why does GM allow toyota to say they have most powerful truck?

[Newbiewar]

The toyota advertizements have been claiming the 381 hp tundra is the most powerful in its class... when the denali 6.2 with 403? hp is the only truck with over 400 hp...?

why does GM allow this advertisement to take place?

[Northstar]

Only thing I can think of is if the fine print on the Tundra commercials says "based on 2006 MY competitors" or something like that.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The same reason GM has allowed pretty much EVERYONE in the market to kick them in the face for years: THEY HAVE HORRIBLE MARKETING AND COULDN'T SELL WATER TO A NOMAD. (And that goes for Ford too)

Prime example: Both the Titan and the Tundra have recently launched smear campaigns against the F-150 and Silverado, yet the only Silverado commercial I see is that "golly gee whiz" chrome edition commercial that the DEALERS finance.

The Toyota "Not your fathers truck" commercial especially pisses me off.

[Z-06]

The same reason GM has allowed pretty much EVERYONE in the market to kick them in the face for years: THEY HAVE HORRIBLE MARKETING AND COULDN'T SELL WATER TO A NOMAD. (And that goes for Ford too)

Prime example: Both the Titan and the Tundra have recently launched smear campaigns against the F-150 and Silverado, yet the only Silverado commercial I see is that "golly gee whiz" chrome edition commercial that the DEALERS finance.

The Toyota "Not your fathers truck" commercial especially pisses me off.

Yeah. GM needs some kick in the ass commercials. It would be nice if they turn the "Not your father's truck" around onto Toy.

[Drew Dowdell]

"The Tundra is not your father's truck because your father's truck can kick some serious butt!"

[Z-06]

"The Tundra is not your father's truck because your father's truck can kick some serious butt!"

Your Father's truck gets a 5-star crash safety rating and runs 300K miles without the engine falling apart. You are right it is not your Father's truck.

[Flybrian]

Its not your father's truck because your father was a man.

[Newbiewar]

how bad ass would it be to point out toyota as a fake, copy cat... in front of everyone's eyes?

say... toyota's started out... as mirror images of chevrolet's mechanically... so much so that... you could use chevrolet parts in the motor's of toyota...

certain slogans like baseball apple pie and chevrolet or was it "Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie & Chevrolet" baseball apple pie & toyota?

and its not your fathers buick? its not your fathers truck? yuck...

i'm certain there is more factual coping... but flybrain and others would be able to help me out...

[Flybrian]

Well, I'm going to keep an eye out for the ad. There is probably some disclaimer that allows it, but I know for a fact GMC is advertising the Sierra Denali and its 6.0l Vortec as the most powerful truck in its class, that class being half-ton pickups. Tundra is likewise in that class.

It wouldn't be the first time Toyota mislead on power ratings. Remember the 280hp Avalon? Oh, I mean the 270hp Avalon? Wait...the 268hp Avalon.

[Intrepidation]

GM should use this commercial:

http://www.brightcove.com/title.jsp?title=...annel=493148895

[thegriffon]

Only thing I can think of is if the fine print on the Tundra commercials says "based on 2006 MY competitors" or something like that.

"under $x,000"

[The O.C.]

The toyota advertizements have been claiming the 381 hp tundra is the most powerful in its class... when the denali 6.2 with 403? hp is the only truck with over 400 hp...?

why does GM allow this advertisement to take place?

Well, I can think of 2 things......a "dollars-and-sense thing".....and a "pick-your-battles" thing.

It most likely doesn't make a huge amount of sense to spend significant advertising dollars on a low-volume product such as the Sierra Denali in order to "combat" Toyota's claim of superiority.

NOW....if Silverado offered that same powertrain, GM would be in much better position to hit back at Toyota.......as the Silverado IS the largest volume in the range and does receive already the most advertising and marketing support.

[The O.C.]

It wouldn't be the first time Toyota mislead on power ratings. Remember the 280hp Avalon? Oh, I mean the 270hp Avalon? Wait...the 268hp Avalon.

