2008 Buick Lucerne CXL - Autoweek

[Flybrian]

2008 Buick Lucerne CXL
AT A GLANCE

Link to Original Article @ AutoWeek | Published 07/06/07, 9:03 am et

AS-TESTED PRICE: $37,950
DRIVETRAIN: 3.8-liter V6; fwd, four-speed automatic
OUTPUT: 197 hp @ 5200 rpm, 227 lb-ft @ 3800 rpm
CURB WEIGHT: 3969 lb
FUEL ECONOMY (EPA): 20 mpg
OPTIONS: Audio system, including CD and MP3 playback, DVD-based touch-screen navigation ($1,945); luxury package, including power and heated front seats with memory, heated steering wheel ($995); driver-confidence package, including remote start, rear park assist, heated washer fluid, StabiliTrak, RainSense wipers ($995); sunroof ($900); heated and cooled seats ($895); 17-inch chrome wheels ($750); Harmon/Kardon premium audio ($495); crystal red tint premium paint ($495); side blind-zone alert ($395); lane-departure warning system ($295); chrome grille ($195)

----------------------

OUR TAKE: The Lucerne is a big car in today’s world, a smooth, quiet and comfortable big car. Settle into its soft, flat bucket seat, flip on the XM satellite radio and just cruise.

The standard six-cylinder is nicely matched with the chassis; if driven like an enthusiast, the 3.8 definitely feels underpowered. But the majority of Lucerne buyers are likely not in as big a hurry as most auto journalists. Hot-rod grandpas can always opt for the V8—or wait for the even more powerful Super trim that bows next year.

The Lucerne rides exactly as you’d expect of a Buick. Bumps and potholes are easily soaked up by the car’s soft suspension and, as expected, body roll is plentiful. Again, most buyers probably wouldn’t have it any other way. As for the Lucerne’s lane-departure warning and blind-spot detection systems, we found them mildly useful. Unlike the lane-departure system offered by Infiniti, the one Buick uses is not nearly as intrusive.

Fun to drive? Not necessarily. Near perfect at the end of a grueling day? Absolutely.

[big blue]

38k for that tested Lucerne? Yikes. Dump the high tech toys and buy the damn CXS. If I had the money I would be interested in getting this car, why? "Near perfect at the end of a grueling day? Absolutely." If I have to have one car and can't afford the sports car that I desire, then at least give me a nice comfy vehicle that won't make my day worse as I'm commuting home.

[Paolino]

When's the MCE for the Lucerne? 2009?

[bowtie_dude]

GM needs to get that dog 3800 out of a $25k sedan. Just offer the N* across the board and be done with it.

[enzl]

GM needs to get that dog 3800 out of a $25k sedan. Just offer the N* across the board and be done with it.

I'd be happy if they got it out of this $38k (!) sedan. I just can't see this vehicle being worth more than a TL, G or even a 300C, if you want to go apples to apples.

Buick needs to consolidate these option packages and get the pricing within shouting distance of transaction prices. I can honestly think of 50 vehicles I'd sooner drop $38k (or less) on.

(anyone notice that's a N* vehicle in the pic?)

Edited July 8, 2007 by enzl

[bowtie_dude]

I'd be happy if they got it out of this $38k (!) sedan. I just can't see this vehicle being worth more than a TL, G or even a 300C, if you want to go apples to apples.

Buick needs to consolidate these option packages and get the pricing within shouting distance of transaction prices. I can honestly think of 50 vehicles I'd sooner drop $38k (or less) on.

(anyone notice that's a N* vehicle in the pic?)

The 3800 doesn't need to be in anything. Neither does the 3500, 3400 or 3900.

For $38k there's a slew of vehicles I'd buy without even batting an eye.

[VenSeattle]

Not everyone paying $38k want a sports sedan (compact, midsize, or whatever.)

The article is actually objective unlike some reponses who fail to recognize there are preferences in this world that are different from their own. The Lucerne is a great place to "de-stress" after a busy day and is comfortable for 99% of every day driving and 100% on long trips. I'd prefer the V8 also, but the 3800 is reliable and better on gas than the Northstar.

[bowtie_dude]

Not everyone paying $38k want a sports sedan (compact, midsize, or whatever.)

The article is actually objective unlike some reponses who fail to recognize there are preferences in this world that are different from their own. The Lucerne is a great place to "de-stress" after a busy day and is comfortable for 99% of every day driving and 100% on long trips. I'd prefer the V8 also, but the 3800 is reliable and better on gas than the Northstar.

There are engines that are just as reliable and efficient as the 3800 (3.4, 3.5, 3.9) that are more refined, sound better and just plain BETTER. GM is the only company I know of putting the same engine in its new cars that it was putting into them 10-15 years ago. Sure, the 2007 Lucerne looks better, rides better, and has better fit'n'finish than a 1995 Lesabre but its still powered by the same worthless 3800 Series II OHV V6.

Edited July 9, 2007 by bowtie_dude

[enzl]

Not everyone paying $38k want a sports sedan (compact, midsize, or whatever.)

The article is actually objective unlike some reponses who fail to recognize there are preferences in this world that are different from their own. The Lucerne is a great place to "de-stress" after a busy day and is comfortable for 99% of every day driving and 100% on long trips. I'd prefer the V8 also, but the 3800 is reliable and better on gas than the Northstar.

There are literally dozens of non-compact, non-sport sedans, wagons & CUV s which would get my dollar. My preference, clearly, but also, judging from objective #s like sales figures, I'd say this vehicle, which replaced both Park Ave and LeSabre, is not resonating with the masses as it should have.

IMO, the V6 doesn't help matters. And $38k for that vehicle ---especially when it shares a showroom floor with the modern, stylish & more useful Enclave at the same price---is a joke.

For $28-30k, I might look the other way. For $38k, I can't give the General a free pass---its an example of how they have left Buick to the wolves and it's myopic, old GM BS, IMO.

