New Cadillac Observations - - -

[Sixty8panther]

1. The power running borads on the Escalade are AWSOME.

2. White Diamond is STILL the best color for a Cadillac.

3. the GMT-900s 22" wheels make the disk brakes looks small.

4. Interior wise, there is NO doubt in my mind Cadillac deserves an A+

5. 2008 STS looks great, & the 2005-2007 has aged well.

6. The DTS needs to be replaced... like yesterday.

7. I hope the rumors of the SRX's demise are wrong!

[ClassyEldo]

1. The power running borads on the Escalade are AWSOME.

2. White Diamond is STILL the best color for a Cadillac.

3. the GMT-900s 22" wheels make the disk brakes looks small.

4. Interior wise, there is NO doubt in my mind Cadillac deserves an A+

5. 2008 STS looks great, & the 2005-2007 has aged well.

6. The DTS needs to be replaced... like yesterday.

7. I hope the rumors of the SRX's demise are wrong!

I agree with numbers 1, 2, 3, 6 and 7--with the caveat to number 6 being that a totally new high-level, full-sized model replace the current car. As for numbers 4--I think there is still some room for improvement, but overall, they do deserve an "A" (e.g. especially better color selections, including some very light leathers) and for number 5--I have never liked the STS (which softened the A&S themes too much, making it too nebulous or boring), and for the 2008 MCE, they did not do enough with improvements (e.g. the front quarters have the turn indicator, the air duct and the 'GM' badge--all separate)! I can hardly wait until Cadillac offers a new Coupe model--it will likely be stunning if based on the next generation CTS!

[ellives]

I agree with numbers 1, 2, 3, 6 and 7--with the caveat to number 6 being that a totally new high-level, full-sized model replace the current car. As for numbers 4--I think there is still some room for improvement, but overall, they do deserve an "A" (e.g. especially better color selections, including some very light leathers) and for number 5--I have never liked the STS (which softened the A&S themes too much, making it too nebulous or boring), and for the 2008 MCE, they did not do enough with improvements (e.g. the front quarters have the turn indicator, the air duct and the 'GM' badge--all separate)! I can hardly wait until Cadillac offers a new Coupe model--it will likely be stunning if based on the next generation CTS!

I agree on the coupe comment. The demise of the Eldorado is unfortunate when you see the Camry Solara is selling. Just goes to show you it's all about the product.

[Sixty8panther]

Yeah... we need a modern day razorback!!!

It would work beautifuly in the A&S theme....

Edited July 9, 2007 by Sixty8panther

[Flybrian]

DTS still outpaces the geriatric and funny Town Car.

[ellives]

DTS still outpaces the geriatric and funny Town Car.

That's not saying much other than GM-speak for "it's good enough."

[Flybrian]

My point was its a more relevant product than the Town Car. If it had a 6-speed, one couldn't complain. If it switches to Zeta, no one would dare complain.

[ellives]

My point was its a more relevant product than the Town Car. If it had a 6-speed, one couldn't complain. If it switches to Zeta, no one would dare complain.

One couldn't complain? The LS 460 has an 8-speed right? Where's the leadership in a 6-speed in a flagship product?

My hope is they've forgone the revolutionary CHANGES to the DTS in favor of a total replacement of the product with at the very LEAST 6-speed and RWD. Even with this it's tough for me to see why it's revelant in a sea of products in the same market category. Why would I buy it over a 7, LS or S? THAT is the definition of relevance.

[Sixty8panther]

I'd be happy with a freekin powerglide so long as the car is RWD....

[NOS2006]

1. The power running borads on the Escalade are AWSOME.

2. White Diamond is STILL the best color for a Cadillac.

3. the GMT-900s 22" wheels make the disk brakes looks small.

4. Interior wise, there is NO doubt in my mind Cadillac deserves an A+

5. 2008 STS looks great, & the 2005-2007 has aged well.