Yeah....LOL....like the 240-hp Impala 3.9L.....oh, I mean the 233-hp Impala 3.9L......

Let's not get into yet ANOTHER debate over the new SAE horsepower ratings changes....

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Its not your father's truck because your father was a man.

:rotflmao:

I am sooo using that for a Silverado ad for the marketing thread.

[gm4life]

Or because your father had an actual penis. Sorry had to say it. Tundra's are for me with small dicks, actually no dick's at all. I have said that time and time again.

[drew770]

The reason why GM never responds to any commericals is because GM lives in a self grandiose bubble.

Plus, GM has cut themselves off from reality.

They had no idea that the government was going to increase CAFE so they did not prepare for it. GM also figured that Toyota could not produce a decent truck because Toyota is still a niche player according to GM.

Hybrids and the Toyota Prius is a joke and no one will be buying them.

SUVs will always be great sellers because gas will always be at $1.75 a gallon.

And so on and so on!!

[Flybrian]

Yeah....LOL....like the 240-hp Impala 3.9L.....oh, I mean the 233-hp Impala 3.9L......

Let's not get into yet ANOTHER debate over the new SAE horsepower ratings changes....

Actually, let's. Because Toyota continuted to advertise the Avalon at this specious 270hp rating for quite some time though it had absolutely no reason to be using a clearly false figure.

[CARBIZ]

Yeah....LOL....like the 240-hp Impala 3.9L.....oh, I mean the 233-hp Impala 3.9L......

Let's not get into yet ANOTHER debate over the new SAE horsepower ratings changes....

Congratulations! You found one GM vehicle that the hp rating dropped. YOu must have a good memory. On the other hand, more than a dozen Lexus and Toyota models dropped - some by more than 20 hp. That's more than a coincidence and more than an accident. Nearly all of Ford's and GM's numbers stayed the same or even went UP.

[balthazar]

>>"Toyota continuted to advertise the Avalon at this specious 270hp rating for quite some time though it had absolutely no reason to be using a clearly false figure."<<

Today I heard a honda radio commercial where they were using the tired 'service station workers are the loneliest' when they watch all the hondas go by. Because they never stop in. Funny thing is, the legalese said the claim for the highest mileage was based on 2005 figures !! Working the dead Impact's numbers in, by chance ?

[Camino LS6]

>>"Toyota continuted to advertise the Avalon at this specious 270hp rating for quite some time though it had absolutely no reason to be using a clearly false figure."<<

Today I heard a honda radio commercial where they were using the tired 'service station workers are the loneliest' when they watch all the hondas go by. Because they never stop in. Funny thing is, the legalese said the claim for the highest mileage was based on 2005 figures !! Working the dead Insight's numbers in, by chance ?

Friendly edit.

[plane]

Yeah....LOL....like the 240-hp Impala 3.9L.....oh, I mean the 233-hp Impala 3.9L......

Let's not get into yet ANOTHER debate over the new SAE horsepower ratings changes....

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/produ...ibu_Maxx_SS.pdf

The VVT engine will do 240 quite nicely.

Are you sure you saw the Impala advertised at 240? Or on a Window sticker?

GM is probably the most honest, best regarded manufacturer when it comes to vehicle horsepower.

All the GM SAE specs are posted online - http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/...other/index.htm.

Still waiting for Toyota and Honda to do the same with independently verified SAE results.

Waiting.

Patiently waiting.

Rip Van Winkle timescale waiting.

Sequoia Trees are born and die, waiting.

Tectonic plates form continents, waiting.

[scotthendersonfan]

Every single Toyota and Honda engine is SAE J1349 certified. Don't see what's the big deal about it.

[plane]

Every single Toyota and Honda engine is SAE J1349 certified. Don't see what's the big deal about it.

Really?

Truly?

You wouldn't lie about this would you?

Surely if those lesser manufacturers are proud of their 210 200 196 horsepower engines,

the should at least have the cahones to post their SAE test results on the web.

I mean, yeah, it's tough to meet that higher standard that GM has set.

