Future of the Union

[greg_nate]

>>Oh no? How about the company INCREASING SEVERANCE PAY TO EXECS? >>Argue that one. "GREED" is incorrect. "GRAFT", is the proper description. There's a difference and fairly significant one. The former is an emotional appeal, very marxist in nature. The latter, is descriptive of the facts. >>Notice what's in bold? AGREEMENT! Again, "AGREEMENT" is an incorrect term as well. "COERCION" is the proper descriptor. Delphi/GM/Ford/DCX don't agree with any of the contracts. If they had it their way, there wouldn't be a contract. Both "sides" of this situation are to blame. There is corporate graft as well as union graft. It just so happens that foreign competition is kicking our butts, and no one wants to admit it. Toyota does it better, and for less. Period. But rather than accept the cold, stark reality of this statement, people are pointing fingers at one another. The days of the free lunch are over. Gone. For 40 years after WWII, America ran practically unopposed in the global market. Its just not that way anymore. We spread our influence all over the world, and now we are experiencing the repercussions of our influence. We taught everyone our game, and now they are beating us at our own game. greg

[razoredge]

So whats your "macro" ? sounds like such a "big" word. Ill try not to let it intimidate me. Is it something to do with "free trade" with 3rd world countrys that operate in early 1900 conditions in America ?

[razoredge]

That one is easy to argue, but once again you are not looking far enough into the problem.  The financial problems at Delphi are vast, it is the enormity of the problems that is causing the bankruptcy problem.  So what is a greater cause of those problems....Execs getting overpaid compared to their peers in other industries....or UAW workers getting more pay and benefits comapred to their peers?

I'm waiting for your responce to that.

[post="26018"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Something many are failing to recognize or accept is that the few of us here that are throwing opposition to all the blue collar hatred and Union hatred is we have not said the UAW are underpaid or dont have it good. We have been saying there are other important problems and neglects that led to this situation. You all just want to go stomping on the ants because the government let the hornets loose in the barn.

Myself Id like to see the entire economy turned upside down, maybe some of these once wealthy greedy bastards would start jumping out of windows. It would be a start anyhow. :lol: [cant wait for the responces to this one] :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, except for the interpretation of greed this post by greg nate seems to be one of the few that tried to recognize responsibility on all fronts.

[rkmdogs]

Your prejudice is not appreciated and will not be tolerated here on C&G.  Please try to keep the topic on hand on topic and if you have a point to get across…please do it in an appropriate way.

Thanks!

I think the pot is calling the kettle black, especially when it comes down to language that is appropriate! :o

[KillFort]

How ignorant can some of you possibly be? Why do so many of you want the Union to go, these companies to file bankruptcy? It's like all of you want the U.S. standard of living to deteriorate. All these people who make this much are big consumers and the middle class drives the U.S. economy. You invest in your workers, they turn around and invest back. How hard is this concept? If GM didn't waste it's billions on stupid decisions like robot automation while the Japanese invested in process improvement and their labor force, and wasting billions on Fiat ordeals, GM would have the money to have respected products, a great PR machine working, and still pay all of it's employees great wages while supporting the U.S. economy and standard of living. The U.S. is becoming one big sh*t pile, and it's like half of its citizens for some reason are rooting for it. Like it's the cool and trendy thing to do. As for the stupid "Take some classes at community college." That is the most retarded response I've ever seen. How will that help a damn thing when a person has been at a company 27 years goes and takes a few classes at a college. The f*cking line work is the same if they are educated or not. The problem is with the whole U.S. government's stance on trade policy, the greed, and politics of this country. And then just the pure ignorance of the U.S. citizens rooting for their own demise. We are #1 and we damn well be better doing everything we can to stay that way. Why do we want this country to become 3rd world just because other countries are right now? The policies and mentality in this country seem to rather have this country go down to other countries levels rather than stay above. Look at the media and how they always have to put negative spin on GM's products regardless of how good it is. This country is its own worst enemy. If I were to visit Japan right now, I bet I'd be hard pressed to find a citizen that roots for their own companies to fail. Do you hear any of them saying "I sure hope Sony and Toyota fails." They love their country and support it. F*ck this free trade policy. The only thing it's free for is the other countries. The U.S. pays. There is no such thing as free trade. Edited October 9, 2005 by KillFort

[Croc]

The companies are going to live on though...they just lose all the legacy costs. It's win/win for the companies, lose/lose for the unions.