Even old persons who don't like to drive (or the people who feel similarly but are further from the cold hand of death) know value when they see it.

*And please refrain from 'de-stressing' while sharing the roads with me and my family---go to the gym or get a massage for that ...

[Drew Dowdell]

While I would personally prefer the 3.6 be in there... I've been behind the wheel of a Lucerne V6 a few times and have no issues with the 3800. It's a completely different beast than my CTS.... and I drive it accordingly.

[balthazar]

I drove my father's V-6 Lucerne once and I thought it was a fine, quiet, composed, comfortable ride- no complaints. Not for me, but no complaints.

Oh, and my 'Atomic Engine Refinement-O-Meter' was on the fritz, so I couldn't get a reading vs. another car that I also wouldn't be buying on that singular deciding factor.

[Paolino]

Seriously though, I understand people who purchase the 3800 aren't the crowd to want to slam the pedal and get a roar and a ton of power, but I feel there should be more available. I'm the type of person that would generally be satisfied by the 3800, and be really disappointed in the few times I want to punch the gas and get a nice response. It'd be nice to see the 3.6L in there, and I hope it finds it's home there. I mean, something has to--this is it for the 3800. If they keep it on past 2008, I just don't know what to say--nor would I understand how they'd ever do it since they're not making it anymore after this year!

I say chuck it because we're giving Buick the image of a premium car company. DOHC engines seem to be flooding the other brands... why not Buick as well? The public has been brainwashed to want DOHC engines, so give it to them. It's not like they have to create them from scratch. Hell, there are tons of new ecotecs and 3.6s in Chevy and Saturn already--two brands sub-Buick.

[ponchoman49]

The 3800 had no business in the 2006 Lucerne CXL models let alone the 2008 models! And Buick discontinued the lower priced CXL V8 so that you are now stuck with 40K CXS's which sit languishing on the lots for ages. The only model the 3800 should be in is the value leader 25K base version(now 27K for 2008) and it has no business in a 38K sedan. Lutz and crew screwed up hard on this one. Just think how much more seriously magazine editors and consumers would take this car with the 3.6 and 6 speed automatic, which is already available in the 24K Saturn Aura but not this 38K Buick. And GM wonders why it's in it's current predicament

[CARBIZ]

The 3800 had no business in the 2006 Lucerne CXL models let alone the 2008 models! And Buick discontinued the lower priced CXL V8 so that you are now stuck with 40K CXS's which sit languishing on the lots for ages. The only model the 3800 should be in is the value leader 25K base version(now 27K for 2008) and it has no business in a 38K sedan. Lutz and crew screwed up hard on this one. Just think how much more seriously magazine editors and consumers would take this car with the 3.6 and 6 speed automatic, which is already available in the 24K Saturn Aura but not this 38K Buick. And GM wonders why it's in it's current predicament

....or could they be hampered by union contracts and commitments to keep the engine plant where the 3.8 is made open? Just wondering. I am sure a lot of GM's plans are tainted by the prospect of antagonizing contract commitments. I was surprised to see the 3.8 in the Buick and not the Impala, but how many fires can Lutz & Co. put out at once?

[gmcbob]

....or could they be hampered by union contracts and commitments to keep the engine plant where the 3.8 is made open? Just wondering. I am sure a lot of GM's plans are tainted by the prospect of antagonizing contract commitments. I was surprised to see the 3.8 in the Buick and not the Impala, but how many fires can Lutz & Co. put out at once?

I've actually been wasting my time, okay, maybe not totally wasting my time, just right now trying to determine whether GM was going to go ahead and put the 3.6L / 6 spd. automatic combo that's in their Aura in the Lucerne to compete with the Avalon. But it looks like they haven't, and I think this post is probably why. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it has something to do with satisfying a prior commitment to some sort of UAW nonsense. Trying to fend off Toyota must be the most frustrating job for GM's management right now!

[Drew Dowdell]

GM is the only company I know of putting the same engine in its new cars that it was putting into them 10-15 years ago.

nissan VQ

Ford 3.0 Duratec and 4.6

Chrysler 2.7 and 3.5

Toyota 2.5-3.0 litre V6s only recently replaced

Not defending GM on this one, I think the 3.6 should be in there as the base engine.... but I have driven a Lucerne with the 3800 multiple times and it is a perfectly pleasing engine for the purpose of this car. If you want more power, get the N*.

Show of hands... how many of you who are bashing the Lucerne with the 3800 have actually spent more than a round the block test drive behind the wheel?

[Paolino]

nissan VQ

Ford 3.0 Duratec and 4.6

Chrysler 2.7 and 3.5

Toyota 2.5-3.0 litre V6s only recently replaced

Not defending GM on this one, I think the 3.6 should be in there as the base engine.... but I have driven a Lucerne with the 3800 multiple times and it is a perfectly pleasing engine for the purpose of this car. If you want more power, get the N*.

Show of hands... how many of you who are bashing the Lucerne with the 3800 have actually spent more than a round the block test drive behind the wheel?

Well, not that I disagree with you, but I've rolled my eyes at the Ford 3.0 being around, and the Chrysler 2.7 is not something I like seeing in existence. The VQ has been continually updated in many ways, including power increases. It makes a substantial amount more power than the larger GM 3.8L does.

The 3.8 just shouldn't be in a car of this price range, not to mention it's supposed to be premium?!

[lakefire]

the 3800 is buick. It's a buick engine and any owner of the 3800 will want another car w/ it, because it is so great.

Stop with the 3800 hatin', it's a great engine.

[VenSeattle]

the 3800 is buick. It's a buick engine and any owner of the 3800 will want another car w/ it, because it is so great.

Stop with the 3800 hatin', it's a great engine.

