Things I'm tired of

[bowtie_dude]

Ok, I know this is a GM fansite and all, but there's one thing we really need to stop. Defending GM cars JUST because they are GM's cars. I've been watching this for a while now, and use to do it myself. But after being inside of my 2001 Crapalier, I've come to a new understanding of what being a GM fan is, and now I'm going to spell it out. You CANNOT pretend that GM cars made before the 2005 MY are as good or better than their foreign counterparts. The 2004 Malibu is a POS compared to the 2004 Accord, a vehicle that was in production for, what? 2 years? Yeah. You CANNOT continue to pretend that GMs marketshare hemorrhage for the past 30 years has been due to the media and American publics hatred of Detroit steel. No, its because for 30 years, GM has built cars that weren't worth their weight in sheetmetal. Why is it that the interior in a $45k luxury sedan is put to shame by interiors in cars half its price? You can yell at publications all you want for bias and prejudice. Its unprofessional and shouldn't matter. BUT, can you really blame them? I can't. As GM fans, its no wonder we're so excited about the upcoming products. No one has ever seen a Chevrolet like the Impala, Tahoe, Cobalt, or HHR when it comes to interior refinement. Buick owners will be shell-shocked by the difference in their 2005 Lesabre and a 2006 Lucerne. And look at the media hurrah these new products are getting! People love the new Impala and HHR. Why? Because for the first time in 20 years, GM has put effort into its new cars and its showing. /rant *prepares to get yelled at* Edited October 5, 2005 by bowtie_dude

[turbo200]

no yelling, you're absolutely right

maybe these should be forum guidelines, or the rules for being GM fans, accept that your favorite car company makes craptacular cars.... :P

I love GM as much as the next guy, but cheerleaders will get them nowhere, and definitely not where I would like to see them go. Toyota's motto should be "Relentlessly pursuing perfection" [I know it actually was Lexus's motto], because that is where they are going. Until we discipline ourselves on how to be like that our cars will continue losing comparison tests.

GM: NO COMPROMISES!!!!!!! Edited October 5, 2005 by turbo200

[bobo]

Amen, bowtie_dude.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Wow, I wonder who this was directed at?

Ok, I know this is a GM fansite and all, but there's one thing we really need to stop. Defending GM cars JUST because they are GM's cars. I've been watching this for a while now, and use to do it myself. But after being inside of my 2001 Crapalier, I've come to a new understanding of what being a GM fan is, and now I'm going to spell it out.

True, but EVERY GM car has it's virtues.

You CANNOT pretend that GM cars made before the 2005 MY are as good or better than their foreign counterparts. The 2004 Malibu is a POS compared to the 2004 Accord, a vehicle that was in production for, what? 2 years? Yeah.

That's purely subjective and on a case by case basis. (EXAMPLE: Basically you're saying that the GMT800s are no better than the Tundra or that the C5 is no better than the Viper)

You CANNOT continue to pretend that GMs marketshare hemorrhage for the past 30 years has been due to the media and American publics hatred of Detroit steel. No, its because for 30 years, GM has built cars that weren't worth their weight in sheetmetal.

So you're saying that there is absolutely NO bias what-so-ever??? And that EVERY car GM has made for 30 years has been trash? The Buick Grand Nationals, Pontiac Trans Ams, Cadillac CTS/Escalade, Saturn SL, etc.

Okay.

You can yell at publications all you want for bias and prejudice. Its unprofessional and shouldn't matter. BUT, can you really blame them? I can't.

Yes because there is a difference between professional reporting and kicking GM in the teeth with sarcastic, imaginary, subjective comments just for the sake of hating American cars.

Besides, Detroit's contribution to the country should be enough for them to at least get a FAIR shake.

And look at the media hurrah these new products are getting! People love the new Impala and HHR.

You're kidding right?

You don't remember all of the discerning and horrible articles on the HHR by the analysts and journalists BEFORE IT EVEN DEBUTED?

You don't remember the Impala being virtually written off by the media during the LA Auto Show press conferences?

The media isn't going to make a miraculous 180 degree turn...And even if they did it wouldn't make up for 30 years of lies and deceit. (Sure GM wasn't at its best then but it wasn't the trash they made it out to be either)

Besides. Last time I checked this was an opinion blog anyway. Doesn't that conquer all?

[balthazar]

No, its because for 30 years, GM has built cars that weren't worth their weight in sheetmetal.

Just as reprehensible as 'defending everything made by GM' is one who whitewashes everything made by GM.

