Lutz Talks Back I - Why don't these concepts go into production?

[Flybrian]

Lutz Talks Back Part I
"Hey Bob...what's up with all the concept cars that never go into production"

In the first of what promises to be several installments where Vice Chairman Bob Lutz talks face-to-face with the camera to respond to some boiling questions about the present and future of GM, its divisions, and individual products, Mr. Lutz answers the perennial question of what the heck is the deal with stunning concepts not being produced? In short summation...

• Velite - 'Prioritized out' as a result of increased spending towards fuel-efficiency and alternative fuel/propulsion
• Bel Air - Not a 'compellingly-beautiful car' to fund.
• Sixteen - No. Period. From a 'public image' and 'sensitivity' standpoint - as well as recent CAFE decisions - a Sixteen would not be a 'prudent' decision.

However, Lutz did offer encouraging words that a luxury flagship is still in the cards, just do away with the expectations of sixteen-cylinder grandeur. In fact, the Chairman himself acknowledged the sub-CTS was a size Cadillac should be looking at.

Finally, Mr. Lutz reinforced the ideal that GM is the one organization that fosters more concepts to production than anyone else in the industry, mentioning the H2, Solstice, SKY, and Centieme as dream cars that became reality.

So, what do you think? Disappointed yet? I know I am, especially for my freshly-snuffed hopes of seeing Velite and Sixteen. Let Mr. Lutz know what you think by leaving a response on his blog here...
Bob Lutz Answers FastLane Questions
...and make sure you mention where you're from...Cheers and Gears!

As mentioned above, this will be one of several video installments released by FastLane. We'll bring you the others in this series as they're released. The second video is slated to be posted in about a week.

[Intrepidation]

Oh he'll get an earful. The crap about the Sixteen is BS. It's an ultra luxury car. It doesn't have to be concerned with CAFE standards, it's buyer sure wouldn't be. You think The A8 W-12 an & series makers and owners give a rat's ass if it gets 4 mpg? Hell no. It would do wonders for their public image anyway.

The Velite...well why would we want that when we've got perfectly mediocre products in Buicks lineup like the LaCrosse and Lucerne...well we've got the Enclave...and that's...it.

Excuses, excuses, that's all it is.

[AxelTheRed]

The Bel Air wasn't a "compellingly beautiful" car to fund? Since when did all of GM's cars become compellingly beautiful? The Velite was prioritized out...what a load. Back in the day Buick got all the great designs, now GM won't even give it a car to help save its stuffy image? And unless they weren't planning on pricing the Sixteen as an ultra-luxury car, I'm going to call bull$h! on the fuel economy remark...and public image? Cadillac was the standard of the world for christ's sake...where's the argument, Lutz?

Edited June 30, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[Cadillacfan]

I hate to say it but I understand completely why these vehicles aren't in GMs near future. It makes so much more sense to go towards fuel efficiency then bling. Pumping serious money into alternative fuels and increasing MPG on your current cars is smart when you're really hurting for a big comeback. Pumping that same money into niche cars that appeal to enthusiasts and can only be purchased by people making more then $150,000 a year is idiotic.

Look at Ford. From the late 90s to just a couple of years ago, they spent billions of dollars creating the niche vehicles (Thunderbird, GT) when they could've spent it on improving their current lineup or adding some more cash to their future high-volume vehicles. We all know the results - Ford made less money on selling the cars then they did making and the money that wasn't spent on their important models led to the current problems Ford is experiencing.

GM is guilty of this, but at least the company is well on its way to fixing those errors like the Chevy SSR. Not the Kappa platform though. It turned out to be far more important to GM's future then previously thought with the Alpha platform being it's offspring.

[Intrepidation]

I hate to say it but I understand completely why these vehicles aren't in GMs near future. It makes so much more sense to go towards fuel efficiency then bling. Pumping serious money into alternative fuels and increasing MPG on your current cars is smart when you're really hurting for a big comeback. Pumping that same money into niche cars that appeal to enthusiasts and can only be purchased by people making more then $150,000 a year is idiotic.

Look at Ford. From the late 90s to just a couple of years ago, they spent billions of dollars creating the niche vehicles (Thunderbird, GT) when they could've spent it on improving their current lineup or adding some more cash to their future high-volume vehicles. We all know the results - Ford made less money on selling the cars then they did making and the money that wasn't spent on their important models led to the current problems Ford is experiencing.

GM is guilty of this, but at least the company is well on its way to fixing those errors like the Chevy SSR. Not the Kappa platform though. It turned out to be far more important to GM's future then previously thought with the Alpha platform being it's offspring.

I see what you're saying, but if you were to price the Sixteen at around the 6 figure mark...that's 5+ small-midsize cars. It's like selling 6 Aveos but getting brand image at the same time. They can make a profit off the Sixteen, a hefty one at that.

[AxelTheRed]

I see what you're saying, but if you were to price the Sixteen at around the 6 figure mark...that's 5+ small-midsize cars. It's like selling 6 Aveos but getting brand image at the same time. They can make a profit off the Sixteen, a hefty one at that.

You're right. My guess is the Sixteen would've been around the $200,000 mark, give or take about fifty grand. No matter how posh they made it, it would've been almost impossible NOT to turn a profit.

[Intrepidation]

You're right. My guess is the Sixteen would've been around the $200,000 mark, give or take about fifty grand. No matter how posh they made it, it would've been almost impossible NOT to turn a profit.

Especially becuase so many people want it...even the Top Gear guys like it.

[Nick]

In fact, the Chairman himself acknowledged the sub-CTS was a size Cadillac should be looking at.

That's just plain stupid. Why the hell would they need something smaller than the CTS? Unless the CTS is now positioned against midsized cars like the 5er and E-class and A6, which as far as I know, it isn't. The STS needs work. Hell, lets not beat around the bush, it needs a redesign. The new refresh is ok, but the interior is still nothing special. Bring over the SLS interior and call it a day. Then the STS is great. Until then, it needs work. Focus on that. The DTS is a good car, but it isn't much in terms of competing against the other full-size luxury makes. Work on a great RWD/AWD platformed full-size luxury sedan that puts all the competition in their places. Focus on that. The Escalade is fine for now. The SRX is good, but the exterior could use some updating with the more current themes. Evolve the XLR. Make it better. Make it better than an SL. Focus on doing that. Make an entry-level coupe to better compete with the 3 and G. Focus on that.

