Sticker Shock

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well my wife has been whispering in my ear that she wants a new SUV to replace the 2005 Chevrolet Equinox LT AWD that she drives. I told her that's fine but I was not happy with the Chevy dealer that we used last time and her choices would be anything that Buick, Pontiac, GMC sells, so I can continue to get the great service from my Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealership that I receive. We are looking to buy about this time next year.

Tonight we happened to be going by the dealership so we stopped to only looked at the Buick Enclave. This was a pretty loaded SUV (I might add it was hard to read anything on the sticker as the window was heavily tinted) and when I got to the sticker price of $42,550 dollars, I got a bad case of sticker shock. I automatically figured in my GM Employee discount and it was still more than I am willing to pay.

So now my choices are down to the GMC Envoy (lots of rebate money for this 4 - 6K), Pontiac Torrent (always around 2k in rebates) and the GMC Acadia (no rebate as of today according to my dealer), I have a feeling I may have sticker shock with this too, but a lot can change in a year.

If I am not willing to pay that price even with my GM Employee discount, I wonder how many Joe Sixpacks will?

Edited July 10, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[balthazar]

Enclave is aiming at less 'Joe Sixpacks' than any previous Buicks ever did.

[Northstar]

You can get a less loaded model for cheaper, but as balthy said the Enclave isn't going after Chevy's buyers. The Acadia is also available with nice options for $35k and below.

[CARBIZ]

The same clowns who would pay $45k for a MDX?

[Flybrian]

Loaded Park Avenue Ultras stickered for $44,000. Its not unprecendented, but this time, its worth it.

[AxelTheRed]

Buick's turning back into a more deluxe brand..."Joe Sixpack" is definitely not their target.

[GMTruckGuy74]

I too will be in the market next year when our '05 Envoy lease is up. The GMC Acadia (SLT-2, AWD) and Saturn OUTLOOK (XR, AWD) is what I'm considering, although the wife does like the Enclave too. Being that I am going to purchase instead of leasing, I want a pretty well loaded AWD model. So I'll be in the $38-$40k sticker range BEFORE I factor in my GM Supplier pricing or my GM Card earnings (depending on which deal is better). So far I'm leaning more to the Acadia, but who knows where I'll lean in a year?

[Intrepidation]

Why would you replace the Equinox with the same vehicle with a Pontiac badge? The Envoy is erm...outdated...rubbish? At least the 7-7x or TrailBlazer SS have good suspension tuning. If you have to cheap out, go for the Acadia.

As others have said, the Enclave isn't aimed at "Joe Sixpack"

[AAS]

Just find one with less options! Our Enclave CXL has the 19" chrome wheels, power sunroof & skylight, CD changer, Bose audio, remote start, ultrasonic rear park assist and a few other things... it stickered for less than $38k!

[Oracle of Delphi]

Why would you replace the Equinox with the same vehicle with a Pontiac badge? The Envoy is erm...outdated...rubbish? At least the 7-7x or TrailBlazer SS have good suspension tuning. If you have to cheap out, go for the Acadia.

As others have said, the Enclave isn't aimed at "Joe Sixpack"

We love the Equinox, we don't like the Chevy dealer, however I do like our Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealer and their service department is top notch. Therefore if I buy the Pontiac Torrent I get the vehicle we love along with the best service department for miles around. I'm leaning to the Torrent, then Envoy and in a distant 3rd place is the Acadia. The Acadia looks to square for my taste and I don't buy Saturns so the Outlook is out because it is a Saturn and it also suffers from the same squareness in my view.

In the end it boils down to how much SUV can I get for the least amount of money, so rebates/incentives and GM Employee discount will pull me into making a decision either for or against a particular SUV. So Enclave is out for me as I am unwilling to pay that amount of money for any SUV. Anyway as I said, a lot can happen in a year, perhaps GM will have a Fire Sale to get inventory moving, you never know!

[Mike The Canadian]

Yeah I do feel it is expensive and I dont see it selling here at all...

I've seen them at the dealerships...and i've only seen one on the road...only one...the same ones have been sitting at the dealerships for ages....if you ask me it's the price...if i'm going to blow 50 grand (read canadian) it's sure as hell not going to be a vehicle...