[CaddyXLR-V]

no yelling, you're absolutely right

maybe these should be forum guidelines, or the rules for being GM fans, accept that your favorite car company makes craptacular cars.... :P

I love GM as much as the next guy, but cheerleaders will get them nowhere, and definitely not where I would like to see them go. Toyota's motto should be "Relentlessly pursuing perfection" [I know it actually was Lexus's motto], because that is where they are going. Until we discipline ourselves on how to be like that our cars will continue losing comparison tests.

GM: NO COMPROMISES!!!!!!!

[post="23991"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So Toyota is making a car that can tow 10,000 lbs, beat a Z06 around a racetrack, be more luxurious than a Bentley, seat 10 people, have a bed to haul stuff in, and get 60mpg?
Sorry there is no such thing as perfection. Perfect to you may not be perfect to me. The only thing they are perfecting is how to sell more cars to the general population while making more and more money. They do not make a single car I would want to own. Toyota is good at making everybody believe they make the best cars. Everybody already thinks Toyota is so economical, while they are adding another plant to build more gas sucking SUVs and trucks that cant even match GMs 7 year old SUVs. All because Toyota has 1 50mpg car they are the most fuel effiecient company and cares about saving the planet. GM isnt perfect, but neither is Toyota. I would like to see our country stop looking up to Toyota like some god, is that too much to ask for?

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

So, what exactly is so much better about a Toyota?

Better reliability?

Not really.

Better asthetics?

Sure, but that definately doesn't make their cars appealing.

Better yet, Has every Toyota of the last 30 years been a STELLAR example of engineering and refinement to lust after?

The simple fact is this; Toyota makes LESS appealing cars than GM, Ford and Chrysler with roughly the same quality and roughly the same innovation. The only appeal they have is IMAGE. And that false IMAGE is perpetuated by the media, people who are stuck in the past or either want to ignore the present.

People are conformists... Everyone conforms to something and ANY social psychologist will tell you that most of us have 2 basic needs. The need to be liked and the need to be right. So, by telling people that they are no longer right by buying domestics (reliability, efficiency, etc.) and reinforcing that for 30 years while simultaneously telling people that they are no longer liked because they buy domestic cars (Buy calling them outdated or less intelligent or less stylish) while reinforcing that for 30 years, the media has caused a HUGE surge in import sales simply because people want to CONFORM to what is good without having to develop a new "Schema" ( think stereotype or an automated way of evaluating that stereotype) to think about it in a logical way through "Controlled Processes." Therefore, they become what I commonly refer to as "sheep" because they conform to something just because a supposed "leader" tells them they have to conform to be liked and right.

When they do this and are not satisfied with the car it creates what we call "Cognitive Dissonance" which is a feeling of guilt associated with not doing the right thing. The person knows they shouldn't have bought the car deep down, but to turn back now would be putting their "Positive Self Image" in jeopardy, THEREFORE they begin to justify and find excuses for doing what they did in order to save face. (Prius owners anyone)

If we can take down the media or at least begin to change perceptions of the media (One C&G member at a time) then we can destroy this system and subsequent HUGE lie. THAT IS WHY I PREACH ABOUT THE MEDIA CONSTANTLY

Cognitive Dissonance EXAMPLE: The Heaven's Gate cult (Remember, the people who thought the Hale Bop commet was trailed by a space ship that would take them all to the next realm) went to a telescope shop and bought a high powered telescope in order to see their space ship. When the ship was no where to be found instead of accepting the fact that there in fact WAS no ship, the cult members returned the telescope because they had convinced themselves (Through justification) that the telescope was somehow defective.

[razoredge]

GM has made some great standup products during the last 2 decades. There has been lots of developement. The Asian cars have not been "all that" themselfs. Then could someone please tell me - Isnt the Crapalier a Toyota ? I mean lets take the GM car that most of us here would never consider buying and throw that up like its the defination of a GM product. I just dont know :unsure:

[Croc]

I agree with the first few posts of this thread before it all degenerated by the Cheerleaders.

Edited October 5, 2005 by Croc

[razoredge]

I agree with the first few posts of this thread before it all degenerated by the Cheerleaders.

[post="24051"][/post]

speaking of degeneration here comes the croc of ____ ! He even brought his Asian cheerleader.

Cant realize that in contrast to the haters that post here often there is also the fans. What a croc. So how about that Crapaliar ?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

i dunno... .... FIERO!!! :ph34r:

[CaddyXLR-V]

I agree with the first few posts of this thread before it all degenerated by the Cheerleaders.

