Future of the Union

[Croc]

This is not good news but necessary news.

[post="25577"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree it is necessary, but I also disagree because I do think it is good. Anything to bring the unions back in line and back into the real world. It isn't 1910 anymore.

[razoredge]

This is really about economics on a very macro level.

Globalization and free trade is a positive overall over the long run for the world as a whole (on average, and that is key)

What is going to happen is people across the world will eventually get paid about the same wage for the same work.  The good news is people in China and India would eventually get paid closer to what Americans get now.

The bad news is Americans will get paid closer to what those in China get paid now.

The clear benefits are to those workers in developing countries, and investors/high level managers who can take advantage of the new open labor markets.

That, is a very VERY simplified version of globalization.  We are in the early stages of it, and just starting to see where things will inevitably head.

[post="25581"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Like I said before and was shuned for it, I have seen this comming for 30 years. I have identified the scam and spoken out against it since the 70's. Our own local GE exec was one of the first "pioneers" of this new way of doing business.

and those like me are just supposed to sit back and take it right ? We are supposed to be OK being reduced to third world economy while our utilities, insurance industry, health care industry and real estate rises to a level of economy far beyond.

Im American I do not care about the world what so ever. They have all been our enemies. They have not contributed. Now with the help of our American corporate and government leaders they can win the war on a different front.

A form of ethnic cleansing from within the country using outside help.

[mjd1001]

Like I said before and was shuned for it, I have seen this comming for 30 years. I have identified the scam and spoken out against it since the 70's. Our own local GE exec was one of the first "pioneers" of this new way of doing business.

and those like me are just supposed to sit back and take it right ? We are supposed to be OK being reduced to third world economy while our utilities, insurance industry, health care industry and real estate rises to a level of economy far beyond.

Im American I do not care about the world what so ever. They have all been our enemies. They have not contributed. Now with the help of our American corporate and government leaders they can win the war on a different front.

A form of ethnic cleansing from within the country using outside help.

[post="25587"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I see your point and agree with you to a very large extent. There are just two problems:

-first, the train has left the station. I think it may not be possible to stop this now. As you said for those of you who had the vision to see this coming 10-20 years ago, it could have been stopped then. But people didn't want to hear about it then.

-if there was a way to stop it now..or at least slow it down..there would be 'side effects' Those side effects would likely prove to be a slower rate of increase in our standard of living. For example...After a DVD player was introduced to the market, we would not be able to buy them for $30 just 5 years later. It might take 10-15 years to get to that point. Or how about Plasma TV's? They would not fall in price as quickly without globalization.

Personally I would take prices of new goods going down much slower...rather than the situation we have now.

Unfortunatly...dollars are the things that vote now. Those who have them use them to say they want more for less as soon as possible....damn to those who don't have the dollars. Edited October 8, 2005 by mjd1001

[evok]

I agree it is necessary, but I also disagree because I do think it is good.  Anything to bring the unions back in line and back into the real world.  It isn't 1910 anymore.

[post="25586"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well there is a human side to it. Even my cold heart knows that but...

But on a side note. I just re-read the memo hogan posted from the UAW to its Delphi members outlining the Delphi proposal.

The memo was possibly dated on Oct. 5th. The UAW leadership had 3 days to publically make a case for themselves. In the memo they even state that if DPH files, the proposed wage cut backs by Delphi under Chapter 11 will be greater than what was just offered.

This is a complete lack of leadership at the UAW. This is a case of a ships captain telling the crew the ship is sinking but not even taking action to get the crew and other occupants onto life boats. They are all going down. Edited October 8, 2005 by evok

[Croc]

Look, call me insensitive, but this shouldn't be a shock to anyone. This has been coming for years. If people wanted to be competitive, they needed job skills. $65/hr is ridiculous for someone with only a high school education. People make choices in life, and they are responsible for those choices. On $65/hr and a 40hr workweek, is it really that hard to take a class or two at a community college to gain some skills that would make you more competitive? I think not. There seems to be a double standard here. Razoredge rallies against perceived corporate greed, while many (including me) are called insensitive for rallying against union greed. What's wrong with this picture? Edited October 8, 2005 by Croc

[Clownzilla]

I've said it once and I will say it again.......................... A Non-USA GM made vehicle is looking better day after day. This is looking closer to a necissary (but heart breaking) measure.

