Multilinguists... Ayudame! Aiutammi! Aidez-moi!

[Paolino]

Do you guys have a good deal of interference with knowing many languages?

I mean, I'm taking Spanish, it's my fourth language, and I'm just at wits end here... I'm spelling common words in English wrong and speaking Italian in class.

I mean, I'm doing the basics such as writing: quale, quando, che, when it should be cuale, cuando, que, etc.

I spelled photo on the scrabble board as foto.

I can NOT get the accent down in Spanish at all. Then I get frustrated and curse at the professor in Italian. Fortunately, he finds it funny.

Does it go away? I never had it this bad when I was learning French or Italian.

And the worst.. I though it'd be easiest to relate everything to Italian, but it seems Spanish is closer to Sicilian than it is to Italian.

Now I'm rambling.

[AAS]

Well... I learned Armenian first (because I am), then Spanish (because I was born in Mexico) and finally English (because I moved to the US) by the age of 5. Living in the US forced me to primarily speak English, so I'm always slow to get into the mindset anytime I start speeking Armenian or Spanish (I'm even slow to speak Spanish until I get back into the mindset).

Anyway... Learning the languages so early basically negated any issues I have with accents, though others have told me I have a very slight "mutt" accent. But back in my Armenian HS, I often found myself mixing up the Spanish and Armenian. So yeah... it sucks, and I think it finally went away, but it could be because I speak less Armenian since graduating HS.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I had that problem twice in my life. I learned Latin 1st, then Italian, no problem there. Then I learned Spanish and that's where my problems began, there is not much difference between otto and ocho, cuantos anos or quanti anni, then one day it just clicked but I learned Castilian Spanish, which is like speaking Spanish with a lisp. I then had problems speaking Castilian Spanish in South America, first they don't use Vosotros and the accents are way different such as in the word llama which I pronounced like yama, in South America the same word is pronounced like jama and in Puerto Rico they for some reason don't pronunce the rolling RRRRRs, they for some reason become silent R's. But this too became second nature once I lived in Mexico and Ecuador.

Good luck Paulie, I'm sure you will get it, it just takes a little time and then one day it will just click. For me I know I have a language down pat, once I dream in that language.

Edited July 24, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I know some basic Spanish and, shall we say, a few choice words in Italian.

[Paolino]

I had that problem twice in my life. I learned Latin 1st, then Italian, no problem there. Then I learned Spanish and that's where my problems began, there is not much difference between otto and ocho, cuantos anos or quanti anni, then one day it just clicked but I learned Castilian Spanish, which is like speaking Spanish with a lisp. I then had problems speaking Castilian Spanish in South America, first they don't use Vosotros and the accents are way different such as in the word llama which I pronounced like yama, in South America the same word is pronounced like jama and in Puerto Rico they for some reason don't pronunce the rolling RRRRRs, they for some reason become silent R's. But this too became second nature once I lived in Mexico and Ecuador.

Good luck Paulie, I'm sure you will get it, it just takes a little time and then one day it will just click. For me I know I have a language down pat, once I dream in that language.

See, that's just it.. 11 years ago I took 1 semester of Spanish and the teacher taught us Castilian... had NO problem pronouncing things. This professor wants us to speak with a Latin American accent, and therefore no lisp. I think I was better with the lisp, because it differentiated it more.

My other beef is that I'm taking this class with people who are fulfilling a requirement. I sit in the back of the room and twiddle my thumbs because 90% of the grammar is identical to Italian. The students were angry because I was the only one who had no problem with the imperfect and preterit, and I tried to explain to them the uses are identical in Italian. Uffa!

YJ, if there are any other "choice" words in Italian you care to know, let me know! LOL

[DetroitNut90]

I have a very blunt American accent when I speak Spanish. Most of my trouble comes from words with the double-R--I sound like a blender when I try to say a word with a double-R. Reading and writing in Spanish are my strengths.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

YJ, if there are any other "choice" words in Italian you care to know, let me know! LOL

Don't be surprised if you get a PM out of the blue sometime, taking you up on your offer.

A choice word (or would it be a set?) I know in Italian and have down pat and ready for immediate use is "pezzo di merda." I don't think anyone needs to translate that.

What I do find interesting is how close the word "merda" is to it's French equivalent, which would be "merde" I think. (Well, I guess I know a dirty French word, too! )

Take all misspellings, etc., with a grain of salt. My foreign languages are pretty rusty.

