7.0l LS7 Holden HSV Commodore GTS coming!

[Flybrian]

7.0l LS7 HSV GTS-R Coming in October

Wheels reports that Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) will commemorate its 20th anniversary by unveiling an incredible limited-run musclecar that portends to be Australia's fastest car ever built. While the official name isn't yet know - some predict it will be a combination of two previous heavyweight concepts and be dubbed GTS-R 427 - its confirmed that it will be powered by GM's 7.0l LS7 V8 putting out around 516hp and 478lbft of torque. Expect transmission to be limited to the Corvette Z06's six-speed Tremac unit.

Pricing is likely to run between $100-125k AUS, which is about half the price of the BMW M5. 0-60 is expected to match or exceed the M5's at 4.7sec and running 0-400m in under 13sec. Top speed is predicted to be ~180mph.

As far as meeting demand, well, apparently four dealers have already taken deposits.

[Camino LS6]

M5? What M5?

[BuddyP]

Oh man that is sick!

[FAPTurbo]

Pricing is likely to run between $100-125k AUS, which is about half the price of the BMW M5. 0-60 is expected to match or exceed the M5's at 4.7sec and running 0-400m in under 13sec.

0WN3D!

[Camino LS6]

If Pontiac wants to be seen as the American BMW, this is the secret weapon!

Bring it!

[Northstar]

Would this be cost-effective in the US? If you get to $45k+ in the US I think most people would opt for the CTS-V for $10k more. I agree we need it, but perhaps their is a more cost-effective way than the LS7. Perhaps a detuned CTS-V engine.

[loki]

would those be aussie SAE numbers? or would the vetter get the small bump too?

[ToneyTone]

GM would just be idiots not to make a G8 version.

[Northstar]

would those be aussie SAE numbers? or would the vetter get the small bump too?

Dynos have shown that the Z06 is underrated, so I would guess it actually has 516HP.

[Camino LS6]

Would this be cost-effective in the US? If you get to $45k+ in the US I think most people would opt for the CTS-V for $10k more. I agree we need it, but perhaps their is a more cost-effective way than the LS7. Perhaps a detuned CTS-V engine.

It would be exclusive and low-production by necessity. So, no decontenting allowed. This should be the no compromises product at the very top of the Pontiac portfolio. Call it a shot across the bow of BMW.

It needs to be done because it can be done.

To borrow a Ford catch phrase, Pontiac needs a "bold move" and this , quite plainly, should be it.

[Z-06]

I think there is nothing wrong with G8 with LS7 coexisting with the CTS-V. For one this will bring the cost of the LS-7 down. CTS-V and the G8 will me enamored by different people. If MB can successfully whore the 6.2L engine in everything that moves in their lineup, LS7, is not a bad choice at all.

Personally, I think the G8 will be more of a M5 fighter than the CTS-V.

[Camino LS6]

In Australian racing Holden regularly trounces BMW.

Pontiac needs some of that!

[Newbiewar]

I think there is nothing wrong with G8 with LS7 coexisting with the CTS-V. For one this will bring the cost of the LS-7 down. CTS-V and the G8 will me enamored by different people. If MB can successfully whore the 6.2L engine in everything that moves in their lineup, LS7, is not a bad choice at all.

Personally, I think the G8 will be more of a M5 fighter than the CTS-V.

the G8 will be bigger then the CTS by quite a bit if i understand things right... CTS is probaby a little bigger then current malibu no? and G8 is full size sedan

[Flybrian]

I should've included that the horsepower ratings are the metric numbers in the article that I plugged into some conversion program, so...if it turns out lower/higher...sorry!

[Northstar]

It would be exclusive and low-production by necessity. So, no decontenting allowed. This should be the no compromises product at the very top of the Pontiac portfolio. Call it a shot across the bow of BMW.

It needs to be done because it can be done.

To borrow a Ford catch phrase, Pontiac needs a "bold move" and this , quite plainly, should be it.

But the CTS-V is also low-production by necessity and very exclusive. If this model costs $50k, who's paying Cadillac money for a Pontiac? If they can throw a supercharged LS3 in there with the same amount of power and are able to keep it at about $40k, then people would certainly buy it. I know if I was given the choice between a 516HP G8 and a 600HP CTS-V and the CTS-V was $5k more, I wouldn't be getting the G8. I agree it needs to be done, but it doesn't make any sense if it costs as much or very close to the CTS-V. I'd rather see a 430HP LS3-equipped G8 take on the SRT-8s and let the CTS-V take care of the M3 and M5 than have a bunch of $50k Pontiacs that can't be sold sitting on lots.