[Hey Now]

This is awesome!  OK...so who wants to speculate on exactly what the ramifications will be?

Exactly how is this going to affect GM, Ford, et al?

[post="25555"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My predictions:
-Jobs Bank is history
-Delphi closes more plants than anyone thinks they will and those workers are gone
-Wages get slashed, but not to the $10-12/hour that Delphi asked for, it will be higher
-Blue and white collar workers wil pay the same for health care
-Unless the UAW realizes what's happening and plays the game, there may no longer be a UAW at Delphi, the workers would be non-union
-Another article already states Delphi will be out of bankruptcy by early 2007. UAW contract talks start Summer 2007, and the floodgates will be open, and they will lose many things to the Big 2.5

[Hogans_Heroes]

This is from www.delphidocket.com:

"Relief Requested
15. To successfully reorganize, the Debtors require significant cost reductions and labor modifications, including elimination of retiree medical and life insurance benefits for its hourly active employees and current hourly retirees whose benefits were covered by a collective bargaining agreement. Under section 1114 of the Bankruptcy Code, the Debtors may eliminate retiree medical and life insurance benefits only if the Debtors and the "authorized representative" of the current hourly retirees agree to an elimination of retiree medical and life insurance benefits, or if the Debtor and the authorized representative do not reach an agreement and this Court authorizes elimination of such benefits pursuant to the standards set forth in sections 1114(g) and/or (h)."


Strip out the legalese and what it means is that Delphi is "going nuclear". And, unlike a solvent GM, there can be no doubt as to the legality of it.

Re: Shantanu, the UAW (and most objective legal parties, it seems) point to the GM-Delphi Master Separation Agreement and GM-UAW contracts as stipulating GM is liable for pension and OPEB (read: health care) for retirees in the event of a Delphi default on these obligations through 2007, and even then it seems some are saying GM is only liable for the discrepancy between what the PBGC will provide and what the Delphi retirees were contractually owed. I'm not a lawyer, though, and cannot speak to the predicted outcome with a lot of confidence. But neither can most legal professionals, I don't think, until more pieces fall into place. Also, one thing I do worry about is that the UAW is certainly free to bargain with GM during contract renegotiations in 2007 for relief for retired Delphi pensioners. Again, absolutely no way to predict how that might turn out either... (although the UAW will not necessarily be negotiating from a position of strength).

[jd2b]

Croc, you are making an assumption that everybody who makes ~$65hr has only a HS education. Even if they did, there could be additional training to do the work, maybe not college style education but there are many people who for whatever reason beyond their control cannot attend college. I also believe that the $65hr number is inflated and not entirely accurate. If someone has been with the company for 25yrs I would hope that INCLUDING benefits they could make about that, but your entry level employee probably gets between 20-30hr including benefits. I have 6 years of higher education under my belt, but know that I would require a lot of training to do the work that most UAW employees do. I respect the work that they do, I believe that the situation at hand is extremely complex. Personally I think one of the best solutions is to unionize the foreign owned manufacturing plants. A more realistic approach would be to introduce a mandatory reduction of medical expenses. Just like attorney's are limited by statute in certain situtaions, physician's fees should be regulated. To aide the physcians the federal government should become the underwriter of med-mal insurance. These steps will reduce one of the major costs of manufacturing in this country compared to other countries. The union should also be realistic and take some reasonable wage reductions AND make sure that ALL of their employees are held to a very high standard. This means cutting blantently lazy employees and those that do not maintain high quality standards in their work product.

[goblue1999]

Yep. Then again, who would want to strike for that great pay and benefits in
Michigan? :rolleyes:

Teachers have no futures in michigan.... :angry:

You only have to look at those major cities...

[post="25485"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No teacher with any marketability would seek a job in one of Michigan's larger cities. The small towns, those that value education and the strength that it brings to their property values, pay very handsomely, including the district that I live in. Our teachers are NOT part of the two major militant national unions. Instead, they have their own, district-only organization. We negotiate with them in good faith, and pay them what they are worth. They never walk out, they are never bad-mouthed publicly, we are a team.

the teachers that join the unions and seek jobs in the big cities are, on average, teachers because they couldn't make it in the real world, not dedicated educators as you would hope.

[Croc]

Those who go to a technical college are fine. Those are job skills. The people with the most time at the company and the most job skills, that's good. The problem is unskilled people making far more than they should. If you are unskilled, why should you have that much of a paycheck? And before someone starts complaining about the expense of college, there are plenty or scholarships and student loans, especially for the underpriviliged.