Edited July 24, 2007 by YellowJacket894

[Paolino]

Don't be surprised if you get a PM out of the blue sometime, taking you up on your offer.

A choice word (or would it be a set?) I know in Italian and have down pat and ready for immediate use is "pezzo di merda." I don't think anyone needs to translate that.

What I do find interesting is how close the word "merda" is to it's French equivalent, which would be "merde" I think. (Well, I guess I know a dirty French word, too! )

Take all misspellings, etc., with a grain of salt. My foreign languages are pretty rusty.

No problem. Mierda in Spanish.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

No problem. Mierda in Spanish.

Thanks.

Again, I'm dumbstruck by how close a lot of words, ill-intent or not, only require an alternate spelling to become interchangeable for that language. It also reminds me of how close Italian and Spanish are (and I also think Portuguese is also very closely related to the two as well), but how each culture and the people who speak it can really make their similarities almost vanish.

[Oracle of Delphi]

No problem. Mierda in Spanish.

Merda in Portuguese!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Thanks.

Again, I'm dumbstruck by how close a lot of words, ill-intent or not, only require an alternate spelling to become interchangeable for that language. It also reminds me of how close Italian and Spanish are (and I also think Portuguese is also very closely related to the two as well), but how each culture and the people who speak it can really make their similarities almost vanish.

That is because all these languages are children on the ancient Roman language of Latin, as is Romanian!

Edited July 24, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Guest YellowJacket894]

That is because all these languages are children on the ancient Roman language of Latin, as is Romanian!

Of course.

... Why didn't I think of that before. x_X

[DetroitNut90]

That is because all these languages are children on the ancient Roman language of Latin, as is Romanian!

A truly boring language to learn...one year of Latin was enough to make me want to crawl under a rock.

[Oracle of Delphi]

A truly boring language to learn...one year of Latin was enough to make me want to crawl under a rock.

Really, you do know that the majority of English words have Latin roots? Some words are actual Latin words such as exit, super, circus, recipe, agenda, ultimatum, versus, plus, minus, percent, the list goes on and on. You speak Latin every day, you just don't realize it.

[DetroitNut90]

Really, you do know that the majority of English words have Latin roots? Some words are actual Latin words such as exit, super, circus, recipe, agenda, ultimatum, versus, plus, minus, percent, the list goes on and on. You speak Latin every day, you just don't realize it.

Oh yes, I know. Still, that didn't make it any more fun to decline 3rd declension nouns or conjugating 2nd conjugation -ere verbs in the passive voice.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Oh yes, I know. Still, that didn't make it any more fun to decline 3rd declension nouns or conjugating 2nd conjugation -ere verbs in the passive voice.

When you were in English class, was it any more fun learning the rules of English? I know English wasn't much fun for me, in fact English is not even my 1st language, German is.

[Paolino]

Thanks.

Again, I'm dumbstruck by how close a lot of words, ill-intent or not, only require an alternate spelling to become interchangeable for that language. It also reminds me of how close Italian and Spanish are (and I also think Portuguese is also very closely related to the two as well), but how each culture and the people who speak it can really make their similarities almost vanish.

What boggles my mind is that some Italian dialects (such as Sicilian) are closer to Spanish than the book Italian (Fiorentino) is. God, even French has words closer to Spanish than Italian.

For example:

English / Italian / Spanish / French / Sicilian

to work / lavorare / trabajar / travailler / travagliare

window / finestra / ventana / finêtre / ventana

come here / vieni qui / vini acá / venez-vous ici / vini ca

to go / andare / ir / aller / ire

[Oracle of Delphi]

What boggles my mind is that some Italian dialects (such as Sicilian) are closer to Spanish than the book Italian (Fiorentino) is. God, even French has words closer to Spanish than Italian.

For example:

English / Italian / Spanish / French / Sicilian

to work / lavorare / trabajar / travailler / travagliare

window / finestra / ventana / finêtre / ventana

come here / vieni qui / vini acá / venez-vous ici / vini ca

to go / andare / ir / aller / ire

You need a history class! :AH-HA_wink: Sicily was more or less a Spanish possession.

Check this link it will explain the history and then you will see why the language is similar.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art186.htm

[trinacriabob]

I can NOT get the accent down in Spanish at all. Then I get frustrated and curse at the professor in Italian. Fortunately, he finds it funny.