- A lot of people here still don't understand this. I've owned two Buicks with this engine and grew up in three Buicks with this engine. Is that sad? Should I be ashamed? My parents and I are a testament to the reputation of reliability this engine has. Do I think Buick could benefit from a new DOHC V6 providing it has similar reliability with better performance and fuel economy? Yes, but GM didn’t have anything of the such until recently. There are still tens of thousands of loyal LeSabre owners out there that look for this engine when they come in to trade. The 3800 will be dead in a few years, but it was not out of place in the Park Avenue or LeSabre, nor is it in the Lucerne.

It's near time for this engine to be put to rest, but it has served GM and Buick well. It's reliable, inexpensive to maintain, and powerful enough to move two tons with little rev or effort. GM is making a wise move in how it phases out this engine. Many Buick loyalists would only give up the 3800 for originally Cadillac sourced/engineered engines like the 3.6l and Northstar. Not a bad concession as far as they are concerned.

As a side note, I never personally bought a Buick for this engine, but it never inhibited me from my decision either.

[gm4life]

The CXL 4.6 is gone for '08?

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Not getting into the debate here, but when you think long term or used:

1. Cadillacs are expensive to fix period.

2. That Northstar engine is expensive to fix and not as reliable either. I know. You have to get past the horsepower thing.

3. The Aurora V8 and Shortstar V6 are from the Northstar family of engines. The only place they got used was Oldsmobiles. When Intrigue and Aurora died, the Shortstar died too. Why? It was not severing GM in any other applications.

4. Aurora owners that go to Cadillac dealerships get treated like dirt by Cadillac dealers because they are the only ones that can repair the engine. They know it. I have seen cases where they will not fix it either.

5. The last time Cadillac had a reliable engine was the 4.9 Liter V8.

6. That Northstar engine is high maintenance too. I do not trust that engine.

Cars are like buying small houses and making an investment. You cannot just drop and engine in a car. I know as I finding this out with my Toronado. I wanted to put the 3800 Series II in my car, but because of the pcm, bcm, ecm and a few other items, I cannot. I have to go with the the factory 3800 Series I. Buick cannot just drop the 3.6 liter V6 in that car. It is a matter of economics when switching engines in a model life cycle.

I like the 3800 as it has been reliable, efficient, and nicely powered. Yes, it is getting old. Wished GM would have redesigned it.

Edited July 25, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Drew Dowdell]

You basically said the same thing 6 times.

Cadillac has the 3.6 which so far is proving to be quite reliable.

[Flybrian]

I will rebutt that the Northstar has proven to be extremely reliable and dependable if - like all modern engines - proper maintenance is done. I cannot argue with the lack of attentiveness or service given by Cadillac dealers to Olds owners, but that's more a condition of the dealer, not the engine.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

You basically said the same thing 6 times.

Cadillac has the 3.6 which so far is proving to be quite reliable.

I did not say anything about the 3.6. I was talking about the Northstar. I said Buick cannot just drop the engine in the car.

I will rebutt that the Northstar has proven to be extremely reliable and dependable if - like all modern engines - proper maintenance is done. I cannot argue with the lack of attentiveness or service given by Cadillac dealers to Olds owners, but that's more a condition of the dealer, not the engine.

I repeat, I do not trust that engine. I used to be a fan of it, until I used to go to the dealership with my first Ninety Eight all the time and the repair bills I saw for people who had the Northstar V8. My own mechanic charges more to fix that engine and he is independent. He even said he would not buy a car with that engine.

Information on trouble areas on the STS with the Northstar V8 ( 1998-2004)

Engine knock: The engine makes ticking noises and knocking noises that sound like main bearing knock, often due to cylinder carbon buildup. (1998-99)

Engine knock: Engine knock, especially when cold, may be due to carbon buildup in combustion chambers. (2000-01)

Engine temperature: Overheating and coolant loss may be due to rough surface on radiator filler neck. Neck should be sanded smooth and cap replaced. (1999-2000)

Fuel gauge: The fuel gauge reads empty or swings between empty and full due to problem with the in-tank sending unit. (1998)

Oil leak: Beware rear main seal leaks on Northstar engine. (1996-99)

Information on trouble areas on STS with Northstar V8 (2005-2006)

Fuel gauge: The engine may not start or may stall because the tank is empty yet the gauge shows fuel remaining, or the fuel gauge will not show full after refilling due to sulfur corrosion of the fuel level sender and if after treating with Fuel System Cleaner PLUS the problem remains, the sender may need to be replaced. (2005-06)

Oil leak: Oil leaks at the timing cover on 4.6L engines may require a gasket or a new timing cover. (2004-05)

Years later, and that whole oil leak and head gasket issue is still a problem. Fuel gauge still a problem.

To repair the timing chain?? Over a thousand dollars... That is before labor. The price? $1,090

Real reliable huh?? I do not trust that engine.

Notice that the CTS does not use the Northstar engine. It could have. It does not. The new one 2008 does not use it either.

Repair costs:

Cadillac with a Northstar V8:

Item Name Repair Cost

A/C Compressor $730

Alternator $735

Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $1,350

Brakes $570

Constant Velocity Joints $1,050

Exhaust System $595

Radiator $520

Shocks and/or Struts $1,350

Timing Chain or Belt $1,090

Buick with a 3800 V6:

Item Name Repair Cost

A/C Compressor $500

Alternator $265

Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $850

Brakes $365

Constant Velocity Joints $750

Exhaust System $475

Radiator $450

Shocks and/or Struts $900

Timing Chain or Belt $325

Edited July 26, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Cananopie]

As a side note, I never personally bought a Buick for this engine, but it never inhibited me from my decision either.

Actually after owning my 3100 Skylark and having two separate blown head gaskets, I made my next decision deliberately a 3800. Hoping it would last as long as my first LeSabre which had 294,006 miles on it when it died (without me giving it oil for a few months). I've owned 3 3800s to date and I have never even had a slight problem with any of them.

[Flybrian]

LOL where are you getting those repair costs?

