Lexus LS600hL

[enzl]

Check it out when it appears online. I think you may need a login.

NYT might be off the payroll.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/automobi...amp;oref=slogin

Conspicuous Consumption With Green Illusions

Lexus's 2.5-ton flagship moves on hybrid power.

By LAWRENCE ULRICH

Published: July 15, 2007

IN “North Dallas Forty,” the shaggy 1979 gridiron film starring Nick Nolte, a lineman played by John Matuszak ranted memorably to a coach about the hypocrisy of pro football: “Every time I call it a game, you call it a business. And every time I call it a business, you call it a game.”

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Toyota and Lexus would disagree, but their recent hybrid models, including the Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX 400h utility wagons, the Lexus GS 450h sedan and now the Lexus LS 600h L, similarly seem to be trying to have it both ways.

In recent advertisements, including one in the “green issue” of Vanity Fair, Lexus uses one hand to present the 400-plus horsepower of the LS 600h L and the other to pat its own back for saving fuel and planet alike.

The ads and the cars have convinced many, including some credulous journalists, of Lexus’s pitch: that a hybrid car or S.U.V. can drive like a Porsche and sip fuel like a Prius. But a closer examination proves once again that there’s no free lunch, even at the drive-through.

For more than a year, Lexus has suggested that the LS 600h L — as tested, a $121,000 hybrid version of its LS 460 L flagship sedan — would set a new standard for four-door luxury automobiles. Its pitch was that the car would perform like a V-12 supersedan while whipping V-8 rivals on fuel economy. Instead, the hybrid may have set a new standard for automotive hyperbole.

Behind its green Teflon shield, the Lexus proved to be just another overstuffed sedan that can barely top 20 miles a gallon — less, if you actually tap into all that power. If that’s saving the planet, Jor-El had better prepare the escape pod before it’s too late.

Before the enviro-brigade readies the guillotine, I hasten to add that this isn’t about hating hybrids. Electric propulsion is looking more and more like a winning technology. Companies from Toyota to General Motors are working to develop affordable lithium-ion batteries, which could deliver clean, efficient, renewable power in plug-in hybrids or purely electric vehicles.

I can’t believe that adding a cupful of electric juice to a fat barrel of V-8 muscle is what environmentalists have in mind.

On the performance front, forget about the Lexus hanging with V-12 sedans like the Mercedes S600. Turns out that the Lexus can’t even outrun its own nonhybrid version, the LS 460 L. Nor is it appreciably quicker than V-8 competitors that cost $20,000 to $30,000 less, like the Mercedes S550, the Audi A8 and the BMW 7 Series, or the similarly priced Maserati Quattroporte.

It must be noted that such decadent sedans are about more than straight-line speed. Park those high-wattage rivals beside the Lexus, and the modestly styled LS virtually disappears; challenge them on a twisty road and they all disappear from the Lexus by virtue of their sportier handling.

Spurred from a stop to 60 miles an hour, the LS 600h L clocks a swift 5.5 seconds, according to Lexus’s own testing. Yet the gas-only LS 460 L, with a mere 380 horsepower from a smaller V-8, reaches 60 in 5.4 seconds, nosing out the more powerful hybrid.

How is that possible? Check the scales, where the Lexus hybrid weighs in like Jared before his Subway diet.

The hybrid does add all-wheel drive, not available on the LS 460 L. But together, the heavy batteries and all-wheel-drive system burden the hybrid with more than 700 additional pounds, for a total of 5,049. Forced to motivate the added weight, the hybrid’s larger 5-liter V-8 — another environmental oxymoron — and dual electric motors makes acceleration a wash. (One motor drives the four wheels. The other starts the gas engine and recharges the batteries.)

Excess weight takes its toll on mileage as well. The hybrid got 21 m.p.g. — amazingly, 1 m.p.g. less than the nonhybrid version that I tested on the same urban roads and highways in and around New York City. That perfectly wonderful LS 460 L is blessed with one of the most fuel-efficient V-8s I’ve driven, a 4.6-liter smoothie.