[evok]

This is from www.delphidocket.com:

"Relief Requested
15. To successfully reorganize, the Debtors require significant cost reductions and labor modifications, including elimination of retiree medical and life insurance benefits for its hourly active employees and current hourly retirees whose benefits were covered by a collective bargaining agreement. Under section 1114 of the Bankruptcy Code, the Debtors may eliminate retiree medical and life insurance benefits only if the Debtors and the "authorized representative" of the current hourly retirees agree to an elimination of retiree medical and life insurance benefits, or if the Debtor and the authorized representative do not reach an agreement and this Court authorizes elimination of such benefits pursuant to the standards set forth in sections 1114(g) and/or (h)."
Strip out the legalese and what it means is that Delphi is "going nuclear".  And, unlike a solvent GM, there can be no doubt as to the legality of it.

Re: Shantanu, the UAW (and most objective legal parties, it seems) point to the GM-Delphi Master Separation Agreement and GM-UAW contracts as stipulating GM is liable for pension and OPEB (read: health care) for retirees in the event of a Delphi default on these obligations through 2007, and even then it seems some are saying GM is only liable for the discrepancy between what the PBGC will provide and what the Delphi retirees were contractually owed.  I'm not a lawyer, though, and cannot speak to the predicted outcome with a lot of confidence.  But neither can most legal professionals, I don't think, until more pieces fall into place.  Also, one thing I do worry about is that the UAW is certainly free to bargain with GM during contract renegotiations in 2007 for relief for retired Delphi pensioners.  Again, absolutely no way to predict how that might turn out either... (although the UAW will not necessarily be negotiating from a position of strength).

[post="25604"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes and if their legacy costs are wiped clean, that creates a competitive advantage. Unless the rest of the playing field is equalized!

[Ghost Dog]

The Labor Force should shut them down. They need to send a message. What is owed to them, is owed. Furthermore all Delphi employees should themselves file for Bankruptcy protection. Let the Financial institutions bare the burden of loss. Edited October 8, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[jd2b]

But Croc, we still do not know who is making what. I am pretty sure the people netting ~65hr or above are skilled and senior. Of course the company is going to make their situation seem as worse as possible. This bankruptcy is a BS if you ask me because clearly Delphi is NOT insolvent. If an entity is NOT insolvent it should not be able to get the benefits of bankruptcy.

[Guest Josh]

GM Comments on Delphi Filing Under Chapter 11 DETROIT - General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM) today said it expects no immediate effect on its global automotive operations as a result of Delphi Corp.'s (NYSE: DPH) Chapter 11 filing. GM plans to work constructively in the Chapter 11 proceedings with the court, Delphi, its unions and other participants in Delphi's restructuring process. GM's goal is to pursue outcomes that are in the best interests of GM and its stockholders, and that enable Delphi to continue as an important supplier to GM. Delphi has indicated to GM that it expects no disruption in its ability to supply GM with the systems, components and parts it needs as Delphi pursues a restructuring plan under the Chapter 11 process. Although the challenges faced by Delphi during its restructuring process create operating and financial risks for GM, that process is also expected to present opportunities for GM over time. For example, on the one hand, Delphi or one or more of its affiliates may reject or threaten to reject individual contracts with GM, either for the purpose of exiting specific lines of business or in an attempt to increase the price GM pays for certain parts and components. As a result, GM might be adversely affected by disruption in the supply of automotive systems, components and parts which could potentially force the suspension of production at GM assembly facilities. On the other hand, GM estimates that it currently pays a purchase price premium to Delphi in the aggregate of approximately $2 billion a year above globally competitive market prices for systems, components and parts purchased from Delphi's North American operations. GM believes that a restructuring of Delphi through the Chapter 11 process provides GM with an opportunity to reduce or eliminate that purchase price premium, over time, as well as improve the quality of systems, components and parts it procures. In connection with the Delphi split-off, GM has provided limited guarantees with respect to certain benefits payable by Delphi to former GM U.S. hourly employees who transferred to Delphi relating to pensions, post-retirement health care and life insurance. The Delphi Chapter 11 filing does not by itself trigger any of the benefit guarantees. GM intends to provide additional information regarding matters affecting GM due to Delphi's filing under Chapter 11 as soon as practicable. Forward Looking Statements All statements contained or incorporated in this Form 8-K which address events or developments that we expect or anticipate may occur in the future, such as, but not limited to, GM's production and operating performance, the impact of Delphi's bankruptcy on GM's global automotive operations, ability to address future obligations and to do so out of normal operating cash flow, the enforceability of the right to fully or partially set-off obligations owed to Delphi against amount owed by Delphi to GM, the ability of GM's vendors, including Delphi, to meet GM's current needs and to do so in a timely manner, enforceability of the Delphi's agreement to indemnify GM, the ability to reduce or eliminate the purchase price premium, statements regarding the enforceability of the benefit guarantee, and estimates of financial impact of the benefit guarantee are among the forward-looking statements within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements represent our current judgment on what the future may hold, and we believe these judgments are reasonable, actual results may differ materially due to numerous important factors that are described below and other factors that may be described in subsequent reports that GM may file or furnish with the SEC: The ability of Delphi to meet its financial challenges; Changes in financial conditions of Delphi and Delphi's ability to satisfy the Indemnification if Delphi is cannot meet its financial challenges; The impact on GM and GM's other suppliers if Delphi is cannot meet its financial challenges; Interpretations of the agreements between GM and Delphi and GM and the unions; Interpretations by the Bankruptcy Court and any changes in the federal bankruptcy code; Changes in the competitive environment; Changes in relations with Unions; The ability of the GM to achieve reductions in cost of supplies and to realize production efficiencies, and to implement capital expenditures, all at the levels and times planned by management; The ability to met cash flow objectives at the levels and times planned by management; and Other factors, risks and uncertainties discussed in our filings with the SEC. GM does not intend or assume any obligation to update any of these forward-looking statements.