[post="24051"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Am I a cheerleader too? GM only has a few cars I would want to own, but thats still a few more than Toyota. I just think people think too highly of everything Toyota does.

[Croc]

Am I a cheerleader too? GM only has a few cars I would want to own, but thats still a few more than Toyota. I just think people think too highly of everything Toyota does.

[post="24078"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No you aren't. You were very objective in your post.

[Croc]

speaking of degeneration here comes the croc of ____ ! He even brought his Asian cheerleader.

Cant realize that in contrast to the haters that post here often there is also the fans. What a croc. So how about that Crapaliar ?

[post="24064"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There's a big difference between "fans" and "yes-men." Of course, knowing you, you're gonna start an argument over this. :rolleyes:

BTW the Asian cheerleader rocks.

[bowtie_dude]

This rant wasn't directed at any one person, but a small group of roaming GM fanboys on this website.

First, please notice that I didn't say anything about trucks or SUVs in my post. The entire rant had to do with GM CARS, not trucks and SUVS.

Second, yeah...so the C5 was an outstanding sports car, lots of bang for your buck. Its ALWAYS been an exception to the GM rule, though its only recently gotten an interior worthy of a $50k car. You'll excuse me for omitting it.

Yes, the media is biased, I didn't say anything to the contrary. And yes, its unprofessional. But honestly, I would have a hard time being optimistic about new GM vehicles after so many years of "Its different this time," not being very different.

How can you sit inside a 98 Accord and a 98 Malibu and tell me that the Chevy is more worthy of your purchase? Its not. It may be just as reliable mechanically, but inside its years behind the Accord. And the same thing goes for the current Malibu vs the current Accord.

[balthazar]

How can you sit inside a 98 Accord and a 98 Malibu and tell me that the Chevy is more worthy of your purchase?  Its not.  It may be just as reliable mechanically, but inside its years behind the Accord.  And the same thing goes for the current Malibu vs the current Accord.

Reliability is objective: car breaks/costs money to fix)
Interiors are completely subjective, and thusly it's only "years behind" based on individual opinion, not facts. Some will prefer one over the other, simple as that.

[bowtie_dude]

How can you sit inside a 98 Accord and a 98 Malibu and tell me that the Chevy is more worthy of your purchase?  Its not.  It may be just as reliable mechanically, but inside its years behind the Accord.  And the same thing goes for the current Malibu vs the current Accord.

Reliability is objective: car breaks/costs money to fix)
Interiors are completely subjective, and thusly it's only "years behind" based on individual opinion, not facts. Some will prefer one over the other, simple as that.

[post="24165"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There's nothing subjective about the glaring differences in the Malibu and Accord.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I'm definately not a "Yes man" (If people are thinking that) I b*tch about dumb things GM does morerso than most around here. Besides, it's not like it matters much.. My posting style certainly hasn't changed in the 4 years I've been on C&G and it certainly isn't going to anytime soon. This isn't directed at anyone in particular.. I'm just defending my name.

[z28luvr01]

I have been in that era Malibu, and I happen to belive it's one of the best designed, most appealing, most underrated GM interiors of that time. Plus they were an excellent value, with the V6 models selling in the mid-teens. The thing is, every time I drive or ride in a Japanese car I'm left wanting more. Based on all the positive attention they get from the media and from the people that buy them, I expect them to be leaps and bounds over the GM vehicles I've had experience with. Yet, when I step out of one, I'm usually left saying to myself, "That's it?? What's the big deal??"

[CARBIZ]

How much are you willing to pay for better looking knobs? The Malibu you are talking about was available for $20k (Canadian), easily $7k less than a comparably equipped Accord of the same era (V-6, ABS, etc.). HOw many times does the Malibu have to kick the Accord and Camry's ass (JD Powers, which takes into account plastics and aesthetics!) before critics get off GM's back? I was never a huge fan of the look of the Malibu, but it was a great seller and proved to be a reliable, cheap to maintain car. I delivered an Uplander to a customer on Saturday. The guy paid $21k, with a DVD, ABS, power everything. He made a few cracks about the fabric around the seats, the way the door slid shut and added that it was nowhere near the Sienna. Agreed, I said, but how much nicer do you want the fabric and door slider to be for TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS more(again, Canadian)? The Crapalier, you so affectionately refer to, was being sold for $12999 for about 18 months. The same Civic would have been $5,000 more. Is that worth it to you for a gutless motor, smaller interior and - oh, nice looking knobs and plastic? I doubt anyone here would argue that GM has been cutting edge in the small and mid-size car segments for five to ten years. The "truck bubble" of the 90s obscured the fact that our cars were starting to lag behind. I think the Cobalt, HHR, Impala, etc. are showing GM's renewed commitment and energy. I am a huge GM fan, but I also have been a big critic of our interiors for the last few years. I nearly wept at the Auto Show in 2001 when I looked at the Civic or Corolla interior, then at the Cavalier. But that doesn't make the car inferior. Chrysler has long proved this by spending the money on the cloth, buttons and door handles while producing some of the sh*ttiest cars on the market! Personally, I find most of the GM supporters on this site to be pretty balanced; it is the Asian car baiters that foam at the mouth whenever their precious Toyota is criticized or whenever someone chastizes them for buying an imported product.

