Things I'm tired of

[razoredge]

Yo Turbo you got something to say about me spit.

A "few of the others here", must be me so spit it out.

You started your post with a anti name calling spew, then you finished it with comments about cheerleaders and "showing weakness". I have no weekness and if you and the croc want to come around degrading folks and their cars take what ya get.

Ya want to call us weak, cheerleaders, and theres been others but I dont have the time. Yet the post starts with poster saying the cars are totally crap, substandard. If I get pissed about this it is because I was just called "substandard". Do we need more fighten words ? Then you want to cry and attack and degrade because some of us stand up and say bull?.....now we are showing weakness? Because we say they are not crap in a direct responce to a "crap" statement....now that means we are just saying they are not crap ? OK..... maybe this will help, my H and C bodys are the most excellent of cars ! I hope this helps clear the air some.

Man you might better start your own car company because you might just be more of all that than your Toyotas.

I to have spent much time around cars and truth is most of them are just man made junk. Anything steel can be broken, anything !!!!! There made to last 4 years for origional buyer and that is it. I used to drive Toys Hondas, VW's, Datsun's, then I found my beloved H bodies........must have been one of my "weak" moments right ? Unlike some here I actually have a licence, buy my own cars, pay my own bills and am on more than my second car and have spent countless hours doing all my own mechanical work as well as much restification of rusty undercarraiges, truck frames, various sheet metal work, ect. I have countless hours into removing plastic dash panels and door panels, I hate plastic but everyone is using it and has been for decades.

So Im a weak, yesman, cheerleader but Im still waiting to hear
What about that Crapaliar ?
Im still waiting to hear about what made any of my 86,90,or 97 H/C bodies substandard ?
Im looking forward to any direct comments to BLu and others that have pointed out problems with other cars.

the best that ever gets pulled from the hat is "high tec" engine spew and "interior materials" or "interior layout" yet I have signs of weakness ?

Its been so obvious that only way to get you guys happy is to put the exact Honda interior in each and every GM, then if only we would buy our engines wholesale from Japplant.com you will finally be happy. Yet you support your constant degrading of GM here on the fact that diversity of opinion is great. Yet we can not have our opinion when in fact we do actually drive the cars in question :unsure: Its just so confusing :blink:

Till you and croc and the other GM haters can come to grips with the fact that some of us here do drive GM's and some like myself have drivin and owned many GMs and have complete satisfaction with them..........back off ! Or am I to assume your insistance is some form of weakness :o ?

I think Toyota and Honda should hire you and croc to go do their promoting because that is exactly what you come here to try to do. Have you seen the commercial of the salesman that put customer in car and says "you dont want to buy a car here "..........well thats you and croc and quite a few others. Its so nice to spend time with ya.

:CG_all: :unsure:

[SingleStylish]

So now Im a yes man ????? yup yup yup yup yup yuppy ! yup thats me.  :blink:

So what about that Crapaliar and the toyota connection, I know theres one I just dont know what it is.

I dont know much about GM's past small cars. The Baretta's, old Cavaliers and Sunbirds? are just finally fading from site around this area within the last 2-3 years. Im talking a tri city area plus all the surronding hill towns. Nothing really huge but diverse of car choises.

Well the GM's I drive are great and Japs havent had anything in that type of car. I love my cars, because everytime I go sit down, turn the key and drive away I just feel like saying..... "Yes !!"......  B)

as for the Asian cheerleader, lets just say "your easily entertained"

[post="24530"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Toyota sold the Cavalier in Japan for a short time. After lackluster sales the vehicle was no longer sold as a Toyota in Japan. The car never was and never has been any part Toyota. The only part where Toyota came in was that Geo/Chevy got the Corolla and Toyota got the "crapalier."

And to all those who call anyone who buys a foreign car a "sheople..."

I was the most devout fan of General Motors for 21 years. In that time I owned three GM vehicles: an '87 Olds Cutlass Calais, a '92 Ext. Cab LWB C1500 Chevy, and my current GM purchase '01 Silverado Reg. Cab SWB. I have placed my faith and buying power in GM as a consumer for a number of years. After driving GM's latest offerings earlier this year my wife and I decided to trade our POS '03 VW that she had before we got married. We test drove everything GM: G6, Malibu, Impala, Saturn Vue, Equinox, Cobalt. We also drove things non-GM like Mazda 3 and 6 along with the Mercury Mariner, even drove a new Jetta and Passat... When we went to the last place, which both of us where apprehensive about, we felt like this was a good deal. We had gone into the local Honda dealer where we drove everything from top of the line to bottom of the line. We felt like the price we would pay matched the level of refinement and build quality along with appeal. Something that all of the others left us not feeling (especially the 27k G6).