Focus on your core products and make them the best they can be. Raise your image with what you already have. Producing a sub-entry level car instead of directing all that attention towards a greater cause is just stupid. Cadillac is not yet in a place where it can decide to make a car like that (competing against what? A 1-series?). Not now. Put the attention where it is needed most. A good start with the CTS. Now focus on refining the STS. Then Develop a competent RWD full-size vehicle that puts the S-class to shame. Once you got all that going, work on variants, get those V's rolling. That can be worked on parallel to developing a good small (Z4/SLK/3er-sized(at the largest)) coupe/convertible, and then a hardtop convertible to compete against the likes of the SL. The trucks are new enough to be able to withstand some refreshes here and there without full R&D. Don't worry about them so much right now. Same goes for the small cars. A super-luxury vehicle certainly would draw attention to the brand and raise more awareness, but it would be a very expensive project to undertake and it will come in time. If anything, that should come before the small cars.

Cadillac has a good start, but get the core products established as class leading vehicles. Don't just put a little attention here and there and then go towards throwing in other models which will just take away attention from mainstay products and possibly lower brand image in the process.

Cadillac needs to become standard of the world once again. They need exclusivity and superiority before they can even begin to consider backwards thinking of "How can I make the wreath and crest affordable to the masses?" There will be a time and place for that. Until then, you want to become Standard of the World? Take a psychology lesson...a little cognitive therapy could go a long way.

[DenCo]

After watching the video and seeing that the Velite will NOT be happening because they wish to focus on projects such as the Volt, the E-Flex platform as a whole, hybrids and a myriad of other such fields/technologies, I'm understanding but worried at the same time. I'm beginning to wonder if there is much of a future for Buick within GM or if they're going to keep dumping all their proverbil eggs into the Cadillac and Chevrolet baskets. He says that Cadillac will definitely be getting more and Chevrolet has several things on the horizon like the Volt, Camaro, Traverse, and there talk of the NEXT Corvette already while at Buick... well... The Park Ave might be imported in limited nmbers, there might be a smaller (than the LaCrosse) Buick, etc.

I might be overreacting here, but I'm not liking how all wehear is might this, maybe that and nothing seems to really be happening ever since the Enclave has finally made it's appearance into the world. It feels a little too much like Oldsmobile a while back...

[regfootball]

max bob looks tired and puffy

[hyperv6]

When running a corperation and doing product planning you do like you gamble with you head not your heart. [This is coming from a long suffering Browns fan].

The cars he listed were all great but GM has bigger priorities. Caddy still needs to get their hous in order yet and a 16 cylinder car while Toyota is pushing hybrids just really looks bad since GM is still not getting the press on one of theirs and they seam to not get a free pass on the SUV like toyota.

A new vialble VOlt would have a greater impact on GM as a company and I fully agree with Bob.

As for the Bel Air it was toad ugly from the start. I think the other cars they have done since hw has come has shown why it was not built. What would you rather have a Camaro or the Bel Air.

As for the Velite. It is great and good but I was a a Buick dealer and though how bad they need a new car line up and replace the two older cars they have. Buick will move and sell more 4 door sedans than any convertable or coupe. Now once they have new product in place that has revived Buicks base then revisit the Velite.

I think from What Bob has said we should all be glad that they look to have thier priorities in order. Life at a big car comapny is not about just building cool fast cars only it is about bringing affordable profiatable cars to market so they can do the cool fun cars. GM lived on Malibu's, Impala's and the like. Just look at Toyota as they are very profitable and they really do not build anything very cool. They can ands will address the cool cars again but they have been building car that sell in volume and make money like the Camry.

I know what Bob said is not the popular thing but that is part of being in charge.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is no reason the Sixteen skin couldn't be put on a DTS like car. Add a 6speed and appropriate interior <like the SRX and 08 CTS> and watch the people line up.

[ZL-1]

There is no reason the Sixteen skin couldn't be put on a DTS like car. Add a 6speed and appropriate interior <like the SRX and 08 CTS> and watch the people line up.

That would make a nice car above the CTS

[Gizhost]

I never expected any of those vehicles to go to production besides the Velite...but at the same time the Velite concept has aged, GM needed to get the vehicle to the market sooner than later...I still hope whatever vehicle replaces the LaCrosse is based on the Velite, but I don't really care that the Velite isn't making it to production. It is better to have a vehicle that can draw from these vehicles and improve sales in large quantities rather than the actual concept vehicle becoming a brands halo vehicle and improve sales in small quantities...look at the Ford GT, that may be a little extreme of an example given the price and problems but its still a good representation of how not to execute a halo vehicle.

Edited June 30, 2007 by Gizhost

[Sixty8panther]

Sixteen - No. Period. From a 'public image' and 'sensitivity' standpoint - as well as recent CAFE decisions - a Sixteen would not be a 'prudent' decision.

Yeah.... and THAT's why GM will remain stuck in semi-mediocrity.

No one has a pair of ballls anymore. If Bugatti can have a W16

and Maybach can make a giant twin-turbo V12 than WTF is a

production SIXTEEN so unreasonable???

This puts me in a foul mood. It's 100% Bullsh!t.

[Sixty8panther]

You're right. My guess is the Sixteen would've been around the $200,000 mark, give or take about fifty grand. No matter how posh they made it, it would've been almost impossible NOT to turn a profit.

Dude, even if they cost $500,000 it would sell.

Every Rap Star, Japanese Billionare, Shiek, Wall Street Mogul,

.com-er & millionare Football/Basketball player would buy one!

[A Horse With No Name]

That would make a nice car above the CTS

Hell yes!!!!