I think there is nothing wrong with G8 with LS7 coexisting with the CTS-V. For one this will bring the cost of the LS-7 down. CTS-V and the G8 will me enamored by different people. If MB can successfully whore the 6.2L engine in everything that moves in their lineup, LS7, is not a bad choice at all.

Personally, I think the G8 will be more of a M5 fighter than the CTS-V.

The LS7 would not be much cheaper with the added production; they already make it as a crate engine (that costs like $15k or something without some of the hardware that comes in the Z06) and unless you want them to stop manufacturing it by hand (which isn't happening) then labor costs are not going to go down on a per-engine basis, either.

MB can successful stick the 6.2 in all of their vehicles because 1) it isn't hand-built as far as I know and is therefore a lot cheaper to manufacture, 2) the name on the car reads "Mercedes Benz" and therefore is only being bought by people who can afford to spend $50k on a car without a problem and 3) the name on the car does not read "Pontiac."

The CTS-V competes with the M5 more because they're both premium brands and would possibly be cross-shopped. I don't think many people go to BMW and plan to take a trip to the Pontiac dealer after they test drive an M5.

[Camino LS6]

One look and I'd buy the Pontiac, not the Caddy. They have a very different appeal and audience.

This Pontiac should start around 45k and stop short of 50k.

Also, cross-shopping with BMW isn't really required though outperforming them for about 50% of the money is.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Not to mention, if Pontiac ever wants to be taken seriously in sports car/BMW land, it has to start somewhere.

If Hyundai and Subaru can assert themselves as luxury divisions now, then why can't GM reposition their divisions as well? Let Pontiac run with BMW, and if people have doubts, then let them drive the cars and see for themselves.

Edited June 27, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Camino LS6]

Not to mention, if Pontiac ever wants to be taken seriously in sports car/BMW land, it has to start somewhere.

If Hyundai and Subaru can assert themselves as luxury divisions now, then why can't GM reposition their divisions as well? Let Pontiac run with BMW, and if people have doubts, then let them drive the cars and see for themselves.

If they decide to do a Saturn- style side by side, I may never leave my Pontiac dealer.

[jbartley]

amazing. truly.

[Northstar]

One look and I'd buy the Pontiac, not the Caddy. They have a very different appeal and audience.

This Pontiac should start around 45k and stop short of 50k.

Also, cross-shopping with BMW isn't really required though outperforming them for about 50% of the money is.

Maybe you would, but not many people are going to buy the Pontiac. It's rather sad, but not many people who have the money to buy a $45k car are going to look at Pontiac.

I'm not saying Pontiac does not need a car like this, I'm saying bringing the GTS here is not the answer. It's going to be way too expensitve to put the LS7 in it, and more cost effective by far to use a supercharged LS3 that's going to go into other things in a lot bigger volume. Essentially, putting the LS7 in the G8 is like putting the "Cadillac of engines" into a Pontiac and putting a less-expensive engine into the CTS-V. I don't see it happening.

Not to mention, if Pontiac ever wants to be taken seriously in sports car/BMW land, it has to start somewhere.

If Hyundai and Subaru can assert themselves as luxury divisions now, then why can't GM reposition their divisions as well? Let Pontiac run with BMW, and if people have doubts, then let them drive the cars and see for themselves.

Hyundai and Subaru are luxury divisions? They might be trying, but they certainly aren't there, or even close. The Tribeca (the only vehicle that could be considered "luxury" in Subaru's lineup, IMO) sold 1166 units last month; not too impressive. The Azera isn't exactly setting the charts on fire either.

Letting Pontiac go after BMW is OK, but they aren't going to beat them because the cost difference gives BMW such a big advantage in what sort of technology can be packed into the vehicle.

A base Vette starts around $50k (below actually) and the Z06 starts at about $70k. That's a $20k difference, and while the Z06 has other changes too, you have to think that around $10k of that increase is due to the engine.

The G8 GXP needs to be a $5k option (a la the Solstice GXP package), not a $10k package. Therefore, they need to slap a supercharger on it and call it a day. It will be nearly as effective (if not more) and cost much less. Why are we complaining about paying less for the same thing? Isn't that what we're calling for Pontiac to be about? Offering BMW performance for less? Then what is wrong with offering the same power for a lower price?

I'm not against a G8 GXP at all, but I am against a G8 GXP that puts it in a price range similar to the CTS-V.