Now I have been a GM supporter and C&G fan for a very long time... even going so far as to talk others into GM purchases but, when it came time to put my money down on something... GM just didn't have anything that fit the bill. Now seeing things from the other side I think that is why so many people just don't buy GM cars anymore. The price and percieved build quality just don't match.

Personally I don't want anymore appologies if GM expects me to buy GM next time. NO MORE 18k Malibu LT's with a sticker of 23k. No more low cost cars that only stand on low price points to gain sales.

I'll go on record saying this, if GM produced one middle of the road mainstream model that delivered elgance and refinement for the premium I paid for Honda I would buy it. End of story...

Now no more name calling. Grow up. We're only talking cars!

[SingleStylish]

PS I still own my "SINGLE cab, STYLISH sunset orange" pickup. It has 80k and runs like a top!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I never said GMs cars were trash. On the contrary, they have consistently been solid vehicles. Here's the problem with this. You are defending them by saying they are not trash. That really sucks, ya know? This company can get it so wrong that here we stand saying they are at least not trash. Couldn't they have shot higher?

Absolutely.

Well, I can point to a number of magazines/websites that have now changed their ways and are praising some of GMs newest cars, because they are recognizing the real improvements they are.

And I see that too, but it's going to take more than a few good reviews to reverse the years of damage that the media has done (And amazing is still doing despite the red ink at Ford, who is in worse shape anyway and GM) The story of Ford amazes me because it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The company really gained footing in the Nassar days as far as growth is concerned and at one time they were poised to surpass GM according to the media. Then (My guess is because they were doing a little to well) the media turned on them. It started with the whole Firestone fiasco (Eventhough Ford had nothing to do with that) and has lasted WEEKLY and DAILY until Ford has been reduced to a rebadging unit using Mazda platforms and rebadged cars at each of its divisions. In fact analysts said that had Ford not been a household name they would've been bought out or went bankrupt during this time period. So, the bad hysteria created by the media almost detroyed Ford just like it did Chrysler during it's time and had the Ford family not held a majority share, we would've probably witnessed another buyout. Then it seems they started focusing on GM, so much so now that we're to the point of Kerkorian coming in and threatening to whore the comapny and it's assets out to foreign/outside ownership. (Remember Chrysler, this is when the downhill slide REALLY began)

It's just a huge scam that everyone has bought into which is perpetuated by lackluster cars in many cases (Sure I'll give you that) but mostly by an ANTI-Detroit sentiment that is injected into the peoples heads DAY in and DAY out by the chosen few.

In some cases, but not nearly as prevalently as you would say so, journalists can insert their bias into testing and debase a car for seemingly no reason.

It happens ALL the time now... Cars in general are so good that they are rated failure or winner based on cheesy, minor subjective factors.. Pretty much I can say; "Well I like the wing on the Cobalt better, it doesn't rattle as much" and declare it the winner and the sad part is 'pop culture' buys it hook, line and sinker.

PRIME EXAMPLE: The "Cheap Speed" test in Car and Driver recently in which the GM twins (Ion RL and Cobalt SS/SC) outperformed the imports AND cost less yet were placed in 4th and 5th place because of SUBJECTIVE measures.... "Well, we like the RSX better because were bigger fans of Acura than Chevy" Sure, they'll never say that but essentially that's the level journalism has fallen to now.

What about the article in which Buick placed over Lexus in a satisfaction survey yet the author made the excuse that Lexus owners are more discerning than Buick owners to justify the higher placement. No facts, just the authors biased opinion. And now every quality discussion we get into someone brings up the fact that "Well, Lexus owners are more critical" BULLSH*T! How about this; "Domestic owners are more critical because they EXPECT bad reliability based on what they've BEEN TOLD, not experienced"

It's this justification of imports STILL being better than domestics because of the authors' blind loyalty REGARDLESS of how much better the domestic actually performs that will be the death of Detroit. And it's sad because the public is really missing out now on some great car/trucks simply because the media is conditioning them to NOT EVEN CONSIDER domestics... It's all planned and all a ploy.

You say the media will always look down upon. I don't know what your situation or environment is, or if your overall kind of a skeptic in many more ways than you think.