But the Lexus hybrid’s biggest jolt comes from sticker shock: the LS 600h L starts at $104,715, about $32,000 above the LS 460 L. Laden with options for $121,000, the hybrid costs about $30,000 more than the comparable gas-only version.

Driven gently, the Lexus will indeed beat the mileage of its apples-to-apples V-8 rivals, but only by 1 m.p.g. to 3 m.p.g. A Mercedes S550 isn’t an egregious guzzler at an E.P.A.-rated 16/24 m.p.g., and I managed 19 m.p.g. during a recent test. And when I drove the Lexus in mildly spirited fashion, its mileage dropped to 19 m.p.g. It’s hard to see why such minuscule mileage gains would dazzle the type of person who’s ready to drop $100,000 on a car.

The E.P.A. rates the hybrid’s mileage at 20 m.p.g. in town and 22 on the highway. The nonhybrid is rated 16/24 under the same revised formula, which takes effect for 2008 and is intended to present lower, more realistic mileage estimates for most cars.

In its defense, the hybrid should save you a few bucks if you do a lot of city driving. But on the highway, the gas-only model was decidedly more efficient, and thus ended up doing 1 m.p.g. better over all. And in bumper-to-bumper traffic, where you expect a hybrid to excel, the LS 600h L mustered only 14 m.p.g., certainly nothing to marvel at.

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The uneasy comparisons don’t end there. The gas-only version handled better and drove more smoothly.

The nonhybrid benefits from the world’s first eight-speed automatic transmission, which lifts mileage and operates with hushed aplomb. The hybrid’s continuously variable transmission, in contrast, has to busily calculate and divvy power from the gas and electric sources. It’s among the most seamless of its kind, but not as smooth or transparent as the Lexus eight-speed. And its manual-shift function is nearly useless. In trying to mimic the feel of sporty downshifts, it ladles on ever-higher levels of regenerative hybrid braking. To the driver, the sludgy effect feels like throwing anchors of various sizes out the window.

Lexus’s hybrid double-talk extends to emissions arguments. When the company says the Lexus hybrid is cleaner than average cars, people will assume that has something to do with global warming. But in this instance, that is not the case.

To its credit, the car’s super-ultra-low emissions vehicle rating (SULEV, if you will) is indeed cleaner than other V-8 models, but only if you are measuring the pollutants that form smog. (Even on the smog index, many gasoline models also achieve SULEV ratings or better).

But the critical earth issue today is conserving fuel and cutting carbon dioxide emissions. Those greenhouse gas levels are almost entirely a function of fuel economy: if you use more gas, you spew more carbon dioxide. So on that score, the 21 m.p.g. hybrid actually emits far more carbon dioxide than, say, a Mercedes-Benz diesel E-Class that can attain 30 m.p.g.

The LS 600h L also emits more greenhouse gases than the average new car that currently achieves 27.5 m.p.g. So a common Toyota Camry, among dozens of models, leaves a smaller carbon footprint than this hybrid land yacht.

One final ignominy: given the hybrid batteries and a separate air-conditioner for the back seat, the hybrid’s trunk measures a meager 11.7 cubic feet, smaller than that of a Kia Rio or other compact sedan. (Skip the rear air-conditioning in a Lexus LS 460 L, and you’ll enjoy a 50 percent larger trunk, at 18 cubic feet).

Jim Farley, general manager of Lexus, defended the car’s performance and green credentials. “If Lexus had to have a flagship, this is how it should be,” he said. “It’s the progressive person’s alternative. Hybrids are a huge platform for us at Lexus, and they’re only going to get bigger.”

Certainly, this hybrid Lexus is one of the quietest, most comfortable, best-built sedans around. It has every imaginable safety system and creature comfort. The navigation system is first-rate. The Mark Levinson audio system is amazing. And the optional ($12,675) Executive Package is the hands-down — or feet-up? — coolest feature. It includes rear seats that recline, heat and cool, along with a right-hand chair with a steeper recline, massage functions and a powered ottoman for the full mini-Maybach effect.