[Camino LS6]

Northie, I'm thinking way past the GXP version with this one. This should be the Zo6 of Pontiacs with the GXP being a standard Vette.

HSV can only build a few per year anyway.

Also, these cars will be built so why not let a few out the door in Pontiac trim?

[Northstar]

What do you suggest for the GXP? LS3?

Even still, I don't see the reason to go LS7 over detuned LS9 that's cheaper no matter how many you want to sell.

[Camino LS6]

What do you suggest for the GXP? LS3?

Even still, I don't see the reason to go LS7 over detuned LS9 that's cheaper no matter how many you want to sell.

GXP has to be much more available and inexpensive and a regular production engine.

LS7 works because it is about to be an orphan engine which is the ideal time for a limited run of cars. HSV is taking advantage of that to build the beast. These cars will be upgraded in other ways as well as a whole package - essentially a tuner version not possible on the regular line. So I'm saying strike while the iron is hot.

Don't think of it as "using" the LS7 so much as "using" the existence of the HSV to get a few top dog Pontiacs.

[Camino LS6]

I see a great future for this type of Pontiac built by HSV.

Rotate the product that gets the "treatment" often and you build a new rep for Pontiac.

EDIT: I also think that HSV's practice of changing the name of the car their models are based on should be continued with any HSV Pontiac.

[Z-06]

The LS7 would not be much cheaper with the added production; they already make it as a crate engine (that costs like $15k or something without some of the hardware that comes in the Z06) and unless you want them to stop manufacturing it by hand (which isn't happening) then labor costs are not going to go down on a per-engine basis, either.

While, I do not doubt your numbers, I fail to see where that $15k price for the LS7 comes from. I do not think labor plays that important role in the price. It is the gizmos like the dry sump, titanium blocks, which makes the engine expensive. The actual difference between robotized engine manufacturing and human-made is 1. its novice and rarity (to show I am different) and 2. its precision and care, which the modern machines cannot match. It is the second reason why all the Formula-1 engines and most of the race car engines are hand built. Although the price will do rise for a hand built engine, it will not certainly rise beyond twice the conventional engine. It is not the Engine which makes Z06 about $20k more expensive to the bread and butter but these reasons:

a. Its aerodynamics.

b. Its suspension and weight saving measures.

c. Chevy did some market research by asking then existing C5 Z6 owners and they knew given the power and dynamics people would be willing to pay that $70K price. In fact people were willing to pay more, that is why you saw a jump of $5k in its price in Z06's second MY i.e. 2007.

d. Co-development with the C6-R. You gotta remember that GM was in a not so good financial state when Z06 was under research and development. Racing never gives back money other than publicity especially Le-Mans type, Chevy "intelligently" payed for the development of C6-R through LS7 and Z06.

e. With high price rise, Chevy was testing waters for the upcoming Blue Devil.

Although I cannot verify the point e. Points a-d can be easily found in magazine articles.

MB can successful stick the 6.2 in all of their vehicles because 1) it isn't hand-built as far as I know and is therefore a lot cheaper to manufacture, 2) the name on the car reads "Mercedes Benz" and therefore is only being bought by people who can afford to spend $50k on a car without a problem and 3) the name on the car does not read "Pontiac."

I disagree with you with regards to the AMG engine. AMG blows trumpets for their hand built engines. Here is something from the Horse's Mouth:

UNIQUE, HIGH-PRECISION CRAFTSMANSHIP

From the time of our company' s founding in 1967, every AMG engine has been manufactured with the philosophy "one man, one engine" in mind at the heart of every AMG is the work of a single engineer, from start to finish.

That philosophy continues today, and informs everything we do. At our engine factory at Affalterbach, which was opened in 2002 to commemorate the company's 35th anniversary, our highly-trained team of employees turns out approximately 100 AMG engines for different vehicle models every day. The production process is configured for maximum flexibility, allowing smooth rescheduling of production between the various engines in line with fluctuating demand.

An important feature of our engine factory is that all the different functional sectors are grouped together under one roof. The resulting short distances and optimized processes create improved working conditions for all employees. State-of-the-art logistics underpin a highly flexible and efficient production process. As soon as assembly of an engine has been completed, an engineer performs function tests at the "cold-testing" station, using simulated resistances and pressures. The AMG engines are then automatically transported by lift from the ground floor to a high-bay storage facility on the upper story of the building, with space for more than 1,000 engines.

The CTS-V competes with the M5 more because they're both premium brands and would possibly be cross-shopped. I don't think many people go to BMW and plan to take a trip to the Pontiac dealer after they test drive an M5.