Yes. I openly admit that a lot of times I am a pretty negative person and usually have a pretty negative outlook. But trends don't change in 5 years... In the U.S. it has become a CULTURE to hate the big three, this has been going on since the days of Nader and the days of the fuel crisis. I just think that it is going to be VERY difficult to change such an ingrained and passionate culture (of hating domestics) especially when you get paid to do it like the media does because that's what your readers want or how they view the world.

Am I an optimist? Sure, in a strange way; as in I think that everything is a fight for survival in this industry and society, and I know what can be accomplished in times like these by innovative and passionate people... I think that domestics can come back and I definately believe in their spirit to fight (Obviously by the countless remarks I've made about picking themselves up and getting to it again) BUT, I'm also a realist.. Reality tells me that there is no end in sight for this dark deterioration that our companies have endured for years on end now.

Not only is GM going to have to make segment busters and leaders but they are also going to have the impossible task of changing the enemy's opinion (And by that I mean the jaded consumers and the media, because they are in essence enemies if they do not support GM) They have to do this all while having a smaller budget and being hampered by ever growing costs. Reality says that cannot be done or at the very least is close to impossible.

With your last point about credibility, again this wasn't something I was specifically referring to you, and I don't know why you took it that way. I thought we usually agree, and sometimes we don't, ah well.

I didn't take it personally and I hope you haven't either, in fact in a strange way I'm kinda jealous because my passion for GM doesn't allow me to be as unbiased as you. It would be a lot less stress and a lot more happiness. I just figured I would put my thoughts out there.

[bowtie_dude]

Wow...look what I started! I hope no one is mad or offended, I certainly meant no offense. I was just ranting.

[SingleStylish]

No you didn't start anything that didn't already exist in some form... I think some people just take too much of this car talk seriously. The reality is that none of what we talk about here really affects someones life.

[Cory Wolfe]

Oh... but it does. If somebody disses Pontiac, I go into a never ending depression and eventually commit suicide. It's sad... I know.

[SingleStylish]

Oh... but it does. If somebody disses Pontiac, I go into a never ending depression and eventually commit suicide. It's sad... I know.

[post="24758"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I didn't know it was Pontiac in general... I thought is was just Fiero's!

:P

[Drew Dowdell]

Lets see I can get a:

Jetta with a 4 cylinder and fantastic knobs and a soft padded dash to rest my feet on

or I can get an Impala with V6 and not so bad knobs even though the dash is a little harder on my feet.

For 30k, I can get a V6 Passat fairly loaded...
or
I can get a Northstar Lucerne... even before 2005, I could get a CTS after rebates.

[CARBIZ]

Exactly. An Impala LTZ with leather, power roof and OnSTar, or a base HOnda Accord V-6. Oh, and the Impala has a 1% lease rate. Honda never has that. The Impala rates higher in the quality rankings (JD Powers, of course). Even the Toronto Star said it was better than the Accord. I drive Camrys and Impalas nearly every day. No contest. And I do this for a living.

[bowtie_dude]

Exactly. 
  An Impala LTZ with leather, power roof and OnSTar, or a base HOnda Accord V-6. 
Oh, and the Impala has a 1% lease rate.  Honda never has that.
  The Impala rates higher in the quality rankings (JD Powers, of course).  Even the Toronto Star said it was better than the Accord.
  I drive Camrys and Impalas nearly every day.  No contest. 
  And I do this for a living.

[post="24819"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If you care to go back and read (or reread, in case you missed it the first time) what I wrote, you'll see that I specifically referred to cars prior to the 2005 model year. Thanks for listening. B)

[Croc]

There goes razoredge with his emotions...calling me a GM hater :rolleyes: ...again :rolleyes:

[Enzora]

I didn't know it was Pontiac in general... I thought is was just Fiero's!

:P

[post="24762"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, insulting Fieros in particular sends him into a homicidal rage, making him take others with him before he kills himself.

[Cory Wolfe]

Yeah... Pretty much. :D

[Flybrian]

[Croc]

Fieros are duck-turds :D

[bowtie_dude]

[post="24898"][/post]

:lol:

[Cory Wolfe]

:D

[Croc]

HAHA!! GARY COLEMAN! Made my day...