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

LOL where are you getting those repair costs?

That is no joke. Those are real actual costs. You think it is funny, it is not. I am telling you I know for a fact they charge more to fix Cadillacs, plus I saw the prices at the dealership myself. My mechanic charges more to fix Cadillacs too. Not only that, I had a new student come in yesterday. He just sold his shop he has here to come back to school. I got a wealth of information from him. He said the oil pan design is faulty on the Cadillacs with the Northstar. He said he buys cars too. He said a man tried to sell him two Cadillacs with Northstar V8's and no one will touch them. He said pretty much all mechanics in the industry charge more to fix Cadillacs. He said Cadillacs are awesome, but expensive as hell to fix and repair. He is a big GM fan, and would tell anyone not to buy a Cadillac with a Northstar. He said that 3.6 liter V6 is fine. He said himself that engine is prone to oil leaks just like I said earlier in these posts. I told him about this thread too.

That is up to you to want to not believe it and laugh. I know the facts. He said if anyone buys a Buick Lucerne, he would tell them in a heartbeat to get the 3800 V6. He said too many people buy out of emotion and not thinking long term.

[Satty]

A Northstar, when properly maintained, isn't going to have any major problems in the first 5-6 years, just like any other new engine. Its when they get old and mileage adds up that problems occur, just like every other new engine. I would have no problem recommending a Northstar equipped vehicle to someone, especially with the warranty GM offers. Many people simply dont keep their new cars long enough for these problems to manifest, they happen to second and third owners who aren't going to be nearly as diligent about things.

[Drew Dowdell]

Notice that the CTS does not use the Northstar engine. It could have. It does not. The new one 2008 does not use it either.

Repair costs:

Cadillac with a Northstar V8:

Item Name Repair Cost

A/C Compressor $730

Alternator $735

Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $1,350

Brakes $570

Constant Velocity Joints $1,050

Exhaust System $595

Radiator $520

Shocks and/or Struts $1,350

Timing Chain or Belt $1,090

Buick with a 3800 V6:

Item Name Repair Cost

A/C Compressor $500

Alternator $265

Automatic Transmission or Transaxle $850

Brakes $365

Constant Velocity Joints $750

Exhaust System $475

Radiator $450

Shocks and/or Struts $900

Timing Chain or Belt $325

Some issues:

Most of those things have nothing to do with the engine. I'm wondering where you got them because brakes on an Aurora should cost no more than brakes on a Park Ave.

The Northstar has two large timing chains, the 3800 one tiny one simply because of the difference between DOHC v. OHV. When the timing belt needed to be changed on my DOHC 3.4 Cutlass, it cost me $895 five years ago. My bet is that a timing chain replacement on a NS is in line with timing chain replacements on other DOHC V8s.

Transaxles, CV joints and radiators should all be the same.

Generally Northstar equipped cars have dual exhaust and most non-S/Ced 3800 have single exhaust.

Cadillacs come with a more sophisticated suspension using Magnetic ride control where as Park Ave can generally take a basic Monroe shock or strut.... what that has to do with the Northstar is beyond me though.

The only things I could see here that could justifiably cost more are the alternator and AC compressor which are not very conveniently located on a NS.

[regfootball]

i've heard northstars burn oil. not just a little. i have not heard of anyone having their northstar die on them however.

Edited August 7, 2007 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

Notice that the CTS does not use the Northstar engine. It could have. It does not. The new one 2008 does not use it either.

No it couldn't. the LS engine barely fits. The NS is much larger.

[Drew Dowdell]

Looking over your number again.... I have to agree with Fly.... some of them are total "LOL"

Over $1,000 for just the part on the timing chains? That would mean that the timing chains were nearly 1/3 the cost of an entire remanufactured NorthStar

[Drew Dowdell]

i've heard northstars burn oil. not just a little. i have not heard of anyone having their northstar die on them however.

They do... they are also 8 quart engines.

Strangely, so is the 3.6

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

That is fine if all of you want to disagree with me. My opinion will not change. I know from experience and what I saw. You can laugh and think it is funny. I do not think it is funny especially when someone is stuck with those repairs. I know I would not buy a 1997-1999 Deville as much I liked the car for the simple fact what is under the hood.

This is something we will never agree on. Try using more tact when you want to laugh at someone. It looks tacky.

So you are telling me that the 350 cubic inch 5.7 V8 in the CTS V is smaller than the Northstar V8?

Just so you know from several Northstar owners:

1997 Cadillac DeVille :

"Motor stinks!"

What things have gone wrong with the car?

Uses 1 quart of oil per 678 miles and the dealer won't honor the service contract.

General comments?

I purchased my 1997 Cadillac Sedan De Ville with 89K+ miles a few months ago. It now has 94K+ miles and it if it wasn't for the high oil consumption, it would be a great car. But it does have a major oil consumption problem and that has just ruined my experience of buying a car I thought was really special. Cadillac has put all their money into commercials, not cars.

After buying my 97 Cadillac I drove it normally and then 3-4 weeks after the purchase, the check engine oil' warning came on. It had just been serviced at the dealer! I checked and found it to be over two quarts low. The car had been a one owner purchased at the Salem, Oregon Cadillac dealer and serviced there regularly according to the salesman so they must have known about it's problems. A week or so later I had the car serviced (lube, oil, filter, etc.) and put in Valvoline 10-30. I've always had a lot of faith in Valvoline. A couple days later I went back to the dealer's service department and started getting the �oh, you'll have to let us do an oil consumption test'�we can't take your word or anyone elses�.blah blah blah.

So I said, OK, do it. Change the oil and start your test' and they did. At 90,334 miles they started the test. At a week or two later they added quart (looked lower than that to me, but it's their test). At 92,281 they added 1 quarts. At 93,390 they added 1 quarts again. The last (4th) check was at 94,579 and they added 2 quarts. That's 6 � quarts of oil in 4242 miles. Looked at another way, that's 678.72 miles per quart of oil. Basically the car is in town and freeway (I-5) driven to and from work 70 miles each week day.

