Future of the Union

[Hey Now]

Its my understanding that GM is locked in to helping Delphi either way due to the GM-Delphi spinoff contract which was good through 2007. I think GM's going pay a bunch of $ regardless of the Delphi-UAW outcome. With Delphi supplying a ton of parts, GM will pay to keep them producing parts so they can keep producing vehicles, so they can make money, especially with the new high profit trucks coming. I too, think the UAW is going to have to give up something big to Delphi this time around, I don't think they want to press their luck with bankruptcy court. And giving up something big to Delphi, means giving up something to the Big 2.5 in 2007 talks. Edited October 8, 2005 by Hey Now

[Guest Josh]

If the Union agreed to these give backs today that would set the precedent to the talks in '07. If Delphi files for bankruptcy and the Union took them to court over wages, cost, etc the case would take more than a year and a half. The Union would give nothing up. It would not set any precedent if they let them go bankrupt as there would be no ruling/outcome for the General to fall back on.

[Hey Now]

But does the UAW want to gamble that a lawsuit would take a year and a half? Not sure the intricies of Bankruptcy Court, but 1.5 years seems like a long time, thought most plans for restructure were approved by the courts quickly.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If the Union agreed to these give backs today that would set the precedent to the talks in '07.

If Delphi files for bankruptcy and the Union took them to court over wages, cost, etc the case would take more than a year and a half.

The Union would give nothing up. It would not set any precedent if they let them go bankrupt as there would be no ruling/outcome for the General to fall back on.

[post="25419"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If this does end up costing GM 8 billion as some estimates show, the Union will be facing a similar, but much bigger situation in 2007. I would really like to see the Union back down, instead of giving up hundreds of thousands of pensions/jobs/benefits when GM cant support them anymore. The question is, do you want to keep some of what was faught for, or none? I dont see any possible way they will keep all. Edited October 8, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[Guest Josh]

Delta just got out of bankrupcty and that was due to sale to a competing airline. Delphi may provide a restructure plan but if the attorneys have their way, it will take quite sometime before anything is approved. Plus keep in mind the Union could attack the company in bankruptcy court with their latest move. Increasing the severance pay of execs that are either forced out, or leave on their own with a "good reason." The increase came because Delphi said their current pay structure was "not competitive." How's that for a news story just before Chapter 11?

[goblue1999]

It's called mismanagement. Take these damn seat holders/board folk accountable for what they do and say and run with it. If they can't get the job done (READ; WAGONER) then get their asses out of the f&*cking seat.

I'm so sick of hearing about the Unions and what SHOULD be done or should have BEEN done to what is going on now.

Fiat got BILLIONS earlier this year...and it seems as if Delphi will too......all on Wagoner’s watch. Hold these God Damn (Yes I said it!) CEO's accountable for their actions and go from there.

Change has to happen at the top. Why does the Union get charged for the process they build a vehicle in, and under what materials they build it under which is HANDED DOWN from the management staff?

Unbelievable!

This "movement" of non-Union workers will cause this site to close from non-functionality nor payment. It's ridiculous!

[post="25085"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

there is no question that Wagoner's "leadership" has been a major disappointment. You and I may disagree, however, on his greatest shortcoming. His ill-conceived alliances have cost the company dearly, in lost time and lost capital. But his greatest shortcoming is in not standing up to the union and forcing this uncompetitiveness issue sooner.

You can talk all you want about autoworkers having it badly, but you are off by a mile. Based on the marketable skills of the vast majority of those under the UAW banner, they are paid at least 200% more than their market value, in some cases closer to 250 or 300% . Those high wages, in and of themselves, are not enough to sink Delphi, or GM. Put them in combination with the legacy costs of pension and retiree healthcare, and add to it the wasteful health-care consumption by current employees (see Viagara, et. al.) the high absenteeism rates and the obscenely expensive "guaranteed employement" (read Jobs bank) and you have a recipe for bankruptcy.

Wagoner, and Zarella before him, have done GM stakeholders no favors, and he should be broomed aside. In fact, if the Union has a collective brain, they would absolutely require that he be gone, as a precondition to any concessions that they make.

Union representation simply places too much resistance to the flexibility and change that competitive organizations need in order to compete globally. You need to look no further than any market share or earnings plot of those companies and industries that use Union employees. A nearly straight downward path since the late 70s, with the occasional up blip driven by overwhelming demographic forces that are waning with passing of the boomer generation. Nothing but downhill from here, while non-Union companies (like Toyota and Wal-Mart) rake in the cash, further burying the Union firms.