[Ghost Dog]

Delphi has indicated to GM that it expects no disruption in its ability to supply GM with the systems, components and parts it needs

What incentive does the Delphi workforce have to do that? They should shutdown all 38 U.S. plants.

[razoredge]

Well this is all about Delphi and short term evaluations Long term ? I think market share just took a real dive. Profitbaility will be impossible even if we let then have our children for 12 hour shifts. I guess most have forgotten who buys American built cars. Certainly few of the tycoons posting here. I think topics so potentially explosive as this should have requirements of posting a small amount of personal info. Nothing to serious just things like Age work experiance bill paying experiance basic field of employment this would show if there was hidden agenda lack of experience at getting teeth kicked in I say this because I suspect most of the post here, just as mine are all about personal agendas. From where I stand Im sick and tired of having worked so hard for so many years to have it all disappear before my eyes. Spending over 6 years looking for any employment to take seriously and comming up dry and way behind in equity I stand strong for better wages and benefits. Anyone ever wonder if things have been so bad for so long how GM or rather the N.Am auto industry was willing to agree to such high paying packages ? They are steep, I dont think they are steep compared to health care industry or corporate officers. wish someone could pinpoint much of these packages, at ?65$ there must be a tremendous amount per hour into pension funds. Now with all this does that make those $per hour pensions a kick back to the company :P If there is this huge expensive job bank already getting paid why has there been time and a half overtime ? :unsure: If there has been so much downsizing and job cuts and plant closings, why has there been a need for overtime ? :unsure: Myself I hate over time, it now burns me out and takes me away from my family and interests. I have quit a few jobs due to mandatory consistant OT & Saturdays. The money cant buy back your life....or your family

[Hey Now]

If there is this huge expensive job bank already getting paid why has there been time and a half overtime ?  :unsure:

Its usually due to the local contracts, i.e. one plant in Town A needs overtime, lets say the next 8 Saturdays, they won't bring in jobs bank people from shutdown factory in Town B because the local contract protect the local people it covers, meaning the overtime goes to the locals.

If there has been so much downsizing and job cuts and plant closings, why has there been a need for overtime ?  :unsure:

Same kind of thing, Plant A is at max capacity for a certain Widget, Plant B makes a Widget nobody wants, local contracts prevent workers from B going to A to grab up A's overtime.



Just found this from The Car Connection, looks like some non-UAW unions understand the money problems in Detroit right now:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/
Intersting quote from article:
"However, one union leader speculated 400-500 new jobs would be created by the new work rules. The trade-off to union members, of course, is that some members’ overly healthy overtime bonuses may fall."