[CARBIZ]

Of course, you do realize they are just coming out. As with the Solstice, Sky and other recent models, better pricing come to he who waits..............

I drove to Peterborough two weeks ago and was tripping over Acadias. I am sure the chattering classes in Riverdale and Rosedale will at least look at the Buick because the Press is telling them to. In a sea of shiny BMWs and Lexi, there will be a few trail blazers (no pun intended) who will want to show up to Mitzi's fundraiser in something different.

[CSpec]

Why lower the price when it's selling faster than they can make them? If anything they should raise it...

[CARBIZ]

Why lower the price when it's selling faster than they can make them? If anything they should raise it...

As I am sure you know, there are two sets of "lowering prices." The first when the dealer won't budge on sticker because there is a line for the vehicle, and the second when the manufacturer realizes it goofed on the "market price" and has to throw in incentives and rates. When a vehicle is hot, the dealer won't come off MSRP, or at least not by much. So wait a few months. Or see if you can get a better deal on a factory order.

If the manufacturer "raises" prices, the media goes ballistic; if the dealer charges over list, C&G posters go berserk! :AH-HA_wink:

[Drew Dowdell]

In the end it boils down to how much SUV can I get for the least amount of money, so rebates/incentives and GM Employee discount will pull me into making a decision either for or against a particular SUV. !

Envoy it is then.

[RBB]

I don't buy Saturns so the Outlook is out because it is a Saturn and it also suffers from the same squareness in my view.

Off topic, but I'm curious about this statement. You've made it no secret that you work closely with Opel. Since more and more of Saturn's lineup is becoming Opel-derived, why would you not buy one "because it's a Saturn" and you "don't buy Saturns"

The Outlook specifically I can understand since it is not an Opel-derived vehicle and you don't care for the styling. But it sounds like you're dismissing the brand entirely.

Back on topic, since $42K is out of your price range (and understandibly so), what is your price range. Would you consider a new Vue?

-RBB

[Satty]

When I brother-in-law and I stopped to look at an Enclave, there was an Acadia parked right next to it, both had stickers of $38k. Yikes.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Off topic, but I'm curious about this statement. You've made it no secret that you work closely with Opel. Since more and more of Saturn's lineup is becoming Opel-derived, why would you not buy one "because it's a Saturn" and you "don't buy Saturns"

The Outlook specifically I can understand since it is not an Opel-derived vehicle and you don't care for the styling. But it sounds like you're dismissing the brand entirely.

Back on topic, since $42K is out of your price range (and understandibly so), what is your price range. Would you consider a new Vue?

-RBB

You want to know about my Saturn stance huh, well ok but remember you asked for it! :AH-HA_wink: The 1st and most important issue with Saturn for me is the Dealer network here in DE, MD & PA, where I live in Delaware all Saturn Dealerships are owned by one automotive group, in Delaware, West Chester, PA, and the Eastern Shore of Maryland. I was not impressed with the company and how they run the Saturn dealership network in these 3 states. To say their service department is lacking is putting it mildly in my opinion, and even having warranty work done correctly was a constant battle. I got tired of bringing my wife's Saturn at that time, back 3 or 4 times before they got it fixed correctly. Also why would I buy Saturn with their no haggle pricing when I can now buy the same vehicle platforms for the most part at any other GM dealership and wheel and deal and still get my GM Employee Discount. I also am not willing to drive to New Jersey about an hour away to purchase a car there and have it serviced there. So in this regard Saturn is dead to me, not a choice at all.

Secondly, there is history between the Wilmington plant and Saturn, let's just say it was not a happy marriage. It was funny when Saturn 1st came to Wilmington, they actually thought they were a seperate car company (Does that sound like any car company you know in Australia?). I used to tell them that they were owned by GM and they would eventually be assimilated by GM when it suited GM to do so. I actually remember a meeting at Wilmington where Saturn said it would Saturnize all of GM, I laughed outloud, and said you mean, they will asimmilate you, don't you? That was 10 years ago, the Wilmington plant has been turned back into a GM plant and low and behold so has Springhill, TN. Try as Saturn did to have me removed from the Wilmington plant, they did not succeed, you see I report to a higher authority, no it's not God, but it's close! In the end Saturn became a car company in name only, just as I had predicted it would so many years ago.