Chris

[Newbiewar]

Dude, even if they cost $500,000 it would sell.

Every Rap Star, Japanese Billionare, Shiek, Wall Street Mogul,

.com-er & millionare Football/Basketball player would buy one!

wooo.... perhaps you guys dont remember, that when the concept debued GM said if produced it would be the worlds most expensive vehicle... costing a little over 2 million per unit...

[Northstar]

Oh he'll get an earful. The crap about the Sixteen is BS. It's an ultra luxury car. It doesn't have to be concerned with CAFE standards, it's buyer sure wouldn't be. You think The A8 W-12 an & series makers and owners give a rat's ass if it gets 4 mpg? Hell no. It would do wonders for their public image anyway.

The Velite...well why would we want that when we've got perfectly mediocre products in Buicks lineup like the LaCrosse and Lucerne...well we've got the Enclave...and that's...it.

Excuses, excuses, that's all it is.

No, the owners wouldn't care. However, Cadillac's image is not good enough to sell a $300k car. It can't sell $70k STS-Vs, $80k XLRs, or $100k XLR-Vs. You want them to start selling a $300k car when they can't sell exa car priced at 1/4 of that?

You statement about the Velite is exactly the thinking that got GM in trouble. "Oh, this car is really cool, but the rest of our lineup is not very good, so let's make it and then we can have 1 good car that won't sell in high volume." GM is doing what it should do now: Before spending a large amount of money on a vehicle that is not going to sell in very big numbers, why not fix your bread and butter cars first? I'd rather see a great LaCrosse and Lucerne and no Velite than a mediocre LaX and Lucerne and a Velite. The first possibility makes a Velite-like vehicle more possible down the line. The second (yours) makes a dead Buick more possible down the line... and no Buick means no Velite.

Decisions that make business since is what it is. GM doesn't have the money to make all these expensive cars that won't sell in any volume. Chrysler didn't build the Firepower or ME412. Are those examples of excuses? No, those are also smart decisions because Chrysler doesn't have the money to build them either.

The Bel Air wasn't a "compellingly beautiful" car to fund? Since when did all of GM's cars become compellingly beautiful? The Velite was prioritized out...what a load. Back in the day Buick got all the great designs, now GM won't even give it a car to help save its stuffy image? And unless they weren't planning on pricing the Sixteen as an ultra-luxury car, I'm going to call bull&#036;h&#33; on the fuel economy remark...and public image? Cadillac was the standard of the world for christ's sake...where's the argument, Lutz?

The Bel Air was really boring, nothing special about it at all. As I said above, I'd rather see Buick get it's bread and butter stuff right before it starts making a low volume car. If the bread and butter vehicles don't sell because their funding went to building a halo, that halo won't be around long anyways, because the brand won't be around long.

I see what you're saying, but if you were to price the Sixteen at around the 6 figure mark...that's 5+ small-midsize cars. It's like selling 6 Aveos but getting brand image at the same time. They can make a profit off the Sixteen, a hefty one at that.

They would have to sell a good number of Sixteens to make a profit. Do you know how much R&D goes into an ultra-luxury vehicle? If it was made as exquisite as the concept, GM would have to sell it at about $500k for a profit to be made, I think. Last I checked, Rolls Royces were $350k. Which one do you think buyers are going to pick? Not the Sixteen.

You're right. My guess is the Sixteen would've been around the $200,000 mark, give or take about fifty grand. No matter how posh they made it, it would've been almost impossible NOT to turn a profit.

Not unless they set the sales charts on fire with it. It costs a ton of money to develop a vehicle like that and it's not cheap to produce either.

Dude, even if they cost $500,000 it would sell.

Every Rap Star, Japanese Billionare, Shiek, Wall Street Mogul,

.com-er & millionare Football/Basketball player would buy one!

No it wouldn't. The Phantom is only $350k. They'd rather "rollin' in a Rolls" than in a Cadillac.

wooo.... perhaps you guys dont remember, that when the concept debued GM said if produced it would be the worlds most expensive vehicle... costing a little over 2 million per unit...

No, the concept itself cost $2 million because it was a one-off. Even still, it would be really expensive, I think. More than the Phantom.

[Northstar]

That's just plain stupid. Why the hell would they need something smaller than the CTS? Unless the CTS is now positioned against midsized cars like the 5er and E-class and A6, which as far as I know, it isn't. The STS needs work. Hell, lets not beat around the bush, it needs a redesign. The new refresh is ok, but the interior is still nothing special. Bring over the SLS interior and call it a day. Then the STS is great. Until then, it needs work. Focus on that. The DTS is a good car, but it isn't much in terms of competing against the other full-size luxury makes. Work on a great RWD/AWD platformed full-size luxury sedan that puts all the competition in their places. Focus on that. The Escalade is fine for now. The SRX is good, but the exterior could use some updating with the more current themes. Evolve the XLR. Make it better. Make it better than an SL. Focus on doing that. Make an entry-level coupe to better compete with the 3 and G. Focus on that.

Focus on your core products and make them the best they can be. Raise your image with what you already have. Producing a sub-entry level car instead of directing all that attention towards a greater cause is just stupid. Cadillac is not yet in a place where it can decide to make a car like that (competing against what? A 1-series?). Not now. Put the attention where it is needed most. A good start with the CTS. Now focus on refining the STS. Then Develop a competent RWD full-size vehicle that puts the S-class to shame. Once you got all that going, work on variants, get those V's rolling. That can be worked on parallel to developing a good small (Z4/SLK/3er-sized(at the largest)) coupe/convertible, and then a hardtop convertible to compete against the likes of the SL. The trucks are new enough to be able to withstand some refreshes here and there without full R&D. Don't worry about them so much right now. Same goes for the small cars. A super-luxury vehicle certainly would draw attention to the brand and raise more awareness, but it would be a very expensive project to undertake and it will come in time. If anything, that should come before the small cars.