[razoredge]

Well what kind of moron would agree to all that when they also agreed to job banks and higher wages. The roots of these problems are way bigger than I thought. Still I gotta believe that there are or were unemployeed local workers to get in there and run another shift, avoiding the overtime pay.

[Hey Now]

Well what kind of moron would agree to all that when they also agreed to job banks and higher wages. The roots of these problems are way bigger than I thought.

Still I gotta believe that there are or were unemployeed local workers to get in there and run another shift, avoiding the overtime pay.

[post="25669"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The national agreement is usually very general: wages, raises, health care, etc. Its the local contracts that get detailed, everything revolves around seniority. Don't quote me on this, but I think if overtime is needed, the high seniority guy gets asked if he wants to work before they would ask the low seniority jobs bank guy to come in. Its very complex and different plant to plant from what I understand.

[VenSeattle]

Here’s my ramble… for what it’s worth I believe a lot of the Union manufacturing positions at Delphi will become automated. I remember reading over the past decade or two that several positions never did become automated in Delphi because of requirement to maintain a certain amount of Union positions. It's interesting to read that GM is paying an estimated $2 Billion annual premium for doing business with Delphi. No doubt it is out of necessity to sooth GM UAW members by using UAW part suppliers. I agree with evok that this is history in the making and also a necessity. The Industrial Golden Age has long past and one of the last “Old Era” empires is finally collapsing upon itself. This is what happens when an industry that’s been consolidating for half a century can no longer do so. Several automobile manufacturers & part suppliers have gone out of business in the past 50 years. They just didn’t make that big of an impact because someone was there to pick up the pieces/buy the assets and keep running business as usual. Delphi was once an internal division of GM… this is a small scale example of what an empire like GM will look like if it too falls into Bankruptcy.

[Clownzilla]

The Labor Force should shut them down. They need to send a message. What is owed to them, is owed.

[post="25627"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Great Idea! This will send the message to American auto industry related business to get
out of the USA even faster! So what will be owed to the union will be nothing, because they will have nobody to work for. Ah......this is just getting into a faster and faster spiral.

[evok]

Don't forget this will put a lot of pressure on Visteon! When do they file?

[Croc]

Answer: before the bankruptcy laws change, right?

[daves87rs]

No teacher with any marketability would seek a job in one of Michigan's larger cities.  The small towns, those that value education and the strength that it brings to their property values, pay very handsomely, including the district that I live in.  Our teachers are NOT part of the two major militant national unions.  Instead, they have their own, district-only organization.  We negotiate with them in good faith, and pay them what they are worth.  They never walk out, they are never bad-mouthed publicly, we are a team.

the teachers that join the unions and seek jobs in the big cities are, on average, teachers because they couldn't make it in the real world, not dedicated educators as you would hope.

[post="25610"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Very true. Getting jobs in the cities can be rough, as the teachers in teach in them.
But Michigan as a whole is going to get shafted, not just the big cities. The small
towns just won't see it as quick. There are many reasons, (a whole topic in itself).
but the stuggle to keep or get money for the districts is going to be nasty...

[daves87rs]

Here’s my ramble… for what it’s worth

I believe a lot of the Union manufacturing positions at Delphi will become automated. I remember reading over the past decade or two that several positions never did become automated in Delphi because of requirement to maintain a certain amount of Union positions.

It's interesting to read that GM is paying an estimated $2 Billion annual premium for doing business with Delphi. No doubt it is out of necessity to sooth GM UAW members by using UAW part suppliers.

I agree with evok that this is history in the making and also a necessity. The Industrial Golden Age has long past and one of the last “Old Era” empires is finally collapsing upon itself. This is what happens when an industry that’s been consolidating for half a century can no longer do so. Several automobile manufacturers & part suppliers have gone out of business in the past 50 years. They just didn’t make that big of an impact because someone was there to pick up the pieces/buy the assets and keep running business as usual. Delphi was once an internal division of GM… this is a small scale example of what an empire like GM will look like if it too falls into Bankruptcy.

[post="25674"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Very good point, Ven. I don't think I could have said it better myself.

[futureoftheunion]

Thanks for the visits to our site. I'll do my best to keep the site updated with news as it comes in.

[mjd1001]

The Labor Force should shut them down. They need to send a message. What is owed to them, is owed.
Furthermore all  Delphi  employees should themselves file for Bankruptcy protection. Let the Financial  institutions bare the burden of loss.