I asked what were they going to do about it and was told they could do the ring decarbonizing for $500 (I pay, not covered in the extended service contract) or they could tear down the engine (15 hours just to take it apart) and if something was BROKE, the 24 month/24,000 miles service contract would pay. But if it was WARE (worn out) that caused the oil loss, I would have to pay! As they service manager representative explained, that is $1500 just to tear the motor apart to find out what is wrong. What would you do?

The service contract states:

"Coverage is limited to the parts described below for the plan selected on the schedule.." (24 month, 24,000 miles)

"Engine---All internal lubricated parts; manifolds; expansion plugs: harmonic balancer; pulleys, engine mounts; oil pan, rotary engine rotor housing; supercharger/turbocharger (factory installed) housing, internal parts, vanes: timing belt/chain and tensioner; timing chain cover; valve cover (s) ; water pump; seals and gaskets within component group. Cases, housings, engine block and cylinder heads are covered only if damaged by the failure of an internally lubricated part."

That's what it says and my car that I bought with a 24month/24,000 miles extended service contract the dealer sold me at 89,000 plus miles uses more oil than any car or truck I've owned since 1969. And the 4.6 liter Cadillac V-8 isn't going to get fixed because the Chevy/Cadillac dealer and the service contract they sold to me for $1997.00 isn't worth a damn!

I really have had good luck with the 83 Firebird, 94 Blazer, 90 Chevy S-10, 96 Chevy S-10 and one or two others. Their V-6 engines held up great and used very little if any oil. But this Northstar V-8 4.6 liter is a the worst oil burning engine I've ever seen or heard of since my 1964 Ford Galaxy 390. And that's General Motors premier top of the line engine!!! Damn, I really like the car! But the engine is horrible. It doesn't leak the oil, it burns it out the exhaust pipes.

2nd owner:

I purchased my 1997 De ville roughly 2 years ago with 82,000 miles on it. The car was a 1 owner and well maintained. After having the car for 6 months the blower motor went out. Luckily at that time I was covered on a service plan that I purchased for an additional $1500.00. This service plan carried a $100 deductible per occurrance. Had I not purchaed this plan it would have been $500.00 to replace. This is not dealer price either. This is my mechanics price. Shortly after, the car would idle rough with a distinctive lope. I took it to my mechanic again and was told the plug wires were shot and needed to be replaced. This was out of my pocket and not covered under warranty. This set me back $324.00. Shortly after that, the car would at certain times not start and would tell me "Security system" on the digital read out. If it did start, when I would be driving down the road the radio, a/c and all dash componets would shut off. I came to find out that using the door key to unlock the door too many times would do something to the security system. I guess it recognizes the keyless entry as some sort of safety device. Once I replaced the battery and began using keyless entry that problem went away. The round speaker in the passenger door fell out and was hanging by the wires when I picked up a friend of mine. All he did was shut the door normally. The back of the drivers seat was hanging off because the clips broke. When I contacted the dealer about this obvious poor quality in a luxury car, I was told the clips were $75.00 and the speaker would be $100.00. I paid to have the speaker replaced and got the clips from a local wrecking yard. The plastic strip that goes across the dashboard (on the top with the red eye sensor" is popped out of place and teeter totters left and right and won't snap back in to place. Today, I am replacing the front struts as the car is a low rider in the front and bottoms out on the smallest dip and chews tires. I called many parts houses around and nobody seems to carry these struts. My particular car is non-electric struts. I found 1 company outside of OEM that makes the struts for my Cadillac. I purchased both of them for $177.00 with shipping and tax. I am putting those on today 4/1/2004 and selling this car as fast as I can. There are only two good things I can say about this car. They would be; The performance of the North Star engine is impressive and the car will get up and run, and of course, the smooth ride of the Cadillac. Everything else is a big thumbs down. If you're thinking of purchasing a used De ville run away. You may send me an email if you like to.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

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97 Cadillac De Ville (Concours, 300HP) with oil consumption problem. My Northstar powered Caddy used to drip a tiny amount of oil due to common oil seal failure. I had that fixed just after the warranty expired, but still at only 39,000 miles (Grrr). Since then I have had to bring the car back every few hundred miles, and always for something different. Now, at 42,500 miles this car is "losing somehow" a quart every 500 miles. It doesn't drip any, and I don't see any smoke exiting out the back. My A/C compressor failed next, then the engine mounts failed, the water pump failed right after that, and a few other things all since the repair at 39K (less than a year ago). Makes ya' kind of wonder doesn't it???

I've noticed a drop of 4-6 MPG in highway driving lately too. Also, sometimes the trunk refuses to open. The remote, the push button and the trunk key all have no effect. Starting/moving shutting off/restarting and then pushing the trunk button will work though.

As for my feelings about the Northstar engine... I really wanted to keep this car for sentimental reasons. It has been serviced at regular intervals by the dealer since new, and has never been abused or wrecked. I'm about $8,000, out-of-pocket, spent since the oil seals were replaced; and am thinking I've learned my lesson about owning another Cadillac too. It's a shame since the Japanese won't build really big, roomy, powerful cars like this. Japanese cars, like my son's Nissan, are too fragile, too narrow, and don't fit large and extra large American adults very comfortably.

Another:

We've had about 6 sevilles and devilles ranging from 1995 - 2004 in the last year and all of them have oil consumption problems. Everytime we put gas we have to add a 1/2 - 1 quart of oil. If we don't the oil light comes on and that's not good... They are CRAP CRAP CRAP... A law suit needs to be filed against GM regarding this.

Another:

I've owned a 1998 Deville since 2000. I bought the car with 26,000 miles, and now it has 130,000.