[Cory Wolfe]

Huh... :huh: Croc thinks FOG and Razor are cheerleaders... Maybe Balthazar too. Interesting. Well, besides from his usual problems with everybody... Every post has a point. I do know that most GM vehicles weren't very great during the last few decades. But to say they are total crap is like saying Toyota is total perfection is incorrect. It just isn't the case. I also know that the media wasn't to blame for GM's vehicles then. But to say they are not biased and give each and every GM vehicle a fiar is incorrect. Again, it just isn't the case. Finally... The one who said "Fiero" is going to get his ass kicked. :lol: :D

[Robert Hall]

I have been in that era Malibu, and I happen to belive it's one of the best designed, most appealing, most underrated GM interiors of that time. Plus they were an excellent value, with the V6 models selling in the mid-teens.

The thing is, every time I drive or ride in a Japanese car I'm left wanting more. Based on all the positive attention they get from the media and from the people that buy them, I expect them to be leaps and bounds over the GM vehicles I've had experience with. Yet, when I step out of one, I'm usually left saying to myself, "That's it?? What's the big deal??"

The Malibus of that era just seemed like cheap rental cars inside...nothing special.

[Croc]

Huh... :huh:

Croc thinks FOG and Razor are cheerleaders... Maybe Balthazar too. Interesting.

Well, besides from his usual problems with everybody... Every post has a point. I do know that most GM vehicles weren't very great during the last few decades. But to say they are total crap is like saying Toyota is total perfection is incorrect. It just isn't the case. I also know that the media wasn't to blame for GM's vehicles then. But to say they are not biased and give each and every GM vehicle a fiar is incorrect. Again, it just isn't the case.

Finally... The one who said "Fiero" is going to get his ass kicked. :lol: :D

[post="24219"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I didn't specifically call anyone out.

[Croc]

The Malibus of that era just seemed like cheap rental cars inside...nothing special.

[post="24220"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

BINGO! Now I do like the current Malibu, but once again the interior falls short.

[Sixty8panther]

BD: Sorry bud but I think you're exagerating for effect. Quite a bit actually. You have a point but don't judge all GM products by a 2003 J-car and as far as interiors in $45K GM cars they're NOT worse than Japanese cars costing $22,500. C'mon that's just insulting. My 1997 Caddy STS cost aboout that when new and the interior is on par with anything costing that much from any country. And my buddy's $33,000 1995 Riviera has an interior that is far nicer in every way than a typical $33,000 Jaopanese car. <_< That being said I think we can all agree GM has been firing on 5 of it's 8 cylinders as of late.

[Satty]

Anyone who says the Malibu is a nicer car to spend time in than an Accord obviously hasn't actually sat in an Accord. I think the prime example of a GM interior not living up to its price point is the last Bonneville. Huge gaps, cheap plastics, vents and buttons galore, if those buttons were blanks I'd believe that I was sitting in a J-body. GM is playing catch up and I wish them the best of luck.

[ocnblu]

Question for the group: how many 20+ year old Asian cars do you see on the road? Answer: not many. They all rusted into the ground, or were so expensive to fix they were instead junked.

As crappy as those 80's GM cars may have been, there are many of them still out there running every day. I'd be willing to bet a higher percentage of 20 year old GM cars sold are still on the road than the Asian brands.

[CARBIZ]

DesRosiers marketing did a study in 2000 that proved just that point. There were more pre-1987 American cars on the road than as a percentage sold in any given year than corresponding Japanese imports. Even they admited they were surprised, although they didn't offer up any explanations as to why.