[post="25627"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I could not make up to better quotes if I tried to illustate what is wrong with our country today. How can people think this way?

Why does everyone feel they are owed something by someone else. It drives me crazy. Edited October 9, 2005 by mjd1001

[Ghost Dog]

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0...8/01-341704.htm

"Delphi's decision would be extremely disappointing under any circumstances, but it is all the more so in light of the company's announcement on Friday * just one day before filing bankruptcy -- that it had sweetened the severance packages for Delph's 21 most highly compensated executives because the old severance package was * as a Delphi spokesperson put it -- 'uncompetitive.'

Despicabley typical of american big business. One last cash grab.

[Ghost Dog]

I could not make up to better quotes if I tried to illustate what is wrong with our country today.  How can people think this way?

Why does everyone feel they are owed something by someone else. It drives me crazy.

[post="25748"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Becuase they had a contract !!!!!!! They have a contracted debt!!!!!!!! Like any other debt !!!! they are thieving from retirees!!!!!

[mjd1001]

Becuase they had a  contract !!!!!!!   They have a contracted debt!!!!!!!!  Like  any other debt !!!!  they are thieving from  retirees!!!!!

[post="25750"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

They are not theiving. They are filing for bankruptcy. If they were filing simply to "screw over" the UAW, the judge would throw the case out immediatly.

Obviously there are some very serious financial issues for the company. Delphi gave the UAW a choice in a way...instead of just having them file, they said they could not file if they accepted the proposed cuts. They declined.

Therefore, it is not theiving...it is a company filing for bankruptcy, and the consequences that result from it. Welcome to America, it happens to thousands and thousands of people in other industies EVERY year. It happened in other industries to people I know. It happened to me a few years ago..where I had to start at a new job at just over half my previous salary.

It may not seem right or fair..but it is perfectly legal under our laws. To be upset by it is understandable. To say they people should file for bankruptcy to make others pay for it..or to say they should shut down the GM factories by not supplying them is Juvenile.

Stuff like this happens..even to people who don't deserve to be in that situation. When people cry and whine about it and say "someone else needs to pay for this" they sound like a 5 year old. Edited October 9, 2005 by mjd1001

[usa1]

Thanks for the visits to our site. I'll do my best to keep the site updated with news as it comes in.

[post="25728"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

When your avatar is a communist revolutionary and your "about" page spouts socialist and communist ideals, I can't help but laugh at the thought that you think people will take you seriously.

Mark

[mjd1001]

When your avatar is a communist revolutionary and your "about" page spouts socialist and communist ideals, I can't help but laugh at the thought that you think people will take you seriously.

Mark

[post="25766"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I Edited October 9, 2005 by mjd1001

[Ghost Dog]

They are not theiving. They are filing for bankruptcy. If they were filing simply to "screw over" the UAW, the judge would throw the case out immediatly.

Depends on the judge's political bias.

..or to say they should shut down the GM factories by not supplying them is Juvenile.

It's not juvenile. Its what a proper union should do. Protect the membership by what ever means.

[razoredge]

apparently somebody felt the exec were owed something with that severance increase. I guess its which ever side of the fence your standing on. line em up

[mjd1001]

Depends on the judge's political bias.
It's not juvenile. Its what  a proper union should do. Protect the membership by what ever means.

[post="25773"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In that case then a 'proper union' is immoral in my view and in the views of any others.

How far does "whatever means" go? Does it cross the line of doing things that are illegal (I beleive refusing to work under bankruptcy law would be bordering on illegal). If that doesn't work..or if doing illegal acts mean "whatever means" to you..than how is that different than when you complained about "thievery" a few posts ago (despite the fact that under bankruptcy laws..it is not theivery)?

Seems to be plenty of holes in your logic.

And the judges political bias? We are talkign what is supposed to happen..and what is supposed to happen here is that the case would be thrown out. Seeing how there is obviously financial difficulty here, the only way political bias could change "what should be" to "what shouldn't be" is if there was not financial difficulty. That is not the case here.

So once again you even bringing up political bias has nothing to do with YOUR case, so is it just what you are conditioned to say when a topic comes up whether is is pertiant or not? I can do that also....let me think of something...how about "your sister is fat" or "my dad can beat up your dad"? Edited October 9, 2005 by mjd1001

[Ghost Dog]

In that case then a 'proper union' is immoral in my view and in the views of any others. 