If you are not mechanically inclined, or you do not have a mechanic competent to work on Cadillacs DO NOT BUY ONE.

In my experience, the dealer techs are not competent to work on these cars. The car was consuming coolant, and I supposedly suffered from the infamous "head bolt failure" at 83,000 miles. The dealer charged me $2000 after getting them to knock off $1000 and GM to kick in another $1000. I now believe I only needed to add the coolant system sealing tablets into the radiator hose to fix the leak. That would have been a $5 fix.

I've replaced the shocks ($1000), strut links ($250), headlight ($150), and other parts. These are expensive cars to own and maintain, but they are cheaper than BMW and Mercedes. What's nice about Cadillac is they depreciate so rapidly, you can buy a lot of car for very little money. The parts are cheaper than luxury imports. www.rockauto.com is a good place for parts.

Make sure you have a competent mechanic your you can do the work yourself. If you don't/aren't, YOU'LL BE VERY SORRY.

Another:

I just bought a 1997 contours, beautiful car, but... thank God that I bought an extended warranty, climate control sensor, over $1000.00 needed replaced, blower motor over $500.00 and stabilizer bar and bushings over $500.00 all covered by warranty with $100.00 deductible. What was not covered was fuel gauge sensor $250.00, now the leveler compressor isn't working and the air conditioning compressor just shut down as being low on refrigerant. What next!

The car has only 63,000 miles on it less than 9,000 miles per year driven. The defrost vents on the dash board keep popping up and I'm told that the dash padding needs replaced to fix, so I just glued the thing down. Now at times in daylight when the day time running lights are on the entire headlight system turns on.

I'm using over 3 quarts of oil for each 1,000 miles.

It's a beauty to drive, but with so many sensors etc too many problems. Quality is not Job one here.

Does not seem so funny now does it?

Different owners all having the same problems. I can go find more.

[The O.C.]

nissan VQ

Ford 3.0 Duratec and 4.6

Chrysler 2.7 and 3.5

Toyota 2.5-3.0 litre V6s only recently replaced

Not defending GM on this one, I think the 3.6 should be in there as the base engine.... but I have driven a Lucerne with the 3800 multiple times and it is a perfectly pleasing engine for the purpose of this car. If you want more power, get the N*.

Show of hands... how many of you who are bashing the Lucerne with the 3800 have actually spent more than a round the block test drive behind the wheel?

Sometimes, and this IS one of those times, a round-the-block test drive isn't even necessary.

GM is trying to promote Buick as a "premium" brand....but they are equipping the vehicle with an ancient powertrain....no matter how "reliable" it's been in the past. GM has GOT to get SERIOUS about trying to change the perceptions of it's product with the masses out there buying imports....and sticking to an old pushrod V6 engine (and 4-speed auto...but I won't beat THAT dead horse) is not the way to do it.

[The O.C.]

the 3800 is buick. It's a buick engine and any owner of the 3800 will want another car w/ it, because it is so great.

Yeah....yeah....and how many non-Buick owners will even consider the car with it? We aren't talking about satisfying died-in-the-wool "traditional" Buick owners....we are talking about competing on a "premium" level.

Buick is touting it's new Enclave as a (very viable) competitor to the Lexus RX350.......at least Buick has equipped that product with an up-to-date powertrain.

Where does that leave Lucerne?

[Drew Dowdell]

So you are telling me that the 350 cubic inch 5.7 V8 in the CTS V is smaller than the Northstar V8?

yes.

As far as outside physical dimensions are concerned, the 5.7 <and 6.0 that is currently in the CTS-V>, are very very small for a V8. In fact, the 5.7 and 6.0 are only slighly larger than the DOHC 3.6 litre.

The northstar is very very large for a V8.

When I was at the Detroit auto show, they had most of the engines out on display and the difference in size was astonishing.

[Drew Dowdell]

Where does that leave Lucerne?

outselling the Toyota Avalon, Mercury Montego/Sable, and occasionally beating the Chrysler 300?

[CaddyXLR-V]

Not only has the Northstar been significantly reworked for use in RWD cars, but all the cars listed above are no newer than 98. Wouldn't it be entirely possible, that those issues with the Northstar have been corrected in the past 9 years?

Also, the Northstar is significantly larger than the larger displacement 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.3L, and even the 7.0L used in the Z06. Displacement is only bore x stroke x # of cylinders, which only affects the external size of the engine to a limited degree. There are many more factors that affect the external size of the engine, such as the angle between the cylinders, placement of the cams, and just the overall design of the engine.

The 3.8L has no place in todays market, for any car, regardless of target demographic.

Edited August 8, 2007 by CaddyXLR-V

[Flybrian]

Its very easy to percieve that the old 4-speed Hydramatic still shifts more smoothly than a 26-speed Lexus BMX.

And revisiting the Northstar argument for a second...

That is no joke. Those are real actual costs. You think it is funny, it is not. I am telling you I know for a fact they charge more to fix Cadillacs, plus I saw the prices at the dealership myself. My mechanic charges more to fix Cadillacs too.

Your mechanic charges more to fix Cadillacs because a) some parts are indeed more expensive, b) some things are harder to work on, but also c) he may find it profitable bending over Cadillac customers because they own a Cadillac. That's what one local Cadillac dealership likes to do around here; the other doesn't. Guess which one I'd rather take my car to. Actually, neither because the local Saturn dealer still services Oldsmobiles in an honest fashion. Hard to find.

And, yes, I will laugh at some of these prices because its total B.S. As Oldsmoboi said, half of these things you listed having nothing to do with the Northstar nor are they 'Cadillac-exclusive' parts.

A/C Compressor $730

Alternator $735

Brakes $570

Shocks and/or Struts $1,350

I know for a fact all those prices are various levels of bull&#036;h&#33;. $1,350 for shocks? What kind of gold are they plated with? Replacing the front struts, rear air shocks, ride sensor, and compressor can be done with new parts for under $700. That's the entire wearable suspension system. I won't factor in labor because a mechanically-disinclined person can do much of it by themselves very simply.