Wagoner doesn't have the guts to stand up to the union, he should go. It won't do any good for the union to come to the table, they are going extinct either way. Unfortunately, they will probably take GM and Delphi down with them. Edited October 8, 2005 by goblue1999

[Hey Now]

Getting out of bankruptcy is one thing, having an approved plan (i.e. approval to close plants) is a much quicker process from my understanding. United Airlines had filed their restructuring plan within a month including slashing workers salaries, benefits, and pensions.

[sciguy_0504]

Wow this thread got long in such a short time. The following is unrelated but I feel the need to relate it anyway. The local teacher's union voted to authorize a strike (no date has been set yet) because they don't want to pay 9% of their health care premiums. Under the previous contract they didn't pay anything. Using my family as an example, our health care premium is $500 a month (family, NOT a single person). So these teachers are telling me they can't afford to pay less than $50 a month to help out the district? Taxes were raised by a good margin last year because a few schools needed to be redone. I graduated last year and the high school needed to be redone. So it all comes down to less than $50 a month? Amazing. Here's the solution: let them strike for 2 weeks (longest teachers can in PA), don't pay them, don't pay their benefits, fire the old teachers making $80,000 a year and hire young teachers who make $40,000 and force them to accept the proposed contract.

[Guest Josh]

In the same sense...lots could be done to prevent anything from happening. The Union has a say (per the latest contract) in what happens to the company. Just a little tid bit of information: With the latest agreement General Motors allowed the UAW to have a representative sit in on every meeting that happened. Regarding approving a vehicle from the design process, etc. While I don't know if the suppliers (read: Delphi) agreed to the same, it could make for some interesting happenings in court. I was worried about it going to bankruptcy court as early as today, however as I read over more and more of the contract I'm confident in the Unions abilities to secure their workers rights.

[goblue1999]

Delta just got out of bankrupcty and that was due to sale to a competing airline. Delphi may provide a restructure plan but if the attorneys have their way, it will take quite sometime before anything is approved.

Plus keep in mind the Union could attack the company in bankruptcy court with their latest move. Increasing the severance pay of execs that are either forced out, or leave on their own with a "good reason." The increase came because Delphi said their current pay structure was "not competitive."

How's that for a news story just before Chapter 11?

[post="25423"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree that the Corporate Officers are just lining their pockets on this one, it wasn't enough that they would get 12 months pay (880K to 1M) for leaving with good cause. The board is the group that is approving this, and they are accountable to the shareholders.

Honestly, if the UAW wants to have any future, they may have to become shareholders, via employee buyouts. The union, and its members, need to take ownership of a company, like Delphi, and clean house. They could then run the company with a profit motive, and see the ramifications of their contract provisions. It could be quite an eye opener for them, and we could finally expect to stop hearing them whine about "the man" opressing them.

[evok]

In the same sense...lots could be done to prevent anything from happening. The Union has a say (per the latest contract) in what happens to the company.

Just a little tid bit of information: With the latest agreement General Motors allowed the UAW to have a representative sit in on every meeting that happened. Regarding approving a vehicle from the design process, etc.

While I don't know if the suppliers (read: Delphi) agreed to the same, it could make for some interesting happenings in court.

I was worried about it going to bankruptcy court as early as today, however as I read over more and more of the contract I'm confident in the Unions abilities to secure their workers rights.

[post="25433"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Post the contract.

[goblue1999]

Wow this thread got long in such a short time.  The following is unrelated but I feel the need to relate it anyway.

The local teacher's union voted to authorize a strike (no date has been set yet) because they don't want to pay 9% of their health care premiums.  Under the previous contract they didn't pay anything.

Using my family as an example, our health care premium is $500 a month (family, NOT a single person).  So these teachers are telling me they can't afford to pay less than $50 a month to help out the district?  Taxes were raised by a good margin last year because a few schools needed to be redone.  I graduated last year and the high school needed to be redone.

So it all comes down to less than $50 a month?  Amazing.  Here's the solution:  let them strike for 2 weeks (longest teachers can in PA), don't pay them, don't pay their benefits, fire the old teachers making $80,000 a year and hire young teachers who make $40,000 and force them to accept the proposed contract.

[post="25432"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It is illegal for teachers to strike in Michigan, it seems to have made the teachers more agreeable at the bargaining table. What do they want, they are de-facto government employees. If they want the big money, go into the private sector, better yet, work for yourself.

[goblue1999]

In the same sense...lots could be done to prevent anything from happening. The Union has a say (per the latest contract) in what happens to the company.