[CaddyXLR-V]

If they could potentially take sales away from the GMT-900s, since they are so similar in size, they will need to charge a similar price.

[eldiablobanshee]

When I brother-in-law and I stopped to look at an Enclave, there was an Acadia parked right next to it, both had stickers of $38k. Yikes.

I AM SURE THE ACADIA HAD MORE OPTIONS.

[Intrepidation]

You want to know about my Saturn stance huh, well ok but remember you asked for it! :AH-HA_wink: The 1st and most important issue with Saturn for me is the Dealer network here in DE, MD & PA, where I live in Delaware all Saturn Dealerships are owned by one automotive group, in Delaware, West Chester, PA, and the Eastern Shore of Maryland. I was not impressed with the company and how they run the Saturn dealership network in these 3 states. To say their service department is lacking is putting it mildly in my opinion, and even having warranty work done correctly was a constant battle. I got tired of bringing my wife's Saturn at that time, back 3 or 4 times before they got it fixed correctly. Also why would I buy Saturn with their no haggle pricing when I can now buy the same vehicle platforms for the most part at any other GM dealership and wheel and deal and still get my GM Employee Discount. I also am not willing to drive to New Jersey about an hour away to purchase a car there and have it serviced there. So in this regard Saturn is dead to me, not a choice at all.

Secondly, there is history between the Wilmington plant and Saturn, let's just say it was not a happy marriage. It was funny when Saturn 1st came to Wilmington, they actually thought they were a seperate car company (Does that sound like any car company you know in Australia?). I used to tell them that they were owned by GM and they would eventually be assimilated by GM when it suited GM to do so. I actually remember a meeting at Wilmington where Saturn said it would Saturnize all of GM, I laughed outloud, and said you mean, they will asimmilate you, don't you? That was 10 years ago, the Wilmington plant has been turned back into a GM plant and low and behold so has Springhill, TN. Try as Saturn did to have me removed from the Wilmington plant, they did not succeed, you see I report to a higher authority, no it's not God, but it's close! In the end Saturn became a car company in name only, just as I had predicted it would so many years ago.

I miss my dealer..they had excellent service.

Anyway, if you're fixed on having one of 3 vehicles, and don't like the Acadia, get a Torrent GXP.

[RBB]

You want to know about my Saturn stance huh, well ok but remember you asked for it! :AH-HA_wink: The 1st and most important issue with Saturn for me is the Dealer network here in DE, MD & PA, where I live in Delaware all Saturn Dealerships are owned by one automotive group, in Delaware, West Chester, PA, and the Eastern Shore of Maryland. I was not impressed with the company and how they run the Saturn dealership network in these 3 states. To say their service department is lacking is putting it mildly in my opinion, and even having warranty work done correctly was a constant battle. I got tired of bringing my wife's Saturn at that time, back 3 or 4 times before they got it fixed correctly. Also why would I buy Saturn with their no haggle pricing when I can now buy the same vehicle platforms for the most part at any other GM dealership and wheel and deal and still get my GM Employee Discount. I also am not willing to drive to New Jersey about an hour away to purchase a car there and have it serviced there. So in this regard Saturn is dead to me, not a choice at all.

Secondly, there is history between the Wilmington plant and Saturn, let's just say it was not a happy marriage. It was funny when Saturn 1st came to Wilmington, they actually thought they were a seperate car company (Does that sound like any car company you know in Australia?). I used to tell them that they were owned by GM and they would eventually be assimilated by GM when it suited GM to do so. I actually remember a meeting at Wilmington where Saturn said it would Saturnize all of GM, I laughed outloud, and said you mean, they will asimmilate you, don't you? That was 10 years ago, the Wilmington plant has been turned back into a GM plant and low and behold so has Springhill, TN. Try as Saturn did to have me removed from the Wilmington plant, they did not succeed, you see I report to a higher authority, no it's not God, but it's close! In the end Saturn became a car company in name only, just as I had predicted it would so many years ago.