6. The DTS needs to be replaced... like yesterday.

7. I hope the rumors of the SRX's demise are wrong!

Corrections:

2. For any car.

7. I'm pretty sure they are.

8. The new CTS looks absolutely amazing inside and out on the road (seen three already!).

[Drew Dowdell]

One couldn't complain? The LS 460 has an 8-speed right? Where's the leadership in a 6-speed in a flagship product?

My hope is they've forgone the revolutionary CHANGES to the DTS in favor of a total replacement of the product with at the very LEAST 6-speed and RWD. Even with this it's tough for me to see why it's revelant in a sea of products in the same market category. Why would I buy it over a 7, LS or S? THAT is the definition of relevance.

Well, sadly GM is selling Allison transmission.... I'm sure GM could have lifted a 36 speed out of a tractor trailer for use in the DTS....but really when does it stop?

10 speeds? There has to be a point where, in a passenger vehicle, you just don't need more than a certain number of gears before you just jump to CVT.

[Sixty8panther]

I say 7 is as many as is necessary, IF that.

After six or seven it just becomes a pissing contest.

Fuel economy dependa on GVWR.... all those extra speeds add bulk/weight too!

[ellives]

I say 7 is as many as is necessary, IF that.

After six or seven it just becomes a pissing contest.

Fuel economy dependa on GVWR.... all those extra speeds add bulk/weight too!

I can accept the argument that SOME number is enough... BUT.... GM needs to tell us and PROVE to us why! Why is 6 or 7 in a DTS as good as (or preferably better) than 8? This is where Cadillac was always the leader..... Remember when Lincoln had the 460 CI engine and Cadillac had the 472... and then the 500? You can't tell me these were any better/faster/quicker than the 460. It was just bragging rights... now obviously times have changed and luxury cars aren't all about bragging rights any more but you can't tell me any LS owner isn't going around telling his friends at the country club "it has an 8-speed transmission you know..." When you plunk down that kind of money on a car, you WANT to have something to brag to your friends about. There is nothing class-leading about the DTS. This is the problem Cadillac must overcome.

[Drew Dowdell]

It was just bragging rights... now obviously times have changed and luxury cars aren't all about bragging rights any more

the hell they're not!

Edited July 10, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[ellives]

the hell they're not!

OK - correction - they're not about being the biggest or most displacement, etc.

There's always the bragging rights - after all, we're car guys. What else is there?

[Oracle of Delphi]

If it switches to Zeta, no one would dare complain.

Pontiac Custom-S raises hand! Ummm, excuse me, but I have a complaint.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[ellives]

Pontiac Custom-S raises hand! Ummm, excuse me, but I have a complaint.

There's always gotta be one in the crowd....

[Drew Dowdell]

Pontiac Custom-S raises hand! Ummm, excuse me, but I have a complaint.

GM could produce a fully working model of Christ himself and there would be someone complaining that the water to wine function only dispenses Merlot.

[ellives]

GM could produce a fully working model of Christ himself and there would be someone complaining that the water to wine function only dispenses Merlot.

LMAO - (Well only if the Lex dispenses Merlot, Cabernet and Pinot Grigio.)

[Flybrian]

Cadillac would sell primarily on design and secondly on affordability. Why spend $80k when you can get a car approaching that level of worth for $60k?

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac would sell primarily on design and secondly on affordability. Why spend $80k when you can get a car approaching that level of worth for $60k?

Sorry, gonna have to disagree there.

Cadillac should NEVER sell on affordability. That should be Buick's job.

Cadillac needs to be tier 1 again.... even if that means I can't afford one.

[balthazar]

...GM needs to tell us and PROVE to us why! Why is 6 or 7 in a DTS as good as (or preferably better) than 8? This is where Cadillac was always the leader..... Remember when Lincoln had the 460 CI engine and Cadillac had the 472... and then the 500? You can't tell me these were any better/faster/quicker than the 460. It was just bragging rights...