[Satty]

I dont think anybody will deny that older Japanese cars used horrible steel that rusted easily. I want to know in ten years how many 1987-1997 Japanese cars are still on the road, percentage-wise, compared to domestics.

[ocnblu]

We have a Matrix in the shop right now, rebuilding the right front structure after an accident. With the engine and front suspension out, bumper, fenders and hood off and the internal front structure welded up and replaced... I can literally move the entire front end back and forth by hand by grabbing the frame rail. That would scare the hell out of me. I could literally bend the apron piece where the suspension strut bolts up with one finger. :o

[Snate]

I think we've reached the point where there really is no "class leader". Every car has its pluses and minuses because every car was designed to target a different market.

[razoredge]

There's a big difference between "fans" and "yes-men."  Of course, knowing you, you're gonna start an argument over this.  :rolleyes:

BTW the Asian cheerleader rocks.

[post="24097"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So now Im a yes man ????? yup yup yup yup yup yuppy ! yup thats me. :blink:

So what about that Crapaliar and the toyota connection, I know theres one I just dont know what it is.

I dont know much about GM's past small cars. The Baretta's, old Cavaliers and Sunbirds? are just finally fading from site around this area within the last 2-3 years. Im talking a tri city area plus all the surronding hill towns. Nothing really huge but diverse of car choises.

Well the GM's I drive are great and Japs havent had anything in that type of car. I love my cars, because everytime I go sit down, turn the key and drive away I just feel like saying..... "Yes !!"...... B)

as for the Asian cheerleader, lets just say "your easily entertained"

[razoredge]

We have a Matrix in the shop right now, rebuilding the right front structure after an accident.  With the engine and front suspension out, bumper, fenders and hood off and the internal front structure welded up and replaced... I can literally move the entire front end back and forth by hand by grabbing the frame rail.  That would scare the hell out of me.  I could literally bend the apron piece where the suspension strut bolts up with one finger. :o

[post="24518"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Blu ! Your brut, you !

[ocnblu]

Thanks! :)

[turbo200]

This doesn't need to be a bash thread and that's what it quickly has turned into. Our opinions are all slightly different, but I think we can all agree that GM has made cars that were not up to the competition's bar right? If you cannot agree with that, then you are lost in a cloud of loyalty and ignorance to the truth. Drive any Japanese car from the '90's and then drive any comparable American car from the same time frame, and you will see a dramatic difference. I mean DRIVE the DAMN car. Don't just sit in it. Don't just argue with someone driving it about how it feels underpowered. DRIVE IT. I'm done with that. Everytime I try to suggest that to people here, they get all defensive. Defensiveness is a sign of weakness. Sixty8 might have a good thing to say about this. He owns a damn good Japanese car from the MID-80's!!! How is the structure on that car sixty? Pretty damn tight right? Has it given you many reliability problems? As many as the Cadillacs? How's the engine on that baby? Pur like a l kitten? What about the overall feel of the driver controls, the shifter, the steering wheel, the positioning of the seat? Give us your reiview, sixty, as objectively as possible. I know you love American cars and I'd be interested to hear it. As someone else said above, there is nothing objective about the difference in the Accord interior to the Malibu interior, now or then, just sit in a damn one and feel EVERYTHING! Then DRIVE! Look beyond the styling, the badge, and deciper what CAR IS truly there. CaddyXLR, thanks for calling me out on my first post. Let me be clear about that motto of Toyota's I made up. Toyota is on a quest to satisfy the EVERYMAN. Every man in this country has a little bit of that in him, and when they get families it becomes even more prevalent. They are on a quest to dominate the market that cares most about practical things, sophistication, reliability, quality, durability, efficiency. Thier quest has been simple for years and years. What would the everyday man drive? What does he most care about. People have lives beyond thier cars, most people don't want to worry a damn thing about thier cars. Most people don't drive Z06s. Most people just care about getting a good car, something to be proud of, something that will not be looked down upon, and something that is a good deal and perhaps makes you feel like you paid for something "TRULY EXTRA". That "truly extra" thing is what Toyota has been baking into thier cars for a long time now. IT is refinement, quietness, the silky smoothness of the engine, the way everything is pleasing to touch and feel, the way the seats make you feel as if they were orthopedically designed, the way the car holds up SO WELL over SO MANY years, the way the suspension is just so quiet and soft. It's a number of things. I am no Toyota lover. I drive performance cars. But I am an absolute obsessive compulsive perfectionist. I praise what deserves praise and hold no bias. I am neutral but have loyalties. I am damn loyal person, and will fight for what I believe in. However, I am principled and will never compromise in my beleifs. Cheerleaders, swallow this: the more and more you blind yourself to the FACT that GM has made cars that were significantly under the standard of the classleader, the more you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

[Croc]

Well said turbo...couldn't have said it better myself!