OK, thanks. Sounds reasonable enough.

-RBB

[Oracle of Delphi]

OK, thanks. Sounds reasonable enough.

-RBB

Well, I'm a very reasonable guy!

[buyacargetacheck]

This is what will be the final nail in the coffin for Buick and Pontiac. GM's insistence that these are "premium" brands when in reality they are sold by dealers who, as a whole, don't compare well to Lexus or Acura in terms of dealer service or modern facilities. PBG dealers look and feel closer to Chevy dealers. Enclave will snag few Lexus RX and Acura MDX buyers for this reason alone. Meanwhile, GM cuts Buick's throat. Just wait until Chevy's version comes out. Look out below!!!

Tonight we happened to be going by the dealership so we stopped to only looked at the Buick Enclave. This was a pretty loaded SUV (I might add it was hard to read anything on the sticker as the window was heavily tinted) and when I got to the sticker price of $42,550 dollars, I got a bad case of sticker shock. I automatically figured in my GM Employee discount and it was still more than I am willing to pay.

So now my choices are down to the GMC Envoy (lots of rebate money for this 4 - 6K), Pontiac Torrent (always around 2k in rebates) and the GMC Acadia (no rebate as of today according to my dealer), I have a feeling I may have sticker shock with this too, but a lot can change in a year.

If I am not willing to pay that price even with my GM Employee discount, I wonder how many Joe Sixpacks will?

[Drew Dowdell]

This is what will be the final nail in the coffin for Buick and Pontiac. GM's insistence that these are "premium" brands when in reality they are sold by dealers who, as a whole, don't compare well to Lexus or Acura in terms of dealer service or modern facilities. PBG dealers look and feel closer to Chevy dealers. Enclave will snag few Lexus RX and Acura MDX buyers for this reason alone. Meanwhile, GM cuts Buick's throat. Just wait until Chevy's version comes out. Look out below!!!

Joe Sixpack isn't the target audience for the Enclave at all. Joe Sixpack would rather have an Envoy any day.

The target audience for the Enclave is Martha Homemaker-Realestateagent.

[buyacargetacheck]

Only in the minds of some very wishful GM executives. To be clear, I'm assuming the Enclave is the RX's and MDX's equal product-wise. This isn't enough. It would take maybe a decade of solid 1000 batting to get Buick to Lexus-levels of prestige. Based on GM's record it ain't happening. Great product I'm sure, but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

The target audience for the Enclave is Martha Homemaker-Realestateagent.

[Drew Dowdell]

Only in the minds of some very wishful GM executives. To be clear, I'm assuming the Enclave is the RX's and MDX's equal product-wise. This isn't enough. It would take maybe a decade of solid 1000 batting to get Buick to Lexus-levels of prestige. Based on GM's record it ain't happening. Great product I'm sure, but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

Buick is selling every Enclave they can build.

I think the message is finally starting to get through.

[Sixty8panther]

Fly:

What are you incinuating? For a fwd car the Park Ave Ultra was a hell of a vehicle.

Granted $44k is a bit too much even for MSRP.

[Drew Dowdell]

Fly:

What are you incinuating? For a fwd car the Park Ave Ultra was a hell of a vehicle.

Granted $44k is a bit too much even for MSRP.

For 44k, it needed a V8

[Sixty8panther]

Agreed... and RWD, and a BOF architecture.

[Drew Dowdell]

Agreed... and RWD, and a BOF architecture.

I think just the Aurora V8 would have been sufficient.

[Flybrian]

$44,000 for a Park Avenue Ultra was simply stupid. I love the car, but I cannot rationalize why anyone in the world would pay MSRP for that car when you got the same vehicle with similar or more equipment for $35,000 (SSEi), or a V8 for $37,000 (Aurora, GXP).

[Drew Dowdell]

$44,000 for a Park Avenue Ultra was simply stupid. I love the car, but I cannot rationalize why anyone in the world would pay MSRP for that car when you got the same vehicle with similar or more equipment for $35,000 (SSEi), or a V8 for $37,000 (Aurora, GXP).