[CARBIZ]

Bowtie, you may have started the thread but it long ago took off on a life of its own. I was commenting on what Oldsmoboi had said about a 4 cylinder Jetta versus the Impala. His comments are valid even against the '05 Impala. Not everyone wants to make love to their dashboard! I do agree and have agreed that nobody LOVES the '97 to '03 Malibu's interior (or the latest one, either), but the Accord didn't set the world on fire, either. And the Accord was $7,000 (Can) more. PUT A CUSTOM DASH IN, IF IT IS THAT IMPORTANT, AND BUY A PLASMA TV WITH THE DIFFERENCE. Now, it would be safe to say that a younger person wouldn't want to buy a Malibu, but then they probably wouldn't buy an Accord either. I agree that GM should spend a little more time and money on their interiors - and I believe they ARE. The new Impala more than holds its own against the Accord and Camry in terms of fit, finish and appearance. Besides, truth be known, it isn't GM or Honda who is leading the way on interiors, IMO, it is Mazda and Chrysler.

[bowtie_dude]

CARBIZ, Its not about looking at the car and judging it by its own merits. Its about the car compared to the competition. I don't think it says a lot about a car if the only reason its a good car is because its cheap.

[pow]

"Value" is subjective. For instance, I think $30K for a basic 3-series is a small price to pay for a car that shares its engineering with more expensive cars. Sure, you could get a bigger, more powerful, loaded-to-the-gills Camry with leather, electric seats, and plastiwood, but I think stability control, build quality, structural integrity, curtain airbags, and customer care are worth more. At the end of the day, I'd take a well-built car that I'd be genuinely happy to spend time in, over something that'll leave me reassuring myself that the extra "goodies" were brilliant. Where do I think GM fits in? I think most GM products are priced competitively, but they're not the smashing deals a few have made them seen, equipment-wise. I don't know where CARBIZ got the $7K CDN difference, but a similarly spec'ed Accord EX V6 ($27,850) is cheaper than an Impala LTZ w/ moonroof ($28,430). What about me? I'm willing to sacrifice the ~40 horsepower and get myself a smaller engined, equally well-equipped, but "nicer" 2.0T Passat. Edited October 6, 2005 by empowah

[turbo200]

Yo Turbo you got something to say about me spit.

A "few of the others here", must be me so spit it out.

You started your post with a anti name calling spew, then you finished it with comments about cheerleaders and "showing weakness". I have no weekness and if you and the croc want to come around degrading folks and their cars take what ya get.

Ya want to call us weak, cheerleaders, and theres been others but I dont have the time. Yet the post starts with poster saying the cars are totally crap, substandard. If I get pissed about this it is because I was just called "substandard". Do we need more fighten words ? Then you want to cry and attack and degrade because some of us stand up and say bull?.....now we are showing weakness? Because we say they are not crap in a direct responce to a "crap" statement....now that means we are just saying they are not crap ?  OK..... maybe this will help, my H and C bodys are the most excellent of cars ! I hope this helps clear the air some.

Man you might better start your own car company because you might just be more of all that than your Toyotas.

I to have spent much time around cars and truth is most of them are just man made junk. Anything steel can be broken, anything !!!!! There made to last 4 years for origional buyer and that is it. I used to drive Toys Hondas, VW's, Datsun's, then I found my beloved H bodies........must have been one of my "weak" moments right ? Unlike some here I actually have a licence, buy my own cars, pay my own bills and am on more than my second car and have spent countless hours doing all my own mechanical work as well as much restification of rusty undercarraiges, truck frames, various sheet metal work, ect. I have countless hours into removing plastic dash panels and door panels, I hate plastic but everyone is using it and has been for decades.

So Im a weak, yesman, cheerleader but Im still waiting to hear
What about that Crapaliar ?
Im still waiting to hear about what made any of my 86,90,or 97 H/C bodies substandard ?
Im looking forward to any direct comments to BLu and others that have pointed out problems with other cars.

the best that ever gets pulled from the hat is "high tec" engine spew and "interior materials" or "interior layout" yet I have signs of weakness ?

Its been so obvious that only way to get you guys happy is to put the exact Honda interior in each and every GM, then if only we would buy our engines wholesale from Japplant.com you will finally be happy. Yet you support your constant degrading of GM here on the fact that diversity of opinion is great. Yet we can not have our opinion when in fact we do actually drive the cars in question  :unsure:  Its just so confusing :blink: 

Till you and croc and the other GM haters can come to grips with the fact that some of us here do drive GM's and some like myself have drivin and owned many GMs and have complete satisfaction with them..........back off ! Or am I to assume your insistance is some form of weakness :o ?

I think Toyota and Honda should hire you and croc to go do their promoting because that is exactly what you come here to try to do. Have you seen the commercial of the salesman that put customer in car and says "you dont want to buy a car here "..........well thats you and croc and quite a few others. Its so nice to spend time with ya.

