, I figure if I had to replace the engine it would break even. I don't want to have to have it come to that, but the car's too nice to junk...it's not it's fault Chrysler had Mitsubishi design a piece of &#036;h&#33; V6.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Intrepidation]

Hey CMG, here is an interesting read on just how flawed the engine really is, and that Chrysler even admits that it's flawed...but has not done anything for it's customers. This is from the Jasper website.

Chrysler hired the Impartial Services Group (ISG) out of Texas to

negotiate settlements of claims. We do suggest you contact the ISG at

866-332-3746 to see what they will offer you. Tell them you got their

number from the Center for Auto Safety - it seems to help. If you

don't like the offer, make a counter offer as they may increase the

amount.

--Oil starvation is a problem with this engine, so JASPER installs

the newest design oil line which has a larger diameter pipe to allow

more oil flow and better lubrication. The newer design pipe has one

gentle bend opposed to the original which had two 90-degree bends

which tends to restrict to oil flow.

--To prevent bearing failure JASPER installs aluminum rod & main

bearings instead of tri-metal bearings. The aluminum bearings

conform to the mating surface more completely, which provides more

exact clearances. The aluminum bearings are also more corrosion

resistant. The original tri-metal bearings were prone to not conform

well, which led to dirt and debris becoming lodged in the bearing due

to excessive bearing clearances.

--Water pumps on this engine have been known to leak or fail. One of

the issues leading up to this was due to the timing chain tensioner.

It would apply more tension to the chain then was needed, causing

stress on the water pump. JASPER installs a later design tensioner,

which applies the right amount of tension on the timing chain and

reduces the stress on the water pump. JASPER also updates increases

the number of needle bearings for the pump in order to handle the

load and updates the gasket material to help seal the pump to the

block.

--With the use of an MLS gasket, the standards for machining on the

head and block have been increased to insure that the gasket can seal

properly. This is to help prevent coolant from entering the oil

cavities causing damage to the engine.

----Jasper does not install the cam gear balancer due to a bulletin

from Chrysler effective 12/14/01 stating it is not needed and not

serviced from this time forward.

--DO NOT REMOVE FROM CORE AND INSTALL ON JASPER'S ENGINE.

Notes:

Product summary: Roller Tappets, Knock Sensor, Water Pump

Block casting: 4663611

Block casting location: RIGHT FRONT SIDE OF BLOCK

Head casting: 4663979ABJ 4663697AB

Head casting location: REAR OF HEADS

Production Date 2001-00

[Intrepidation]

Someone shoot me, seriously.

I got a call while at work at about 9pm...Jessica told me while she was pulling into the parking lot the car stalled, and then wouldn't start right away, then when it did start it stalled again. I had to leave work early to go to her work which is a half hour away. I get there, she tells me more about it.

I go to start it and it takes a couple seconds to start...it won't start right away. I turn it off and try again and it starts fine. She tells me I should go drive it around to see if it will do it for me....it has yet to stall on me...it's stalled on her a total of 4 times now. Before I go for a drive, I start the car and check the oil...and the dipstick is dry. When I turn the car off the dipstick reads full, as it should. I called Sity8 up and told him about it. He said it may be okay because it might mean the oil is moving around...but then why is it that when the Cobalt or even the Shadow are running the oil measures properly? I don't want to risk her driving it home and possibly hurting the engine more than it may be...so I have AAA tow it back...I just got home...I followed in the Cobalt.

I have no idea what's going on..I'm afraid it's being starved of oil, but I have no idea. I have to take it back to the mechanic tomorrow and tell him what happened...but who knows how far I'll get. I've got $115 in my pocket right now and that's it.

I dunno if if it's sludge and if it is if an engine flush will save the engine...I'm just so frustrated now.

First one car is totaled by an idiot who can't stop, and now the other may be dying. That leaves the rental and mom's Shadow. What the hell did we do to deserve this?

Oh, and on an unrelated note, one of our cats may have caner, and if so then she'll have to be put down on Wednesday if the medicine doesn't help

Life. Sucks. Hard. I. hate. the. world. (And Chrysler for making a piece of &#036;h&#33; V6 in an otherwise great car).

--

AxTheRed, If you happen to read this, I have a question for you. Does your dipstick show the proper oil level in your Intrepid when it's running?

Edited July 30, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Intrepidation]

The exact cause of the stalling is still a mystery, but there may be a partial reason. Apparently the clamp that keeps the air intake hose connected to the air filter was not secured...the screw was off. I think it may have been off since January, since that's when the battery was changed...I wasn't there that day but that is the only time I can think of that the air filter box was removed to get at the battery.