Yet every compliment you can lavish on this impressive ride, minus the all-wheel drive, applies equally to the nonhybrid version.

So why would anyone spend an extra $30,000 for this car? Certainly, the performance gains of 12-cylinder sedans aren’t always justified by their enormous premiums. Many people buy them for that V-12 badge on the fender, the exclusive message it sends. Ditto for the Lexus, but the roughly 2,000 people who’ll line up for the hybrid won’t be broadcasting their superior power, but their superior morals, however illusory.

If that’s not you, stick with the Lexus LS 460 L. Enjoy a back-seat massage and relax. You’ll know that you’ve got the better car — one that’s equally fast and frugal, but also weighs less and handles better.

You can actually park that terrific gas-only Lexus in the garage and have $30,000 to buy a Prius hybrid, with cash left over. Save the LS for special occasions and run errands in the Toyota at more than double the mileage. While Lexus plays the hybrid game, it’s the Prius that takes care of business.

Edited July 14, 2007 by enzl

[regfootball]

i like the jaguar xj. 3800 pounds. aluminum. style. great mpg. goes to show you, toyota is starting to stumble.

I like this article. hits em right where they need to be hit.

Edited July 14, 2007 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

Thanks for posting.

What is it with Toyotas getting seriously porky?

[Delta Force79]

Good to hear...take that Toyota.

[Paolino]

Oh wow... I'm sending this guy a fruit basket.

[Lamar]

Thanks for posting.

What is it with Toyotas getting seriously porky?

Americanization?

Interesting about this car... when I first read anything about it, the EPA was projected to be 25/28, albeit by '07 standards. Either Lexus overestimated itself or cancelled itself out, I dunno.

Edited July 14, 2007 by Lamar

[Paolino]

Americanization?

Touché :AH-HA_wink:

[enzl]

Thanks for posting.

What is it with Toyotas getting seriously porky?

I believe the hybrid batteries, extra A/C system and 4wd all pork the LS out.

I think Toyota will sell every one of these, even if they are kind of stupid.

I'm with Reg...an XJ anyday over this turkey...maybe with the 6 cylinder diesel that has gotten raves in the European press if I'm feeling green.

Ford missed a huge opportunity with the aluminum XJ....I don't think they'll make that same mistake with the rumored Rangies with the same tech.

[balthazar]

A hunnert an twenty thousand dollars??? WTF does toyota smoke to think the hybrid version, with worse mileage and performance and no cargo room, is worth even $5000 more?? God, the hyperbole... which by the way is what most of their (radio at least) advertising is relying on now.

>>"Americanization?"<<

What American sedan weighs 5100 lbs? I'm with reg: for the ridiculous money both charged, and in the coffers in toyko, the ls should be all-aluminum and weigh no more than 4000. Slice a few billion of the ad budget and hire some more engineers.

[Flybrian]

What American sedan weighs 5100 lbs?

[balthazar]

OK: RECENT sedans.

But to fit the definition-- 'Americanizing' of sedans in the last 30 years has been overwhelmingly making them smaller & lighter. Toyota is doing the opposite in the last 30 years. Perhaps the lexes is 'Japanizing'...

[Flybrian]

Consider also the first two are about a quarter mile long and have more heavy metal than a stoner's record collection and its really sad the LS weighs as much.

[Intrepidation]

Well at least someone in the media doesn't buy into Lexus' hybrid BS.

[Drew Dowdell]

time for some Drew numbers pwnage.

Lexus LS600HL = 5,049lbs, CVT, 20 city, 22highway

Chevy Silverado 2wd LTZ extended cab = 5142lbs, 4-speed, 16city, 22highway.

[Bimmer325]

What American sedan weighs 5100 lbs?