Just a little tid bit of information: With the latest agreement General Motors allowed the UAW to have a representative sit in on every meeting that happened. Regarding approving a vehicle from the design process, etc.

While I don't know if the suppliers (read: Delphi) agreed to the same, it could make for some interesting happenings in court.

I was worried about it going to bankruptcy court as early as today, however as I read over more and more of the contract I'm confident in the Unions abilities to secure their workers rights.

[post="25433"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Just as the mechanics were sure they wouldn't lose their jobs at NW. Very naive position to take. This is for real. The judge can simply allow Delphi to throw out the contract, slash jobs permanently, change the wage and benefit scale unilaterally, throw away the pension.....all bets are off in Chapter 11.

[goblue1999]

I said what I meant, its just way beyond of any surface mud puddle you could comprehend. Back off !

[post="25295"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Clearly, what has gone around, has come your way, and then some. Enjoy the dung pie.

[goblue1999]

OK, lets go back. What is this ? OK ? I see ?

So now that youve been dishonest as to your origional intentions of repling to my simple post. Suppose you break down the sentences of said post and explain to me what was so mind boggling about them.

You intended no rebuttal, just degredation and looking to start trouble. Theres nothing to rebutt anyhow. It was simple statements as to the outcome of this particular problem and stated that all others will feel this same bite within their lifetime most likely again for many of us. You can like this "new" "changed" way if you like. I choose not to.

So hows about you back off !

[post="25327"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

For a guy who had already said all he cared to say............you have said quite a bit more.

You're kinda funny, please continue...

[goblue1999]

Source: Delphi to file Ch. 11 Saturday Board set to meet Saturday morning to make final decision, source says. get a load of that Josh.

[Hey Now]

Post the contract.

[post="25435"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm thinking the same thing. If I have a credit card, I've entered into a contract to pay the balance plus X% interest every month. If I declare bankruptcy, that contract is voided because my debt exceeds my income. Although this is a simplified example, I think the same thing applies here. The airlines had union contracts and they cut major things that were "guranteed" in the contracts, why would the auto business be any different?

[Hey Now]

From Bloomberg News:
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1...id=aO_secpM2RQk

"Sept. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Anyone who thinks Steve Miller, Delphi Corp.'s chief executive, will try to pull off a last- second miracle so his company can avoid bankruptcy at any cost ought to reconsider.

Signs are accumulating that suggest the biggest U.S. auto- parts supplier -- spun off from General Motors Corp. in 1999 -- is moving closer to a Chapter 11 filing by mid-October, and perhaps any day.

Delphi has had cumulative net losses of $5.7 billion over the past four quarters, capping a dismal run in which it lost money in three out of the past four years. Standard & Poor's CCC-credit rating on Delphi's 6.5 percent bonds due 2009 is nine rungs below investment grade. And Delphi shares have fallen about 50 percent since mid-August, closing at $3.48 yesterday.

The reason for the losses is simple: In the midst of strong consumer demand for vehicles, Delphi's costs, particularly for labor in the U.S., are out of whack because of union contracts that pay workers and retirees some of the world's most generous health-care, pension and other benefits.

While bankruptcy would inflict plenty of pain, it might also set in motion a series of events that lead to a restructuring of other auto-parts suppliers, as well as GM and Ford Motor Co. A judge could void labor contracts, and eventually Delphi might even terminate its pension plan -- forcing competitors to seek similar concessions or face bankruptcy. "

[Hogans_Heroes]

Folks:  You are witnessing history.  This may be the biggest systemic restructuring of the cost structure in the history of the US auto biz if Delphi doesn't flinch.

[post="25406"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It doesn't appear that Delphi will flinch.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/051007/autos_delph...uptcy.html?.v=3

Sources indicate Delphi will file for bankruptcy in a New York court TOMORROW!

Reuters
Delphi set to file for Ch. 11-source

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Delphi Corp. (NYSE:DPH - News) is expected to file for bankruptcy in a New York court on Saturday, a source familiar with the situation said on Friday.

The board of the Troy, Michigan-based company is set to meet on Saturday morning to make the final decision on filing for bankruptcy, the source said.

A Delphi spokeswoman declined to comment.

Delphi, succumbing to high wage and benefit costs inherited from former parent General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - News), has lined up debtor-in-possession financing from a consortium of banks led by Citigroup Inc (NYSE:C - News) and JPMorgan Chase & Co. (NYSE:JPM - News)

Delphi has a number of large foreign units, but those subsidiaries are not expected to be part of the bankruptcy filing, the source said.