Inline with the same argument, people will then cross-shop M3 and the M5. My point is, Pontiac should try different approach. If they want to be envisioned as Sporty Brand, they should be Giant Killers. Dimensionally M5 and G8 LS7 will sit squat with each other, the only difference will be the price. It is the same way how the car magazines pitted Dodge Magnum SRT8 with the E55 AMG Wagon. Are people going to cross-shop them? No. But imagine bragging rights Dodge would have had, had they not been under the same umbrella of Diamler.

Not to mention, if Pontiac ever wants to be taken seriously in sports car/BMW land, it has to start somewhere.

If Hyundai and Subaru can assert themselves as luxury divisions now, then why can't GM reposition their divisions as well? Let Pontiac run with BMW, and if people have doubts, then let them drive the cars and see for themselves.

Absolutely FOG. I could not have said it better. When a novice wrestler starts calling shots against a virtuoso, people start paying attention. As most of us know, not many people are in-depth with automobile industry. Their knowledge goes to the vadose level instead of deep artesian aquifer. If Pontiac uses this heuristic knowledge, they will not necessary get cross-shoppers of M5 into their doors, but those lame ducks who would have ended up with a 335i or a IS350 will definitely look for a M5 beater for that price.

Maybe you would, but not many people are going to buy the Pontiac. It's rather sad, but not many people who have the money to buy a $45k car are going to look at Pontiac.

Northie, I am not trying to berate you, but you sounded like Grandpa Flint. When Z06 was out people were saying who will buy a $70K Chevy, yet all the 2008 production is sold, which is the third year in a row for that car. How can Pontiac really know if they have a $45K market if they do not make a very good, limited numbers car, with an exotic engine and market it good. Why LS7 should be there? Because it is a Corvette Z06 engine. I have seen many people bragging about the Gen-1 CTS-V saying that it has a Corvette engine. You gotta agree there is something in that name which brings fear, respect and awe in people.

Northie, I'm thinking way past the GXP version with this one. This should be the Zo6 of Pontiacs with the GXP being a standard Vette.

HSV can only build a few per year anyway.

Also, these cars will be built so why not let a few out the door in Pontiac trim?

GXP has to be much more available and inexpensive and a regular production engine.

LS7 works because it is about to be an orphan engine which is the ideal time for a limited run of cars. HSV is taking advantage of that to build the beast. These cars will be upgraded in other ways as well as a whole package - essentially a tuner version not possible on the regular line. So I'm saying strike while the iron is hot.

Don't think of it as "using" the LS7 so much as "using" the existence of the HSV to get a few top dog Pontiacs.

I see a great future for this type of Pontiac built by HSV.

Rotate the product that gets the "treatment" often and you build a new rep for Pontiac.

EDIT: I also think that HSV's practice of changing the name of the car their models are based on should be continued with any HSV Pontiac.

Well Said Camino.

[Jamie]

The story over here is that one has already gone down the production line, and suppliers are quoting on the supply of items for the car ... however there is also some suspicion that the car may be a smoke screen to distract the press so some other development project can continue under cover.

If it does get built, there is also some debate on how many will be built. One report says that production will be limited to 100 per year (based on leaks of what the parts suppliers are being asked to quote on), and another report says that there will be a total of 20 built to match the 20th anniversary of HSV.

[toesuf94]

I am with camino in this one, the G8 GT is supposed to be a full sized sedan, whereas the CTS is aiming right between 3 and 5 series in the size department...so that would put the G8 in the size realm of the BMW 7 series...which is the car I am most comfortable in. I like big cars. The CTS always left me wanting more room in it. If the G8 is indeed a true full-sized car, and could be had with the LS7...I would choose it over the Caddy. (I would be REALLY happy if they brought out a Catalina Wagon version of the G8 with this driveline!)

Let's not forget to throw into the mix the NG Impala which will be Zeta based and RWD...and we will have a lot of choices at the GM stores pretty soon!

[ToneyTone]

What I think will happen is that the GXP will get the LS7 along with the camaro and next gen GTO. The price of the CTS-V will grow to about 60-65k fully loaded and will have the blown LS3 good for 550-600hp. Now everyone is happy.

[thedriver]

Also to think about besides pricing and size comparisons is STYLE. I think the CTS isn't that attractive, but would LOVE of drive a G8 with that engine. You have two different audiences with Cadillac and Pontiac, for the same power and price you won't be fighting for the same customers..

