- - - - RWD vs. FWD proportions - - - -

[Sixty8panther]

TOP (green) modified by pushing front wheel forward

BOTTOM (silver/blue) production 2007 DTS

The wheelbase is the only thing I modified, the

overall length and all else is unchanged.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about

when I say that in profile FWD cars (with transverse

mounted motors esp.) are awkward, ungainly & in

many cases look just plain dumb to my eyes.

The front wheels look like they've been pushed back

4" to 10" and the wheelbase looks way too short as

a direct result. I think the green (modified) car looks

a million times better.

THOUGHTS!?

[Flybrian]

Still better than the Town Car.

In any case...

...were front-wheel drive and did not look it.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

68, has a point, but then there are exceptions to the rule. Like the Chevy Volt and a certain Citroen concept whose name escapes me.

[Drew Dowdell]

front overhangs what?

Edited June 30, 2007 by Oldsmoboi

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

The Citroen DS:

[Intrepidation]

front overhangs what?

Not all FWD cars have huge overhangs and not all RWD cars have tiny overhangs, as clearly shown

Not all FWD cars have bad proportions

[Robert Hall]

IMHO, the worst of some FWD cars proportionally are a long front overhang coupled with a very short front door to front wheelwell distance... I just don't like cars where it looks like the front wheel is almost in the interior (which unfortuately is also common with mid-engined cars).. w/ RWD, I'm fond of the classic long hood/short deck designs, long hood/long deck and cars with plenty of door-to-wheelwell distance (also referred to as firewall to front axle distance also, I think).

Speaking of well-proportioned FWD cars, the Intrepid and Aurora are two of my favorites... the Intrepid is one of my favorite domestic designs of the last decade--they are so sleek and look great in black. I also liked the proportions of the last Riviera (love the roofline and rear end) and the last two generations of Sevilles and the last Eldorado..

[Intrepidation]

IMHO, the worst of some FWD cars proportionally are a long front overhang coupled with a very short front door to front wheelwell distance... I just don't like cars where it looks like the front wheel is almost in the interior (which unfortuately is also common with mid-engined cars).. w/ RWD, I'm fond of the classic long hood/short deck designs, long hood/long deck and cars with plenty of door-to-wheelwell distance (also referred to as firewall to front axle distance also, I think).

Speaking of well-proportioned FWD cars, the Intrepid and Aurora are two of my favorites... the Intrepid is one of my favorite domestic designs of the last decade--they are so sleek and look great in black. I also liked the proportions of the last Riviera (love the roofline and rear end) and the last two generations of Sevilles and the last Eldorado..

Funny you should say that about black Intrepids. I love black cars, my next one will probably be one...and black looks good on any car...but for some reason it just doesn't look right on Intrepids, except the one I posted. I'm not sure...maybe it's that the factory black looks more like a dark, dark gray than a pure black. The one I posted was repainted...so maybe they used a deeper black. Maybe the black fades on Intrepids? I dunno...it's weird. I love Intrepids (like no one noticed ). IMO, they are the best looking of the LH models...with the 300M in 2nd place.

I lalso ove the Aurora, 1st or 2nd generation..both are sleek and look good from any angle. I still think the 2nd gen Aurora is one of GM's best midsize sedans.

[Robert Hall]

Funny you should say that about black Intrepids. I love black cars, my next one will probably be one...and black looks good on any car...but for some reason it just doesn't look right on Intrepids, except the one I posted. I'm not sure...maybe it's that the factory black looks more like a dark, dark gray than a pure black.

I know what mean about the factory black...I used to rent from Thrifty, and I had probably a dozen Intrepids, LHSes, Concordes and 300Ms from them from about '99-04... at least 6 were black, and the black did look like a metallic gray... sweet cars... I always enjoyed driving them.

[Intrepidation]

I know what mean about the factory black...I used to rent from Thrifty, and I had probably a dozen Intrepids, LHSes, Concordes and 300Ms from them from about '99-04... at least 6 were black, and the black did look like a metallic gray... sweet cars... I always enjoyed driving them.

They handle very well for such large cars...well weighted, communicative steering, great breaks with good pedal feel, well modulated gas pedal, and excellent suspension tuning that absorbs bumps and assorted road imperfections but at the same time has well controlled body roll. Sports Sedan is the phrase Sixxty8 used

Sorry to hijack the thread!

In the case of the DTS, as moving the front wheels forward does wonders for the proportions of the car.

Edited June 30, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Drew Dowdell]

I've often wondered why GM couldn't rotate the powertrain 180 degrees on production cars like they did for then bengal

[MyerShift]

If turning the powertrain 180* for better front proportions would be basically like having the engine mounted up toward the firewall and the transmission connecting to the front wheels which would now be well ahead of the engine, then that's a perfect proportioning solution to FWD cars that are to be FWD only. I think AWD would be a nightmare with that set up.