Delphi is represented by Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom and Shearman & Sterling, while General Motors -- which is by far Delphi's largest customer -- is represented by Weil, Gotshal & Manges.

The auto parts maker is not cash-strapped but is filing to take advantage of current, more lenient, bankruptcy rules, which are set to change on October 17, making reorganizations more challenging.

It is also filing to pressure its unions to come up with wage concessions.

Delphi's stock, which has traded above $9 during the last 12 months, fell $1.08 to close at $1.12 on the New York Stock Exchange on Friday amid concerns the company may be unable to reach a deal with GM and its unions to avert a bankruptcy filing.

Delphi, which has struggled since its spinoff in 1999, had said it needed help from GM and the United Auto Workers to restructure money-losing operations or it would consider a Chapter 11 filing covering its U.S. units.

A Delphi bankruptcy would be among the 15 largest since 1980, according to the BankruptcyData.com Web site, based on total assets of about $16.6 billion at the end of 2004. Delphi had revenue of $28.6 billion in 2004, including $12.7 billion from GM in North America.

Delphi in June hired turnaround specialist Steve Miller as chief executive and chairman with the aim to restructure outside bankruptcy. Miller previously was nonexecutive chairman at bankrupt auto parts maker Federal-Mogul Corp. (OTC BB:FDMLQ.OB - News) and chief executive of Bethlehem Steel.

Miller had said changes in U.S. bankruptcy laws effective October 17 would be a consideration in whether it filed for court protection. The changes restrict how much time a debtor has sole control over a reorganization and its retention of executives.

Several months ago, Delphi hired Rothschild Inc. as a strategic adviser and Skadden, Arps partner Jack Butler for legal advice. Butler served as lead counsel to Kmart during the retailer's reorganization.

Delphi posted net losses of $741 million in the first half of 2005, weighed down by high wage and benefit costs inherited from GM and the automaker's production cuts in sport utility vehicles and other slow-moving models.

Delphi had about 185,200 employees worldwide at the end of 2004, including 37,300 salaried and 147,900 hourly workers. Nearly 75 percent of hourly workers were union-represented, including 25,200 by the UAW.

Delphi's UAW contract runs through September 2007. Under a supplemental agreement in 2004, Delphi is allowed to pay new hires lower wages and benefits, but industry conditions have left no meaningful hires under the program.

Delphi wants to eliminate a jobs bank that includes 4,000 idle UAW workers, trim its work force beyond that and cut wages and benefit rates to a supplier level. The UAW has asked GM to take back up to 7,000 Delphi workers.

The auto parts supplier restated financial results for 2001 through 2004 after an internal probe into accounting improprieties that forced out its chief financial officer and five other executives.

Ford Motor Co. (NYSE:F - News) recently completed a bailout of its former parts unit, Visteon Corp. (NYSE:VC - News), taking back plants and other facilities and union workers. Most of the facilities will be prepped and sold.

[lanky9172]

I just think that people have no idea how big this is and how disasterious this is to the entire business, to every working persons rights, Union or not.

If the UAW gives in to these ridiculous demands they would be giving back everything our grandparents fought for, literally fought for over the years. Only to have a sharp decline in profits due to piss poor management cause the company bankruptcy?

How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the line.

How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and applaud for a final action being taken.

In the mean time there's been a mission to destory all things Unions and worker rights. Almost done, airlines were the latest, auto's are the next.

[post="25246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Dude, how can you say that??? I am a young guy in the finance biz and I know (because I have already had to deal with this) that union workers are some of the richest people in the country! But you wouldn't know that by looking at them...why? They don't save, they don't plan, and they just don't...where does the money go? Who the heck knows...but I agree with one of the earlier statements...no one cried for others in the work force when they were fired after being with a company for years. Again, as stated earlier, there is no RIGHT to a job or job security. There is no RIGHT to ANYTHING but what is outlined in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. People's lives are at stake here is what you said...if they are living at the bottom of the food chain NOW with some of the BEST PAY and the BEST BENEFITS in the land and can't survive, then wouldn't you say that's just survival of the fittest? Social Darwinism, gotta love it. But I'm sure Josh you will think with your heart instead of your head. Not a bad thing to do, but this is reality, NOT the "Feel Good Club".

[evok]

It doesn't appear that Delphi will flinch.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/051007/autos_delph...uptcy.html?.v=3

Sources indicate Delphi will file for bankruptcy in a New York court TOMORROW!