And someday those lesser manufacturers "might" step up to the plate.

But until then.....

Still waiting.

Himalayas turned to flatland waiting.

[scotthendersonfan]

Really?

Truly?

You wouldn't lie about this would you?

Surely if those lesser manufacturers are proud of their 210 200 196 horsepower engines,

the should at least have the cahones to post their SAE test results on the web.

I mean, yeah, it's tough to meet that higher standard that GM has set.

And someday those lesser manufacturers "might" step up to the plate.

But until then.....

Still waiting.

Himalayas turned to flatland waiting.

Huh? What's with all the sarcasm and weird poetry. Are you a prick like this in real life as well? It's just a discussion forum man, take it easy.

The engine you mentioned was SAE rated, not intially, but towards the end. That explains the drop in the HP. But since then, every engine they've put out is SAE rated. Pretty much every single manufacturer does it nowadays. So if you're looking at an 07 or 08 model for instance, the engine will be SAE rated for power and will correspond to the new EPA standards for gas mileage.

[Drew Dowdell]

Huh? What's with all the sarcasm and weird poetry. Are you a prick like this in real life as well? It's just a discussion forum man, take it easy.

The engine you mentioned was SAE rated, not intially, but towards the end. That explains the drop in the HP. But since then, every engine they've put out is SAE rated. Pretty much every single manufacturer does it nowadays. So if you're looking at an 07 or 08 model for instance, the engine will be SAE rated for power and will correspond to the new EPA standards for gas mileage.

But they weren't SAE rated initially and Toyota advertised the hell out of the false/inaccurate numbers.

[plane]

Huh? What's with all the sarcasm and weird poetry. Are you a prick like this in real life as well? It's just a discussion forum man, take it easy.

You cannot possibly make a decent argument for Toyota and now you're reduced to this?

Your meltdown is most comical and bit pathetic.

Usually, Toyota lovers go one or two rounds before losing humor.

You lost it right from the start. Maybe you never had it?

Likely it seems.

The engine you mentioned was SAE rated, not intially, but towards the end. That explains the drop in the HP. But since then, every engine they've put out is SAE rated. Pretty much every single manufacturer does it nowadays. So if you're looking at an 07 or 08 model for instance, the engine will be SAE rated for power and will correspond to the new EPA standards for gas mileage.

SAE rated using the test method that is formally, independently verified as GM has done. No.

All engine test results posted on the web where everyone can see. No.

End of discussion. Talk to the hand.

Come back again when your favorite lesser manufacturer has the goods.

[eldiablobanshee]

Really?

Truly?

You wouldn't lie about this would you?

End of discussion. Talk to the hand.

Come back again when your favorite lesser manufacturer has the goods.

You must admit PLANE has very positive and friendly sarcasm even if you do not agree with what he says.

plus he is funny

Edited June 29, 2007 by eldiablobanshee

[cmattson]

Toyota brings this upon skepticism upon themselves. In the past, they've used ridiculous methods of testing hp (like removing required engine accessories -- alternator, power steering pump, etc). They've removed the rear seats of a prominent SUV before calculating interior space. They've measured ground clearance on a certain pickup truck from the bottom of the door sill to the ground (as opposed to the frame-to-ground like everybody else). The question shouldn't be "Why are do you question them?" but "Why SHOULDN'T you question them?"

[CARBIZ]

I can't say I blame Toyota for doing what they did (if we were truly honest, we would admit that most, if not all manufacturers have done similar stuff in the past), but what truly irks me is the fact that they got away with it. Not a whimper from the media. I don't think I even saw any coverage on this up here. All the Toyota apologists shrugged it off. Darren Seeman (I think that was his name), who runs ToyotaLife.com, was even quoted as saying he would continue to tell people that his Lexus was 300 hp!

Yet, 4 or 6 years ago, Hyundai got slammed with a class action suit for a transgression a lot less than this. HYUNDIA! I mean, who ever buys a Hyundai for horsepower? People are just happy when they start!