Cadillac has a good start, but get the core products established as class leading vehicles. Don't just put a little attention here and there and then go towards throwing in other models which will just take away attention from mainstay products and possibly lower brand image in the process.

Cadillac needs to become standard of the world once again. They need exclusivity and superiority before they can even begin to consider backwards thinking of "How can I make the wreath and crest affordable to the masses?" There will be a time and place for that. Until then, you want to become Standard of the World? Take a psychology lesson...a little cognitive therapy could go a long way.

The sub-CTS car will be a 3-Series competitor and the CTS will move up to the 5-Series class (as evidenced by the new one... I'd say the interior is very competitive for that class). The DTS/STS will be made into one model and compete against the 7-Series. Cadillac is in transition right now and that's why this idea seems sort of odd. The CTS currently competes with the 3-Series in price, so something under it suggests a $25k car; however, by the time that car is out (2011?) the CTS will have moved up a notch and the next one (around 2013?) will move into the 5er territory for good. I think there will be about 2 years where the BLS(?) and CTS cannibalize each other, but after that I think there will be a clear division.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The sub-CTS car will be a 3-Series competitor and the CTS will move up to the 5-Series class (as evidenced by the new one... I'd say the interior is very competitive for that class). The DTS/STS will be made into one model and compete against the 7-Series. Cadillac is in transition right now and that's why this idea seems sort of odd. The CTS currently competes with the 3-Series in price, so something under it suggests a $25k car; however, by the time that car is out (2011?) the CTS will have moved up a notch and the next one (around 2013?) will move into the 5er territory for good. I think there will be about 2 years where the BLS(?) and CTS cannibalize each other, but after that I think there will be a clear division.

That's exactly what Cadillac should be doing. Hopefully the sub-CTS will be on Alpha.

[CaddyXLR-V]

And really, to all the people saying the Sixteen(which I don't like very much anyway), Velite, and Bel Air(which would be a flop) need to be built, can you afford a $300,000+, and $40,000(Velite would be Buicks Thunderbird) cars? Forget the Bel Air, it could be $15,000 and it wouldn't sell. Or would it make more sense to fast track the Volt, which I could see selling 100,000+ of per year, or using the funds on cars that need it, like the Malibu, Impala, Astra, Cobalt? These are the cars that bring in revenue, which is where the money comes from to fund everything GM does.

Or would you like the headlines to be, GM is down 35% for sales this year, but at least they sold 200 Sixteens.

[Drew Dowdell]

if none of the concepts ever have a chance to be built in production.... then DON"T waste the money teasing us with the concepts. Put that 2 million into Delta or small trucks, or even to have the $1 worth more leather on the Lucerne so that all seating surfaces are leather covered.

Put that $2m into increasing capacity at the 6-speed or HF engine plants

Put $2m into advertising.

Just don't waste $2m building a concept for a car you won't build to show to people who couldn't buy it even if you built it.

There is no reason the skin of the Sixteen couldn't have gone on Sigma... or Zeta

Edited June 30, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[Intrepidation]

Here's my question...supposedly they are wanting to build a Caddy halo car that has 12 cylinders...made by bolting 2 V6's together...how much harder would it be to bolt 2 V8's together?

If nothing else, the next STS should be as bold and elegant as the Sixteen...

[AxelTheRed]

how much harder would it be to bolt 2 V8's together?

It really wouldn't be that hard, Lutz's excuse was just a cop out. The truth is that GM doesn't have the guts to do it.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It really wouldn't be that hard, Lutz's excuse was just a cop out. The truth is that GM doesn't have the money to do it.

Fixed

[Intrepidation]

Fixed

SO they've got the money to merge 2 V6's...but add those extra cylinders and OMGXORZ IT'S TOO COMPLICATED AND EXPESNIVE.

[emh]

I see what you're saying, but if you were to price the Sixteen at around the 6 figure mark...that's 5+ small-midsize cars. It's like selling 6 Aveos but getting brand image at the same time. They can make a profit off the Sixteen, a hefty one at that.

The price of the cars isn't the important thing given GM's financial situation, the profit from the car is. VW is said to lose millions on every Veyron the sell, with a $1.5million price tag! GM can't afford that.

I agree with the thinking that the mainstream products need to be the focus at GM for now, including getting a competitive full line of vehicles at Cadillac. New CTS looks good. Escalade is fine. STS is a lame duck, DTS is way overdue for a replacement, SRX isn't selling well enough, XLR, while nice, is getting close to needing a redesign and sales are very low. That's a lot of things to be fixed (I know some fixes are already in the pipe, but not all) before Cadillac spends resources on an over-the-top $200k+ halo car like the Sixteen. A $90k-$100k car competitive with the S-class, 7-series etc. should also come first.

Edited June 30, 2007 by emh

[Northstar]

if none of the concepts ever have a chance to be built in production.... then DON"T waste the money teasing us with the concepts. Put that 2 million into Delta or small trucks, or even to have the $1 worth more leather on the Lucerne so that all seating surfaces are leather covered.

Put that $2m into increasing capacity at the 6-speed or HF engine plants

Put $2m into advertising.

Just don't waste $2m building a concept for a car you won't build to show to people who couldn't buy it even if you built it.

There is no reason the skin of the Sixteen couldn't have gone on Sigma... or Zeta

You really think GM is worried about a few million on concepts? The $5 million GM probably spends on concepts each year is nothing compared to what they spend on other projects. $2 million into a project being worked on is pocket change when those projects run up $500 million in R&D anyways. Another $2 million is nothing and wouldn't make any product significantly better. They also put lots of money into the engine/transmission plants. Again, $2 million is not going to prevent them from making it have more capacity. If they want X number of transmissions to be produced, they're going to spend the amount of money it takes to make the plant capable of doing so. They don't say, "oh, we need $250 million but we can only use $248 million because we spent $2 million on that concept."

As Lutz said, GM has actually made quite a few concepts.