You have to stop relating them. It's a handicap. I did the same thing. This is corny but think of yourself in another body, walking around a street in Spain or in Latin America. Don't you have a large Hispanic representation on LI? About 1/3 of my friends in LA were from Spanish speaking families, so that helped.

I had NO problem with the Spanish accent...none. Reason: I learned it "clean," in college and from good profs.

As for Italian, one of the biggest disadvantages is having had to learn Sicilian prior to Italian. It has made me extremely self conscious (since I am in Northern Italy right now) in that I try not to let out a "meridionale" cadence. (Don't get me started) In fact, people here ask me where I'm from.

Instead, in Spain, they told me my Spanish was excellent. In fact, one person said "Usted habla un Espanol correcto...no es el Castellano." It appears that the non-lisped clean Latin American Spanish, as might be spoken in Colombia or Venezuela, is more of the standard than is the Castilian.

Edited July 24, 2007 by trinacriabob

[trinacriabob]

You need a history class! :AH-HA_wink: Sicily was more or less a Spanish possession.

Check this link it will explain the history and then you will see why the language is similar.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art186.htm

Dude, it was also a French/Norman possession for at least 200 years...that's probably why people in France immediately speak French to me (since I guess I look like them) but a Spaniard will hold off.

Case in point:

armoire in English - armadio in Italian - "a muarra" in Sicilian

Ventana in Sicilian? Seriously? It must a regional finessing of the dialect. On the eastern side of the island, we pronounced it "a fineshia."

Edited July 24, 2007 by trinacriabob

[trinacriabob]

It also reminds me of how close Italian and Spanish are (and I also think Portuguese is also very closely related to the two as well), but how each culture and the people who speak it can really make their similarities almost vanish.

Not so fast. Ouch. Italian and Spanish, IMHO, are extremely close. Portuguese is a stretch, not because of the words nor the grammatical structure. It is the pronounciation which is maddening.

Everything with an S is pronounced SH if in the middle or at the end of a word. How that ever surfaced is beyond me.

For example, Lisboa is Leeshboa, the town of Cascais is Kash-kaish, and "as praias" (the beaches) is osh praiash. If that were removed and an S was pronounced like an S is in the other related languages, Portuguese would be a snap...or at least easier. Every Portuguese person tells me it is easier for them to learn Spanish than for a Spaniard to learn Portuguese.

[loki]

you all have me beat, except YJ and maybe DN. lol 2 years of french in HS and a semester of japanese (college) near 3 years ago, maybe.

[AxelTheRed]

I took some German in high school, though I don't remember hardly any of it anymore.

[ZL-1]

Merda in Portuguese!

Pois é!

[Paolino]

As for Italian, one of the biggest disadvantages is having had to learn Sicilian prior to Italian. It has made me extremely self conscious (since I am in Northern Italy right now) in that I try not to let out a "meridionale" cadence. (Don't get me started) In fact, people here ask me where I'm from.

The north/south thing will always be present. We've had fights with professors in class. He's a northerner, and I'm a Sicilian. Try getting a good grade with that!

Ventana in Sicilian? Seriously? It must a regional finessing of the dialect. On the eastern side of the island, we pronounced it "a fineshia."

Agrigento, kinda southwest on the island.

And Pontiac... don't need a history lesson on Sicily... it had SO MANY influences, it's really hard to pinpoint where anything came from. Evidence is going to the actual land and seeing the 50 different cultures all blended in one area.

[trinacriabob]

The north/south thing will always be present. We've had fights with professors in class. He's a northerner, and I'm a Sicilian. Try getting a good grade with that!

Agrigento, kinda southwest on the island.

And it is sad. I was in the Veneto for 3 days and met some wonderful people running the hotel or at eating places. And, so it became learned that I am a Sicilian-American. Better, I guess, than just being a Sicilian.

They got pretty honest with me in our discussions about Italy and Italians. I asked them if a Sicilian were to move up into the area, was well-bred, spoke "neutrally accented" Italian, was a professional and did not look like he floated over from Morocco (as a small percentage does), would he or she be accepted. The answer was "well, in the North, it could take a while." It pissed me off internally because, if we had not come back to the states, that could have been MY story.