[post="25776"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Where is the Morality in taking away a senior citizens pension? There is no morality in Big Business. Just Greed. Edited October 9, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[mjd1001]

Where is the  Morality in taking away a senior citizens pension? There is no morality in Big Business. Just Greed.

[post="25780"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This is not about greed of a big company..this about survival of a big company..and maybe an entire domestic industry.

Are there some greedy execs involved...Yes I'm sure there are...but the dollars they are taking is miniscule in percentage terms to the financial burden the company faces as a whole in respect to it's future possible existence. Edited October 9, 2005 by mjd1001

[VenSeattle]

It appears that the UAW must feel that if they are not to survive, then the companies they work for must not survive as well.

When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company… the former company will be gone. The UAW symbolically will get their ultimate wish: for both to fall together and die.

They fail to realize that a company is not human. It can re-organize and resurrect itself after bankruptcy. However, the relationship between the UAW & that new company does not have to be resurrected in any form. The UAW has no value if there is no company to grant them their demands.

It comes down to the UAW deluding itself into believing they had more power than what they actually did.

Ultimately, the corporation has the final trump card. When the UAW decides to go to the extreme of "whetever means necessary" then the company has no other choice than to do the same.

[futureoftheunion]

Mark, Not to highjack this thread but Che was not a communist. He left Cuba because of communism. Social Justice is something we all should make ourselves familar with. If you want to debate this subject let us not do it on this thread.

[VenSeattle]

So who at GM thought it was a good idea to spin off Delphi and then buy the parts back at a premium?

[post="25807"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If I recall at the time, it was in Delphi's best interest. The market was strong. Delphi could take on contracts with competing manufacturers without it becoming a conflict of interest.

I'm sure the "premium" developed over time when everyone started pressing for cuts on the supplier side and GM couldn't outsource to an overseas supplier due to UAW relations. If GM would have gone with the lowest bidder, Delphi would have filed for bankruptcy much sooner. Fixed costs have become an obvious cause for Delphi's current unprofitability. Delphi can't compete against cheaper labor overseas.

[Guest Josh]

Just to tackle a few issues:

"This is not about greed of a big company.."

Oh no? How about the company INCREASING SEVERANCE PAY TO EXECS? Argue that one.

"When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company…"

The company will not survive in my eyes. They are based in Troy. The company will literally "burn to the ground" if anything goes through. Not to say I support it....but if hundreds of thousands retiree's pentions are jacked with.....good luck.

Won't happen.

Delphi will have to keep paying those and the hourly wages under the current agreement.

Notice what's in bold? AGREEMENT!

Last but most certainly not least, the Editor of "Future Of The Union" for commenting on this web-site/forum.

It's very well appreciated and well known that you read what we, as AMERICANS feel on this issue!

As the Editor, I commend you.

[VenSeattle]

"When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company…"

The company will not survive in my eyes. They are based in Troy. The company will literally "burn to the ground" if anything goes through. Not to say I support it....but if hundreds of thousands retiree's pentions are jacked with.....good luck.

Won't happen.

Delphi will have to keep paying those and the hourly wages under the current agreement.

Notice what's in bold? AGREEMENT!

[post="25921"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Delphi is a global technology manufacturer. They may be based in Troy, but they have alternate HQs in Paris, Tokyo and Sao Paulo. The Bankruptcy only impacts the US operations of Delphi. The company will survive the bankruptcy in some capacity somewhere.

What does this agreement actually cover? only Salaries, or Salaries and benefits? pensions?

Everything is still suppose to be business as usual for the time being. No immediate impact on plants or offices. Everyone is still required & expected to show up for work on Monday.

[goblue1999]

The Labor Force should shut them down. They need to send a message. What is owed to them, is owed.
Furthermore all  Delphi  employees should themselves file for Bankruptcy protection. Let the Financial  institutions bare the burden of loss.

[post="25627"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You are an idiot, there is no such thing as the "Labor Force". For every overpaid UAW worker that chooses to walk-out, there are 10 hard working Americans that will take their place, just ask NW mechanics.

The unionized workforce is such a tiny percentage of the American population, I don't know why we even waste our breath (or our typed characters).

[goblue1999]

Just to tackle a few issues:

"This is not about greed of a big company.."

Oh no? How about the company INCREASING SEVERANCE PAY TO EXECS? Argue that one.

"When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company…"

The company will not survive in my eyes. They are based in Troy. The company will literally "burn to the ground" if anything goes through. Not to say I support it....but if hundreds of thousands retiree's pentions are jacked with.....good luck.

Won't happen.

Delphi will have to keep paying those and the hourly wages under the current agreement.

Notice what's in bold? AGREEMENT!

Last but most certainly not least, the Editor of "Future Of The Union" for commenting on this web-site/forum.

It's very well appreciated and well known that you read what we, as AMERICANS feel on this issue!

As the Editor, I commend you.

[post="25921"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Wow, what a socialist!

I thought that this was an automotive enthusiast website. When did it become a sympathetic forum for coddling overpaid unionists that aren't willing to adapt like the rest of us?

All of you should stick to what you know, cars! Obviously macro-economics is not the strong point of many here.

[razoredge]

Wow, what a socialist!

I thought that this was an automotive enthusiast website.  When did it become a sympathetic forum for coddling overpaid unionists that aren't willing to adapt like the rest of us?

All of you should stick to what you know, cars!  Obviously macro-economics is not the strong point of many here.

[post="25972"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So whats your pay and contribution to society ....."idiot". Edited October 9, 2005 by razoredge

[Ghost Dog]

Wow, what a socialist!

I thought that this was an automotive enthusiast website.  When did it become a sympathetic forum for coddling overpaid unionists that aren't willing to adapt like the rest of us?

All of you should stick to what you know, cars!  Obviously macro-economics is not the strong point of many here.

[post="25972"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Why should someone in Retirement give up what they earned? Why should they accept destitution? They earned better then that.


The pension Fund should be the Primary debt. What ever scraps from breaking up the company can go to the lesser debts. If Delphi needs to be disolved to cover the pensions . So be it.


And if the same needs to be done to GM .....


Pensions are the primary debt!!!! Edited October 9, 2005 by Ghost Dog

[Hey Now]

Just to tackle a few issues:

"This is not about greed of a big company.."

Oh no? How about the company INCREASING SEVERANCE PAY TO EXECS? Argue that one.

Delphi only pays them the big $ if they leave, it was not a salary increase. That total $ amount is insignificant compared to the total $ debt at the company. If no one leaves, that money is never spent. Let's wait to see who leaves first. My guess is that there is greater financial incentives for them to stay and get Delphi profitable

"When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company…"

The company will not survive in my eyes. They are based in Troy. The company will literally "burn to the ground" if anything goes through. Not to say I support it....but if hundreds of thousands retiree's pentions are jacked with.....good luck.

Won't happen.

Delphi will survive for the immediate future, there is absolutely no way GM will let them close down due to the amount of parts they supply to the critical vehicles (full size trucks), even if it means GM having to pay billions. To get a new supplier to provide parts in huge numbers is not something done in weeks, months, or even years.

Delphi will have to keep paying those and the hourly wages under the current agreement.

Notice what's in bold? AGREEMENT!

That agreement can now be voided by a judge if he sees fit to do it. That's the point of bankruptcy, Delphi can no longer meet its current financial contracts with anyone. The UAW agreement is just another one of those contracts, it will be changed, if not voided, by the time this is all said and done. The line of thinking that the UAW is "untouchable" is part of the reason this whole mess is happening.

[mjd1001]

Just to tackle a few issues:

"This is not about greed of a big company.."

Oh no? How about the company INCREASING SEVERANCE PAY TO EXECS? Argue that one.

[post="25921"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That one is easy to argue, but once again you are not looking far enough into the problem. The financial problems at Delphi are vast, it is the enormity of the problems that is causing the bankruptcy problem. So what is a greater cause of those problems....Execs getting overpaid compared to their peers in other industries....or UAW workers getting more pay and benefits comapred to their peers?

I'm waiting for your responce to that.

[mjd1001]

Wow, what a socialist!

I thought that this was an automotive enthusiast website.  When did it become a sympathetic forum for coddling overpaid unionists that aren't willing to adapt like the rest of us?

All of you should stick to what you know, cars!  Obviously macro-economics is not the strong point of many here.

[post="25972"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Many don't want to hear this...but your point about this being a Macro-economics issue is 100% true. It is impossible to understand how or why this is happening and what will become if it unless you look at it form a Macro-Economics perspective.

Unless you are capable or willing to do that...arguing on either side will not come up with any kind of solution or closed ended explanation.