Reuters
Delphi set to file for Ch. 11-source

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Delphi Corp. (NYSE:DPH - News) is expected to file for bankruptcy in a New York court on Saturday, a source familiar with the situation said on Friday.

The board of the Troy, Michigan-based company is set to meet on Saturday morning to make the final decision on filing for bankruptcy, the source said.

A Delphi spokeswoman declined to comment.

Delphi, succumbing to high wage and benefit costs inherited from former parent General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - News), has lined up debtor-in-possession financing from a consortium of banks led by Citigroup Inc (NYSE:C - News) and JPMorgan Chase & Co. (NYSE:JPM - News)

Delphi has a number of large foreign units, but those subsidiaries are not expected to be part of the bankruptcy filing, the source said.

Delphi is represented by Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom and Shearman & Sterling, while General Motors -- which is by far Delphi's largest customer -- is represented by Weil, Gotshal & Manges.

The auto parts maker is not cash-strapped but is filing to take advantage of current, more lenient, bankruptcy rules, which are set to change on October 17, making reorganizations more challenging.

It is also filing to pressure its unions to come up with wage concessions.

Delphi's stock, which has traded above $9 during the last 12 months, fell $1.08 to close at $1.12 on the New York Stock Exchange on Friday amid concerns the company may be unable to reach a deal with GM and its unions to avert a bankruptcy filing.

Delphi, which has struggled since its spinoff in 1999, had said it needed help from GM and the United Auto Workers to restructure money-losing operations or it would consider a Chapter 11 filing covering its U.S. units.

A Delphi bankruptcy would be among the 15 largest since 1980, according to the BankruptcyData.com Web site, based on total assets of about $16.6 billion at the end of 2004. Delphi had revenue of $28.6 billion in 2004, including $12.7 billion from GM in North America.

Delphi in June hired turnaround specialist Steve Miller as chief executive and chairman with the aim to restructure outside bankruptcy. Miller previously was nonexecutive chairman at bankrupt auto parts maker Federal-Mogul Corp. (OTC BB:FDMLQ.OB - News) and chief executive of Bethlehem Steel.

Miller had said changes in U.S. bankruptcy laws effective October 17 would be a consideration in whether it filed for court protection. The changes restrict how much time a debtor has sole control over a reorganization and its retention of executives.

Several months ago, Delphi hired Rothschild Inc. as a strategic adviser and Skadden, Arps partner Jack Butler for legal advice. Butler served as lead counsel to Kmart during the retailer's reorganization.

Delphi posted net losses of $741 million in the first half of 2005, weighed down by high wage and benefit costs inherited from GM and the automaker's production cuts in sport utility vehicles and other slow-moving models.

Delphi had about 185,200 employees worldwide at the end of 2004, including 37,300 salaried and 147,900 hourly workers. Nearly 75 percent of hourly workers were union-represented, including 25,200 by the UAW.

Delphi's UAW contract runs through September 2007. Under a supplemental agreement in 2004, Delphi is allowed to pay new hires lower wages and benefits, but industry conditions have left no meaningful hires under the program.

Delphi wants to eliminate a jobs bank that includes 4,000 idle UAW workers, trim its work force beyond that and cut wages and benefit rates to a supplier level. The UAW has asked GM to take back up to 7,000 Delphi workers.

The auto parts supplier restated financial results for 2001 through 2004 after an internal probe into accounting improprieties that forced out its chief financial officer and five other executives.

Ford Motor Co. (NYSE:F - News) recently completed a bailout of its former parts unit, Visteon Corp. (NYSE:VC - News), taking back plants and other facilities and union workers. Most of the facilities will be prepped and sold.

[post="25456"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well, I say it may be done. History is about to be made. The ripple affects will be seen for years.

[daves87rs]

I agree with the History being made....just Wow. This will be the begining of the end. Delphi. The UAW. Just watch and learn.That's all I can say.

[daves87rs]

Delphi will flinch....and the Union won't give. The reasoning is simple. Even with these concessions the Union would make, Delphi would still have to file for Chapter 11 because GM has refused to help them.

There's no point for the Union to agree to this because General Motors has already said they will not help bail out Delphi.

This has been years in the making. I'm sorry but if Delphi files for Chapter 11 it's their own fault.

[post="25411"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yep.

[daves87rs]

Delta just got out of bankrupcty and that was due to sale to a competing airline. Delphi may provide a restructure plan but if the attorneys have their way, it will take quite sometime before anything is approved.