[Drew Dowdell]

Yet, 4 or 6 years ago, Hyundai got slammed with a class action suit for a transgression a lot less than this. HYUNDIA! I mean, who ever buys a Hyundai for horsepower? People are just happy when they start!

+ Ford Mustang Cobra

+ Mazda RX8

[scotthendersonfan]

You cannot possibly make a decent argument for Toyota and now you're reduced to this?

Your meltdown is most comical and bit pathetic.

Usually, Toyota lovers go one or two rounds before losing humor.

You lost it right from the start. Maybe you never had it?

Likely it seems.

SAE rated using the test method that is formally, independently verified as GM has done. No.

All engine test results posted on the web where everyone can see. No.

End of discussion. Talk to the hand.

Come back again when your favorite lesser manufacturer has the goods.

Comical meltdown would decribe YOU in that other thread when you accused me finding unavailable magical Toyota photos. Oddly, you never showed back up there.

Again, I don't know what you're referring to here. Every single Toyota engine is SAE certified under the voluntary SAE J1349 certification. That is exactly what GM is doing.

Prior to the new SAE specifications in 05, some manufacturers like Toyota and Chrysler used to specify gross HP (what the engine makes) while some like GM used to specify net HP (which gave you the net HP available at the flywheel with all accessories and emissions losses taken into account). The difference in HP could be as large as 100HP but no one was lying, it was just a difference in reporting what kind of power it was. Of course, those who were reporting net HP all along didn't see a large drop (some actually rose like the Z06) while those reporting gross noticed a loss in output. The engine was still putting out the same amount of HP so all the performance figures remained the same.

Almost every single manufacturer adheres to the voluntary SAE certification because it's taken as an industry standard. Now you can come back at me with some witty BS like you seem to be so good at but I think I've explained it clear enough. Some people enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing and putting other people down. I'm not one of them. Take this post for what it is.

[The O.C.]

+ Ford Mustang Cobra

+ Mazda RX8

+ Mazda Miata

[balthazar]

GM has been using SAE net HP ratings since the 1972 model year. So toyota was up to THIRTYTWOYEARS behind GM in using the modern net rating system that the entire rest of the industry had adopted long ago ?? Amazing.

>>"Prior to the new SAE specifications in 05, some manufacturers like Toyota and Chrysler used to specify gross HP"<<

[Newbiewar]

You cannot possibly make a decent argument for Toyota and now you're reduced to this?

Your meltdown is most comical and bit pathetic.

Usually, Toyota lovers go one or two rounds before losing humor.

You lost it right from the start. Maybe you never had it?

Likely it seems.

SAE rated using the test method that is formally, independently verified as GM has done. No.

All engine test results posted on the web where everyone can see. No.

End of discussion. Talk to the hand.

Come back again when your favorite lesser manufacturer has the goods.

can we please stay on subject... if you want to look over SAE numbers... please complain somewhere else... i know i'd be upset to if a vehicle i had was overrated... but simple statements like

talk to the hand

, will never help a discussion or win a debate. it just makes it look childish... lets just pay attention to the new ways of measuring power... accept the previous vehicles for what they had... whether it be toyota or GM, lets just leave it alone, and focus on the topic at hand.

now the question is... how can one company advertise it has the most power, when clearly it doesnt... i never heard any, most power for under 20k like the SRT4 originally advertised... just straight up, 381 hp, the most powerful truck in its class...

doesnt that call for a lawsuit or something along those lines?

[Intrepidation]

can we please stay on subject... if you want to look over SAE numbers... please complain somewhere else... i know i'd be upset to if a vehicle i had was overrated... but simple statements like , will never help a discussion or win a debate. it just makes it look childish... lets just pay attention to the new ways of measuring power... accept the previous vehicles for what they had... whether it be toyota or GM, lets just leave it alone, and focus on the topic at hand.

now the question is... how can one company advertise it has the most power, when clearly it doesnt... i never heard any, most power for under 20k like the SRT4 originally advertised... just straight up, 381 hp, the most powerful truck in its class...

doesnt that call for a lawsuit or something along those lines?