I don't mean any offense by this, but you do not have first-hand experience with a Northstar or Aurora car; I do. You're culling maintenance horror stories from some owner's site. Of course things look bad that way. And some of these stories are ridiculous. Someone spends $324 on plug wires? That person is an idiot. Someone got taken behind the tool shed by a dealer who chose to conceal the preventative ginger root coolant seal tab and instead charge out the ass for a whole reseal job? That is not a fault with the Northstar. Someone spent $1000 on shocks? Did he not wander aimlessly into a PepBoys at some point and noticed they were about $50 a piece?

The problem is obvious - dealers and mechanics that choose to rape their customers because they own Cadillacs and somehow convince them that its going to cost them alot of money by simple virtue of it being a Cadillac.

So, yes, I do laugh at the apparent stupidity of some people who choose not to spend an hour on the internet doing their own research and instead run to the dealer and then complain after they overspent. I admit, I made that mistake myself. Once. Never again.

I'm aware these engines have some inherent problems as all powerplants regardless of manufacturer do. Early Northstars drip or burn a little oil, the head bolt failure was a problem until ~'96/97, most shops simply cannot work on the car because GM insists on keeping the tooling proprietary, and damaging the oil pan means removing the entire engine or cutting the exhaust crossover with a torch. However, with proper care and a little bit of preventative maintenance backed up by knowledgable forums, these engines car be extrodinarily reliable. Somone on ACNA finally ditched his 1995 Aurora (arguably the worst year for the car in reliability) after 305,000 miles. Many members have between 200-300k on original engines, too, with no major issues.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Not only has the Northstar been significantly reworked for use in RWD cars, but all the cars listed above are no newer than 98. Wouldn't it be entirely possible, that those issues with the Northstar have been corrected in the past 9 years?

Also, the Northstar is significantly larger than the larger displacement 5.7L, 6.0L, 6.3L, and even the 7.0L used in the Z06. Displacement is only bore x stroke x # of cylinders, which only affects the external size of the engine to a limited degree. There are many more factors that affect the external size of the engine, such as the angle between the cylinders, placement of the cams, and just the overall design of the engine.

The 3.8L has no place in todays market, for any car, regardless of target demographic.

Thank you for the explanation. It is appreciated in its approach and presentation. Have the engine issues been fixed? Sadly no. I checked. GM lost another buyer today. I spoke to a man who has a Cadillac with the Northstar V8. He said the whole oil burning issue, and air conditioning issue and the fact he has been back several times has turned him off. He said Toyota will be his next vehicle. I could not say anything to to him. I could not change his mind. His wife drives a Pontiac Montana. That vehicle was worse than the Cadillac. He said the last or best GM car he had was the 1985 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight Royale Brougham coupe. He said Oldsmobile was a real winner, and they put the miles on that car. He said his old boss had a Ninety Eight, and they did business trips in that. He said he loved that car. He said shame about Oldsmobile leaving in 2004. He would have considered them. He was not a fan of the "new" Oldsmobile.

The 3.8 might be old, but at least it is reliable. I think that is why Buick uses it.

[Drew Dowdell]

The 3.8 might be old, but at least it is reliable. I think that is why Buick uses it.

The 3.6 appears to be nearly as bullet proof. Use that instead.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

Its very easy to percieve that the old 4-speed Hydramatic still shifts more smoothly than a 26-speed Lexus BMX.

And revisiting the Northstar argument for a second...

Your mechanic charges more to fix Cadillacs because a) some parts are indeed more expensive, b) some things are harder to work on, but also c) he may find it profitable bending over Cadillac customers because they own a Cadillac. That's what one local Cadillac dealership likes to do around here; the other doesn't. Guess which one I'd rather take my car to. Actually, neither because the local Saturn dealer still services Oldsmobiles in an honest fashion. Hard to find.

And, yes, I will laugh at some of these prices because its total B.S. As Oldsmoboi said, half of these things you listed having nothing to do with the Northstar nor are they 'Cadillac-exclusive' parts.

I know for a fact all those prices are various levels of bull&#036;h&#33;. $1,350 for shocks? What kind of gold are they plated with? Replacing the front struts, rear air shocks, ride sensor, and compressor can be done with new parts for under $700. That's the entire wearable suspension system. I won't factor in labor because a mechanically-disinclined person can do much of it by themselves very simply.

I don't mean any offense by this, but you do not have first-hand experience with a Northstar or Aurora car; I do. You're culling maintenance horror stories from some owner's site. Of course things look bad that way. And some of these stories are ridiculous. Someone spends $324 on plug wires? That person is an idiot. Someone got taken behind the tool shed by a dealer who chose to conceal the preventative ginger root coolant seal tab and instead charge out the ass for a whole reseal job? That is not a fault with the Northstar. Someone spent $1000 on shocks? Did he not wander aimlessly into a PepBoys at some point and noticed they were about $50 a piece?

The problem is obvious - dealers and mechanics that choose to rape their customers because they own Cadillacs and somehow convince them that its going to cost them alot of money by simple virtue of it being a Cadillac.

So, yes, I do laugh at the apparent stupidity of some people who choose not to spend an hour on the internet doing their own research and instead run to the dealer and then complain after they overspent. I admit, I made that mistake myself. Once. Never again.

I'm aware these engines have some inherent problems as all powerplants regardless of manufacturer do. Early Northstars drip or burn a little oil, the head bolt failure was a problem until ~'96/97, most shops simply cannot work on the car because GM insists on keeping the tooling proprietary, and damaging the oil pan means removing the entire engine or cutting the exhaust crossover with a torch. However, with proper care and a little bit of preventative maintenance backed up by knowledgable forums, these engines car be extrodinarily reliable. Somone on ACNA finally ditched his 1995 Aurora (arguably the worst year for the car in reliability) after 305,000 miles. Many members have between 200-300k on original engines, too, with no major issues.