Plus keep in mind the Union could attack the company in bankruptcy court with their latest move. Increasing the severance pay of execs that are either forced out, or leave on their own with a "good reason." The increase came because Delphi said their current pay structure was "not competitive."

How's that for a news story just before Chapter 11?

[post="25423"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

They need to. Would be smart on their part...

[daves87rs]

It is illegal for teachers to strike in Michigan, it seems to have made the teachers more agreeable at the bargaining table.  What do they want, they are de-facto government employees.  If they want the big money, go into the private sector, better yet, work for yourself.

[post="25436"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yep. Then again, who would want to strike for that great pay and benefits in
Michigan? :rolleyes:

Teachers have no futures in michigan.... :angry:

You only have to look at those major cities...

[daves87rs]

Just as the mechanics were sure they wouldn't lose their jobs at NW.  Very naive position to take.  This is for real.  The judge can simply allow Delphi to throw out the contract, slash jobs permanently, change the wage and benefit scale unilaterally, throw away the pension.....all bets are off in Chapter 11.

[post="25437"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Oh yes, NW will get everything they want out of chapter 11.

Too bad the unions were too stupid to see that coming...

Now they will NEVER come back.....

[daves87rs]

Wow this thread got long in such a short time.  The following is unrelated but I feel the need to relate it anyway.

The local teacher's union voted to authorize a strike (no date has been set yet) because they don't want to pay 9% of their health care premiums.  Under the previous contract they didn't pay anything.

Using my family as an example, our health care premium is $500 a month (family, NOT a single person).  So these teachers are telling me they can't afford to pay less than $50 a month to help out the district?  Taxes were raised by a good margin last year because a few schools needed to be redone.  I graduated last year and the high school needed to be redone.

So it all comes down to less than $50 a month?  Amazing.  Here's the solution:  let them strike for 2 weeks (longest teachers can in PA), don't pay them, don't pay their benefits, fire the old teachers making $80,000 a year and hire young teachers who make $40,000 and force them to accept the proposed contract.

[post="25432"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Sad, isn't it Sci? And those teachers would have been better off in the long run....

[rkmdogs]

I think this website needs to change its' name from Cheers and Gears to Moans & Groans, mostly by Queers! The old saying, if you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch!, could be applied to this tragic situation. And Razoredge needs to change its tune.... get the chip off your shoulder and for God's sake, get spellcheck so we can understand your posts! <_<

[Guest Josh]

I think this website needs to change its' name from Cheers and Gears
to Moans & Groans, mostly by Queers!

[post="25496"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Your prejudice is not appreciated and will not be tolerated here on C&G. Please try to keep the topic on hand on topic and if you have a point to get across…please do it in an appropriate way.

Thanks!

[Guest Josh]

The auto parts maker is not cash-strapped but is filing to take advantage of current, more lenient, bankruptcy rules

Are you kidding me? The company is not even BANKRUPT yet will claim to be because it's more "lienent" now than it will be later.

What judge would approve of this if the damn company is not even BROKE?!?

[Guest Josh]

This is all fucked up. I can't believe what I'm seeing. Being 21 in this country and seein this. I wish I could make a difference. The Union is at stake with this. I hate NAFTA and the "Free Trade Agreement" that was made. Such Bullshit!

[CaddyXLR-V]

This is all fucked up. I can't believe what I'm seeing. Being 21 in this country and seein this.

I wish I could make a difference. The Union is at stake with this. I hate NAFTA and the "Free Trade Agreement" that was made.

Such Bullshit!

[post="25504"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The American car makers will continue to slide unless they can compete on costs with the rest of the automakers. Either give back now, or work non union for Toyota later. Thats what its coming down to. Personally, I dont want to see the non American companies gain another point of share, and I want the American companies do whatever they have to do to make sure that doesnt happen.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

GM needs to streamline their business NOW. Their little cash reserve is not nearly enough for what 7 brands? No, they need to slim down BIGTIME if they want to advoid Ch11 and advoiding it is a good thing because imagine the Media when they learn that what a million people are out of pension? can you imagine how BAD GM would be knocked? how many people would DETEST them? and dont blame NAFTA, given time our economy will rebalance itself. Free trade is a wonderful concept that rarely turns out well (much like pure socialism)

[Croc]

This is beautiful and glorious. History in the making...