I know that in the states, people with a heavy Bible Belt twang, are initially put under the "what's up with this" microscope by those of us in no-accent zones or the north. However, I think that when people figure out that (1) they are generally nice people, and (2) they are on the ball in terms of abilities or education, the "what's up with this" is dropped INSTANTLY.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Pois é!

Merda em toda a língua cheira ainda o mesmo!

Edited July 24, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[CARBIZ]

Not so fast. Ouch. Italian and Spanish, IMHO, are extremely close. Portuguese is a stretch, not because of the words nor the grammatical structure. It is the pronounciation which is maddening.

Everything with an S is pronounced SH if in the middle or at the end of a word. How that ever surfaced is beyond me.

For example, Lisboa is Leeshboa, the town of Cascais is Kash-kaish, and "as praias" (the beaches) is osh praiash. If that were removed and an S was pronounced like an S is in the other related languages, Portuguese would be a snap...or at least easier. Every Portuguese person tells me it is easier for them to learn Spanish than for a Spaniard to learn Portuguese.

Yes. My partner is Brazilian and he can understand Spanish just fine, even picked a lot of it up from a Cd he bought, but apparently the reverse is a lot harder. Additionally, be careful about Portuguese, since more of it is spoken in Brazil than in Portugal itself and there are a lot of differences.

I spent about a year learning Brazilian on the internet www.rosettastone.com is an amazing course that I used. However, when I was practicing at work, a Portuguese guy I work with kept correcting me. When I challenged him, he retorted that I was not learning 'real' Portuguese. Really? Let me see: on the one hand, 10 million Portugese. On the other hand, 180 million Brazilians. Hmm. Who do you think is having a greater influence on the language?

To my layperson's ears, Brazilian (except those from around Rio, who sound strangely different) sounds more fluid and musical than 'real' Portuguese, which I find sounds harsher, so much so that in public I can immediately tell if a group is from Portugal or Brazil (and we have a lot of both in Toronto.) I find the unfriendliness between the two closely related cultures a little disheartening, however.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes. My partner is Brazilian and he can understand Spanish just fine, even picked a lot of it up from a Cd he bought, but apparently the reverse is a lot harder. Additionally, be careful about Portuguese, since more of it is spoken in Brazil than in Portugal itself and there are a lot of differences.

I spent about a year learning Brazilian on the internet www.rosettastone.com is an amazing course that I used. However, when I was practicing at work, a Portuguese guy I work with kept correcting me. When I challenged him, he retorted that I was not learning 'real' Portuguese. Really? Let me see: on the one hand, 10 million Portugese. On the other hand, 180 million Brazilians. Hmm. Who do you think is having a greater influence on the language?

To my layperson's ears, Brazilian (except those from around Rio, who sound strangely different) sounds more fluid and musical than 'real' Portuguese, which I find sounds harsher, so much so that in public I can immediately tell if a group is from Portugal or Brazil (and we have a lot of both in Toronto.) I find the unfriendliness between the two closely related cultures a little disheartening, however.

That's my same argument with English, let's see there are 300 million American speakers and 60 million British speakers, so which version is more valid?

[trinacriabob]

Brazilian (except those from around Rio, who sound strangely different) sounds more fluid and musical than 'real' Portuguese, which I find sounds harsher, so much so that in public I can immediately tell if a group is from Portugal or Brazil (and we have a lot of both in Toronto.) I find the unfriendliness between the two closely related cultures a little disheartening, however.

Many say this, including the language guides. And one can tell this as he or she listens to Brazilian jazz with some vocals in it. I found it easier to understand the Brazilians, but would NOT vacation there though Rio is the most stunning city in the world, bar none. I would rather go to quaint Portugal over and over....and struggle with the language a bit.

I don't know the details, but I have one theory. The Portuguese (and Portugal) like their tranquility. Some transplanted Brazilians and colonials coming in have brought their more lawless ways with them. For example, one Lisboeta told me how pissed he was about the "parking assistants" -- losers, mostly from Brazil, who have a monopoly on a neighborhood where you would just normally pull over and park your car...at no cost. You have to tip them to "watch your car" or they might do something to it in retaliation. The same is true in Naples, where I have cousins. In the North of Europe, this would not fly.

I told my cousins that some big redneck boys back in the States would delight in beating the living f@#k out of such scum. I mean, could you imagine, on a Sunday in downtown Toronto, wanting to park your car on Danforth or College when it might be free and you would have to "tip" somebody $1 or so?