Why build concepts? Well, they get you lots of feedback on what people want to see in the future. Auto shows are like huge focus groups, GM gets tons of feedback on what people like and what they don't like. I don't know the costs involved in focus groups and what the average amount of money GM spends on focus groups for a vehicle is, but I'd say $1 million on a concept isn't too big of a price to pay when you probably have 10 million people give you feedback on it (or $.10 per person, which I'm sure is less per person than a focus group).

Here's my question...supposedly they are wanting to build a Caddy halo car that has 12 cylinders...made by bolting 2 V6's together...how much harder would it be to bolt 2 V8's together?

If nothing else, the next STS should be as bold and elegant as the Sixteen...

It's not going to be as simple as connecting 2 V6s. Even if that's the basis, they aren't going to put them together and call it a day, obviously. There's going to be a lot of new stuff developed for the V12 (if it happens) and they're going to have to do a lot of testing. The same goes for a V16. It's not as though the Sixteen's engine was tested and such and ready to go. Yes, it worked, but notice that they never let anyone see what it could really do, and it was never tested. I bet the most amount of power it has ever had to exert is about 250HP. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but again, it's not as easy as you make it sound. It would take a ton of work and testing to make it so that it was reliable and didn't have all sorts of problems.

The other problem with making the V16 is the cost. If you bolt 2 LS7s together and have to do some more modifying, you're looking at a $40-50k engine. I realize it's going into a very expensive car, but in your previous post you said "if they price it at around the 6 figure mark... they can make a hefty profit." Well, when the engine is going to cost $40k, and the transmission isn't even accounted for in that, you've only got $60k to work with before you run into your for sale price (if you meant $100k). Then you'll want it to have all the bells and whistles (NAV, big sunroof, massaging seats, leather lined throughout, $8k worth of rims and tires, heated and cooled seats throughout, reclining rear seats, infotainment center, etc etc etc and you haven't even begun to account for anything other than the "wow" features or the huge R&D costs). If the XLR-V has a price tag of $100k, GM would command at least $300k for the Sixteen, and people aren't going to pay for that when you have the Phantom for not much more.

Obviously, they know a whole hell of a lot more about the costs involved in producing such a vehicle than you (or me, or anyone here) and if they were going to make a "hefty" profit, they'd be green-lighting it.

It really wouldn't be that hard, Lutz's excuse was just a cop out. The truth is that GM doesn't have the guts to do it.

Oh please... it wouldn't be that hard? Think again...

For everyone thinking the Sixteen is so doable, consider what you're asking GM to do:

In order for you to get your 1000HP, you're going to have to put two LS7s together. LS7s cost $15k as a crate engine, which doesn't include the exhaust system or some of the other things such as the dry sump system. I'm guessing those push it to about $20k/engine. But you don't want just one of them, you want two. Price per engine: $40k.

Now for your heavy-duty transmission. GM usually charges about a $1k premium for an automatic in such things as the HD trucks and in the CTS. That's in addition to the cost of the manual, and this transmission would be one-of-a-kind so I'm going to say it would need to cost $7.5k/tranny. Current price of your vehicle (which does not include anything besides an engine and tranny: $47.5k).

Now, we're going to need a premium and very expensive suspension to put this vehicle on. I don't have a clue what that's going to cost per vehicle. I'll go with $10k, which I'm guessing is a bit on the cheap side. Current price of vehicle: $57.5k.

Since this vehicle is the standard of the world, we're going to need the best sheetmetal available. Aluminum sounds good enough, what does that cost? It's not going to be cheap...

Now to actually make that expensive suspension driveable, we're going to need some nice wheels and tires. Big ones, too. The rear tires have to be able to put 1000HP down to the ground. We're probably looking at $8k worth of wheels and tires. Current price: $65.5k, and without an interior.

I could go on, but I have no idea what interior materials cost and I think I've made my point. And remember, you haven't figured out how you're going to build this vehicle either. Are you going to build a new facility to build it at, or hire a coachbuilder? Do you have $500 million to spend on R&D to make this vehicle absolutely perfect which it must be if it is going to be the Standard of the World? That doesn't include any of the cost of producing the vehicle or buying all the parts and materials for it, though. Good luck selling them at the price you're going to have to charge, too.

So, who thinks the Sixteen is still a reasonable project to undertake, and who still thinks GM can make a profit.

[Northstar]

SO they've got the money to merge 2 V6's...but add those extra cylinders and OMGXORZ IT'S TOO COMPLICATED AND EXPESNIVE.

Oh please... the cost of producing the Sixteen is a lot more than the cost to put 2 V8s together.

The price of the cars isn't the important thing given GM's financial situation, the profit from the car is. VW is said to lose millions on every Veyron the sell, with a $1.5million price tag! GM can't afford that.

I agree with the thinking that the mainstream products need to be the focus at GM for now, including getting a competitive full line of vehicles at Cadillac. New CTS looks good. Escalade is fine. STS is a lame duck, DTS is way overdue for a replacement, SRX isn't selling well enough, XLR, while nice, is getting close to needing a redesign and sales are very low. That's a lot of things to be fixed (I know some fixes are already in the pipe, but not all) before Cadillac spends resources on an over-the-top $200k+ halo car like the Sixteen. A $90k-$100k car competitive with the S-class, 7-series etc. should also come first.

Finally someone with some sense in this topic.

[AxelTheRed]

Fixed

No doubt money was an issue concerning the Sixteen, but I'd bet that gutlessness had a lot to do with it too.

[caddycruiser]

All sounds very normal to me. Though a lot of us would still love to see a Sixteen and a Velite to really further energize Buick and Cadillac, at this point, it's all about re-focusing as much as possible to efficiency coupled with passionate cars--not just overt luxury and style, and typical efficiency.

So, it was only to be expected that priorities would go else where--they had to.

Oh, and I am SO GLAD to hear it come from a "big" mouth within GM that the lowly Bel Air concept, well, thing, isn't in the cards. Not only would it be a waste of resources right now and probably not ever do well as far as sales, but it just did NOT have the looks or any passion to do much. I've seen it in person twice, and in tons of pictures, and it always just seemed like a drab, flat box turned into a convertible and given a bad nose job.