Of course, Cadillac never ran print ads with top-to-bottom numbers reading "472" or "500" like lexus is running print ads with a giant "8" on the page . In fact, Cadillac had only 1 print ad featuring the 472, and none featuring the 500... and the only model to get any engine ID badges were the '70-72 E's, even tho the E had the 500 thru '76 and the big cars ran it '75-76. And Cadillac didn't build a larger engine than Lincoln until '68, even tho dispalcements were rising steadily in the preceding decades (Cadillac: '49 : 331, '56 : 365, '59 : 390, '64 : 429). I don't see it being about that at all.

But yes, the 472/500 was a better engineered and performing engine than Lincoln's 460 (tighter tolerances, better longevity, better alloys, better power, better efficiency), but drag performance was never the purpose of these cars.

[Sixty8panther]

The 472/500 motors beat the piss out of Lincoln's 460 all day long in every way!

[emh]

Cadillac would sell primarily on design and secondly on affordability. Why spend $80k when you can get a car approaching that level of worth for $60k?

Affordability (or compromises for the sake of affordability, within reasonable limits) should not be part of Cadillac.

Also, I hope you aren't saying the DTS "approaches" the "worth" of an LS. No one shopping for an LS will even consider a DTS. I'm not saying the DTS has no place at Cadillac (it does, as long as there's a market for it) -- just that it's nowhere near an LS, far less an S or a 7 or an A8.

[Sixty8panther]

Well for starters no one would take those cars (BMW-7, Lex-LS, A8) seriously either if they were FWD.

[Drew Dowdell]

Well for starters no one would take those cars (BMW-7, Lex-LS, A8) seriously either if they were FWD.

For as much living in the past as you do.... the Eldorado and Toronado lost ZERO respect for being FWD.

[balthazar]

>>"No one shopping for an LS will even consider a DTS. I'm not saying the DTS has no place at Cadillac (it does, as long as there's a market for it) -- just that it's nowhere near an LS, far less an S or a 7 or an A8. "<<

Just an anecdote: My millionaire friend owned 2 Cadillacs (the 2nd a '96 Brougham), and replaced that one with an s-class. "Never again" he said firmly after a few trouble-laden years with the s-class, which he dumped just before the warranty ran out. He claimed he would go back to Cadillac instead, tho since then he's only bought fully-loaded Tahoes instead.

[ellives]

Cadillac would sell primarily on design and secondly on affordability. Why spend $80k when you can get a car approaching that level of worth for $60k?

OK - so you can get ALMOST the best for a little less money.

[Drew Dowdell]

OK - so you can get ALMOST the best for a little less money.

In other words, why buy an LS when you can get a DTS and a Solstice for the same money....

[Sixty8panther]

The 1966 Toronado, 1967 Eldorado & many not-so-lame FWD

"classics" like the L29 Cord had NO torque steer & sideways

mounted motor (& trans) like most modern cars...

[Robert Hall]

>>"No one shopping for an LS will even consider a DTS. I'm not saying the DTS has no place at Cadillac (it does, as long as there's a market for it) -- just that it's nowhere near an LS, far less an S or a 7 or an A8. "<<

Just an anecdote: My millionaire friend owned 2 Cadillacs (the 2nd a '96 Brougham), and replaced that one with an s-class. "Never again" he said firmly after a few trouble-laden years with the s-class, which he dumped just before the warranty ran out. He claimed he would go back to Cadillac instead, tho since then he's only bought fully-loaded Tahoes instead.

The father of a friend of mine drove Cadillacs for years, until he bought one of the first year ('03?) Bangle BMW 7-series..nothing but problems, incl. the i-Drive. Unloaded it for a '05 Merc S-class...nothing but problems, in the shop all the time. Now? He's driving an '07 STS.

[Sixty8panther]

I sold & today delivered my very first NEW Cadillac today.

2007 DTS Luxury I.

Platinum/Platinum floor shift.

The secretary of the principal of Andover High (my high school) bought it

with her Mel Brooks lookalike/soundalike husband... nice people!

[Drew Dowdell]

The 1966 Toronado, 1967 Eldorado & many not-so-lame FWD

"classics" like the L29 Cord had NO torque steer & sideways

mounted motor (& trans) like most modern cars...