Is this your partner who has the December 13th birthday? Does he make lists for everything and is he super-organized?

[Paolino]

Bob... you know how he knew I was Sicilian? By the way I pronounced "Professore".

Apparently (and I had NO idea I was doing this), Sicilians make the first "o" open, whereas northern Italians keep it closed.

[trinacriabob]

Bob... you know how he knew I was Sicilian? By the way I pronounced "Professore".

Some claim the vowel opening/closure as one way to tell.

For me, it's the cadence....all the way. When I am in Sicily and a local is speaking standard Italian to me, one just listens to the underlying flow and it is Sicilian to the bone, though the Italian being delivered is grammatically correct.

Then, I come back to the north of Italy to my cousins, with whom we are clustered within a 5 year age group or so, and it's nonstop making fun of the Sicilians and our relatives who still live down there (in a nice way for the Sicilians and in a bad way for the relatives).

As for the Espanol, try pretending you are another person altogether (just like Sybil did, but without trying )

[CARBIZ]

Many say this, including the language guides. And one can tell this as he or she listens to Brazilian jazz with some vocals in it. I found it easier to understand the Brazilians, but would NOT vacation there though Rio is the most stunning city in the world, bar none. I would rather go to quaint Portugal over and over....and struggle with the language a bit.

I don't know the details, but I have one theory. The Portuguese (and Portugal) like their tranquility. Some transplanted Brazilians and colonials coming in have brought their more lawless ways with them. For example, one Lisboeta told me how pissed he was about the "parking assistants" -- losers, mostly from Brazil, who have a monopoly on a neighborhood where you would just normally pull over and park your car...at no cost. You have to tip them to "watch your car" or they might do something to it in retaliation. The same is true in Naples, where I have cousins. In the North of Europe, this would not fly.

I told my cousins that some big redneck boys back in the States would delight in beating the living f@#k out of such scum. I mean, could you imagine, on a Sunday in downtown Toronto, wanting to park your car on Danforth or College when it might be free and you would have to "tip" somebody $1 or so?

Is this your partner who has the December 13th birthday? Does he make lists for everything and is he super-organized?

Organized, yes. Lists, that would be me! He believes in instant results. He would pay his bills yesterday, if he could. Procrastination is my middle name!

I've travelled extensively in Brazil. There is a big divide between the north and south. It would be easy to blame everything on their colonial past, but there certainly is a disconnect between the large black minority and the more successful Portuguese majority. I don't see it as bad as the disconnect evident in the States, but it is still there. The differences between Canada (colonized at the same time, but by England) and Brazil are striking. At the turn of the previous century, Toronto and Sao Paulo had the same population - 1/4 million. Now, Sao Paulo is 3 times the size and growing exponentially. Canada needs to learn from these county's mistakes, or we are going to end up just like them.

Brazil is such a rich country in so many ways. It is sad to see it get so bogged down in internal strife. It is constantly struggling against the corruption that plagues most other South American countries.

We should be careful not to judge these "poorer" countries with our values. For example, you rightly pointed out that there are "opportunists" every where, wanting you to pay for something. The beaches in particular are full of vendors selling something. However, Toronto is such a "rich" city, yet the "homeless" people are everywhere and all they do is beg. They don't offer anything in return, they just stick their hand out. During my first trip to Salvador, we watched a group of 5 young black boys, the eldest being about 12, in my estimation. They worked the pedestrian cross walk in front of our hotel from morning until late afternoon. They would juggle their home made sticks, with the littlest often standing on the shoulders of the tallest. They were quite talented. I saw the eldest scold the youngest a few times for some errant behavior. My first instinct was to feel badly for them, but I realized they had formed a social unit and were looking after each other. They were not doing drugs. They seemed healthy. They probably made good money doing that all day.

On the beaches, vendors sell everything, but a polite, dismissive wave of the hand or a brief, "Nao obridgao" rebuffs them - and they usually smile! Not so the vagabonds on Toronto's streets. Yes, we had to pay a couple of reals to have our car watched (not in Sao Paulo or in the South, but in the poorer north), but these same opportunists warned us where we couldn't park or we'd be ticketed.

In Toronto, the parking skags are like locusts. I"ve left my car unattended for 40 seconds while dropping a rental DVD off and returned to a $20 ticket. TWENTY DOLLARS, not a $1, which is about what 2 reals are worth these days. I frequently get customers who owe hundreds, even thousands in parking tickets when they go to buy a newer car.