[razoredge]

well done, what do ya know an American with some of that old fighten spirit. Direct and to the point without all the hidden agendas and mysterious alternative economys.

[Croc]

It's not win/win for the company. Declaring bankruptcy seroiusly screws up a companies credit. It's not like bankruptcy is an ace-in-the-hole solution to mismanagement.

[post="26069"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Only option for Delphi's survival though...

[CaddyXLR-V]

Only option for Delphi's survival though...

[post="26077"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And it will save GM 2 billion a year, and improve the quality of the parts. It will help GM make better cars. Which is better for the 95 percent of our workforce that is non-union, and get GM some more sales.

[Clownzilla]

How ignorant can some of you possibly be?

Why do so many of you want the Union to go, these companies to file bankruptcy?

It's like all of you want the U.S. standard of living to deteriorate.  All these people who make this much are big consumers and the middle class drives the U.S. economy.  You invest in your workers, they turn around and invest back.  How hard is this concept? 

If GM didn't waste it's billions on stupid decisions like robot automation while the Japanese invested in process improvement and their labor force, and wasting billions on Fiat ordeals, GM would have the money to have respected products, a great PR machine working, and still pay all of it's employees great wages while supporting the U.S. economy and standard of living. 

The U.S. is becoming one big sh*t pile, and it's like half of its citizens for some reason are rooting for it.  Like it's the cool and trendy thing to do.

As for the stupid "Take some classes at community college."  That is the most retarded response I've ever seen.  How will that help a damn thing when a person has been at a company 27 years goes and takes a few classes at a college.  The f*cking line work is the same if they are educated or not. 

The problem is with the whole U.S. government's stance on trade policy, the greed, and politics of this country.  And then just the pure ignorance of the U.S. citizens rooting for their own demise.  We are #1 and we damn well be better doing everything we can to stay that way.  Why do we want this country to become 3rd world just because other countries are right now?  The policies and mentality in this country seem to rather have this country go down to other countries levels rather than stay above.  Look at the media and how they always have to put negative spin on GM's products regardless of how good it is.  This country is its own worst enemy. 

If I were to visit Japan right now, I bet I'd be hard pressed to find a citizen that roots for their own companies to fail.  Do you hear any of them saying "I sure hope Sony and Toyota fails."  They love their country and support it.

F*ck this free trade policy.  The only thing it's free for is the other countries.  The U.S. pays.  There is no such thing as free trade.

[post="26064"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There are MANY non-union, hard working people that buy vehicles. Right now, the questions is not "How many union vehicle sells are we going to lose if union members lose their jobs" but "How many non-union sells are we losing to Japan, Korea, Germany, etc NOW.. I think the latter is more important. When (not if, but when) GM, Ford, and DCX leaves the USA to build vehicles in other countries, union workers
will have to go to other lines of work to survive. Face it, the USA is going to become a service, inovation, and information economy. We will have to leave factory work to other countries (somthing Japan and Korea will have to face eventually too). Union factory workers will have to adjust, and find non-factory jobs. Many of us love the USA, but we realize if we want to keep our NON FACTORY jobs, we can't let the "fat cat" factory union members dictate our fate. Many non-union members have adjusted, now it's the unions turn.

[VenSeattle]

Many of us are not rooting for the collapse of our own American bred companies. A lot of the opinions expressed here are of a desire for change in what is felt to be a flawed and unhealthy way of doing business. Many here feel that the UAW was a necessity at one point and served Americans well. Unfortunately, its existence is now handicapping the companies involved instead of helping them.

I personally fail to see the "we're in this together" mentality that the UAW & corporations are suppose to have. The "executives" are supposedly in charge of managing the company but have been told by the UAW time and time again "not to look our way" for flexibility.

GM has looked in other areas to trim costs. GM has already cut American white collar/salaried jobs by 33% since 2000. GM is also trying to reduce its purchasing costs by 20% over the next 3 years. Some executives are not receiving salaries. GM has to be allowed to maintain efficiency in all areas to survive competitively. Not all those white collar jobs would have been cut and suppliers would not be under such cost scrutiny if GM was able to cut costs more evenly across the company.