:CG_all:   :unsure:

[post="24736"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

it's a whole new ballgame and GM isn't cutting it. that's why they are losing market share and that's why they are crossed off of so many shopping lists. that's why even when there are huge massive programs going on, Toyota is still winning market share and showing sales increases, while GM needs massive profit-cutting image-hurting sales programs to drive increases. Why couldn't they have worked harded back in 2000 when we all saw it coming here, the Japanese were creating bars so significanly higher than what GM had, yet they shot low again with cars like the Malibu and Ion, and even Cobalt now. It's thier own fault.

Why is Toyota doing so well? Is the whole country against you, razor? Don't be ridiculous, their freedom of choice led them to make both rational and emotional decisions against GM, not you. Still, many others make both rational and emotional decisions to purchase GM [less emotional]. The problem is thier's not enough people making that decision. According to me, they have no one else to blame but thierselves.

The problem has been with the product. Cars like the HHR, Impala, Cobalt are starting to show a competitive edge at GM and some are better executed than others. As long as they keep this up, and they will, sales will go up.

Read this forum, read what evok has to say, read Hey Now's post about "How Many Body Blows". Things are much worse at GM than you or I want them to be. These products may be too little too late; if GM had listened to ME back in 2000-1 when I was saying it on these boards, and lots of others here too, they wouldn't have these problems now. It took them more time and more drama to go through to truly understand they needed to let the designers do thier work.

blindness and loyalty will only keep you in the dark.. Edited October 7, 2005 by turbo200

[capriceman]

i drove a 90 bonnivile and it sucked ass well i dindnt help it had 160,000 miles on it but i rattled and backfired but it was clean on the inside and out not to diss you BV ^_^ :D

[CARBIZ]

I am guessing that a lot of the arguments going back and forth across this board may be falling based on certain demographics. I was raised with American cars: my family owned a couple Chevys, Pontiacs, a couple big Chrysler's. We were never Ford fans, although my father did trade his '69 Chrysler 300 in for a Ford LTD and hated it. Big, heavy American cars. Huge trunks. Big V-8s. Automatics. Power steering. My first car was a (then) 12 year old '67 Dodge Polara. Against this backdrop, my stepfather bought a '79 Datsun 510. Cute, but an oddity. I remember a classmate getting a 200SX for his birthday. Everybody else wanted Firebirds. Anybody who bought a Datsun, Toyota or Honda in the late 70s were either poor, college students or eco freaks. Unfortunately, a lot of those college students are now professionals and base all of their car buying decisions based on certain obvious differences between their 1980 Datsun and their parents' 1980 Buick. Then the snobbery started in the '80s. A friend's parents gave him a 1984 Delta 88 and he was depressed - his friends all had Mercedes! As a Canadian paying $1+ a litre, I understand the need for smaller, fuel efficient vehicles. I don't understand the SUV phase and I own a boat! Even as a younger man, I understood the difference between VALUE and BS. In 1991, I spent 6 months trying to decide what to buy. I looked at the then new Thunderbird SC, the Toyota Previa and even the new Chrysler minivan, because I wanted power, safety and utility. The newly redesigned Caprice wagon won out. Yeah, the Previa had a cooler dash. But the Toyota engine was small and ABS was an expensive option. The T-bird was gorgeous, but the supercharger kind of scared me and the back seat was kind of small. The Caprice had a driver's air bag, ABS, a gutsy V-8 and a plethora of features, like auto headlights. After you have bought quite a few cars, after you have witnessed the ebb and flow of the auto business, after you have lived through dozens of dozens of friends and relatives buying choices, then you are better able to make observations, based on reality and facts, not hyberbole and conjecture. I suspect many younger people have been drinking the Toyota and Honda kool-aid. I am not saying that Toyota's are bad, just that they are not as good as people are led to believe. Ditto for Honda. But Toyota and GM are different. GM is an American car company. It builds cars for Americans. Bigger. "Mushier" power steering. Softer suspensions. Is that a bad thing? No. Does the average consumer give a shit if their car will do 6 seconds 0-60? No. But the car critics do. And they pass their biases down in their write ups and the average consumer is influenced by that. If you are raised on tiny 4 cylinder ecoboxes, maybe you will have more of an affinity for Honda. If not, you will appreciate the strengths and value of GM.

[Croc]

I've been rained on GMs, and I still want my cars to drive well!