[motownr]

I fail to see how this in anything but positive for the domestic auto producers. The faster they can level the playing field in terms of their cost structures, the more jobs they'll be able to retain. Even as the relative of a union organizer, I fail to see where it says that everyone with a high school education is entitled to: 2 houses, 3 vehicles, 2 Harleys, 2 snowmobiles, limited costs for health care, and 6 weeks of annual vacation. This, believe it or not, is the lifestyle of many of the union guys. My livelihood is directly tied to the pocketbooks of GM and Delphi employees. Chapter 11 for DPH is a nightmare scenario. That said, it's the best outcome for everyone in the long run.

[Shantanu]

What does this mean for GM? Is it true that if Delphi declares bankruptcy, GM will inherit all the obligations (pensions and health care) owed to Delphi's workers? If so, this could be the ruin of GM.

[Guest Josh]

For the 2nd time....lets not make personal attatcks. If it continues or goes on again, or any taunting warnings will be handed out. Thanks.

[evok]

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0...08/1-341550.htm

The future has taken root in the present!

[Hogans_Heroes]

It is OFFICIAL and a DONE DEAL!

Without interjecting myself into the "debate" above and while some on this board are undoubtedly affected directly (and we are all affected indirectly), I'd hope we could keep our commentary to a decent level of professionalism. No one, not Himanshu Patel et. al., not Steve Miller, not Ron Getellfinger, not Rick Wagoner, not myself is an entirely 100% impartial observor. Emotions will run high, but I look forward to the exchange of ideas much more than emotive response.

Regards,
Hogans_Heroes

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/051008/delphi_bankruptcy.html?.v=2

AP
Auto Supplier Delphi Files for Bankruptcy
Saturday October 8, 12:25 pm ET
By Dee-Ann Durbin, AP Auto Writer
Delphi, America's Largest Auto Supplier, Files for Bankruptcy, Sending Shockwaves Through Industry


DETROIT (AP) -- Delphi Corp., the largest U.S. auto supplier, filed for bankruptcy Saturday, sending shock waves through the nation's auto industry, which already is weakened by high labor costs and falling market share. The company's bankruptcy is one of the largest in the country's history.

Delphi filed to reorganize its U.S. operations in federal bankruptcy court in New York, where hearings are scheduled to begin next week. Delphi's non-U.S. operations were not included in the filing.

Delphi Chairman and CEO Robert S. Miller said the company hopes to emerge from Chapter 11 in early to mid-2007.

"We will make every effort to make this as quick as possible," Miller told The Associated Press on Saturday.

Miller, a restructuring expert who was hired in July, had threatened to take the company into bankruptcy if he failed to reach a restructuring agreement with Delphi's former parent, General Motors Corp., and its largest union, the United Auto Workers. Miller set a deadline of Oct. 17, when U.S. bankruptcy laws are scheduled to change.

Miller said Delphi will continue negotiating with GM and the UAW to lower its labor costs. Miller said the three parties agreed to continue their discussions after a bankruptcy filing.

"We mutually concluded there was still too much of the complex work yet to be done," Miller said. "It was not going to be efficient to work right up to the midnight deadline to the change in the law."

Miller said nothing will change immediately. Delphi will continue to pay its 50,000 U.S. employees and suppliers and will ship its products on schedule. Delphi has 31 plants in 13 states, including Michigan, Ohio, Alabama and California. The company has 185,000 employees worldwide.

"We are not going to adversely affect our customers," he said. "Our people will get their pay checks and will still have their health benefits. Retirees will continue to get their checks. Any changes to that will be dealt with in an orderly way."

Delphi will finance its operations with $4.5 billion in loans, including up to $2 billion in debtor-in-possession financing from a group of lenders led by JPMorgan Chase Bank and Citigroup Global Markets Inc.

Delphi, based in the Detroit suburb of Troy, has struggled to make a profit since GM spun it off in 1999. It lost $4.8 billion in 2004 and nearly $750 million in the first half of this year.

Delphi had $16.5 billion in total assets as of June 30, the most recent figure available, and has total debt of $6 billion, Standard & Poor's said Thursday. The company had $4.3 billion in unfunded pension liabilities at the end of 2004, according to a company filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

The largest corporate bankruptcy in the U.S. was WorldCom Inc., which had $103.9 billion in pre-bankruptcy assets.

[Croc]

This is awesome! OK...so who wants to speculate on exactly what the ramifications will be? Exactly how is this going to affect GM, Ford, et al? Edited October 8, 2005 by Croc

[Guest Josh]

It's a shame. I'll be making more than people twice my age that build components for a vehicle I'll purchase. Never did I imagine the day.