What American car company has a sedan to compete with this? Until Cadillac or Lincoln releases something competent in this segment (as in, not the DTS or Town Car), that argument is obsolete.

[balthazar]

What argument? The point was merely that the car is ridiculously, BOF SUV-y heavy, and there's no excuse for it. No one mentioned the DTS or TC here. The hybrid powertrain struggles so hard to move all that, that it's outperformed in accel & MPG by the gas-engined version, so WTF do you get for $120K? Not weigh-saving tech, that's for sure. Think of the numbers for this pig if it weighed 4250.

Toyota's 'image' with hybrids is all about economy- that's the perception and that's the PR push. But this car counters that hyperbole 180-degrees. From a PR standpoint, not top mention on the backs of growing evidence the hybrids shortfall of their numbers is class-leading in that respect... the left hand of toyota doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing.

[Lamar]

>>"Americanization?"<<

What American sedan weighs 5100 lbs?

I was responding about getting fat and heavy being something that plagues Americans more than most any other country. Not necessarily about cars per se.

[Lamar]

What argument? The point was merely that the car is ridiculously, BOF SUV-y heavy, and there's no excuse for it. No one mentioned the DTS or TC here. The hybrid powertrain struggles so hard to move all that, that it's outperformed in accel & MPG by the gas-engined version, so WTF do you get for $120K? Not weigh-saving tech, that's for sure. Think of the numbers for this pig if it weighed 4250.

Toyota's 'image' with hybrids is all about economy- that's the perception and that's the PR push. But this car counters that hyperbole 180-degrees. From a PR standpoint, not top mention on the backs of growing evidence the hybrids shortfall of their numbers is class-leading in that respect... the left hand of toyota doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing.

There must be something in the Japanese water. Remember how the Accord Hybrid was more, er, "performance-oriented" than the gas-only V-6? It was more powerful, sure, but the mileage improvement was so unappreciable that they didn't sell, and Honda dropped the car.

I read somewhere that there are over 1,850 orders on this car already....

[enzl]

There must be something in the Japanese water. Remember how the Accord Hybrid was more, er, "performance-oriented" than the gas-only V-6? It was more powerful, sure, but the mileage improvement was so unappreciable that they didn't sell, and Honda dropped the car.

I read somewhere that there are over 1,850 orders on this car already....

It's effectively sold out for this model year. 2000 are coming....

[regfootball]

What American car company has a sedan to compete with this? Until Cadillac or Lincoln releases something competent in this segment (as in, not the DTS or Town Car), that argument is obsolete.

you didn't read my first post in the thread? Jaguar. FOrd owns Jaguar.

i bet a dual mode hybrid in the chinese park avenue would own this car.

Edited July 15, 2007 by regfootball

[pow]

time for some Drew numbers pwnage.

Lexus LS600HL = 5,049lbs, CVT, 20 city, 22highway

Chevy Silverado 2wd LTZ extended cab = 5142lbs, 4-speed, 16city, 22highway.

You're comparing results of old and new testing procedures. I can't find '08 Silverado EPA MPG results yet, though a recent newspaper ad I saw for the Tahoe Hybrid says it's 14/20 for an '08 Tahoe 5.3 2wd.

[Flybrian]

The fact that this trim - with apparently no inherent value over the normal model - is sold out already says volumes about this country.

[SingleStylish]

The fact that this trim - with apparently no inherent value over the normal model - is sold out already says volumes about this country.

That they'd rather spend more to save the environment through lower emissions and "potentially" less fuel consumption?

PS I find all Lexus Hybrid models to be pretty useless but, I couldn't miss the opportunity.

[Flybrian]

I bet none of these LS600hL owners live in reasonable homes. Where the carbon offset for that?

[SingleStylish]

I bet none of these LS600hL owners live in reasonable homes. Where the carbon offset for that?