^^That was the positive news part for me.

Otherwise, just be realistic. GM is a company, like any other, and when it comes to what gets developed and what doesn't, funds HAVE to be spread out to the areas that are of utmost importance, leaving pipe dreams either on the back burner or canceled. Just how it works.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

1) BEL AIR: Who cares, the Bel Air sucked anyway.

2) VELITE: Never was a huge fan of the Velite, so no harm done there. Buick DOES need more and better products though, which we KNOW they will get since GM recently said it would be expanding the division.

3) SIXTEEN: On the business side of things this is a smart move. On the passion side of things, this is absolute bull&#036;h&#33;. F*ck the greenies and the media (which we all know the sixteen would be played up and spun into the new Cadillac or GM "stigma") But honestly; I think GM had no plans to produce the Sixteen in the first place _AND_ the new CAFE requirements will be the death of the project. (Thank you congress for limiting our choices by screwing detroit out of sales and $$$)

Cadillac really does need to focus on it's current line up before it tries to challenge the likes of Bentley and RR though. I mean, the STS, SRX, XLR and DTS pretty much all need to be redesigned to be more competitive.

I think Lutz is talking about the Alpha Cadillac which will be smaller than the CTS. Is it good for Caddy? Maybe, maybe not but it is good for GM and their CAFE numbers if it sells well.

It seems that Cadillac had the magic a few years ago... But with the slow down of new products, HORRIBLE marketing and infusion of "old fart styling" from Lutz, sadly I think they might've lost their momentum.

Cadillac, in it's glory days, was all about balls and being the best. Whereas now Cadillac seems to be suffering the "We're afraid to take a risk because everyone hates us" GM mantra of the 90s and present day.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The other side of this is: what if the C7 program actually will have a mid engined sibling that could come in the form of Cien?

Maybe that would be easier to do and maybe that's why we're not getting the Sixteen.

[jbartley]

the Bel-Air was ugly. period.

Velite? All that is important is Buick get a large sedan (rwd) and that the STYLING of the Velite now lives on in the Enclave, Lucerne, and future buicks. Thank god for the velite, it gave us Buick's new look.

Lutz has said a couple of times a CIEN is much more realistic than a Sixteen. It'll be much cheaper to build, and even cheaper if there is a mid-engined C7 as well. It's in the cards.

Just because Lutz said "no sixteen" doesn't mean there won't be a new 70k-ish cadillac super-sedan. don't read to far into it.

Edited July 1, 2007 by jbartley

[CaddyXLR-V]

SO they've got the money to merge 2 V6's...but add those extra cylinders and OMGXORZ IT'S TOO COMPLICATED AND EXPESNIVE.

One would be a core product for Cadillac, going in the car replacing the DTS.

A v12 could be used in the Escalade and EXT to spread the costs. The v16, will not fit in anything but a Sixteen. To have a v16 ultra luxury car, when the rest of your cars are struggling to compete against their class, does not make sense.

[turbo200]

here's my response to him. as usual it's lengthy [i wonder if they'll cut it?]

Mr. Lutz, the usage of GMblogs, Youtube, and internet as your tool for communicating with consumers/fans...goes beyond the call of what is required of you. My respect and admiration for your work has always been there, though I don't know the exact truth, messages like this and your personal PR, the media at large, give me hints into your persona.

I do, however, have to take issue with some of your reasoning for GM's failure to release certain concepts. As you are surely accustomed to, there are "buts" and opinions all over, and I am certain the fruit of your labor is when people get behind what you say.

I fully get behind your remarkable transformation of the corporation. Certainly, what you must have found was in dire straits and a pit for prosperity.

Here is my not too far-fetched opinion with regards to Velite. First of all, it is one of the most awesome concepts your company or any company has ever produced, in terms of raw production value. I think Zeta could and should have happened long ago. I think your team and possibly your ideas weren't given enough credit and support by the powers that be, the board. This is why the global consolidation didn't happen until after GTO had originally been released here, and until long after your tenure with GM had begun. I think the company was a distinct mess, and the approval process must have been like spider webs crossed all over the place.

For you to say Velite has been reprioritized because of CAFE rules sure could be plausible in the last six months or so, but Velite has been around as a concept since before 2004 when it debuted. The idea was there with the original Zeta plans which were planned for debut soon after the VE, or more like this year than the two more years we are having to wait for these cars; so I just don't buy that it has been a victim of CAFE rulings.

What I am saying is that a lot of the product we have been waiting for and continue to wait for, and some that we will now seemingly never get, has been caused by the hesitation of the board of directors to give you the full power you needed to excersize the right products into development, using the right resources and engineer teams.

Let me reiterate that what you have done for design alone at this company will instill a credibility that will far-reaching implications and may finally turn the company into a well-respected well-rounded company. But it's losing product like the Velite that has me concerned if the reaction from your company is coming soon enough. It's the delays we are facing that has me worried if some of these brands will ever truly make it out of the shadows, meanwhile the competition is really now starting to draw firm lines in the sand of where they stand. Look at Acura and there progress, BMW, G37 coupe, 3-series coupe/cabrio, MB CL class, Honda Civic....where do I see cars of this caliber from GM? Oh right, they're just around the corner, just as they've always been for the last few decades. I understand class competitive product in the form of Aura, Lambdas, Silverado have just been released, but my first instinct is to really look deep into the desirability of those products, which brings up plenty of questions. Why is Aura interior material quality still supbar? on every other front it can stand toe to toe with competitors, but why leave one of the most important aspects as a drawback, as a potential disillusionment for prospective customers? Why are the Lambdas the same basic vehicles except for slight variations in style, which I might add the level of differentiation is stellar compared to what was at GM before. But why are we left with three basic vehicles that are basically the same two box, traditional SUV design? Couldn't something more daring like the contemporary elegant Centieme be released for Buick, reestablishing it as a luxo marque with high style intentions? OR what about the Graphyte concept for GMC, the techno butch truck that came out of nowhere, and was a complete departure for GM. Many will argue Lambda is already a huge success, but what about being bold and innovative rather than always the same traditional outlook. Perhaps then you would appeal to customers on the coasts that don't traditionally shop GM, with different cars, that have a different approach to the market. Finally, Silverado is likeable, but the design depth could have also been extrapolated.