My partner has observed that there are far fewer differences between the "poor" countries and the rich, then we in the West want to admit. Or do we forget the 36 hour black out in the "rich" eastern U.S. and Canada just a few years ago? Is there any difference in having to bribe an over-worked, underpaid city official in South America then the systemic corruption we see in North America? I am talking about the Big Business all levels of government has become here. My partner "failed" his driver's license twice, yet he drove for 13 years in Sao Paulo. When I joined him for his third test, I realized why: big, big business. Each failure and payment of yet another $50 buck to re-test is big money for the government. This keeps the unionized $25 an hour examiners (in shorts and T-shirts - how professional!) in jobs. It cost him almost $400 to get his G1 license, and he still has to graduate to the next level. A TOTAL AND COMPLETE SCAM. Just look at the shambles our roads have become and you will see we are being hoodwinked.

A friend of mine spent 6 weeks in Ethiopia, Kenya and other African countries on safari. He saw women proud to be flogged by their husbands. He saw children living in mud huts who had perfect teeth, big smiles and NO internet or video games. We need to get out of the Hilton Hotel syndrome and live with the people in some of these countries.

I wonder who is right and who is wrong.

[the_yellow_dart]

J'ai grandir au Canada donc je parle Francais.

I think the word I know most is "cheers". I don't know how to spell any of these, so I'm just going by sound.

Nosdrovya: Serbian / Ukrainian

Proscht: Dutch

Prost: German

Ita taki mas: Japanese

I know how to read the basic Japanese characters (the ones not borrowed from Chinese), and speak a bit.

I learned a few Mandarin phrases while in China, and the meanings of a few important characters for navigation. Ones I can remember: North, West, Mountain, Center, Men, Women, Danger, Gate, and their numerals. They use our numbers a lot, but sometiems you will still see their old numerals.

Most of Japanese is phonetic to their alphabet, like western languages - so you learn a character for its sound, then figure out what that sound means. Chinese however is not at all phonetic, so the things I know how to say I have no idea how to write, and the things I know how to read I have no idea how to say. Strange disconnect.

[Sixty8panther]

I do not and WILL not "habla"....

I came to this country in 1987 as an 8 year old.

At that point I did not know a WORD of english.

Within one year people did not know I was not

born in the USA, I made an effort, and with the

help & support of my parents I learned very

quickly. I specifically do not want to learn

Spanish because I refuse to cater to the lazy

imigrants who refuse to make an effort & learn.

I've been there, I can say from experience that

there is NO excuse.

Any spef respecting immigrant who makes an

effort can learn english.

[trinacriabob]

I do not and WILL not "habla"....

I came to this country in 1987 as an 8 year old.

At that point I did not know a WORD of english.

Within one year people did not know I was not

born in the USA, I made an effort, and with the

help & support of my parents I learned very

quickly. I specifically do not want to learn

Spanish because I refuse to cater to the lazy

imigrants who refuse to make an effort & learn.

I've been there, I can say from experience that

there is NO excuse.

Any spef respecting immigrant who makes an

effort can learn english.

Dude, there is a lot of validity to what you say and a lot of Europeans feel the same way as there are no "programs" for them. They jump in the water and swim.

I learned Spanish only because (1) I had to take another language when I got to college, (2) it is helpful while traveling in Spain and Argentina from where, if people were to come to the states, they would get on board real quick, (3) I had Cuban friends and such, that Americanized as quickly as I did, yet we use Espanol to talk behind people's backs in fun. We worked with this neurotic Jewish chick while in high school who had a funky looking mouth and my best friend Fernando nicknamed her "El Cocodrilo" which means "The Crocodile" and this one angry lesbian at my last job became known as "La Comedora (de Alfombra)" among a handful of us which means "The Carpet Eater," so a lot of my Espanol is for its comic value with friends, though we speak English at all other times.

Edited July 25, 2007 by trinacriabob

[Sixty8panther]

LOL that's funny....

[Oracle of Delphi]

I do not and WILL not "habla"....

I came to this country in 1987 as an 8 year old.

At that point I did not know a WORD of english.

Within one year people did not know I was not

born in the USA, I made an effort, and with the

help & support of my parents I learned very

quickly. I specifically do not want to learn

Spanish because I refuse to cater to the lazy

imigrants who refuse to make an effort & learn.