Unfortunately, the UAW prevents GM from being able to run plants as efficiently as possible:

• When there's nothing to build, the UAW members are paid.
• When jobs should be reduced and automation implemented, it's not.
• When plants need to be closed, GM has to find places for those UAW members or they go into a job bank… instead of receiving severances.
• When GM needs to trim benefits, they can only do so (and have done so) on the white collar/ salaried side. They can not reduce benefits of a UAW member.
• Most of all UAW jobs allowed to be cut have been through natural attrition/early retirement which results in the UAW members still receiving full retirement benefits.

Sacrifices have been made: by suppliers, by executives, and by the white collar/salaried workers.

[goblue1999]

But Croc, we still do not know who is making what.  I am pretty sure the people netting ~65hr or above are skilled and senior.  Of course the company is going to make their situation seem as worse as possible.  This bankruptcy is a BS if you ask me because clearly Delphi is NOT insolvent.  If an entity is NOT insolvent it should not be able to get the benefits of bankruptcy.

[post="25628"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What part of bankrupt don't you understand??

[goblue1999]

There are MANY non-union, hard working people that buy vehicles. Right now, the questions is not "How many union vehicle sells are we going to lose if union members lose their jobs" but "How many non-union sells are we losing to Japan, Korea, Germany, etc NOW.. I think the latter is more important. When (not if, but when) GM, Ford, and DCX leaves the USA to build vehicles in other countries, union workers
will have to go to other lines of work to survive. Face it, the USA is going to become a service, inovation, and information economy. We will have to leave factory work to other countries (somthing Japan and Korea will have to face eventually too). Union factory workers will have to adjust, and find non-factory jobs. Many of us love the USA, but we realize if we want to keep our NON FACTORY jobs, we can't let the "fat cat" factory union members dictate our fate. Many non-union members have adjusted, now it's the unions turn.

[post="26097"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Excellent post. You are absolutely right about the need to chase the non-union sales that are going to bmw, toyota, honda and the like.

The doomsayers act like a nation's economy has never turned over before. Maybe they don't read, maybe they have never taken an econ. course on the company's dime, instead opting for web surfing and yoga. Hundreds of years ago, Americans all farmed, no one made cars. Some day, no one will make cars and we will all do something else. All of us, that is, that adapt to the times, and don't sit fat and happy with a "guaranteed" job. Edited October 9, 2005 by goblue1999

[goblue1999]

How ignorant can some of you possibly be?

Why do so many of you want the Union to go, these companies to file bankruptcy?

It's like all of you want the U.S. standard of living to deteriorate.  All these people who make this much are big consumers and the middle class drives the U.S. economy.  You invest in your workers, they turn around and invest back.  How hard is this concept? 

If GM didn't waste it's billions on stupid decisions like robot automation while the Japanese invested in process improvement and their labor force, and wasting billions on Fiat ordeals, GM would have the money to have respected products, a great PR machine working, and still pay all of it's employees great wages while supporting the U.S. economy and standard of living. 

The U.S. is becoming one big sh*t pile, and it's like half of its citizens for some reason are rooting for it.  Like it's the cool and trendy thing to do.

As for the stupid "Take some classes at community college."  That is the most retarded response I've ever seen.  How will that help a damn thing when a person has been at a company 27 years goes and takes a few classes at a college.  The f*cking line work is the same if they are educated or not. 

The problem is with the whole U.S. government's stance on trade policy, the greed, and politics of this country.  And then just the pure ignorance of the U.S. citizens rooting for their own demise.  We are #1 and we damn well be better doing everything we can to stay that way.  Why do we want this country to become 3rd world just because other countries are right now?  The policies and mentality in this country seem to rather have this country go down to other countries levels rather than stay above.  Look at the media and how they always have to put negative spin on GM's products regardless of how good it is.  This country is its own worst enemy. 

If I were to visit Japan right now, I bet I'd be hard pressed to find a citizen that roots for their own companies to fail.  Do you hear any of them saying "I sure hope Sony and Toyota fails."  They love their country and support it.

F*ck this free trade policy.  The only thing it's free for is the other countries.  The U.S. pays.  There is no such thing as free trade.