[Northstar]

Northie, I am not trying to berate you, but you sounded like Grandpa Flint. When Z06 was out people were saying who will buy a $70K Chevy, yet all the 2008 production is sold, which is the third year in a row for that car. How can Pontiac really know if they have a $45K market if they do not make a very good, limited numbers car, with an exotic engine and market it good. Why LS7 should be there? Because it is a Corvette Z06 engine.

The Z06 sells well because it offers performance better than or comparable to cars that cost 3x as much. The Z06 would not sell well if it cost the same as those cars (what are you going to pick, the Z06 or F430?), which is what you're asking the G8 w/LS7 to do: sell with a price very similar to a more prestigious brand that offers a product that will be even a better performer (CTS-V).

I still don't understand why all of you think it must have the LS7. Why are we against making it cheaper and still having the same performance? I guarantee you know one will care what engine it has if it's faster than the M5. Hell, you'd be able to say "this engine is similar to the Corvette Blue Devil engine" if it got the detuned LS9 instead of "it has the Z06 engine." Now which one sounds better?

[Jamie]

Just something to think about. The US dollar is going down in value. At the moment the AUD$ is at around USD$0.85 and going up. The AUD$100k~$125k price they are quoting for this car will put it at the USD$85k~$105k price range if it comes similarly equipped. Even if they change nothing else on the G8 GT and just add the LS7, then I'd expect something like a USD$15k~$20k price premium for the LS7 engine option.

The only way I can see this working for Pontiac is if they do a high dollar "halo" car that's basically a top of the range HSV vehicle with Pontiac badging. Forget about pricing this for the average consumer. This should be a no compromise performance car that would tempt M series BMW or AMG series Benz customers. For the same reason, there should be no automatic option, so that it doesn't become a "look at me" boulevard cruiser for the Rodeo Drive set.

[Camino LS6]

Just something to think about. The US dollar is going down in value. At the moment the AUD$ is at around USD$0.85 and going up. The AUD$100k~$125k price they are quoting for this car will put it at the USD$85k~$105k price range if it comes similarly equipped. Even if they change nothing else on the G8 GT and just add the LS7, then I'd expect something like a USD$15k~$20k price premium for the LS7 engine option.

The only way I can see this working for Pontiac is if they do a high dollar "halo" car that's basically a top of the range HSV vehicle with Pontiac badging. Forget about pricing this for the average consumer. This should be a no compromise performance car that would tempt M series BMW or AMG series Benz customers. For the same reason, there should be no automatic option, so that it doesn't become a "look at me" boulevard cruiser for the Rodeo Drive set.

[vrazzhledazzle]

**orgasm**

lol

[rkmdogs]

the G8 will be bigger then the CTS by quite a bit if i understand things right... CTS is probaby a little bigger then current malibu no? and G8 is full size sedan

Oh you of ambiguous statements..............

Please define "full size" in specific terms, 'cause the definition of it, in my mind keeps

moving with each era!

'60's and '70's "full size" cars were MUCH larger dimensionally than what some folks

call "full size" today.

These definitions seem to change faster than you can change your underware, ..... and make

even less sense!

I would like someone to tell me, other than by cubic volume, what parameters are now being

used to categorize car sizes?

[thegriffon]

would those be aussie SAE numbers? or would the vetter get the small bump too?

Probably DIN hp, which is what HSV usually quotes, not the SAE figures quoted for the Z06. Don't tell the Aussie press though, they like to think putting an American engine in an aussie car automatically gives it at least 10 more hp. :AH-HA_wink:

[thegriffon]

Oh you of ambiguous statements..............

Please define "full size" in specific terms, 'cause the definition of it, in my mind keeps

moving with each era!

'60's and '70's "full size" cars were MUCH larger dimensionally than what some folks

call "full size" today.

These definitions seem to change faster than you can change your underware, ..... and make

even less sense!

I would like someone to tell me, other than by cubic volume, what parameters are now being

used to categorize car sizes?

Overall length and width, wheelbase, engine size, price … of course there is no consistent standard. In different releases a planned midsize B-segment sedan has been described as both D-segment, and B-segment. Japanese cars have difference licence plate numbers depending on size, but I haven't been able to find the full list. Beside the Keijidosha light cars (the standards for which are changed occasionally), the main limit is 4.7 m long, 1.7 m wide and under 2.0 L for "small size" cars. Quite a number of Japanese midsize cars have been built in both "small size" (for the domestic market) and "normal size" versions (primarily for export)—Legend, Camry, Sentia (929) etc.