You do not know where I got the info from, so do not assume. That is on you. I know and I did speak to many owners of the cars with that engine. Do not call me a liar. That is how things got out of hand before. I am not your child, and I do not know who you "think" you are talking to. You should respect others. I was not just referring to just my mechanic. You do not know "everything" either. What you said came off as rude. It was offensive to me. Maybe you should work on your approach if you have something to say. And you reasons at to why they charge more are ALL WRONG.

Making assumptions......

You do not know WHAT experience I had have with those cars. Do you live here?

Unless you live around the corner from me, you do not know.

Just so you know, the price for those struts is correct. On my first Ninety Eight, the struts went out. It was over 1100 dollars from the dealer to get new struts. I know because I paid it. I had no choice. I know they cost more on a Cadillac.

I made my point. I cannot dictate what others say or think, but I am leaving this thread alone before I get into an argument with you again over something silly and leave this site. It is simply not worth it. You are entitled to your opinion. That does not make it law or make it right.

Peace to you and your opinions....

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

The 3.6 appears to be nearly as bullet proof. Use that instead.

I have no idea why they do not use it. They must have some reason continue with it. I thought it was being phased out any way.

[Drew Dowdell]

Just so you know, the price for those struts is correct. On my first Ninety Eight, the struts went out. It was over 1100 dollars from the dealer to get new struts. I know because I paid it. I had no choice. I know they cost more on a Cadillac.

The lesson to be learned there is to not go to the dealer for things like that. Struts, brakes, radiators, alternators, even transmissions can all be serviced much cheaper elsewhere.

[Intrepidation]

I have no idea why they do not use it. They must have some reason continue with it. I thought it was being phased out any way.

The lesson to be learned there is to not go to the dealer for things like that. Struts, brakes, radiators, alternators, even transmissions can all be serviced much cheaper elsewhere.

*ding*

We have a winner!

As for the 3800...it should be gone. Those arguing in favor of it only have the arguments of "reliability and well it appeals to traditional Buick buyers"

Buick needs new customers, the "tradional buyer" is getting older, and won't being any new traffic into the showroom. Also, as other have mentioned, the 3.6 seems reliable so far.

3800 w/ 4-speed is all well and dandy...in a base Malibu or something. This is supposed to be a "premium" car, it should have a more "premium" engine. When the Malibu, Aura and others that cost less than the Buick have an engine that makes nearly the power of the NorthStar yet gets better fuel economy...who is the fool for buying the big, slow, expensive car? If Buick wants to be taken seriously, they need to compete seriously. 3.6 w/ 6-speed looks good on paper and performs well in the real world. The 3800 may be "good enough" but it's nothing eye catching...and I could get more power out of a cheaper car. Add to that an interior that's exactly "premium" in many ways, and you've got an outdated piece of machinery that doesn't help Buick at all.

If you want to keep the 3800, fine...make it the base model or something, but the 3.6 should be optional and standard on the CXL.

You could at least bolt a 6-speed to the 3.8...there's no excuse for not having one.

As for the NorthStar, Fly makes very good points, as usual.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Dodgefan

[The O.C.]

outselling the Toyota Avalon, Mercury Montego/Sable, and occasionally beating the Chrysler 300?

Hmmmm.....okay. Let's revisit RETAIL sales......(CYTD through May '07....last figures that I have handy)

300 36,993

Toyota Avalon 34,804

Lucerne 34,012

(Beating Mercury isn't saying much....but Montego/Sable isn't close though)

[The O.C.]

*ding*

We have a winner!

As for the 3800...it should be gone. Those arguing in favor of it only have the arguments of "reliability and well it appeals to traditional Buick buyers"

Buick needs new customers, the "tradional buyer" is getting older, and won't being any new traffic into the showroom. Also, as other have mentioned, the 3.6 seems reliable so far.

3800 w/ 4-speed is all well and dandy...in a base Malibu or something. This is supposed to be a "premium" car, it should have a more "premium" engine. When the Malibu, Aura and others that cost less than the Buick have an engine that makes nearly the power of the NorthStar yet gets better fuel economy...who is the fool for buying the big, slow, expensive car? If Buick wants to be taken seriously, they need to compete seriously. 3.6 w/ 6-speed looks good on paper and performs well in the real world. The 3800 may be "good enough" but it's nothing eye catching...and I could get more power out of a cheaper car. Add to that an interior that's exactly "premium" in many ways, and you've got an outdated piece of machinery that doesn't help Buick at all.

If you want to keep the 3800, fine...make it the base model or something, but the 3.6 should be optional and standard on the CXL.

You could at least bolt a 6-speed to the 3.8...there's no excuse for not having one.

As for the NorthStar, Fly makes very good points, as usual.

I remember test-driving both a LaCrosse CX and a CXS and it was pretty impressive how much smoother and quieter the 3.6L was in the CXS......plus it revved to redline like a premium import V6 when you gunned it.....while the CX just had that typical 3800 grumble and groan (albeit quieted down impressively for what it was) and seemed significantly more sluggish....even at low revs and right off the line......and this is comparing the 3800 to the "lower-powered" 3.6L that only produces 240hp.

Don't even get me started on how much better the chassis/suspension damping felt on the firmer CXS model......

Edited August 9, 2007 by The O.C.

[Drew Dowdell]

Hmmmm.....okay. Let's revisit RETAIL sales......(CYTD through May '07....last figures that I have handy)

300 36,993

Toyota Avalon 34,804

Lucerne 34,012

(Beating Mercury isn't saying much....but Montego/Sable isn't close though)

Oh noooo11!!1!!! I was teh off by 800 units.

There have been more than a few months where Lucerne outsold Avalon.... it is certainly not the dog you were trying to imply.