What for under 20k (like 5 bucks under) had more horsepower than the SRT4 at that time? No being a smartass, I honestly don't know.

I know it was bumped up in price when they made the diff standard, but since most people were adding the diff anyway, it seems worth the extra grand or so.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Newbiewar]

What for under 20k (like 5 bucks under) had more horsepower than the SRT4 at that time? No being a smartass, I honestly don't know.

I know it was bumped up in price when they made the diff standard, but since most people were adding the diff anyway, it seems worth the extra grand or so.

i wasnt saying that the chrysler statement was false... i was saying toyota doesnt have a statement in their advertisement about the tundra's power to forget the GMC denali...

but to answer your question... a used z28

[plane]

Comical meltdown would decribe YOU in that other thread when you accused me finding unavailable magical Toyota photos. Oddly, you never showed back up there.

Give it time young paduan. Everyone who saw your Toyota pictures is blowing chunks right now.

First a little recovery and lots of mopping up.

Again, I don't know what you're referring to here. Every single Toyota engine is SAE certified under the voluntary SAE J1349 certification. That is exactly what GM is doing.

Try www.sae.org, grab a login and look for your self. All GM. No Toyota. Power level 1 and 2. All GM.

Now throw in a bit of reading, from a Dodge site no less.....

In concert with the updates to the J1349 engine-testing standard comes an important new component: a voluntary test procedure - witnessed by an independent third party - that must be undertaken to earn the new “Certified” rating.

All auto makers now will test engines in compliance with the new J1349 procedure, but the certification test is optional - and likely to be at least somewhat controversial.

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showpost.p...amp;postcount=1

This has been confirmed from other sources as well.

That is exactly what I was referring to in my earlier post.

Toyota isn't operating at the higher standard.

Toyota isn't posting certified numbers.

Go ahead, show us the links to the Toyota Certified charts, we're still waiting.

GM is defining that higher standard.

If you want to criticize GM for understating F-body horsepower by 50, well that's legitimate.

But to claim Toyota is operating at exactly the same high level as GM is simply not true.

[scotthendersonfan]

In any case, coming back to the thread, pick up any new Toyota technical engine literature and you will see the SAE J1349 logo and a description stating that the engine has been rated in compliance with this new OPTIONAL standard. How else do you think the power dropped in 2005? Since then, all their engines have been tested under that standard. You can debate (if you can call it that) on an internet forum all you like, but I can tell you that IT IS A FACT. Maybe you need to witness the testing with your own eyes or see it published on the SAE site but that's alright, some people are paranoid. In the meanwhile, know that the engine makes the power that's stated and if you were to test it using the SAE procedures today, you'd come up with that number as well.

BTW why're you so hung up on Toyota. If it's all GM and no one else, why not blame BMW, Ford, MB and everyone else as well?

Edited June 30, 2007 by scotthendersonfan

[balthazar]

SHF- I think you're missing plane's point. He's not saying toyota doesn't use the new mandatory SAE J1349 testing standard, but that they do NOT use the optional independant 3-rd party verification proceedure as a follow-up.

[plane]

In any case, coming back to the thread, pick up any new Toyota technical engine literature and you will see the SAE J1349 logo and a description stating that the engine has been rated in compliance with this new OPTIONAL standard. How else do you think the power dropped in 2005? Since then, all their engines have been tested under that standard. You can debate (if you can call it that) on an internet forum all you like, but I can tell you that IT IS A FACT. Maybe you need to witness the testing with your own eyes or see it published on the SAE site but that's alright, some people are paranoid. In the meanwhile, know that the engine makes the power that's stated and if you were to test it using the SAE procedures today, you'd come up with that number as well.

BTW why're you so hung up on Toyota. If it's all GM and no one else, why not blame BMW, Ford, MB and everyone else as well?

hahahahahaha. So funny. Where have I heard your same schtick before?

Same post different forum.

No facts to back up your position.

You just won't admit that GM has set the standard and Toyota just doesn't have the class to keep up.