The whole concept of "luxury" hybrids is really a joke. If you REALLY were all about conservancy A) you wouldn't drive a car, you would walk or take a motorcycle of some sort; B) even if you HAD to have a car you would buy a compact fuel efficient car like a Fit or Yaris. So, the idea that "people will pay for saving the environment" that Toyota lives by is really a joke. They peddle the Lexus hybrids as a status symbol and therefore comand a higher price. Its the car business not the sierra club.

[Drew Dowdell]

Actually, I think it was Lexus's way of making a V12 sedan without spending the development money on making a V12. The equation works thusly: existing V8 + (Pruis hybrid parts * 1.75) = V12

[The O.C.]

I believe the hybrid batteries, extra A/C system and 4wd all pork the LS out.

I think Toyota will sell every one of these, even if they are kind of stupid.

I'm with Reg...an XJ anyday over this turkey...maybe with the 6 cylinder diesel that has gotten raves in the European press if I'm feeling green.

Ford missed a huge opportunity with the aluminum XJ....I don't think they'll make that same mistake with the rumored Rangies with the same tech.

This car is the answer to a question no one asked. People with $75,000 - $125,000 to shell out on a luxury performance sedan are likely not in the least concerned about "hybrid" efficiency....especially when in this case, the car barely stays up with it's (much cheaper) V8 competition.....doesn't get that much better real-world mileage.....and doesn't offer anything equipment-wise that you can't option up an LS460 with.

This is most assuredly NOT an S600/S8 W-12/760Li/Alpina B7 competitor.

At least Toyota's other hybrid efforts, if not totally cost-effective over the long-term, at least give a stronger performance-versus-economy trade-off. Look at the Camry hybrid.....mileage slightly superior to the L4, but 0-60 in only 7.7seconds.

[Flybrian]

Wait...this qualifies for the $2000 tax credit. $125,000 - $2,000 = affordability...woohoo!

[Lamar]

Wait...this qualifies for the $2000 tax credit. $125,000 - $2,000 = affordability...woohoo!

That's how the rich get richer.

[Viperfan07]

Silly Japanese...

[ponchoman49]

Glad someone sees this overweight pig of a vehicle for the fraud that it is.

[regfootball]

well, i guess toyota saw all those escalade buyers take advantage of the fast writeoff tax code and decided their fans needed a tax writeoff.

[smk4565]

I noticed the specs on the Lexus website the other day. The 4.6 liter V8 is really efficient, you get the same performance and economy with it that you get with the hybrid, so there is no point to buying the hybrid V8. If it was a 500 hp hybrid V10 that got 20/22, I could see the point, but the LS600h is just marketing and image. Sadly people will buy it just to say they have a $100,000 hybrid. I am so sick and tired of people that buy Toyotas on some fake image that they are so much better. And I think I am equally disappointed in GM for not challenging them more. GM needs a 50 mpg car so badly, if you have a hybrid perception is that you are the greatest thing ever.

[Z-06]

This car is the perfect example of how people accept Toy and Lex bull crap.

V-8 economy for a V-8 performance. ----> Mercedes S600 slaughters it with glory. Even the almost similar rated Bimmer V-12 is faster.

Fuel Economy that is astoundingly pathetic.

And yet this vehicle is good becuase it is a hybrid and a Lex and hence worthy of buying. (Yawn)

[toyoguy]

I bet none of these LS600hL owners live in reasonable homes.

define reasonable, and I believe Toyota's marketing department has determined the average LS600h owner will own more than one home.

[toyoguy]

This car is the answer to a question no one asked. People with $75,000 - $125,000 to shell out on a luxury performance sedan are likely not in the least concerned about "hybrid" efficiency....especially when in this case, the car barely stays up with it's (much cheaper) V8 competition.....doesn't get that much better real-world mileage.....and doesn't offer anything equipment-wise that you can't option up an LS460 with.

based on your experience? Maybe physics isn't your strong suit, though it doesn't take a scientist to figure out the LS600h cannot possibly get better mileage if driven with a lead foot or spends its life on the highway.

FYI, just as Toyota stated years ago, they built a V8 hybrid that performs like a V12 with V6 fuel economy. Yet you are suprised today?