I could if it had the V8

[Flybrian]

Yes, but it would have to be absolutely fully-loaded, and I don't define that as including a vinyl top.

[Drew Dowdell]

Yes, but it would have to be absolutely fully-loaded, and that includes a vinyl top. vogues, ventiports, and "classic" grill".

fixed

[Flybrian]

Now you owe ME a Coke.

[balthazar]

Only in the minds of some very wishful GM executives. To be clear, I'm assuming the Enclave is the RX's and MDX's equal product-wise. This isn't enough. It would take maybe a decade of solid 1000 batting to get Buick to Lexus-levels of prestige. Based on GM's record it ain't happening. Great product I'm sure, but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

Did it take hyundai "maybe a decade of solid 1000 batting" to get to --say-- a Chevy or toyota-level of prestige?? And tha coming from a unilaterally wretched history of utter automotive garbage. Why does Buick, with traditional high quality, need this "decade" in your book??

[buyacargetacheck]

Your assumption that Hyundai is at Toyota's level is wrong. Depreciation rates (and the lingering cache of jokes about Hyundai) demonstrate this well.

For Buick to be in the same league with Lexus, it would take a revamp of Buick's sales and service policies. The dealership facilities would also need revamping. This costs money that GM doesn't seem to have. Plus Toyota has more control over its dealer body. It doesn't have to deal with 100 years of legacy. So the chances are slim GM could make it happen even with money.

Further, Buick would have to substantially renew its product line every 4-5 years (or less) just to keep up with Toyota. And its offerings would have to be better over at least 2 cycles. It's one thing to watch sales spike during the first year of a new product. It's another to keep it going year after year. GM doesn't know how to do this anymore except with large pickups and SUVs.

See a problem here?

US Buick Sales:

2001 405,678

2002 432,017

2003 336,788

2004 309,639

2005 282,288

2006 240,657

2007 180,366 (extrapolated)

US Lexus Sales:

2004 287,927

2005 302,895

2006 322,434

2007 320,404 (extrapolated)

Even Lutz now realizes that Buick doesn't compete with Lexus. It can't. It will continue as a soft, well-equipped, better-styled Chevy. And it will be sold at much lower volumes with little gain in prestige. With discounts, Buicks will still end up in Joe Six Pack's garage.

Did it take hyundai "maybe a decade of solid 1000 batting" to get to --say-- a Chevy or toyota-level of prestige?? And tha coming from a unilaterally wretched history of utter automotive garbage. Why does Buick, with traditional high quality, need this "decade" in your book??

Edited July 14, 2007 by buyacargetacheck

[plane]

Bob Lutz delivered on the Solstice.

Bob Lutz delivered on GMT-900's.

Bob Lutz delivered on the Acadia, Enclave, and Outlook.

The CTS and and new Malibu are almost here.

So to say that discounted Buicks will still end up in Joe Six pack's garage?

Buicks in the garage? Yes.

Buicks at Chevrolet prices? Nope.

GM's got the mojo.

So someone might want to listen a little more closely to what Maximum Bob has to say.

Buick now has the Enclave.

Add a Velite and/or a large, rwd, fuel efficient vehicle.

Roadmaster or Riviera anyone?

and people will be changing stories to explain skyrocketing Buick sales.

[Robert Hall]

$42.5 sounds reasonable to me for a well equipped Enclave... that's the price range of a loaded Grand Cherokee Overland..

It's below what a comparable MDX or RX would be. Buick is aiming for the big leagues now, so expect big league pricing for premium vehicles...

[Oracle of Delphi]

$42.5 sounds reasonable to me for a well equipped Enclave... that's the price range of a loaded Grand Cherokee Overland..

It's below what a comparable MDX or RX would be. Buick is aiming for the big leagues now, so expect big league pricing for premium vehicles...