Which gets to the bottom line for my point. We are faced with waiting so long for product and promise that your team has worked on for so long, yet there is constant talk of delay and uncertainty, and no product in sight. when it finally reaches us it's often met with a collective snore because the market has moved on. Crossovers are the big thing, and you've finally reacted with Lambda, but now the crossover market is moving towards more cutting edge shapes like Murano and FX, and many of your own concepts.

So back to my original point about the concepts. You talked about GM being the most successful at translating concepts to production. I also have to disagree with this point, simply because GM has arguably been the most successful company at reaching audiences with concept designs in this decade, possibly ever. You have had more good concept introductions than I can count or remember, and I'm not talking about mediocre design like the Bel Air, but incredible designs like Cien, Sixteen, Solstice, Velite, Centieme, Lightning, Riviera, Graphyte,....the list goes on and on and on. What I am saying is while you have had many great concept- to-production releases, you've also had many many more concepts that have been great, that we are still waiting for. So as a ratio of concept-to-production, I might check with your research team before making so bold a claim as to say GM is the most successful at it.

I also have a problem with your comments on Sixteen simply because the outcry has not been for the sixteen cylinder engine but for the design itself. You know better than anyone Sixteen would be a fabulous S-class competitor, one that Cadillac sorely needs and is getting an image beating for not having one. Sixteen has the level of panache and regality to compete with the current S-class, CLS, A8. The problem is the car should be out now! GM's problem is they are always always behind the curve. They step to the side, then step back, then step to the side again, meanwhile the competition copied what made the design so successful in the first place, and beat GM to the punch by three years.

I know this is long, and I have more to say. I wish nothing but the best for the company as I'm sure most do here. You are the leader and have to decide what we get along with put up with criticism when we judge you fall short, which is not ever easy to deal with. Trust me when I say no one with a right mind and familiarity with the situation at GM would be rightfully able to judge you as falling short.

[turbo200]

if none of the concepts ever have a chance to be built in production.... then DON"T waste the money teasing us with the concepts. Put that 2 million into Delta or small trucks, or even to have the $1 worth more leather on the Lucerne so that all seating surfaces are leather covered.

Put that $2m into increasing capacity at the 6-speed or HF engine plants

Put $2m into advertising.

Just don't waste $2m building a concept for a car you won't build to show to people who couldn't buy it even if you built it.

There is no reason the skin of the Sixteen couldn't have gone on Sigma... or Zeta

Amen brotha. My point is stop teasing the fans with a level of execution on concepts if it is never going to see the light of day on the product. It hurts us more to see what GM could do if they just focused and spent the money where it counts, then to just go without the concepts. Truly, I'd rather there have never been a Velite concept released if it was just to play with the fans' emotions. I'd rather see those two designers fired or working on something viable. Save the money and get us some damn product worth mentioning in the same breath as cars the competitors are building.

[turbo200]

No, the owners wouldn't care. However, Cadillac's image is not good enough to sell a $300k car. It can't sell $70k STS-Vs, $80k XLRs, or $100k XLR-Vs. You want them to start selling a $300k car when they can't sell exa car priced at 1/4 of that?

You statement about the Velite is exactly the thinking that got GM in trouble. "Oh, this car is really cool, but the rest of our lineup is not very good, so let's make it and then we can have 1 good car that won't sell in high volume." GM is doing what it should do now: Before spending a large amount of money on a vehicle that is not going to sell in very big numbers, why not fix your bread and butter cars first? I'd rather see a great LaCrosse and Lucerne and no Velite than a mediocre LaX and Lucerne and a Velite. The first possibility makes a Velite-like vehicle more possible down the line. The second (yours) makes a dead Buick more possible down the line... and no Buick means no Velite.

If the Lucerne is already being built on Zeta, and you have a Camaro on Zeta, how much more money would it cost to give Camaro completely different sheetmetal a la Lambda vehicles and give it some different engineering for a truly distinct ride and handling feeling? What is the point of platform consolidations if we are not going to get the most vehicles possible off of it. Why can VW do it across, what eight brands [skoda, Bentley, VW, Audi, Seat, Lamborghini, and now Porsche, any more?] with less volume, less revenue, with so much success? Why? Why is it so hard for GM to get thier platforms straight and just release some damn good cars for its brands.

[balthazar]

>>"...made by bolting 2 V6's together...how much harder would it be to bolt 2 V8's together?"<<

It goes without saying that this is a grotesque & figurative oversimplification, right?

>>"...you're going to have to put two LS7s together. LS7s cost $15k as a crate engine, which doesn't include the exhaust system or some of the other things such as the dry sump system. I'm guessing those push it to about $20k/engine. But you don't want just one of them, you want two. Price per engine: $40k."<<

IF 2 LS7s cost GM $40K, then a V-16 would cost far more.

[Northstar]

If the Lucerne is already being built on Zeta, and you have a Camaro on Zeta, how much more money would it cost to give Camaro completely different sheetmetal a la Lambda vehicles and give it some different engineering for a truly distinct ride and handling feeling? What is the point of platform consolidations if we are not going to get the most vehicles possible off of it. Why can VW do it across, what eight brands [skoda, Bentley, VW, Audi, Seat, Lamborghini, and now Porsche, any more?] with less volume, less revenue, with so much success? Why? Why is it so hard for GM to get thier platforms straight and just release some damn good cars for its brands.

Apparently it is expensive enough that it doesn't make business sense to do. I wouldn't think it would cost all that much, but the Lambda comparison is not that similar. First and foremost, the Lambdas are much higher volume than the Velite, and more similar as well. The Enclave is very different, but the other two are the same A-pillar back and all seem to have nearly identical suspension tuning and such. The Velite and Camaro would be different in that sense. Also, they all share everything on the interior besides the door panels and dash. Same seats, storage bins, etc. I'd say the Acadia and Outlook are 99% the same not counting the front end, dash, and door panels. Velite and Camaro would probably not share anything you can see, and that is much more expensive and again, it is at a very low volume.