[Sixty8panther]

I LOVE my '84 Datsun and it was a very forward thinking car for its era. Independant rear suspension with LSD optional, 4-wheel disk brakes and electronic fuel injection on a model that came out in the late 70s. However the car is proof that a typical Japanese car does not have a huge edge over an American one from the same era. I mean that's p[lenty of nice American cars that cost $12,200 like my Datsun Maxima and are still on the road, but sad to say the last of the RWD Datsuns are a scarce comodity. I still see '84 Firebirds, '84 Caprice Classics and Oldsmobile Cutlasses on the road... Japanese cars ahev only ogne DOWNHILL as of late, Safety and technology may have progressed but the Japanese are resting on their laurels WAY too much. <_< And I firmly believe that the Japanese cars will CONTINUE to rust like the little tin can shitboxes they are. I remember in the mid 90s when I said to my dad as a little kid that the newer Hondas & Toyotas look more substantial and solid but my dad, always the cynic said he wouldn't hold his breath... well sure enough I see plenty of rotted out '95 4Runners and '96 Accords. Certainly a much higher percentage than the typical American car.

[Croc]

As much as the 70s and 80s Japanese cars rusted, the Americans had a few rustbuckets too. Cancer-mobile Vega, the X-bodies, and the Eldorado/Toronado/Riviera of that period. That's just GM. Ford and Chrysler in particular had some rusties as well. Anything without galvanized steel tends to rust, and galvanized steel did not become standard fare until the mid 1990s.

[Cory Wolfe]

I've been raised Pontiacs... :unsure: :P 4cyl ones, at that. :D Hey Sixty8, think your sig is big enough?!?!? Holy hell... :blink:

[Satty]

Hey Sixty8, think your sig is big enough?!?!? Holy hell... :blink:

[post="25583"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Only one mention of the Camaro, so there is room to grow.

[Sixty8panther]

Hey BV, I was going to use this for a sig originally. http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons//AH-HA_wink.gif

[Cory Wolfe]

Well, just keep in mind that some people who visist this site is on a crappy 56k modem with dial-up... and some even have shitty computers. I like to view sigs, but sigs of that size is just riliculous.

[razoredge]

There goes razoredge with his emotions...calling me a GM hater :rolleyes:

...again :rolleyes:

[post="24845"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

well I searched hard for a quote where you expressed your feelings about GM cars quite well but either I was searching the wrong thread or, puff gone without a trace.

[razoredge]

As much as the 70s and 80s Japanese cars rusted, the Americans had a few rustbuckets too.  Cancer-mobile Vega, the X-bodies, and the Eldorado/Toronado/Riviera of that period.  That's just GM.  Ford and Chrysler in particular had some rusties as well.  Anything without galvanized steel tends to rust, and galvanized steel did not become standard fare until the mid 1990s.

[post="25547"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

At least since 1986 Buick and Oldsmobile H & C & E bodies have been fully galvanized. My 90 Regal W was also fully galvanized.

Thanks for the info :lol:

[Croc]

Hmmm, well most of my posts were on the old forum...

[Sixty8panther]

Okay, I was joking but anyway... I mean the dimensions of that pic are 594 x 894. It was meant to be absurdly big.

[turbo200]

I am guessing that a lot of the arguments going back and forth across this board may be falling based on certain demographics.
 



  If you are raised on tiny 4 cylinder ecoboxes, maybe  you will have more of an affinity for Honda.  If not, you will appreciate the strengths and value of GM.

[post="25524"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree with the demographics points. Who are the ones who can't bring themselves to objectively admit that other cars, besides those from thier favorite companies, might have virtues and qualities?

I am open to praising American engineering and American design when I feel it is deserved. Does everybody else feel the same about cars from across the pond? I know you are all trying to be patriotic, but patriotism goes so far before you start looking like you don't really know what you're talking about.

A simple admission that there are cars from all over the world with desirable build and desirable content and desirable design is more than enough. If they're not your preference, fine. I would rather have a C6 Z06 some days and other days I'd rather have a Porsche 996, oh well. Most days my favorite car is a BMW M3 convertible. That doesn't mean I don't love a nice Cobalt SSSC or that I like to see new Impalas or HHRs on the road.

Maybe it's those that were raised solely on American cars that should open their eyes more?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Maybe it's those that were raised solely on American cars that should open their eyes more?

[post="26107"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Couldn't agree more, i like GM, i got a GM vehicle... but im not blind to other manufactures vehicles. Some people just begin to sound stupid when they are defending some GM cars.