Well Buick should expect me not to buy it. I am unwilling to pay that price for something that to me looks like a tarted up minivan. I can well afford to buy it, it's just that I am unwilling to buy it at that price point, even with my GM Employee discount and GM Card points thrown in. Sorry no can do.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well Buick should expect me not to buy it. I am unwilling to pay that price for something that to me looks like a tarted up minivan. I can well afford to buy it, it's just that I am unwilling to buy it at that price point, even with my GM Employee discount and GM Card points thrown in. Sorry no can do.

Then you're probably also unwilling to buy a tarted up Highlander or Odyssey.... which is just fine with GM because you'll probably end up with a ToroNox or Blazenvoy anyway.

[Robert Hall]

The Envoy seems like a poor second choice to the Enclave, what with the Enclave being new and modern and the Envoy being old and dated (not to mention the truck platform).

[CARBIZ]

Well Buick should expect me not to buy it. I am unwilling to pay that price for something that to me looks like a tarted up minivan. I can well afford to buy it, it's just that I am unwilling to buy it at that price point, even with my GM Employee discount and GM Card points thrown in. Sorry no can do.

[sigh] Another case of the deal is more important than the vehicle.

[Robert Hall]

[sigh] Another case of the deal is more important than the vehicle.

I think a lot of consumers have the mindset that GM is like Wal Mart---'Low Prices Every Day!'...

[sciguy_0504]

If you can get a $44K Enclave and $44K Acadia and the Acadia comes with more equipment, and you don't care about brand, what would you choose? Design surely comes into the equation at some point but I believe more people place value for money over styling.

I think this is part of the problem you have. I just can't explain it.

However, the Enclave is all car and, IMO, deserves that price.

[emh]

Well Buick should expect me not to buy it. I am unwilling to pay that price for something that to me looks like a tarted up minivan. I can well afford to buy it, it's just that I am unwilling to buy it at that price point, even with my GM Employee discount and GM Card points thrown in. Sorry no can do.

In order for Buick to have any chance of survival, they need to draw a different clientele from Chevy/GMC, and that means it's perfectly okay to forego the buyers who are value-oriented. A big appeal of luxury brands (other than the vehicle itslef) is exclusivity. By definition, you can't appeal to value-oriented buyers and aspire to be a luxury brand.

The point someone raised about dealership experience is a good one. That's another aspect Buick really needs to pay attention to if they want to woo luxury buyers.

[GMTruckGuy74]

It's going to be hard for Buick dealers to be luxurious in many locations, as they are being paired up with Pontiac & GMC. Eckenhoff Buick in Cherry Hill (NJ) was a stand-alone dealership and had that upscale look to it. They closed and the franchise was sold to Burns Pontiac-GMC/Hyundai (although they're next door in a separate building, they all share the same lot). Burns property is too small for three brands, let alone the newly added Buick brand. The building appeals to Pontiac & GMC buyers, but isn't upscale enough for where Buick wants to go. Land is expensive in NJ, especially for highway frontage (where they are now), so I don't forsee a move to a newer facitlity in the works. My local dealership, about 1 mile from my house, is based out of an old grocery store. The property is way too small, the showroom is a joke, and again since they have highway frontage now and land prices in my area are soaring, I don't forsee a move anytime soon.

My point? A good majority of the Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealers are in older facilities (sales & service) with a staff (sales & service) not capable of dealing with a luxury-buying customer. This may prove to be the hard part of selling Enclaves to more Lexus/Acura/Infinity buyers.

[CARBIZ]

They are going to have to put the cart before the horse. As the P-B-GMC brands are merged, the dealers that remain should be more successful and will be able to afford the renovations and upgrades to compete.

I have seen a lot of older GM dealers in old buildings that were in a great location; whereas a lot of import stores are in great buildings but are confined to the fringe areas and not as nice locations. A bit of a trade off there, I think.

This is the challenge for GM and it is going to be a painful process. This is not unlike the battle between the "mom and pop" video stores that built the video rental business in the late '70s and early '80s with the giants that later started wiping them out. I witnessed that evolution, too.

[thegriffon]

It's a good analogy, and a big part of GMs problem, which is why they "encourage" (all they can do) dealer consolidation. You may remember GM has recently declined to give additional franchises to some dealers who didn't want to commit to the needed renovations.