The very idea that you say that the 66 Toronado didn't have torque steer is just plain laughable!

[balthazar]

It would be... if he was wrong.

[Sixty8panther]

How can you have torque steer when the car's wheels

are both getting exactly 50% of the power? If there is

a FWD car with a longitudinally mounted motor but

unequal-length half shafts then I'd love to see it but

the Toronado is NOT one. I guess there might be one

out there... the Bugatti EB110's motor is offset & the

trans. is mounted off-center, so technically that

would have torque steer if it was not AWD.

[emh]

The father of a friend of mine drove Cadillacs for years, until he bought one of the first year ('03?) Bangle BMW 7-series..nothing but problems, incl. the i-Drive. Unloaded it for a '05 Merc S-class...nothing but problems, in the shop all the time. Now? He's driving an '07 STS.

That's good to hear! The STS is a car that can appeal to BMW and MB buyers. My comment about those buyers not considering was specifically about the DTS (which I clearly said in that post).

[ellives]

The 1966 Toronado, 1967 Eldorado & many not-so-lame FWD

"classics" like the L29 Cord had NO torque steer & sideways

mounted motor (& trans) like most modern cars...

The "sideways" motor design was accomplished in these cars by using chain drive... something that would not be accepted by today's buyers I'm sure.

[CARBIZ]

For as much living in the past as you do.... the Eldorado and Toronado lost ZERO respect for being FWD.

Yes, there was a time when GM was lauded for the advanced Eldo, Toro - but that was before the "experts" decided all luxury cars had to do 1.3G on the skidpad and 0-60 in 2.2 sec.

[balthazar]

The "sideways" motor design was accomplished in these cars by using chain drive... something that would not be accepted by today's buyers I'm sure.

You misinterpret: the Toro and Eldo did not have 'sideways' mounted V-8s- they were mounted as RWD vehicles are: longitudinally, not transversely. But the chain drive THM425s were deathly silent and had incredible durability.... what about either wouldn't today's buyer accept?? There's nothing to object over.

[ellives]

For as much living in the past as you do.... the Eldorado and Toronado lost ZERO respect for being FWD.

This is pure revisionist history. It is in fact one of the ways in which GM was being innovative which is lost today. It lead the way for a great deal of modern automobile design today where vehicles are FWD where none of it was back in the mid-60's. Much of the complaints about FWD today were known when the technology was developed. The problem GM has (or any other manufacturer for that matter) is aligning the timing of technology developments and deployments. I am referring to the concept of traction control addressing the void in traction performance between FWD and RWD design. Traction control is one of the reasons RWD has become acceptable because it puts RWD on an even footing wtih FWD. This caused the manufacturers to rethink their ideas on drive train design. Of course, Toyota had an advantage when designing the LS because they were late to the game and understood RWD would be the platform of choice for luxury cars by then.

[Sixty8panther]

ellives:

Agreed. RWD does NOT pose a real world disadvantage anymore, but it does

present a million and one ADVANTAGES. Esp. weight distribution, high perf.

driving, fun-to-drive factor, wheelbase proportioning & most of all durrability.

[ellives]

ellives:

Agreed. RWD does NOT pose a real world disadvantage anymore, but it does

present a million and one ADVANTAGES. Esp. weight distribution, high perf.

driving, fun-to-drive factor, wheelbase proportioning & most of all durrability.

Absolutely agreed.... FWD effectively sucks from a driver enthusiast's perspective.

[Sixty8panther]

Since we're on the same page and you live in New Hampshire you should

totally come down for a car show sometime. Maybe Kimball Farms in

Westford, MA... it's every thursday...?

[ellives]

Since we're on the same page and you live in New Hampshire you should

totally come down for a car show sometime. Maybe Kimball Farms in

Westford, MA... it's every thursday...?

I should do that. I'm only about 30 miles from there as a write this. It would be an excuse to get my '76 road worthy.

[Sixty8panther]

Cool... I agree. I'll PM you with my phone #.