[razoredge]

And Razoredge needs to change its tune.... get the chip off your shoulder and for God's sake, get spellcheck so we can understand your posts!
<_<

[post="25496"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

another attack, I dont need to change my tune, people here need to change their tune about people only deserve 10-12 dollars an hour. Just go try it. What? I hurt somebodys eyeballs for a second because I misspelled or told them to FO or back off and that thats bad. Well there are hundreds of thousands of Americans that are hurt each and every week when they go to the bank and cash that pathetic little paycheck. Ya ya ya I know they just need to go to college and get "skills" than those hundreds of thousands of Americans will be competeting for your jobs.

I am very simple minded and I just cant see how I can comprehend this and the brain children here cant. We need good paying jobs for each and every American born child. Nowhere and I mean nowhere is the government or your attitudes or the current direction the economy is taking makeing any considerations for good jobs for everyone. Its all drivin solely by quick capitol gains for the top.

The health care issue is a great example. Its said to be the problem. Its said that workers should cough up the doe. I have tried over and over and over to turn it on the health care industry itself and it has gone completely disregarded. Everyone is in a grand fury to kill the Unions, drive working blue collar back down where they belong and yet we want to ignore the largest contributor to the health care problems.

sorry you guys dont intimidate me at all. I learn a little here and there from some posts but most of it is just not impressive because its ignoring all the other major problems and issues facing this country and jumps straight to the bottom, taking all aggression out there. As I said before "how brave"

[razoredge]

Clearly, what has gone around, has come your way, and then some.  Enjoy the dung pie.

[post="25441"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

what was this, this wasnt a personal attack ?

was I just supposed to sit back and take it ?

NOT !

[razoredge]

This is awesome!  OK...so who wants to speculate on exactly what the ramifications will be?

Exactly how is this going to affect GM, Ford, et al?

[post="25555"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well is Chrysler still an American car company ?

I say that by 010 there will be no American cars.

The burbs will continue to grow at alarming rates with even more expensive showpiece houses. While somewhere off to the side we'll be stuffing in more trailer parks. Perhaps we will see some down town rehabs as minimun wage blue collar folks move close to work or bus route. Should be interesting, all those mullet headed, rednecks sharing districts with the pierce freaks and crackheads.

Ah but aint that America
little pink houses

[Croc]

Daimler-Chrysler is German, but the et al referred to suppliers and designers that are still American

[4gm]

"Delphi’s high fixed costs — it claims to pay UAW workers $130,000 a year in wages and benefits — have become a greater burden because of production cuts at GM." "The UAW — which has secured a wage-and-benefit package valued at about $65 an hour for thousands of Detroit auto workers over the years" Wow...just, wow.

[evok]

This is beautiful and glorious.  History in the making...

[post="25516"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This is not good news but necessary news.

[jd2b]

As much as I am a capitalist, I have to say I agree with Razoredge's assertions about where this country is headed. There are serious and I mean serious flaws with the general nature of desire for "lower prices." Free-trade has been an advantage for upper-middle class and above income brackets and for foreign populations. It has allowed wealthier people to benefit from lower prices, at the expense of the working class. I don't have time to put forth more at the moment, but I hope to add to this discussion in the near future. Edited October 8, 2005 by jd2b

[mjd1001]

This is really about economics on a very macro level. Globalization and free trade is a positive overall over the long run for the world as a whole (on average, and that is key) What is going to happen is people across the world will eventually get paid about the same wage for the same work. The good news is people in China and India would eventually get paid closer to what Americans get now. The bad news is Americans will get paid closer to what those in China get paid now. The clear benefits are to those workers in developing countries, and investors/high level managers who can take advantage of the new open labor markets. That, is a very VERY simplified version of globalization. We are in the early stages of it, and just starting to see where things will inevitably head. Edited October 8, 2005 by mjd1001

[mjd1001]

"consessions" what ever that means, wont save this countrys national product, nothing will. Generations will fall by the way side while we are waiting for the third world to get to the standard of living that exists in this country and thats if inflation in this counrty stops now.

[post="25388"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As per my last post....what is happening is not the Third world is catching up to us. What is happening is we are going to meet the third world in the middle...that means their standard of living goes way up..and ours must go down. Things must stay in balance.

The only way to stop that is to put the brakes on globalization. However, with how far it has gone already, the U.S. cannot do that alone. We would need the cooperation of China and India and Russia...and I do not think they are going to just stop now and end their growth just so us Americans can continue living at a higher standard then they do.

The train has left the station, this is the way things are going to go and there is no way to stop it now that it has started. The only way to protect our standard of living is to not go into debt and learn to live with less than we have now.