LS600h awd gets 21mpg gallons combined

4cyl Impreza 20mpg

C350 4matic 19mpg

C280 4matic 20mpg

A4 Quattro 20mpg

and the LS460 L 19mpg

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?se...article_id=5420

1/4mi:

[email protected]

faster than every non-performance luxury sedan (excluding the S600) on the road and many sports cars yet it's slow

Exactly what are you complaining about?

and as another FYI that $120k Lexus features a rear seating package and safety equipment its competitors do not. Delete them and it costs $105k far less than its competitors.

This is most assuredly NOT an S600/S8 W-12/760Li/Alpina B7 competitor.

Assuredly huh?

Autobild doesn't seem to think so.

http://www.autospies.com/news/AutoBild-com...-LS600hL-14799/

Audi and Alpina will sell a total of 10 models this year. Apparently the marketplace doesn't agree with you considering the LS600h has more pre-orders than all its competitors combined times two. Suprising 55yr olds w/assests exceeding $5million seeking a premium luxury sedan do not have a desire for it to run from 0-60mph in 4seconds.

And let me know when any of the LS600h's competitors offer an SULEV emissions rating. Find a V8 engine which is SULEV certified. Find an 6cyl engine outside of Cali that is SULEV certifed. Actually find a non-hybrid 4cyl sold outside Cali that is SULEV certified.

Look at the Camry hybrid.....mileage slightly superior to the L4, but 0-60 in only 7.7seconds.

based on what?

Even the almost similar rated Bimmer V-12 is faster.

Fuel Economy that is astoundingly pathetic.

21mpg combined vs 15mpg combined.

what's astoundingly pathetic is BMW sold 12 760Li's last month.

And please post a link with 760Li acceleration stats.

Edited July 20, 2007 by toyoguy

[deftonesfan867]

Toyota calls this sedan performance orientated so OF COURSE people are going to drive it fast. The thing is that Toyota made it seem like hey, drive me like a bat outta hell and still get great mileage.

[toyoguy]

Toyota calls this sedan performance orientated so OF COURSE people are going to drive it fast. The thing is that Toyota made it seem like hey, drive me like a bat outta hell and still get great mileage.

Do they?

http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsI...sedan-in-detail

Together, this advanced combination provides the LS 600h L with an unmatched balance of environmental efficiency and performance.

The LS 600h L's Lexus Hybrid Drive system provides power and performance on par with competitors normally aspirated 12-cylinder powerplants. The hybrid powertrain generates a peak combined output rating of 438 horsepower and can effortlessly accelerate the LS 600h L from zero-to-60 mph in just 5.5 seconds. Mid-range acceleration is even more impressive. The system's electric motor is capable of delivering maximum torque, on demand, and is most beneficial during passing maneuvers. Finally, exhilarating torque is in abundance at higher speeds as the LS 600h L rapidly accelerates from 50-70 mph in a rapid 3.5 seconds

The LS 600h L's high-output performance is matched with a preliminary MY08 EPA-estimated miles-per-gallon fuel efficiency rating of 20 in the city, and 22 on the highway. Its combined fuel economy rating of 21 mpg is equal to or better than the combined fuel-economy ratings of many V6 all-wheel-drive mid-sized luxury sedans.

exactly where did you get this?

[NOS2006]

Fricking awesome article! 20 MPG for $120,000? I'd but a Corvette SS for that price and probably get better gas mileage.

[regfootball]

Fricking awesome article! 20 MPG for $120,000? I'd but a Corvette SS for that price and probably get better gas mileage.

just buy 2 standard vettes and save a little money too

[Flybrian]

And let me know when any of the LS600h's competitors offer an SULEV emissions rating.

Who cares?

Find an 6cyl engine outside of Cali that is SULEV certifed.

Since 2005.