[post="26064"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You are off the mark. Those that post against the union on this site don't want America to fail, rather just the opposite. Most right minded folk see the Union as ANTI-AMERICAN, damn near socialist. The hard working non-union folks, the ones that swim or sink on their own merit, are sick and tired of seeing unskilled laborers raking in the kind of money that normal people need 6 years of college to earn. The UAW was able to suspend the laws of economics, from their end only. While enforcing this above-market wage, the companies that agreed to it are going down the tubes. The parasite is definitely killing the host!

[Ghost Dog]

You are off the mark.  Those that post against the union on this site don't want America to fail, rather just the opposite.  Most right minded folk see the Union as ANTI-AMERICAN, damn near socialist.  The hard working non-union folks, the ones that swim or sink on their own merit, are sick and tired of seeing unskilled laborers raking in the kind of money that normal people need 6 years of college to earn.  The UAW was able to suspend the laws of economics, from their end only.  While enforcing this above-market wage, the companies that agreed to it are going down the tubes.  The parasite is definitely killing the host!

[post="26114"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That post just reeks of Jealousy. Sorry but these "unskilled laborers" deserve the same for the time and effort from thier life. As the would be "I've been to college Elite"

And if thats Socialism so be it. Capitalism is condemned by God. Edited October 9, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[KillFort]

A service economy? When the factories go, so do many of the salaried "degree" jobs. Engineering, you won't need that in a service economy I guess. I know this is a difficult connection to make with some of you. Oh well, when all the Union people lose their jobs, they will know who to rob first. It will be the so called "jealous" degree-holding people--the white collared workers. And if they run out of food, the poor folk can just cannalibize their bodies. You know the rich will taste good because they have been living high on the hog this whole time. Ever see a whole state look like Flint, MI? Ever see a whole country look like Flint, MI? Soon enough. Edited October 10, 2005 by KillFort

[CaddyXLR-V]

Oh what did all the farmers do when they were not needed anymore. Now less than 1 percent of the population can feed the whole country and more. Freeing the rest of us to do/make other things. The companies they work for cant support it. The unions should be lobbying congress to fix healthcare instead of striking against the companies that pay them, and draining them of their profits and ability to compete.

[VenSeattle]

This conversation/discussion/debate has just seriously degraded beyond belief in the last few posts...

And if thats Socialism so be it. Capitalism is condemned by God.

[post="26123"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

heh... If you're following the New Testament:

No one is entitled to salvation. Only those who endure to the end will receive it.
Even God endorses the expulsion of those unworthy. Jews were not individually condemned but their birth right to salvation was. Jews are still eligible, but have to reapply and accept the new principles outlined in the Greek Scriptures. :P

(I'm not condemning the Jewish religion or Jewish beliefs at all... I'm strictly looking at it from a New testament perspective)

A service economy? 

When the factories go, so do many of the salaried "degree" jobs.  Engineering, you won't need that in a service economy I guess.

Oh well, when all the Union people lose their jobs, they will know who to rob first.  It will be the jealous degree-holding people--the greedy CEOs and executives who just boosted their severence packages. And if they run out of food, the poor folk can just cannalibize their bodies.  You know the rich will taste good because they have been living high on the hog this whole time.

[post="26157"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

All the plants won't be gone. It is not a requirement for plants to only be employed by Unionized people. Several current unionized members will still have jobs available, but I seriously doubt they'll be available under a Union contract.

[daves87rs]

Ding dong the union's dead, the union's dead, the union's dead, ding dong the wicked union's dead..

[post="26172"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:blink: :rolleyes: :lol:

[Croc]

AH-HA is my hero

[daves87rs]

Excellent post.  You are absolutely right about the need to chase the non-union sales that are going to bmw, toyota, honda and the like.

The doomsayers act like a nation's economy has never turned over before.  Maybe they don't read, maybe they have never taken an econ. course on the company's dime, instead opting for web surfing and yoga.  Hundreds of years ago, Americans all farmed, no one made cars.  Some day, no one will make cars and we will all do something else.  All of us, that is, that adapt to the times, and don't sit fat and happy with a "guaranteed" job.

[post="26113"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Very good point, goblue. Times do change.

It does make a hard sell to those who don't have much of an econ background.

It is very hard for some to make a change, and to make that choice fast in
order for one to survive. Then again, some are just stubborn.