[Drew Dowdell]

If turning the powertrain 180* for better front proportions would be basically like having the engine mounted up toward the firewall and the transmission connecting to the front wheels which would now be well ahead of the engine, then that's a perfect proportioning solution to FWD cars that are to be FWD only. I think AWD would be a nightmare with that set up.

Well apparently, the center lines of the engine remain in relatively the same place. that's how they did the bengal

[Cory Wolfe]

FWD

RWD

Hmm....

[Intrepidation]

I want those wheels! I wouldn't even mind the car.

[Intrepidation]

RWD and less overhang than any FWD ever!

...or doors...or sheetmetal...or a motor...or a trunk...

[Camino LS6]

As a general rule, FWD cars have odd, unpleasant, proportions. 68 illustrated it well with the DTS pics.

Sure there are exceptions, but overhang isn't the whole story. Some of the worst -proportioned FWD cars suffer from a full size cabin with tiny front and rear clips, the 80s/90s Devilles are a great example of this.

[Sixty8panther]

You guys make some good points.... still the general rule remains.

The Fusion, McZephyr & Milan are the worst by far.

At least the G6 is handsome from other angles.

[Satty]

The G6 looks better than the Ford triplets? Have you ever seen a G6 in person? They're ungainly from every angle, its what happens when you use the LWB Epsilon platform for the "sporty" model, its got the worst roofline I can remember seeing on any car. Plus, the interior sucks.

You're only knocking the Fusion because you dont like me and I could actually afford to buy a car that will make it across the country and happened to choose that one.

[z28luvr01]

The smaller FWD cars look OK. I'm not totally grossed out by the Scion profile - its proportions are similar to my Cobalt. The "bad proportions" argument seems to hold true more for the mid-sized and larger cars. The excessive (according to our eyes) length is needed in these cars to fit a V6 or a V8. FWD cars designed around an I-4 don't have this problem so much.

The solution - a FWD-specific super-compact (<60*) V engine, or (hypothesizing here) an engine with the pistons arranged in a V but staggered in the same bank.

[ZL-1]

or (hypothesizing here) an engine with the pistons arranged in a V but staggered in the same bank.

that would be VW's VR6 engine

[Sixty8panther]

You're only knocking the Fusion because you dont like me and I could actually afford to buy a car that will make it across the country and happened to choose that one.

Get over yourself.

I have enough drama w/ my ex-G/F I don't need yours!

I think the G6 is a decent looking car overall... as a matter

of fact the roofline on the sedan esp. is downright swoopy.

The Fusion has nothing but a wannabe-Jetta styling.

For the record the Fusioon is still at least domestic unlike

your "Camry With Rear Door Delete" so you've moved up I

guess.... I think the Fusion tripplets are the 21st century

version of the Granada, Monarch & Versailles.

Now I will agree that they're still better looking than the

average Hyundai or Kia.

[Bimmer325]

[Intrepidation]

The last 2 look fine, but the first one is ugly any way you slice it.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Dodgefan

[capriceman]

Personally i like the DTS a lot. very nice ride it has some balls. refined interior. its a great high way cruiser. But puts a grin on your face in the twistys. Looks come 2nd in all my car buying decisions.

hmm....

You cant judge proportions just by drive wheels.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Olds and the Chrysler look ok but the MC is just terrible.

I've never noticed it before but the front wheel opening on the MC looks substantially larger than the rear.... maybe that makes it look even worse??

[Sixty8panther]

The GM has more than their fair share of examples...

Ford is no exception:

[Intrepidation]

Hey don't knock the Focus, it's an awesome car.

[Sixty8panther]

Well agree to disagree... the damn nose looks like a fanny-pack!

[Robert Hall]

I'd like to drive a Euro Focus RS (ST?). They are supposed to be a blast...

[Sixty8panther]

Okay then... fun to DRIVE it may be but I still say the

front overhang looks like Gilbert Grape's mom's butt.

[Sixty8panther]

Another quick example:

[91z4me]

Another quick example:

I can't quite put my finger on it but something looks really weird about the 'RWD' one.

Perhaps a mid rear engined car is the BEST compromise. You get the packaging and traction benefits of FWD but you don't have the ungangly proportions of FWD. Plus tire wear would be much more even.

Someone needs to make this fit 4 and it would be pure awesome as a daily driver.

Edited August 27, 2007 by 91z4me

[Sixty8panther]

It's a very crude example... all I did was move the front wheel

on the Impala forward about 10", just like with the earlier DTS.

[Sixty8panther]

Sorry to pick on Dodge Daytonas SpeedingPenguin...

The 1980s Daytonas are quite absurd. I joke around

with SP all the ntime and say he must have driven into

a curb at high speed & pushed the wheels back a good

14" from where they started.

Another exception to the rule... a very bizzare musclecar.

[Robert Hall]

The '69 Daytona and '70 Superbird were wonderfully outrageous cars from an era of wonderfully outrageous cars.. those old American muscle cars are so cool..

[Sixty8panther]

Since the overhangs help the cars get to 200.447 mph, I'm willing to forgive them.

Agreed.