Your big flaw in your argument, Toyoguy is...yourself. You say its a fast sedan, yet counter that its buyers don't care if its fast. Again, compared to the LS460 in the real world, it offers less fuel economy, slower performance, more weight, and less trunk space...for more money...lots more.

Answer me this: Why buy it?

[toyoguy]

Who cares?

lots of people care, why else would CARB exist?

LA no longer issues smog alerts and is no longer the most polluted city in the US.

Since 2005.

not outside Cali.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-BUICK-LaCrosse-07.htm

Your big flaw in your argument, Toyoguy is...yourself. You say its a fast sedan, yet counter that its buyers don't care if its fast. Again, compared to the LS460 in the real world, it offers less fuel economy, slower performance, more weight, and less trunk space...for more money...lots more.

Answer me this: Why buy it?

No the LS600h, gets better fuel economy (21mpg combined vs 19mg combined), better performance (no LS460 can trap 105mph or offer the passing power), and features awd. It's also significantly quieter than the LS460.

The major difference between the average LS460 and LS600h owner is both income and spending habits. Lexus marketing has already determined the typical LS600h buyer owns many vehicles with a high turnover frequency.

[Flybrian]

lots of people care, why else would CARB exist?

LA no longer issues smog alerts and is no longer the most polluted city in the US.

not outside Cali.

People who care about their personal emissions would buy cleaner vehicles than the LS600hL. The fact that these buyers own multiple homes show their lack of regard for the environment. Think about it. Its a hollow status symbol.

Also of course "not outside California" because emissions standards such as CARB's don't apply outside of Calfornia.

No the LS600h, gets better fuel economy (21mpg combined vs 19mg combined), better performance (no LS460 can trap 105mph or offer the passing power), and features awd. It's also significantly quieter than the LS460.

What are you quoting actually, press releases? The rest of us are looking at a real-world evaluation.

[toyoguy]

People who care about their personal emissions would buy cleaner vehicles than the LS600hL. The fact that these buyers own multiple homes show their lack of regard for the environment.

Not necessarily it means they like vacationing frequently by the lake, beach, or mountains.

Few will alter their lifestyles for the enviroment's sake, and the LS600h means they don't have to. Toyota marketing knows this, exactly why they built the car, and exactly why it is already sold out.

Also of course "not outside California" because emissions standards such as CARB's don't apply outside of Calfornia.

The link provided indicates EPA emission scores from the EPA's website, nowhere does it mention CARB ratings.

9.5 emission score for Lacrosses sold only in Cali, the rest get a 6.0.

What are you quoting actually, press releases? The rest of us are looking at a real-world evaluation.

Acceleration figure is from road and track. You have determined real world fuel estimates based on real world experience?

[Camino LS6]

What a prize for the "more money than brains" crowd, and it's ugly to boot!

Painfully stupid.

[Lamar]

Few will alter their lifestyles for the enviroment's sake, and the LS600h means they don't have to.

... at a $30,000 premium.

[Flybrian]

Not necessarily it means they like vacationing frequently by the lake, beach, or mountains.

Few will alter their lifestyles for the enviroment's sake, and the LS600h means they don't have to.

They'll be carrying a whole lot less to the lake, beach, and mountains in their LS600h. Maybe that's what their environmentally-friendly Land Cruiser is for...

[Intrepidation]

They'll be carrying a whole lot less to the lake, beach, and mountains in their LS600h. Maybe that's what their environmentally-friendly Land Cruiser is for...

Nah, since they're such smart buyers, they'd have opted for the pointless, more expensive, Lexus version. :AH-HA_wink:

[PeterPuck]

Good to hear...take that Toyota.

Huh? He just recommended that buyers purchase two Toyotas. He practically stated that the gas-only Lexus is the best luxury car in the world, and the Prius is the best economy car in the world, and that you should buy both if you have the money. By contrast, the NYTimes once suggested - in an Explorer review -that buyers get a Odyssey instead.

To his credit, he did loudly chide them for hybrid hypocrisy though.

[siegen]

I'm still waiting for the LX570h.