Though I the other hand, I can see where Josh is coming from. You do want
to have some balance job-wise, to give people some choice.

But it doesn't work like that. You either accept the changes, adapt, or you will
just get left behind. :(

[daves87rs]

There are MANY non-union, hard working people that buy vehicles. Right now, the questions is not "How many union vehicle sells are we going to lose if union members lose their jobs" but "How many non-union sells are we losing to Japan, Korea, Germany, etc NOW.. I think the latter is more important. When (not if, but when) GM, Ford, and DCX leaves the USA to build vehicles in other countries, union workers
will have to go to other lines of work to survive. Face it, the USA is going to become a service, inovation, and information economy. We will have to leave factory work to other countries (somthing Japan and Korea will have to face eventually too). Union factory workers will have to adjust, and find non-factory jobs. Many of us love the USA, but we realize if we want to keep our NON FACTORY jobs, we can't let the "fat cat" factory union members dictate our fate. Many non-union members have adjusted, now it's the unions turn.

[post="26097"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Again, good insight.

Though I wouldn't call them "fat cat", more of a "long outdated"

[daves87rs]

AH-HA is my hero

[post="26235"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your hero? sounds like you and I are going to fight there, buddy... :P :lol:

[daves87rs]

Just to tackle a few issues:

"This is not about greed of a big company.."

Oh no? How about the company INCREASING SEVERANCE PAY TO EXECS? Argue that one.

"When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company…"

The company will not survive in my eyes. They are based in Troy. The company will literally "burn to the ground" if anything goes through. Not to say I support it....but if hundreds of thousands retiree's pentions are jacked with.....good luck.

Won't happen.

Delphi will have to keep paying those and the hourly wages under the current agreement.

Notice what's in bold? AGREEMENT!

Last but most certainly not least, the Editor of "Future Of The Union" for commenting on this web-site/forum.

It's very well appreciated and well known that you read what we, as AMERICANS feel on this issue!

As the Editor, I commend you.

[post="25921"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That's tough to say Josh.

Agreement or not-Anything can happen.

You only have to look at Northwest to get an idea what a mess this can be.

[bdubsee]

It's not win/win for the company. Declaring bankruptcy seroiusly screws up a companies credit. It's not like bankruptcy is an ace-in-the-hole solution to mismanagement.

[post="26069"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually, while declaring bankruptcy impairs the credit of individuals, corporations enjoy improved credit. Think back to K-mart. Once they declared bankruptcy, a number of financing sources materialized because the company had been relieved of legacy obligations as a debtor-in-possession. The filing will allow Delphi to secure new lines of credit that will keep it liquid until a reoganization plan is approved by the bankruptcy court.

[SimonDavid]

On the other hand, GM estimates that it currently pays a purchase price premium to Delphi in the aggregate of approximately $2 billion a year above globally competitive market prices for systems, components and parts purchased from Delphi's North American operations. GM believes that a restructuring of Delphi through the Chapter 11 process provides GM with an opportunity to reduce or eliminate that purchase price premium, over time, as well as improve the quality of systems, components and parts it procures

This is the key issue - GM pays a price premium of 2 billion a year in North America alone. This is the cost of 25 $/hour base wages and not being able to layoff UAW members.

And that is just for Delphi - surely the UAW "tax" within GM's own business must be twice that.

So that's 6 billion a year. Removing that tax is the real answer to GM's problems - it's more important than new product, better marketing or eliminating a brand.

I am surprised GM got away with it for so long. But, however they managed it, those days are over.

[Ghost Dog]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051010/1052668.asp

Worker foresees strike

Young said concessions at supplier plants are part of a growing pattern that UAW members need to confront during Delphi's restructuring.

"I think Delphi workers probably have no choice but to strike," she said. "The corporation has filed bankruptcy, and they've kind of drawn the line in the sand about what they're willing to do. It seems to me that any negotiation between our leadership and Delphi will not be very productive."

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/conte..._5351_pi010.htm

We do not expect Delphi's bankruptcy filing to disrupt its auto parts supplied to General Motors in the near term. But given the dramatic salary and benefit cuts that Delphi seeks from its unionized employees, we see the potential for a disruptive strike in the future.