As for the noise, my normal mechanic listened to it, and thinks it may be early signs of a worn crankshaft bearing...in which case it means that it would be better to replace the engine than try to fix it. That being said, driven sanely (and kept out of Sixty8's hands) it should last several more years...by that time I should have the finances to get a nice new 3.2L for it.

The sound is very hard to hear, and he commented that it's the best sounding 2.7 he's ever heard.

--

In other news, teh Shadow cooked it's oil today...you could hear it bubbling after the car was off.

[Intrepidation]

Just make sure you keep an eye on the oil level or you'll be replacing the engine a whole lot sooner than expected. What ever happened to you buying Sixty8's Datsun, anyway?

He decided to put it on Craigslist instead, and then I lost interest after he apparently wanted to sell it for more money or whatever. Plus, I don't want to downgrade. It may be RWD and have a straight 6, but that doesn't make it nicer in my book

If the stalling stops now then I'll be happy, and just take care of it like I do already. As long as it lasts long enough for me to save for a 3.2 I'll be happy...of course the longer the better

I still love the car after it all...just not the engine in the bay.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Dodgefan

[76ChevyTrucker]

Hey dodge, I hate to say it, but the 3.2 and the 2.7 are the same family of engines, they're both essentially "throw away" engines as they are EXTREMELY labor intensive whenever you have to do anything to them. A timing set (timing chains, gears, and tensioners) SHOP COST is about $650, that's not walk-in customer cost, that's how much it costs a shop to buy the part. If I were you, I'd invest in a 3.5 since it is a different engine family and you run no risk of the problems of the 3.2 and 2.7. By the way, I don't know of many people that can drive on a "going out" main bearing for years... If I were you, I'd go and find a junkyard engine for relatively low mileage and do the proper swapping and call it a day.

[Intrepidation]

Hey dodge, I hate to say it, but the 3.2 and the 2.7 are the same family of engines, they're both essentially "throw away" engines as they are EXTREMELY labor intensive whenever you have to do anything to them. A timing set (timing chains, gears, and tensioners) SHOP COST is about $650, that's not walk-in customer cost, that's how much it costs a shop to buy the part. If I were you, I'd invest in a 3.5 since it is a different engine family and you run no risk of the problems of the 3.2 and 2.7. By the way, I don't know of many people that can drive on a "going out" main bearing for years... If I were you, I'd go and find a junkyard engine for relatively low mileage and do the proper swapping and call it a day.

A 3.5 does sound good...but I'm wondering...why does the 3.2 not have the same problems as the 2.7? Or does it but for some reason it's the 2.7 that gets all the attention?

Anyway, as an update, installed again tonight...this time I was there to see it happen while Jessica was driving. Basically, she was slowing down somewhat quickly for a turn, and it just died. No sputtering, hesitation or anything...it's like when you pull the plug on a light. Just died....then didn't want to start back up again right away. From what she tells me, this is the only scenario where it stalls...not cruising or accelerating...just coming to/about to stop. When I drove it home I tried to get it to do it and not once did it even seem like it wanted to stall...I don't get it.

[76ChevyTrucker]

Think fuel filter......thing fuel filter hard.... And the 2.7 just gets all the press, the 3.2 is just as much of a thow-away engine as the 2.7, its just that the 3.2s for some reason stay together a little better. Kinda like how the 4.6L Ford gets all the press for the breaking/leaking/plastic POS intake manifold, but the 5.4 has the same intake and gets hardly no press.... Heck, both engines have the same internal parts save for the pistons, unfortunately I know, I'm a parts guy.

Edited August 4, 2007 by 76ChevyTrucker

[Satty]

The 2.7 and 4.6 get more press because more of them have been sold, therefore more of them have turned into &#036;h&#33;piles that leave people screwed.

[Sixty8panther]

Sorry to hear you're STILL having problems D.F.

The Q45 had the exact same problem for a while

& I went to A.Z. bought a MAF off XP715 & threw

it in in about 8 minutes and that problem went

away. Set me back like $220 but it was still

better than paying $400 for the dealership to do

the same job and yet not use more than a basic

screwdriver and 5 minutes of effort. Now Marcia

can go f### herself if she has any more

problems w/ the Q45. She will not even let me

see Sofia these days so I wouldn't do anything

for her but laugh and tell her to get Nick to do it.

Sorry I have not had a chance to call you,

between work & my exr I've had my hands full,

went out do Denny's last night and that's as

exciting as my week has been. Broke as a joke.

You'll figure it out, keep your chin up.

[Intrepidation]

Cars and my family just aren't going well together lately.

First the Prizm

Then the Intrepid

and the Shadow cooked it's oil the other day.

[Sixty8panther]

and the Shadow cooked it's oil the other day.

What do you mean?

"cooked"?

Did you blow th motor due to low oil pressure?