I've been there, I can say from experience that

there is NO excuse.

Any spef respecting immigrant who makes an

effort can learn english.

Learning English or any other language easily, depends on the age of the person. For you and I, we came here at a young age so it was easy for us to learn English, but there is a point, a no return point if you will, that it becomes almost impossible to learn another language. Especially if you're poor and don't have the resources and the family support to do so. How many times have you seen little Latin American children translating English into Spanish for their parents and grand parents and vice versa? When I was in college I did my Senior thesis on the assimilation of Spanish by American English in the USA. It showed that if the president were to seal the borders and not allow another new Latin American in to the USA, by the 3rd generation the descendants (grandchildren) of those that were speaking Spanish when they arrived would no longer be able to speak Spanish. In effect they would have been totally assimilated into American English and forgotten Spanish altogether.

One of my brothers was born in Germany as I was, and my mother is German and speaks English with a very thick German accent, yet my brothers children can not speak one word of German and my mother still struggles with English at times and she has been here almost 30 years.

It would be easy to point fingers and say look at all those lazy Latinos, but it has more to do with age and brain function than being lazy. IMHO!

[trinacriabob]

Sicily was more or less a Spanish possession.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art186.htm

I like the link. I will have to "bask in it" a little more, as it has a lot of meat on its bones and good factual stuff for me to latch onto.

One of my Mom's first cousins who lives on the East Coast married an unquestionably Sicilian woman with a Spanish surname ending in 'ez'. There is no bigger bitch-on-wheels to be found anywhere (yeah, he is a wimp, of course), yet her sister, who is probably now in her 70s and remains in the Motherland, is very mild-mannered and nice.

Some other Spanish surnames, such as Serges, were quite well represented in my parents' general area.

I am also wondering if there is a Portuguese link to "the island". The grammatical structure of Sicilian is shockingly similar to that of Portuguese, particularly in prepositional phrases.

Example - "the lady is from Portugal"

Portuguese: A senhora e do Portugal

Italian: La signora e del Portogallo (gn = nh)

Sicilian: A signora e do Portogallo (gn = nh)

Why I never at least minored in languages I'll never know, because I would have been a pig in $h!.

[ZL-1]

I spent about a year learning Brazilian on the internet www.rosettastone.com is an amazing course that I used. However, when I was practicing at work, a Portuguese guy I work with kept correcting me. When I challenged him, he retorted that I was not learning 'real' Portuguese. Really? Let me see: on the one hand, 10 million Portugese. On the other hand, 180 million Brazilians. Hmm. Who do you think is having a greater influence on the language?

Don't get me started on that subject (see my location)

[aaaantoine]

Italian: La signora e del Portogallo (gn = nh)

Sicilian: A signora e do Portogallo (gn = nh)

I find it funny that the Spanish essentially made a new letter to replace "gn".

La señora es de Portugal.

Another thing I like about Spanish is its use of leading punctuation so that the reader can more easily spot a question or exclamation.

¿La señora es de Portugal?

Sí, ¡La señora es de Portugal!

I'm not exactly fluent in the language beyond this, though...

[Oracle of Delphi]

Don't get me started on that subject (see my location)

Is that in Europe?

[CARBIZ]

Learning English or any other language easily, depends on the age of the person. For you and I, we came here at a young age so it was easy for us to learn English, but there is a point, a no return point if you will, that it becomes almost impossible to learn another language. Especially if you're poor and don't have the resources and the family support to do so. How many times have you seen little Latin American children translating English into Spanish for their parents and grand parents and vice versa? When I was in college I did my Senior thesis on the assimilation of Spanish by American English in the USA. It showed that if the president were to seal the borders and not allow another new Latin American in to the USA, by the 3rd generation the descendants (grandchildren) of those that were speaking Spanish when they arrived would no longer be able to speak Spanish. In effect they would have been totally assimilated into American English and forgotten Spanish altogether.

One of my brothers was born in Germany as I was, and my mother is German and speaks English with a very thick German accent, yet my brothers children can not speak one word of German and my mother still struggles with English at times and she has been here almost 30 years.

It would be easy to point fingers and say look at all those lazy Latinos, but it has more to do with age and brain function than being lazy. IMHO!