Blithe ignorance on your part or willing complacency? C&G readers can be the judge.

Pick up any new Toyota technical engine literature?

SAE J1349 Certified logo?

Where?

Where is this hidden mystical literature found?

Not at toyota.com.

Not at hinq.com

Not at camshaftsbreaking.com

Not at UnsoldTundrasDecayingontheLot.com

Not at beigeinteriors.com

Not even at toyotahumpers.com

For crying out loud, just bring some facts and some references to back it up.

Seriously, it's not at toyotahumpers.com.

[plane]

SHF- I think you're missing plane's point. He's not saying toyota doesn't use the new mandatory SAE J1349 testing standard, but that they do NOT use the optional independant 3-rd party verification proceedure as a follow-up.

balthazar - Yes. Exactly. Thank you very much for your cogent response. You are correct.

[Intrepidation]

i wasnt saying that the chrysler statement was false... i was saying toyota doesnt have a statement in their advertisement about the tundra's power to forget the GMC denali...

but to answer your question... a used z28

Give it time young paduan. Everyone who saw your Toyota pictures is blowing chunks right now.

First a little recovery and lots of mopping up.

Try www.sae.org, grab a login and look for your self. All GM. No Toyota. Power level 1 and 2. All GM.

Now throw in a bit of reading, from a Dodge site no less.....

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showpost.p...amp;postcount=1

This has been confirmed from other sources as well.

That is exactly what I was referring to in my earlier post.

Toyota isn't operating at the higher standard.

Toyota isn't posting certified numbers.

Go ahead, show us the links to the Toyota Certified charts, we're still waiting.

GM is defining that higher standard.

If you want to criticize GM for understating F-body horsepower by 50, well that's legitimate.

But to claim Toyota is operating at exactly the same high level as GM is simply not true.

Hah! I'm actually a member of Dodgetalk...but ironically I barely post there...always here.

--

Edited June 30, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Newbiewar]

lol i told my brother that as he was looking for a new car... got turned away by the high mark up on the srt4 at the time... but hes a toyota humper anyway... and was like naa man thats not true... my stock corolla beal all kinds of z28's

[FloydHendershot]

GMC takes care of this BS with their new commercial for the Denali.

Doubt they have the dough for the air time though to make it meaningful. Those Tundra commercials are getting rather filthy.

See that house? I built that house? Congratulations.

[vrazzhledazzle]

As much as I hate toy, you have to admit that they have some of the best marketing, they take advantage of anything positive regardless if its real or perceived. And America eats it all up.

On an upside, I see WAYYY more new Sierra/Silverados here in Arizona than Tundras. The only people that drive the tundra are your stereotypical ignorant, gullible, and just f@#kin clueless people that have never gotten their hands dirty. Also, never seen a Tundra with stickers and graphics and all used for a business

[A Horse With No Name]

I work in the construction industry. No one, and I mean no one who uses a truck for work uses a new toy Tundra.

They are a laughingstock on every construction site I am on...even the Titan guys laugh at it.

Chris

[CMG]

I'm used to the 1960's, when a 426 Hemi had 425 horsepower. Didn't matter what compression ratio, solid or hydraulic cam, street Hemi or race Hemi, intake, anything. 425 horsepower rating.

At least if all manufacturers are forced to provide numbers that can actually be COMPARED, it's a big step in the right direction.

Kudos to GM and all others IMO.

[BatmanGTO]

Anyone see the new silverado commercial with Howie Long and smearing toyota on MPG? Freakin Hilarious

[AAS]

Anyone see the new silverado commercial with Howie Long and smearing toyota on MPG? Freakin Hilarious

Saw it, and loved it! Also saw a commercial for the Sierra Denali, and how "it's the most powerful half-ton" or something along those lines. Oh yeah... even saw a really good one for the Tahoe hybrid.

[K.C.]

Does anyone else ever root for the black Tundra Crew Max to fall over the rim and down into the quarry on that one commercial where it pulls the cargo crate up?