Edited October 10, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[motownr]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051010/1052668.asp
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/conte..._5351_pi010.htm

[post="26584"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's almost tragic to hear such self-destructive comments. Didn't anybody at the UAW learn ANYTHING from the NWA strike?

I think there will be massive picket-line crossing if there are walkouts. Tons of people would die for jobs like these, bankruptcy or not.

Plus, the unions are going to find that the public is not on their side on this matter one iota. They've lost the PR battle, they've lost the legal battle, all they have left is their jobs. It would be sad to watch them give those away as well.

[Ghost Dog]

It's almost tragic to hear such self-destructive comments.  Didn't anybody at the UAW learn ANYTHING from the NWA strike? 

I think there will be massive picket-line crossing if there are walkouts.  Tons of people would die for jobs like these, bankruptcy or not. 

Plus, the unions are going to find that the public is not on their side on this matter one iota.  They've lost the PR battle, they've lost the legal battle, all they have left is their jobs.  It would be sad to watch them give those away as well.

[post="26636"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yeah those would be ten dollar an hour jobs. They should strike. They can't lose anymore then what Delphi is trying to dictate.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Yeah those would be ten dollar an hour jobs.  They should strike.  They can't lose anymore then what Delphi is trying to dictate.

[post="26646"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

$10 an hour is still more than 0 an hour. So I would say they can lose more.

[Ghost Dog]

$10 an hour is still more than 0 an hour. So I would say they can lose more.

[post="26673"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ah but Delphi has already promised that a good portion, are going to lose thier jobs anyway.


The best outcome for the workforce, will come only if the workforce empowers itself through action.

[red]

Who's to blame? Both the Delphi and the UAW have made several critical errors leading up to this drastic situation. These errors are of no surprise, we've heard them all before: be it management's "giving in" in the 80s, the poor product decisions in the 90s, and UAW's increasing demands at every contract negotation. However, as the economic enviroment fluctuates, both parties must respond to this change. IMO, the UAW has still been partying like its "1999." The Unions' failure to work together with its partner has led to this drastic measure, plain and simple. The excessive benefits and lofty wages - a mistake by management in the first place - must go. For in the forseeable future, workers in Asia and Mexico will continue to be paid in lump sums of lent and the occasional monetary coin. The UAW needs to realize these competitive disadvantages that exist in today's marketplace. With that being said, the cuts proposed by Delphi are completely reasonable. Workers are still paid a large amount for simple line work, the benefits are there, the vacation is still better than that of a college graduates'.

[razoredge]

$10 an hour is still more than 0 an hour. So I would say they can lose more.

[post="26673"][/post]

Words well spoken by someone with lots of experience in the real world

:lol:

[Cory Wolfe]

Hey... that's still more than my parents. So.. I say they can afford to lose more. :D Also... Yay... this is my first post in this thread.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Words well spoken by someone with lots of experience in the real world

:lol:

[post="26736"][/post]

Are you mad because if I lose my job today I can go find another tomorrow making roughly the same pay? I guess I dont live in your real world where everyone is entitled to $100,000 and inflation rates of 30%. If I want to get paid more I'll earn it, not get a group together to force my employer to pay for it. You ever hear of efficiency? What kind of business were you running over there? Pay people more for less output?

[razoredge]

Are you mad because if I lose my job today I can go find another tomorrow making roughly the same pay? I guess I dont live in your real world where everyone is entitled to $100,000 and inflation rates of 30%. If I want to get paid more I'll earn it, not get a group together to force my employer to pay for it. You ever hear of efficiency? What kind of business were you running over there? Pay people more for less output?

[post="26797"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Once again WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ?

I guess I dont live in your real world where everyone is entitled to $100,000 and inflation rates of 30%

This is my world ? What ? In fact whose world ? Jeeze

What kind of business were you running over there?

What ?

Are you mad because if I lose my job today I can go find another tomorrow making roughly the same pay?

What ? So can I and have I, are you loosing information here or what ?

I have a problem with the suggestion that anyone can survive in this country at 10-12 dollars an hour, if you have a problem with me knowing that you better keep it inside and not try to turn some kind of spin on me because Ive got enough stature to stand up and say bullshit. Long ways between 400 dollars a week gross and that hundred grand 30% your spinnin.

[daves87rs]

Die topic! DIE! :angry: <_< :P :lol: