Future of the Union

[Hogans_Heroes]

Here is a Pdf of the ballyhooed Delphi-UAW letter: http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/uaw/o...updatefront.jpg http://www.futureoftheunion.com/docs/uaw/o...rupdateback.jpg

I have to say I've been sitting on similar stuff for a very very long time, but cannot go into detail.

This is coming to a head, folks. Pretty much everything's in the public domain now, whether it be (paid) Wall Street analyst reports, mainstream media, or "futureoftheunion". Automotive News is now reporting: http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=13500


There is going to be a lot of sensational reporting in the coming days and weeks. Yet what I think the situation requires is cool circumspection. Take a step back. $12/hr for line work? Wage and benefits packages of $18? Plenty of people would have you believe Delphi and Visteon were pushed out of the nest too early. That they were doomed to failure and that this is in and of itself a failure.

Now I cannot sit here in 2005 and attempt to ascertain with any certainty whether this could have been envisioned in the minds of GM and Ford executives half a decade prior. 1999, 2000: very different days. Ford did have to swallow a bitter pill earlier this year with the reaquisition of underperforming plants. GM, too, is going to take a significant hit (bodyblow!) no matter how this turns out. But - again - step back for a moment. Delphi has 180,000 employees. Dozens of thousands in the US. I can think of no plausible scenario under which the wage and benefit packages of these (GM Automotove Components Group / GM Delphi Automotive Systems) employees could have been brought down to competitive levels except under the very scenario which is unfolding before our eyes. Edited October 7, 2005 by Hogans_Heroes

[Guest Josh]

It's called mismanagement. Take these damn seat holders/board folk accountable for what they do and say and run with it. If they can't get the job done (READ; WAGONER) then get their asses out of the f&*cking seat. I'm so sick of hearing about the Unions and what SHOULD be done or should have BEEN done to what is going on now. Fiat got BILLIONS earlier this year...and it seems as if Delphi will too......all on Wagoner’s watch. Hold these God Damn (Yes I said it!) CEO's accountable for their actions and go from there. Change has to happen at the top. Why does the Union get charged for the process they build a vehicle in, and under what materials they build it under which is HANDED DOWN from the management staff? Unbelievable! This "movement" of non-Union workers will cause this site to close from non-functionality nor payment. It's ridiculous!

[Hogans_Heroes]

"It's called mismanagement. Take these damn seat holders/board folk accountable for what they do and say and run with it. If they can't get the job done (READ; WAGONER) then get their asses out of the f&*cking seat."


Josh, certainly there should be management accountability for the troubles of what was once the greatest company in the world. And GM is a case-study in mismanagement; I am in complete agreement with you there. While it does appear some of the concessions won by the UAW over the years from the automakers was bound to be unsustainable (at least in the case of inherited concessions at the spun-off parts makers), the speed at which some of these wins will need to be surrendered is certainly hastened by significant bungling and ineptness on the part of management.

By the way, I'm REALLY getting to like this website: http://futureoftheunion.com/docs/uaw/Delph...egotiations.pdf

[Guest Josh]

Third paragraph says it all: Elimination of Job Banks? Who in the hell are they kidding? Lay you off basically meaning they are screwed over with no help in sight? This is nothing more short of saying "If we go under....you're fucked." What is going on in this industry is nothing short than what the airlines have already faced and continue to face today. Insane.

[daves87rs]

Third paragraph says it all: Elimination of Job Banks? Who in the hell are they kidding? Lay you off basically meaning they are screwed over with no help in sight?

This is nothing more short of saying "If we go under....you're fucked."

What is going on in this industry is nothing short than what the airlines have already faced and continue to face today.

Insane.

[post="25103"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Very Sad-but true Josh...

I can tell you now that this is going to happen soon..and Gm is staying out of this..
and that is not counting the layoffs...which should reduce their staff by 20-30%...

There is nothing that the UAW can do....

They might be better off just letting Delphi just fall into chapter 11..

If they agree to terms with Delpli-GM may chase them down for even further
cuts...

this is going to get very nasty...

[Hogans_Heroes]

The always excellent Daniel Howes:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0510/07/A01-340908.htm

"GM isn't keen to bail out its offspring, nor can the union take the proffered "deal" and still claim to be a union."

"Never before have UAW workers been asked to absorb such Draconian cuts -- not in the dark days of the Chrysler bailout, the oil shocks of the 1970s or the periodic crunches since. The sickening part for those at Delphi trying to put in a day's work is that rejecting the demands won't make them go away, because they're considered "market rate" outside the UAW-Big Three bubble and are likely to return during a bloody bankruptcy."

"Whether yours is a union house or a management house, whether your grandpa was at Ford's Battle of the Overpass in '37 or managed a plant for GM in '87, the significance of an impending Delphi bankruptcy and GM's parallel talks with the UAW for health care concessions cannot be overstated."

"A cornerstone of 20th-century industrial America, whose labor helped vanquish the Axis powers in World War II and laid the foundation for unparalleled prosperity, is perilously close to crumbling under the pressure of late-20th-century mismanagement and 21st-century competition."


===> It's touching, really. Reading those words. But it was bound to happen. And, as he and everyone else is pointing out, it's going to happen. Via negotiated terms or settled terms. Like Josh was saying about the airlines, the steel companies... I just cannot help but compare General Motors to Bethlehem Steel. No one could ever believe it could fall. And of course, in the end, that was part of the problem. Perhaps now interested parties might acknowledge that GM, too, can fall (talk about there being no joy in Mudville).

[SimonDavid]

The last time I checked, America runs a capitalist economy That means that no worker has a right to a job, no salesman has a right to a sale and no company has a right to stay in business People are missing the real issue in this : It's the American consumer who will ultimately determine whether the GM "network" (GM/Delphi/UAW) stays in business. And American consumers have said quite clearly that they will not pay prices that cover that network's cost structure.

[Jazzhead]

Outside of some government workers, no one has golden benefits like the autoworkers do. The golden goose is dead or dying - done in not so much by GM mismanagement as by this wonderful, race-to-the-bottom, post-modern world of ours. Next year, Malcolm Bricklin brings in cars from China. Either make concessions or the jobs are gone. Stark choice, but that's reality. The domestic content sticker on the new Ford Fusion reads 30 percent. The UAW's best shot is to demand in exchange for those concessions that American assembly and parts plants remain open. Give the employer the cost certainty it needs in exchange for job security. No other deal makes a lick of sense at this point. And a refusal to deal is suicide.

[Clownzilla]

Outside of some government workers, no one has golden benefits like the autoworkers do.  The golden goose is dead or dying - done in not so much by GM mismanagement as by this wonderful, race-to-the-bottom, post-modern world of ours.    Next  year,  Malcolm Bricklin brings in cars from China. 

Either make concessions or the jobs are gone. Stark choice,  but that's reality. The domestic content sticker on the new Ford Fusion reads 30 percent.    The UAW's best shot is to demand in exchange for those concessions that American assembly and parts plants remain open.    Give the employer the cost certainty it needs in exchange for job security.  No other deal makes a lick of sense at this point.  And a refusal to deal is suicide.

[post="25150"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree! Unions must make concessions or their job will be gone. It seems like common sense. Unions sit and say things like "We need to do research to see if GM has problems" and "We will make concessions ONLY in the confines of our contract". How can union workers get money through a contract with a company that dosen't exist any more? It really dosen't matter who is at fault, if the union doesn't make drastic cuts, they will be toast. Of coarse bankrupcy will not totally dimolish the company, but would force them to take drastic measures to survive (aka. move all jobs over seas).

[CARBIZ]

All of this is depressing but inevitable. The heady days of America's industrial might are over. The '50s and '60s are gone. Either America will adjust to the New Economy or perish. I believe America will flourish, but there will be pain. Blue collar (and I am talking about non-skilled jobs, not plumbers or electricians!) are not worth $30 an hour, plain and simple. They never were, but as long as productivity increases masked those inflated wages, and the marketing might of the Big Three convinced the consumer to buy their products at any price, everything was okay. I don't know how America will get through this. If she loses most of her industrial capacity to the emerging markets, it would spell disaster in another armed conflict. Sadly, Chapter 11 may be the only solution to prove to the Union that GM is serious. Sort of a dress rehearsal to UAW contract negotiations upcoming!

[mjd1001]

The last time I checked, America runs a capitalist economy

That means that no worker has a right to a job, no salesman has a right to a sale and no company has a right to stay in business

People are missing the real issue in this :

It's the American consumer who will ultimately determine whether the GM "network" (GM/Delphi/UAW) stays in business.
 
And American consumers have said quite clearly that they will not pay prices that cover that network's cost structure.

[post="25133"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Actually, the fact that what you said is not entirely true is the problem here.

For some of America, what you said is true.

For other parts of America, there is no such thing as a capitalist economy. The automakers, workers, UAW live in that world (among others not important to this discussion). The Union contracts and the way that BOTH GM and the UAW have structured them have made them a socialistic business.

Now the problem is that in the era of Globalization (where the entire world slides more toward capitalism), an industry entrenched in socialism will have trouble surviving.

[mjd1001]

I don't know how America will get through this.  If she loses most of her industrial capacity to the emerging markets, it would spell disaster in another armed conflict.

[post="25166"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

A few months ago I saw or read an interesting quote on what you brought up here, I cannot give the author credit though because I forgot where it came from.

When presented with the question about the continuing loss of the USA's manufacturing base...and what that could mean in a future global war, the response was "We'll just throw a service contract at the enemy".

Sad but true.

[Clownzilla]

All of this is depressing but inevitable.  The heady days of America's industrial might are over.  The '50s and '60s are gone.  Either America will adjust to the New Economy or perish.  I believe America will flourish, but there will be pain.
  Blue collar (and I am talking about non-skilled jobs, not plumbers or electricians!) are not worth $30 an hour, plain and simple.  They never were, but as long as productivity increases masked those inflated wages, and the marketing might of the Big Three convinced the consumer to buy their products at any price, everything was okay.
I don't know how America will get through this.  If she loses most of her industrial capacity to the emerging markets, it would spell disaster in another armed conflict.
  Sadly, Chapter 11 may be the only solution to prove to the Union that GM is serious.  Sort of a dress rehearsal to UAW contract negotiations upcoming!

[post="25166"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, we are not (and probably never will be again) the industrial powerhouse we once were. Face it, countries like China have us beat when it comes to factory work. This is economic evolution folks. China will probably one day be in the same situation we are and then some place like China now will become the China of the future....and on, and on, and on.... The USA is not in major trouble if we play our cards right. The USA must evolve into a information, service, and engineering society. We can be in the position we once were when we were in industry. Instead of a worker turning a wrench in a factory, a worker would punch a key on a keyboard. Industrial countries like China are not going away, and the USA has to adjust for that.

[Simon C]

Revised front page of the Detroit Free Press, is that Delphi "approved a separation agreement for each of its 21 U.S. officers that bumps up their pay if they lose their jobs"
http://www.freep.com/index.htm

I think that's sweet. We'll take money from the UAW and give to ... US!!!
Kind of pisses me off!!

[evok]

I do not have time right now to go into details right now, but deflationary economics are playing themselves out.

[Guest Josh]

I just think that people have no idea how big this is and how disasterious this is to the entire business, to every working persons rights, Union or not. If the UAW gives in to these ridiculous demands they would be giving back everything our grandparents fought for, literally fought for over the years. Only to have a sharp decline in profits due to piss poor management cause the company bankruptcy? How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the line. How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and applaud for a final action being taken. In the mean time there's been a mission to destory all things Unions and worker rights. Almost done, airlines were the latest, auto's are the next.

[mjd1001]

How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the line.

How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and applaud for a final action being taken.

[post="25246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

They say it's about time because in many cases, the same thing has already happened to them.

[Croc]

Actually Josh, I think it's great news for the industry. Not everything is a fight, not everything is an adversarial position. The most successful companies are the ones where employees and employers work together with pride toward a common product...the unions have not done that...ever. They have always looked out for their own best interests. That was good and all back in the day, but unfair labor practices are virtually outlawed in this day and age and the unions just add another layer of bureaucracy to the whole process. Josh, the emotional argument that these are lives and livlihoods at stake really doesn't do it with me. Face it, every industry has experienced this recently. Why should unionized autoworkers be above this? Do you want to blame Wagoner and Smith for this? I don't think so. The unions have brought it on themselves, and the writing has been on the wall. I don't want to make a sweeping generalization that autoworkers are ignorant, because they are not. Anyone, in any business, is ignorant if they are only a very specialized worker. One must present a portfolio of job skills to be competitive as an employee, and anyone who tried to buck this is, in my opinion, ignorant--autoworker or not. I don't want to come across like a jackass on this because I know it hits pretty close to home for you, but at the same time the writing was on the wall...this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[rkmdogs]

I just think that people have no idea how big this is and how disasterious this is to the entire business, to every working persons rights, Union or not.

If the UAW gives in to these ridiculous demands they would be giving back everything our grandparents fought for, literally fought for over the years. Only to have a sharp decline in profits due to piss poor management cause the company bankruptcy?

How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the line.

How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and applaud for a final action being taken.

In the mean time there's been a mission to destory all things Unions and worker rights. Almost done, airlines were the latest, auto's are the next.

[post="25246"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The philosophy of the auto unions for years has been one of confrontation, not
co-operation. The old saying goes, one hand washes the other. That philosophy has not been upheld in any contempory union/management meetings. Instead
it has been,"what can or will you give ME!"-- on both sides.
Welcome to the real world of reality, where we now have new players, China,
Korea, and yes even Japan, who do not play by our "old rules".
While consumers were locked in to a limited market choice, you could play fast and loose with these rules, but now that these third world players have come to the marketplace, it is time to re-think the rules.
I can remember one time Iococca telling the beligerant Belvidere,IL. plant, I
have 2000 jobs @ $18.00/hr(or something like that) and 0 jobs @ $22.00/hr!
That's reality!
I was one of those caught in a market change, with 3 hours notice to not let the
door hit me in the ass on the way out--- the company was "downsizing"!..........
And nobody bailed me out!
I agree that some of these mega bonuses and salary differentials that have
existed in American companies are rediculous!
But don't close down a company because of past bad decisions..... learn from them, and FIX IT...... and the fix has to start somewhere, too bad it is now.
I do agree, that the bleeding should be even...... on both sides of the table,
if the company is going to continue to exist.
Don't forget every employee is also a consumer, and without a paycheck,
he can't consume! :(

[bowtie_dude]

When our grandfathers worked at GM, Ford and Dodge, the companies were raking in millions a year, they own 90% of America. Well guess what, its not 1953 anymore. :rolleyes:

[evok]

The auto business is in a deflationary cycle and has been for some years now. The auto companies are under a negative pricing situation. In real terms car prices are coming down and OEMs are forced to take cost out of the vehicle. Josh this has very little to do with mis-management but market conditions have been changing and the US companies have done a lot to cut cost and work within the frame work of the UAW contracts to make that happen. But there is a point that is being reached where there needs to be a drastic change to the cost structure of these companies. This is not an option but a must if Visteon, Dephi, GM, Ford are to survive. Other smaller suppliers that have UAW workers do not pay anywhere close to the wages that the above companies pay. The smaller suppliers pay in the 15 -10 range. Think about it this way, either the UAW agrees to the Delphi demands now, or through bandruptcy later. If not Delphi could take all those jobs to Mexico or other low cost nation or region. The realities are for the UAW workers at Delphi, do you want a job or not? Edited October 7, 2005 by evok

[CARBIZ]

Anyone who has followed my posts in the past knows that I am not a big union supporter and I believe that a person should rise or fall based on their own strengths and skills; however, I have to add that I sometimes shake my head when I see what various Boards do. As a group of people hired to represent the owners (shareholders), the Board has sweeping powers over the company that they preside. A case in point: Sears Canada just sold off their credit card division, paid a special dividend and then laid off 1,000 workers. Now I don't claim to know what is going on inside Sears, but if they just sold off their most profitable division for a big chunk of change then paid off their shareholders - what is going to be left over to ward off Wal-Mart? If costs must be cut and workers laid off, why bribe the shareholders? Next, we're going to see Sears going under because Wal-Mart kicked their ass! I don't know. As a layperson on the outside, it just doesn't make sense to me. It certainly doesn't seem fair to the 1,000 workers, but then "fair" has little to do with the free market. Unfortunately, the owners of the company do have the right to run the company as they see fit - no matter how badly the rest of us think they may or may not be doing. The unions have every right to oppose clawbacks or cutbacks also as they see fit. But if somebody doesn't do something soon, both the Board members and the UAW brass will be putting out their resumes.

[greg_nate]

>>I just think that people have no idea how big this is and how disasterious this is >>to the entire business, to every working persons rights, Union or not. Correct, it will affect all...but not disasterous for all. Some it will benefit, and not just the stock holders. Someone's loss is always someone else's gain. >>If the UAW gives in to these ridiculous demands they would be giving back >>everything our grandparents fought for, literally fought for over the years. This is not contextually true, and appeals to the emotions rather than historical accurateness. What our grandfathers (mine too, by the way) fought against was exploitation of the worker. Large corporations were making billions and the workers were being worked to death for pennies a week. Literally, people were dying for money that wouldn't put food on the table. As the country evolved from a farming society to an industrial one, cheap labor - cheap meaning exploitable, abounded. Families sold their farms and moved to the city not because they wanted to, but because they were forced to. Big agriculture put the family farm out of business. Knocking at the door of the industrialists were the starving families willing to work to death....and that's exactly what the industrialists did to them. Fast forward to today's society, things are much different. The Unionized worker makes more than anyone else. The big corporations aren't drowning in profit...they are sinking in debt and losses. Today's worker is *HARDLY* exploited. C'mon now. Heck, they get paid *NOT* to work. What do think our grandfathers would say about the whining of today's workers? They'd tell us to shut up, then beat the crap out of us for being lazy, entitled, selfish pricks. Our grandfathers didn't even have Social Security. There's no way you can compare workers from 3 generations ago, to our workforce today. No way, no how. We don't have a work force. We have a "want force". >>How can anybody in their right mind not see this? How can people sit there and >>say "Good, it's about time!" when these are peoples lives that are at stake >>here. Nevermind the fact that you feel UAW workers are "stupid" or "ignorant" >>but mind the fact that peoples lives, their day to day means and their means to >>provide a meal for their family and a roof over their heads is literally on the >>line. When it means the destruction of a huge corporation, I have no qualms in knocking the Union demands. Back when GM had no competition, the Unions could claim their fair share of the pie. Today however, GM has competition, and is fighting for its survival. Their competition makes as good as or better products for less. Period. I don't like to admit it, but I can't ignore the truth. Furthermore, those Americans who are working in Toyota shops are glad to have their jobs. They are making fairly comparable wages, and are by no means at all exploited. Socioeconomic conditions change. So must the business practices. I don't think anyone really believes Union workers are stupid and ignorant. I don't. >>How can people applaud that? It's appaling to me, and hey....when corporate >>America starts to hold their CEO's accountable for their actions I'll sit back and >>applaud for a final action being taken. >>In the mean time there's been a mission to destory all things Unions and >>worker rights. Almost done, airlines were the latest, auto's are the next. This is going to seem like I am talking out of both sides of my neck, but I agree wtih you here. CEO's *DO* need to be held accountable. I also believe that there has been and always will be a current to break the strangleholds of the Unions. Its in the interest of Big Business. Its just that as the ebb and tide of economics rolls along, each party in the struggle will have to give up some of its territory. Today, the Unions are going to have to give a little in order to survive. greg

[razoredge]

This will be one of the ugliest pages in American history. We have been telling how this day was coming for decades. Our corporations started this direction decades before they even began selling the "global" plan. Its not survivable by any of the parties invloved so all and any effort is pointless. Good job America. Keep patting yourself on your so called "multi skilled :lol: " back. Must be nice living on that cloud. Everybodys going to get their turn eating this pile of shit. What goes around comes around.

[bowtie_dude]

This will be one of the ugliest pages in American history. We have been telling how this day was coming for decades. Our corporations started this direction decades before they even began selling the "global" plan.

Its not survivable by any of the parties invloved so all and any effort is pointless. Good job America. Keep patting yourself on your so called "multi skilled  :lol: " back.

Must be nice living on that cloud. Everybodys going to get their turn eating this pile of shit. What goes around comes around.

[post="25288"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Why don't you make a post that means something every now and then? You know, instead of throwing around hyperboles.

[razoredge]

I said what I meant, its just way beyond of any surface mud puddle you could comprehend. Back off !

[NauticalGopher]

I am not in the auto industry, but from my point of view blame can be shared equally among all parties. Times have changed and neither side wants to admit it. But at the same time it's hard to sympathize with the union when their web page states the following goals... We stand against union management cooperation and their joint activities programs. We stand for democratic socialism in the UAW and the United States of America. We stand for the abolishment of the capitalist system of exploitation and wage slavery. We oppose the one party system of capitalists who call themselves Democrats and Republicans. NG

[bowtie_dude]

I said what I meant, its just way beyond of any surface mud puddle you could comprehend. Back off !

[post="25295"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Ok, so you meant nothing? Glad we're clear on that.

Nonsensical posts get nonsensical replies. You didn't say anything or prove any kind of point. You threw out a slew of general statements about roads and karma.

Why don't you EXPLAIN what you meant?

[razoredge]

This will be one of the ugliest pages in American history. We have been telling how this day was coming for decades. Our corporations started this direction decades before they even began selling the "global" plan.

Its not survivable by any of the parties invloved so all and any effort is pointless. Good job America. Keep patting yourself on your so called "multi skilled  :lol: " back.

Must be nice living on that cloud. Everybodys going to get their turn eating this pile of shit. What goes around comes around.

[post="25288"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

This is all I wanted to say - get it? got it ? There was not one single statement in here that was calling for your stupid ass to start some kind of fight over. I said all I wanted to say. I have said plenty in the past, I care not to get into again. Is that some kind of problem for you ? Go grind your work force hating ax elsewhere, Im already bled out, long before you even began to think you knew everything about everything. One again

Back off !

[bowtie_dude]

Geeze, you're a bit edgy, today.

[razoredge]

Whats your problem ? If Im not mistaken you are trying to start trouble. What did I write in that thread that indicated I was deserving of "trouble " ? Furthermore what kind of man starts trouble from the safety of a mask ?

[bowtie_dude]

Whats your problem ? If Im not mistaken you are trying to start trouble.

What did I write in that thread that indicated I was deserving of "trouble " ?

Furthermore what kind of man starts trouble from the safety of a mask ?

[post="25316"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I never insinuated you were starting trouble. I asked for some clarification on your post, some reasoning, something I could form a rebuttal to, and you bit my head off. Since thats all you wanted to say, I now know that you never intended to add anything to the conversation, you only intended to rattle a few cages and got pissed when someone rattled yours.

Don't get all hot and bothered because I asked you to explain yourself, its just a gearhead forum. ;)

[razoredge]

Why don't you make a post that means something every now and then?  You know, instead of throwing around hyperboles.

[post="25291"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

OK, lets go back. What is this ? OK ? I see ?

So now that youve been dishonest as to your origional intentions of repling to my simple post. Suppose you break down the sentences of said post and explain to me what was so mind boggling about them.

You intended no rebuttal, just degredation and looking to start trouble. Theres nothing to rebutt anyhow. It was simple statements as to the outcome of this particular problem and stated that all others will feel this same bite within their lifetime most likely again for many of us. You can like this "new" "changed" way if you like. I choose not to.

So hows about you back off !

[I hope GMRULES again]

Okay I'm stepping in to break this up. Back to your corners bowtie dude and razoredge, its Friday afternoon guys, go have a beer. :lol:

[Hey Now]

Boo hoo.. you won't see me shed a tear.  Most of those jobs are only worth $10-15/hour anyway.  These people are so overpaid it's not even funny.  White collar workers have been dealing with this since the recession in the early '90's.  I've heard countless stories of people with years at their company's only to be let go with nothing.  No one cried for them.  The simple fact is take it or the company goes under.  It's down to individuals to learn and grow to protect themselves if they lose a job so they can find something else.  The days of expecting a comapny to watch out for your interests ended years ago.  It's only now that union people are waking up to this reality.

[post="25165"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I couldn't have said it any better. The average American worker has been getting laid off with no warning at all for the last 6 years....walk into work one day and there's the pink slip on your desk, no warning, no negotiating.

Why should the UAW have it any different? What makes them better than the other American workers in other professions?

They have been sheltered from the real world for a long long time. Its about time they have to face the problems that the rest of America is having. They will get no sympathy from me.

[razoredge]

Well folks while I have read very closely and repetedly if necessary each and every post made on most of these topics, at least the ones I have participated in. This time I will stay off the arrogant comments made by some about whos worht what and whos not. I wont question age and real life experiance in paying bills and makeing a paycheck last let alone try to save or get ahead toward some goal. I certianly wont say that members of organized labor cant save and get ahead. Im sure that they can..... which is as it should be. I wont question the job of the "only worth" crowd, or if they have ever tried to get by on 400 a week which is the wages just suggested by many poster. Well forget all of that, its pointless, its the, if you havent been there problem or the cant see it from my house problem and we all know no one wants to open their eyes when all is peachy at home.

Ill also ignore the senceless squandering of capitol by poor management decisions. I will only pursue this from the standpoint that all us DMF's are either over paid or only getting what we deserve as is the case of the unorganized sector.

This is what I will say now, that I have always known durring all these arguments. Something I have known for years.

There is nothing that can fix N.American industries. Even the pitiful wages suggested by some. Even take away the health insurance TOTALLY and screw the retirement plans, do one of those up to 2% of contributions like most of the non organized companys do. They know the workers are living week to week so it will only cost them pennys to match contributions because workers just dont have it to contribute. Throw all that away. Get people to do all this work for $10-12 an hours with no benefits and companys will still not be able to compete with these countries you are all so loyal toward.

It really really is that simple, there is no fix, the whole thing is just a hopeful holding on hoping it will go away or iron out but it wont, it never will. Capitolism worked for America when it was just America, now capitolism in its extreme is killing America. We are entering into Asian/Middle east checkmate. I just wish I knew what all the children are going to do for work.

[razoredge]

I couldn't have said it any better.  The average American worker has been getting laid off with no warning at all for the last 6 years....walk into work one day and there's the pink slip on your desk, no warning, no negotiating.

Why should the UAW have it any different?  What makes them better than the other American workers in other professions? 

They have been sheltered from the real world for a long long time.  Its about time they have to face the problems that the rest of America is having.  They will get no sympathy from me.

[post="25330"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Now for the head scratcher ?

So you feel this is justified ? You feel that its OK for all these cuts and layoffs ? You are saying the last 6 years should be compounded and more N.Americans should suffer ? You are thinking that the Unions want sympathy ? No the Unions wanted all of Americas work force to stand up and not play into this game of corporate and wallstreet greed.

Ive said this before but somehow no one absorbs it. Must be something wrong with my brain. Well here goes again.

You just said

What makes them better than the other American workers in other professions?

I say a more adequate question is

What makes me worth so little ? How come we dont have it better ?

Do you feel that there is a lack of capitol in this country ?

[Hey Now]

Now for the head scratcher ?

So you feel this is justified ? You feel that its OK for all these cuts and layoffs ? You are saying the last 6 years should be compounded and more N.Americans should suffer ? You are thinking that the Unions want sympathy ? No the Unions wanted all of Americas work force to stand up and not play into this game of corporate and wallstreet greed.

Ive said this before but somehow no one absorbs it. Must be something wrong with my brain. Well here goes again.

You just said
I say a more adequate question is
Do you feel that there is a lack of capitol in this country ?

[post="25336"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Do I feel its ok for cuts and layoffs? Hmmm, without going off into another tangent about just cuts to the UAW/Auto Industry, cuts and layoffs are sometimes necessary for the health of a company. I'm mean if the company goes down, everyone gets cut and everyone loses. Sacrifice the few for the good of the many. This is a general statement for businesses, obvioulsly the auto industry isn't your average business, unlike the vast majority of other American businesses.

That being said, cuts and layoffs suck and nobody should have to go through them, but this is part of life these days, period. The UAW is the last little part of the American workforce that has not had to deal with the current problems facing American workers. Now they are. Well, welcome to the real world, it sucks right now, join the club, here's your t-shirt. Sure, the UAW loses membership every year, but those all come from retirements and voluntary leaves, but nobody gets let go.

As for this:

What makes me worth so little ? How come we dont have it better ?

I am from the school of thinking that my wage and my wage increases should be based on 1) my experieince and 2) how well I continue do my job. I do not want someone I have never met to go into a meeting and negotiate my wage increase for the next 4 years, I want to either earn or not earn that based on my quality of work. If I want it better or think I'm worth more, I work harder or get an education or find a new job. In the UAW, you get what you get no matter how hard you work or how much better quality your work is compared to others.

As for this:

and not play into this game of corporate and wallstreet greed.

Guess what, all GM employees, management and grunts received zero raises last year and probably will not recieve any again for this year's work. Executives' bonuses are gone too. The UAW workforce vastly outnumbers the salaried workforce, so when people demand that executives take pay cuts too, even if that happened, the total $ is very small compared to the total money problems at the company. It would be more of a symbolic gesture than an actual fix.

[Hey Now]

I'm sure that there are many UAW employees that would take a benefits cut if it meant they could keep their jobs. You people always talk about the UAW like every member is a pompous money grubbing ass-hole. It's the Constitutional Convention delegates at the UAW that decide what's what and who's who, not the actual workers.

[post="25349"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Couldn't agree more. Also know that 95% of the UAW workers are hard working people. But on the other hand, the UAW "Constitutional Convention" as you put it, should be representing those people's views. If most of the workforce is willing to take a benefits cut as you say, then that's what they should take to the table, not the hardliner approach of "we will give up nothing and let this company go under". When I read articles that interview the average UAW line worker and they say "we can pay more for healthcare if it means helping the company survive", why can't the negotiators share this view? If I'm part of the UAW and paying $X per month for someone to represent my views and I see something I disagree with, I let my voice be heard, because chances are there are many others that feel the same. Who's fault is it if UAW leadership doesn't share the views of the majority of its workers?

[razoredge]

Well good job blowing off the points I was trying to make.

OK everybody, we must take cuts, we must work for the rates of Korea and India. Its only fair because there have been cuts every where else. ESPECIALLY IN THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY

My boss kicks me in the head everyday, how dare you make it through the day without a good kick in the head. THats just not right, we should all be kicked in the head everyday, sooner of later one of us goes down so that another can live. I guess the lack of real war in recent decades has turned to war in the workplace.

So with driving that point home which I really get now " its that welcome to the real world". Are the business's that are choking the life out of the work force in this country living in the real world ? Well never mind, we know they are not the problem its those damn uneducated blue collar workers and their lack of skills and lack of time for that further education while raising their familys and paying bills. God Damn them to hell ! Its the real world ! What world is that ? Is that this manufactured new world a bunch of wealthy suits are stuffing down our throats ? They say this is the real world so therefor it is ? I get it.

Well to get back to my other post. In regards to this proposal " I'm sure that there are many UAW employees that would take a benefits cut if it meant they could keep their jobs" yep that would be a bandaid. That would delay the inevitable thereby slowing the end results of this "new" way. This is actually a very good thing. The slow painful death numbs the public vision to the reality of the end results. If this all happens too fast the shit will really hit the fan. Its much better to drag this out over decades so it is eventually accepted. the gas fiasco over the past 3 years is a smaller version of this approach. We have been broke to the fact that gas was going to get expensive, now they could just go to 5-6 bucks a gallon and no one that counts would care. Of course all your $10-12 and hour worthless pieces of crap would be scrambling to make rent in Cracktown but hey....cant see that from wallstreet.

American pride :unsure:

[Croc]

While what you say is true regarding the uppers of the unions calling the shots, the sheeple still strike when they're told to. If I didn't support it, I'd break it. People need to pull their heads out of their asses and start thinking for themselves.

[Hey Now]

Well good job blowing off the points I was trying to make.

[post="25367"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Well good job trying to put words in my mouth.

OK everybody, we must take cuts, we must work for the rates of Korea and India. Its only fair because there have been cuts every where else. ESPECIALLY IN THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY

Go ask the Northwest Airline Mechanics how well taking the hardline of no concessions worked for them at the bargaining table.

Are the business's that are choking the life out of the work force in this country living in the real world ?

Yes. This is the way it is now in America. Why it is now this way is a whole other thread topic. Got a job that is choking you? Evaluate your financial/personal/professional/family situation and either live with it or change.

we know they are not the problem its those damn uneducated blue collar workers and their lack of skills and lack of time for that further education while raising their familys and paying bills.?

You make it sound like working, rasing a family, and going to school is some kind of an impossible feat. Guess what, its been done by many, many people, including myself and 3 friends I have and that's with 40+ hours/week at work. And another surprise: if you're in the UAW, guess who pays for your tuition? That's right, the company, you just provide the time to pass the classes.

Its the real world ! What world is that ? Is that this manufactured new world a bunch of wealthy suits are stuffing down our throats ? They say this is the real world so therefor it is ? I get it.

The real world is the world in which people lose jobs everyday due to the flow of the economy, not one in which they are in the 1% of American workers that never have to worry about losing their jobs (drinking on the job? theft? insubordination? Nope, none will get you fired in the UAW)

[razoredge]

"consessions" what ever that means, wont save this countrys national product, nothing will. Generations will fall by the way side while we are waiting for the third world to get to the standard of living that exists in this country and thats if inflation in this counrty stops now. Perhaps if your unhappy with what your fellow Americans are earning you should do their job yourself ? Its obviously something that needs to get done, if not the job wouldnt be there. So jump on board and get the job done ! Nothing to it ya know. Now that your not doing the school/skill thing you have that extra time to pitch in and contribute. With all those special skills you could probably figure out a better way to get it done. "hello, bagdad, could you please send us some immigrants, this job sucks!" Dont assume Im a employee, Im not a employee, Im self employed, no benefits, no insurance, get paid only for exactly what I produce. Standing around the water cooler = 0. On line durring work hours = 0. Paid vacation =0, retirement = 0 I stand to benefit from none of this whatsoever so unlike many of the wallstreet heros here I have no hidden agenda. Nothing to benefit from the destruction of the blue collor work force and nothing to gain on good Union contracts. I just see things for what they are and this state that NAmerica has come to be sucks. The attitude of most of the posters here proves it.

[razoredge]

Yea, BTW just what is a 40 hour week ?

[Hey Now]

"consessions" what ever that means, wont save this countrys national product, nothing will.

[post="25388"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"Concessions" means having to give up something you want, not necessarily taking something away that already exists. Asking for a $0.50/hour increase and only getting a $0.20/hour increase is a concession.

Perhaps if your unhappy with what your fellow Americans are earning you should do their job yourself ? Its obviously something that needs to get done, if not the job wouldnt be there. So jump on board and get the job done ! Nothing to it ya know. Now that your not doing the school/skill thing you have that extra time to pitch in and contribute. With all those special skills you could probably figure out a better way to get it done. "hello, bagdad, could you please send us some immigrants, this job sucks!"

I was unhappy at what my fellow Americans were making compared to me. So I went back to school and got a better job that pays more, now I'm happy and can provide a better living for others. Family comes first. Joe Everyman can't change the world himself, only for the people around him.

I stand to benefit from none of this whatsoever so unlike many of the wallstreet heros here I have no hidden agenda.

The closest I ever came to Wall Street is when I visited NYC when I was 9. I own one suit that is used for weddings and funerals.

Yea, BTW just what is a 40 hour week ?

That's why I put "40+". And ironically, a 40 hour work week is exactly to the minute what UAW workers have if there is no overtime. In fact, their 8 hours start when the line starts moving and stops when the line stops, all of which is computer controlled. And guess what? The 8 hours includes their breaks and lunchtime, yep, their breaks/lunches are paid breaks, which if memory serves, equals a free hour every day.

[Guest Josh]

Lets not make this dirty or take this to a place we don't want it to be. We can all be adults without accusing somebody else of attacking them. Thanks.

[CaddyXLR-V]

"consessions" what ever that means, wont save this countrys national product, nothing will. Generations will fall by the way side while we are waiting for the third world to get to the standard of living that exists in this country and thats if inflation in this counrty stops now.

Perhaps if your unhappy with what your fellow Americans are earning you should do their job yourself ? Its obviously something that needs to get done, if not the job wouldnt be there. So jump on board and get the job done ! Nothing to it ya know. Now that your not doing the school/skill thing you have that extra time to pitch in and contribute. With all those special skills you could probably figure out a better way to get it done. "hello, bagdad, could you please send us some immigrants, this job sucks!"

Dont assume Im a employee, Im not a employee, Im self employed, no benefits, no insurance, get paid only for exactly what I produce. Standing around the water cooler = 0. On line durring work hours = 0. Paid vacation =0, retirement = 0

I stand to benefit from none of this whatsoever so unlike many of the wallstreet heros here I have no hidden agenda. Nothing to benefit from the destruction of the blue collor work force and nothing to gain on good Union contracts. I just see things for what they are and this state that NAmerica has come to be sucks. The attitude of most of the posters here proves it.

[post="25388"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The fact is, there would still be a ton of demand for those jobs by non-union workers, even if they only got paid 1/2 what the union workers make, and probably have the same skill level as well. And your analogy of getting you getting kicked in the head so everyone else should too is a little off. It's more like you get some sexual benefits from your boss, so the rest of the workers should too, while in reality none of you should be getting those benefits. Edited October 8, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[evok]

Folks: You are witnessing history. This may be the biggest systemic restructuring of the cost structure in the history of the US auto biz if Delphi doesn't flinch.

[Guest Josh]

Delphi will flinch....and the Union won't give. The reasoning is simple. Even with these concessions the Union would make, Delphi would still have to file for Chapter 11 because GM has refused to help them. There's no point for the Union to agree to this because General Motors has already said they will not help bail out Delphi. This has been years in the making. I'm sorry but if Delphi files for Chapter 11 it's their own fault.

[evok]

Delphi will flinch....and the Union won't give. The reasoning is simple. Even with these concessions the Union would make, Delphi would still have to file for Chapter 11 because GM has refused to help them.

There's no point for the Union to agree to this because General Motors has already said they will not help bail out Delphi.

This has been years in the making. I'm sorry but if Delphi files for Chapter 11 it's their own fault.

[post="25411"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The worst option for the UAW is Ch. 11. Than everything is on the table and what Delphi proposed will actualize. This is real this time. The UAW can't win this one.