[hyperv6]

Caddy is in the process of revamping their line up. While good they will make them better as the the CTS has shown.

It is just not the right time for a $150,000-200,000 Caddy right now as that develoment money can go a long way in the otrher lines on cars they will make more money on. There is the fun thing to do and the right thing to do and not building a 16 cylinder sedan is it.

Now no onw sid the styling would be tossed and that it could be set on a new DTS with a V8 that sells for $50K. I wouls much rather see a shorter hood and the same styling on a car that thousands could buy vs a car where only a few hundred could buy.

Lets face it Maybach is not setting the world on fire.

Edited July 4, 2007 by hyperv6

[cire]

I agree with Mr. Lutz when he states that Cadillac needs a sedan below the 2008 CTS. That car definitely does not need to be the current front drive BLS sold in Europe (As far as I know, GM has not decided to bring it to the U.S., Whew!). Cadillac needs a quality rear drive compact sedan in the United States that could compete against the 3 Series and C Class from its competitors (From what I understand, Cadillac is hoping to have the CTS compete against the 5 Series and the E Class).

I also believe Cadillac needs a proper flagship sedan to compete against the 7 Series and S Class. The current STS and DTS are not the right products to accomplish this task. Cadillac needs to pull their resources together and delete the two vehicles (STS and DTS) to come up with a proper flagship sedan. If Cadillac is not going to put the Sixteen into production, at least offer a full size flagship sedan with some of the Sixteen's styling cues (they could still use one of the former monikers for marketing recognition - STS or DTS, but not both).

As far as the Velite, Buick needs some help. The only true competitive product they have right now is the Enclave. The brand is going to shrivel on the vine if they do not get some competitive products soon. Bring over the Chinese version of the Park Avenue (I would still change the Impala-esque tail lamps). Redesign the LaCrosse (and change the name). Drop the aging and antiquated 4 speed transmissions and old engine technology (I thing the Lucerne is good looking, but is saddled with antiquated engines/transmissions and a meaningless name). But DO SOMETHING (except bring over the upcoming Delta II Skylark - I still think that would be a mistake)!

As far as the Bel Air, I was never a big fan of this design (the retro elements seem odd and out of place somehow). I think Chevrolet should focus on successfully launching the 2008 Malibu, bringing the Camaro to market, properly developing the Volt, creating a more desirable design for a future Cobalt (and changing the name - how boring), and switching the Impala to the rear drive Zeta platform with a beautiful design.

GM also needs to focus on new engine technology to help it meet or exceed future government regulatory requirements.

Edited July 2, 2007 by cire

[z28luvr01]

All in all, I guess I can't be too upset over this. GM's top priority now is obviously meeting the new MPG standards and lessening our dependence on Big Oil. They are not going to be able to do that by throwing money at any of these, which obviously aren't meant to be fuel-sippers. They are not going to get caught with their pants down like they did in the 1970s. Of the three mentioned, I'd like to have seen the Bel Air (or a version of it) make production. Say what you want about the styling (I liked it), but I liked the idea of what the car could have been - a cheap, decent (but not great) handling, easily modifiable RWD car much like the original Bel Air. The Sixteen and Velite will likely be forever out of my price range.

[VenSeattle]

Hmmm... All I read is that a vehicle and funds earmarked for a Buick vehicle were diverted to other non-Buick related programs.

What happened to Buick's $3-Billion dollar promise... oh, how long ago was it... 3+ years ago????

.

[ToniCipriani]

if none of the concepts ever have a chance to be built in production.... then DON"T waste the money teasing us with the concepts. Put that 2 million into Delta or small trucks, or even to have the $1 worth more leather on the Lucerne so that all seating surfaces are leather covered.

Put that $2m into increasing capacity at the 6-speed or HF engine plants

Put $2m into advertising.

Just don't waste $2m building a concept for a car you won't build to show to people who couldn't buy it even if you built it.

There is no reason the skin of the Sixteen couldn't have gone on Sigma... or Zeta

Concept cars are essentially advertising. They build brand image.

[hyperv6]

To anyone who thinks building the Sixteen will save Cadlillac your thinking much too short sighted.

GM is much better off adding they many things from the Sixteens styling to the entire line than wasting it all on one car that will never turn a profit.

The Sixteen was never promised as a prodution car and Cadillac needs to address it's core market and redeem the whole division vs building a car in a so very low volume market.

A new DTS RWD looking like a Sixteen with a shorter hood offered in V6, V8 and if it was not too expensive and used somewhere else a V12. That would be money better spent vs reproducing a car few will ever see in person outside a car show let alone buy.

As for the V12 I could do with out it. GM would be better off making the best performing and economical V6 and V8 engines on the market.

It is not about Cylinder count but being the best in class and best in market. You do that and you will sell cars. Few could care about 16 cylinders 1,000 HP in a luxury sedan. Give the public 700 HP in the smoothest best all around performing engine in the best quality sedan and they will buy it in the thousdands vs 100.

Once the division is turned around and has topped Mecedes, BMW and Lexus then let them play with 16 cylinder mega buck sedans. Ypu have to do your homework before you can play.

[Northstar]

Hmmm... All I read is that a vehicle and funds earmarked for a Buick vehicle were diverted to other non-Buick related programs.

What happened to Buick's $3-Billion dollar promise... oh, how long ago was it... 3+ years ago????

.

Lucerne, Enclave, upcoming LaCrosse.

[CSpec]

Lucerne, Enclave, upcoming LaCrosse.

I would guess that included the cancelled Zeta sedan and Velite...

[VenSeattle]

I would guess that included the cancelled Zeta sedan and Velite...

Exactly... The pending Skylark issue may have changed things up a bit, but I currently don't see $3 Billion.