I wish I had paid more attention to my French classes when I was in grade school. I missed a year, tried to catch up but my French mark was pulling my average down, so I dropped it as soon as it became optional. I suspect learning Portuguese would be a lot easier, had I have stuck to my French studies as a kid.

Learning a second language was a challenge, but kind of fun. Helping my other half to learn English was a real chore. When we met, he had 3 months of ESL language under his belt. I don't know how we got passed the first year, and there were some spectacular miscommunications, but we persevered.

People, especially adults, grossly underestimate the time it will take to learn a second language. If you are lucky enough to know one of the European languages from birth, then learning a second European language will come eventually. However, a lot of recent immigrants to Toronto ( I won't say Canada because most of them end up here) don't even share the same alphabet. How these people expect to learn English while driving a cab 12 hours a day, and then go home to a wife and 6 screaming brats is beyond me, but then they turn around and complain that their "credentials" are not being recognized. I don't know about you, but when a doctor is about to cut me open, I want to make sure he knows the difference between 'scalpel' and 'chain saw', and that the attending nurse will understand his accent!

Our embassy is lying to these people. My partner has been struggling for 5 1/2 years and still has a lot of problems with 'articles.' I spent ten minutes explaining the difference between 'betrayal,' 'set up' and 'framed' during a movie the other night. (Not in a theatre, mind you!!!)

You are learning more than just a language - you are learning an entire culture. Communications is the end-all-and-be-all of modern society, yet we are not making the least demands on who we are letting into our countries. It will be to our mutual detriment as we go forward. We are not doing them any favors, nor ourselves.

I understand American's concerns about the sudden influx of Latinos into the country over the past decade or so; however, the U.S. has a proud and strong identity to tempt these people with. Due to the fractured nature of Canada's history (the British defeated the French, but then allowed them to keep their institutions), we are paying the price today. Since we cannot decide if we are "British," "French," or "First Nations," all the rest of the world is using us as their door mat. We cannot assert our own culture because, in fact, we are told we have none.

Canada - or at least Toronto and Vancouver, will become the Bosnia of North America, IMO. I should be learning Chinese or Hindi or Farsi if I want to keep a job in the future.

[ZL-1]

Is that in Europe?

O que é a Europa? Não conheço...

EDIT - just noticed smilewide smileys smile widely in widely sinchronized fashion...

Edited July 24, 2007 by ZL-1

[trinacriabob]

People, especially adults, grossly underestimate the time it will take to learn a second language. If you are lucky enough to know one of the European languages from birth, then learning a second European language will come eventually.

So true...so true...I know this chick who went to Berkeley (odd, granola and Italian...started in linguistics and is now a medical doctor, so, odd...yes) who told me they have conducted studies ad nauseum that bear out the fact that bilingual children who go back and forth between English, for example, and the native tongue of their ancestors (Spanish, Italian, etc.) can pick up new languages like sponges. For those who did not have that exposure, it's nowhere near as easy.

[mustang84]

I had a lot of problems at first when I was learning Italian because I would remember the Spanish word instead. Now it's flip-flopped...I remember Italian better than Spanish even though I took 4 years of Spanish (five years ago) and only three weeks of Italian (but lived there for four months, so I was around the language).

[Paolino]

I had a lot of problems at first when I was learning Italian because I would remember the Spanish word instead. Now it's flip-flopped...I remember Italian better than Spanish even though I took 4 years of Spanish (five years ago) and only three weeks of Italian (but lived there for four months, so I was around the language).

Unfortunately, it'll fade FAST if you don't practice.

[Cadillacfan]

I learned Français in school starting from 5th grade all the way up to my Junior year in High School. I have yet to successfuly complete a sentence in french without screwing something up. I took it mostly because my father, aunt, and grandmother are all citizens of the country as well as countless cousins that I've never even met before. Probably should've stuck to Spanish. Would've had much more use for it living in this country.

Before I die, I at least want to try to learn Chinese (mandarin), Hungarian, and maybe even Italian.

[mustang84]

Unfortunately, it'll fade FAST if you don't practice.

Yeah, I'm thinking about breaking out my Italian CD and just brushing up over the rest of the summer. I definitely plan on going back someday!

[trinacriabob]

I took it mostly because my father, aunt, and grandmother are all citizens of the country as well as countless cousins that I've never even met before. Probably should've stuck to Spanish. Would've had much more use for it living in this country.

No, you did good. Who are we trying to kid...French is a beautiful language.