[Croc]

Couldn't agree more, i like GM, i got a GM vehicle... but im not blind to other manufactures vehicles. Some people just begin to sound stupid when they are defending some GM cars.

[post="26117"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Tell me about it :rolleyes:

I mean I buy American whenever I can, only exceptions being when the competition is clearly and decidedly better. Take beer, for example. Sam Adams is the only domestic I really like, and even then if given the choice I go for Corona.

[ocnblu]

I had a new '86.5 Nissan Hardbody 4X4, it was a good truck except it had poor corrosion protection... stone chips on the hood rusted and grew to the size of quarters before I got rid of it after 3 years. I had a new '92 Golf GL 2 door. It was a good car except the clutch linkage fell apart once and I had to jury rig it to get it running. I was an hour from home. I had 2 new '98 Beetles. The first, a sharp silver one, had the loudest squeal in the brakes I've ever heard... it was embarrassing to be the center of attention with people ogling the car for being cool looking... until I had to stop. The second Beetle was a total POS. It overheated the second day I had it because the engine cooling fan wasn't plugged in from the factory. The hood got so hot the VW emblem flew off at 60 mph on the highway... all I saw was a flash... the diagram on the shift knob fell off. I sold it at a profit after 3 months and bought an S-10 ZR2. It was ok, kinda rattly. When I crawled over a small incline and over a curb at like 1 mph, the shock mount welded to the frame in the rear snapped off... LIKE A ROCK.

The longest I ever kept a vehicle was my new '94 S-10 regular cab 4X4... 4 years and 125k HARD miles. Things replaced: clutch throwout bearing, alternator, exhaust, and tires, once.

We've had some very hard rain over the last 2 days here. My Colorado leaks water somewhere... the headliner gets soaking wet at the top of the left A-pillar. I haven't seen this because it's usually parked in the garage, so it's not out in the weather all the time.

I know GM has problems, but all-in-all, I prefer them for their overall goodness. Edited October 9, 2005 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

Yeah, I checked all that. Not sure if it's the top corner of the windshield, or an open seam at the drip rail flange. It's annoying though. At least the fuzzy headliner hasn't allowed it to drip onto my knee.

[ocnblu]

Yes, remember, I work in a bodyshop, I know about the door bending trick. It's still under warranty, I need to run it through the proper channels. It has to be approved by the Chevy service manager before I can open an R.O. I just noticed it yesterday. Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate the suggestions, WMJ! :)

[ocnblu]

Good Lord, WMJ. Nah, we have to be better than that. We have DRP contracts with like 15 insurance companies, and a couple of Nazi production managers who keep an eye on everything. Plus we give everything a final check before we call the customer. That's not to say no customer has returned a socket set or a pair of pliers. We try!

[pow]

ocn, speaking of bodywork, our Passat got back from the body shop a while back, after being in a frontal collision, and the quality of work performed was terrible. I was annoyed at first, but ended up not doing anything about it; I was too busy to undergo the process of getting it redone. They did fix some of the "minor" issues (missing/loose ext/int trim, door handle fell off, sidemarker fell off, missing hoses, missing belly pan, poorly fit engine compartment molding, etc), but the body panels are still poorly fitted.






Based on your experience, is it unreasonable to have them make it look new again? Why are gaps and unevenness there? Is it because there's still some damage underneath, which won't allow the panels to fit properly?

[rearden82]

I agree 100%. I see too many people blindly defend GM and make excuses or try to deny their shortcomings. In most cases, GM's failures have nothing to do with consumer ignorance or media bias. It's because a lot of their cars just plain suck. I had a 2002 Malibu rental car for a few weeks. Compared to the Camry, Accord, or any other modern sedan, it was a pathetic joke. Crappy interior, cheap-looking exterior, the gearing was a terrible match for the engine, significant torque steer despite not having much torque, and the absolute worst handling of any car I've driven. It was completely uncompetitive. And the fact that they keep rehashing the ancient W-body platform while all the other car companies keep developing new platforms shows that GM's "it's good enough" menality is still alive and kicking. It really doesn't matter that they keep refining and tweaking it in the marketplace--the competition can say their cars are new from the ground up; GM can't. My dad bought an '04 Kia Optima in late 2003, so he's had it for 2 years now. He has not had one single problem with it. The fit and finish inside and out is flawless. Although the interior trim isn't the most expensive stuff around, it looks very attractive and is well-made. Even the inside of the trunk is thoroughly trimmed with nice materials. The impression I get is that companies like Hyundai/Kia are really trying hard to impress customers, whereas GM's mentality is "we have enough loyal customers, they'll keep coming back, so why bother going the extra mile?" That mentality is why their market share has taken a nosedive over the past several decades. I will say one thing that shows some major bias though--when GM does something innovative, it's usually either lambasted or ignored. For instance, the Riviera and Toronado had touchscreens controlling many of the car's functions back in 1986. The media hated it. Same with the digital dashes that were commonplace. But now that the imports are JUST NOW using similar touchscreens, it's perfectly fine. And I've seen no complaints about the digital speedometers on the Aerio and Civic. Most every article I've seen mentioning new engines with displacement-on-demand makes a cheap shot at Cadillac for its failed V8-6-4 from 25 years ago. GM took the risk of developing the system before the technology to reliably control it really existed. Now that it's not so much of a challenge with modern engine controls, everybody else is doing it. Of course that part never gets mentioned. So overall, I'd say that GM's problems are about 90% their own fault, and 10% unfair bias.

[ocnblu]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Asian imports also rebody their platforms at least once... I think the current Camry is a rehash of the previous platform.

[pow]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Asian imports also rebody their platforms at least once... I think the current Camry is a rehash of the previous platform.

[post="26384"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, the current Camry was based on an all-new platform. The previous two generations, however, weren't.

[CARBIZ]

Rearden - total biased shit. I rented a Camry in 2003. At the time my daily driver was a 2003 Malibu. When I picked the Camry up at the airport, I asked my friends in the rental with me, if they liked the car. They all looked at each other kind of wierd, knowing that I sell Chevrolet. I laughed and asked for their honest opinion. They said, yeah, the car was okay. We all discussed the look of the car, ride, etc. But after a few days with it - well, the tranny rolled back on hills. The shifts were obvious. The 4 cylinder was okay in normal driving but don't expect to pass anything. After a couple days with the veihicle, I then posed the question: would you pay $5,000 more for this car than my (Malibu) car? They thought I was joking. The (then) price of a new Malibu (V-6, ABS, etc) was $19,999. The Camry was $25,000. They were stunned. HOnestly, I was never a huge fan of the styling of the last generation Malibu. (Partly because in 1997 it looked too much like the current Camry!); however, to say that it is "pathetic" next to the Camry is just asinine and shows your true biases.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I agree with the demographics points. Who are the ones who can't bring themselves to objectively admit that other cars, besides those from thier favorite companies, might have virtues and qualities?

I dunno... I was raised in a Toyota (Our primary transportation until I was 14) and we still have that car, it used to be my daily driver. Yet I hate Toyota because of their business practices, dull-headache inspiring cars and their destruction of the Big 3.

I am open to praising American engineering and American design when I feel it is deserved. Does everybody else feel the same about cars from across the pond?

Euros yes... Asians no...

A simple admission that there are cars from all over the world with desirable build and desirable content and desirable design is more than enough.

But there isn't.... Honestly, I wouldn't want to own ANY asian car. Besides, us domestic fans haven't been given these "admissions" from the import side in 30 years... In fact we're increasingly chastised and made fun of by fans and people who are supposed to be "professionals" that we are supposed to pay to read.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I agree 100%. I see too many people blindly defend GM and make excuses or try to deny their shortcomings.

You've already given your stance away.

In most cases, GM's failures have nothing to do with consumer ignorance or media bias. It's because a lot of their cars just plain suck.

Pure opinion; not facts

The impression I get is that companies like Hyundai/Kia are really trying hard to impress customers, whereas GM's mentality is "we have enough loyal customers, they'll keep coming back, so why bother going the extra mile?" That mentality is why their market share has taken a nosedive over the past several decades.

I actually do agree there.

I will say one thing that shows some major bias though--when GM does something innovative, it's usually either lambasted or ignored. For instance, the Riviera and Toronado had touchscreens controlling many of the car's functions back in 1986. The media hated it. Same with the digital dashes that were commonplace. But now that the imports are JUST NOW using similar touchscreens, it's perfectly fine. And I've seen no complaints about the digital speedometers on the Aerio and Civic.

Case in point of blatant, overlooked media bais

Most every article I've seen mentioning new engines with displacement-on-demand makes a cheap shot at Cadillac for its failed V8-6-4 from 25 years ago. GM took the risk of developing the system before the technology to reliably control it really existed. Now that it's not so much of a challenge with modern engine controls, everybody else is doing it. Of course that part never gets mentioned.

Just like the Prius failings never get mentioned... Toyota gets "a break" for being innovative.. GM, of course, did not.