[capriceman]

ok but every car has its ups and downs gm has a major down. (like interior) AND PEOPLE DONT BUY CADIVERS (CAVILERS) FOR A PERFORMANCE OR LUXARY CAR! its a comuter rocket just to get u back and forht to work gets good gas milage and is cheap. also to keep miles off of a good car you might have. Thats what being a fan is tho all hoorahs. right! you dont go to you local foot ball team and watch from the vistors stand you "cheer" for them not boo them right? but i do reconize mistakes that GM makes and if some one asks me about a comparo that actullay have facts that "real people need" not like 0-60 times. or amount of hood space you have or suspension travel i will tell pros and cons. Edited October 6, 2005 by capriceman

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

DesRosiers marketing did a study in 2000 that proved just that point.  There were more pre-1987 American cars on the road than as a percentage sold in any given year than corresponding Japanese imports.  Even they admited they were surprised, although they didn't offer up any explanations as to why.

[post="24495"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

And of course it got absolutley NO media attention...

It's all a big lie.... ALL OF IT and it amazes me how controllable people are.

[capriceman]

Cheerleaders, swallow this:

the more and more you blind yourself to the FACT that GM has made cars that were significantly under the standard of the classleader, the more you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

[post="24576"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

<_<

im a cheerleader for GM the do what limits them and besides WHO DO YOU BELIVE SETS CLASS LEADERS? i mean there is so many differnt cars and they all serve differnt purposes. i dont look at a car as its a Class leader i look at and say will it get me to point A to Point B and do "I" like id i dont care what billy bob joe bob driver magizne says.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Our opinions are all slightly different, but I think we can all agree that GM has made cars that were not up to the competition's bar right?

I agree, but they're not all trash.

I'm done with that. Everytime I try to suggest that to people here, they get all defensive. Defensiveness is a sign of weakness.

Trust me... There is nothing weak about me or what I say... If anything I'm offensive and willing to attack at the drop of a hat.

something that will not be looked down upon

And therein lies the problem and the entire reason I gripe like I do.

The media (And for that reason the public) will ALWAYS look down upon domestics no matter how much BETTER they are/become than everything else.

the more and more you blind yourself to the FACT that GM has made cars that were significantly under the standard of the classleader, the more you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Turbo, don't take this personally, but the more and more you buy into the theory that GM is inferior, the more and more you will turn on your beliefs.

As for losing credibility I don't really think I have that problem anyway since most know my style and know not to take everything I type so seriously, but anyway; 1) My rantings are opinion and opinion only most of the time or MY TAKE on certain facts. 2) I say what I feel, support what I'm loyal to and am painfully honest with my opinions (Obvious flaws and all) I really don't care how people view me, I'm not so insecure that I'm afraid to be the black sheep or that I have to have a following in a hobby that I really gain nothing but stress from a lot of the time anyway.

I write what I write to be taken as what it is, sometimes as obvious humor, sometimes as obvious exaggeration and sometimes simply as rants about things I'm passionate on. I don't write to please everyone and give everything that I disagree with fair judgement because if I were to do that then what would be the point of disagreeing with it in the first place?

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

GM hasnt always built the best of cars, but they werent terrible either... some were good, most were sub-par (except trucks, GM has always built excellent trucks)

[CaddyXLR-V]

I still dont see how Toyota is chasing perfection. Because they make their cars to sell to people who only care about getting from point a to b, somehow that makes them chase perfection? There is no such thing as perfection. That is why we have choices. If Toyota is so perfect, why do they have nothing I want to own? Even Honda makes a few cars I wouldn't mind owning, why cant Toyota? Toyota is the last automaker I would like to see be the biggest in the US. I can think of at least 1 car from almost any automaker that I wouldnt mind owning, except Toyota. Toyota is for the people who dont care about cars, and that would not be me.

[daves87rs]

Wow, this pretty sad posting here.. " Feelings...it's alll aabbloouut feeellliiinggss"!" Wow, people gotta get all butthurt about things... :rolleyes: It's all about balance and people. If we all thought alike, this would be a pretty shitty website, know I what I mean? :angry: It's good to hear it from all sides...that is how it is in the real world... <_< If you want to say something-say it! I am a GM fan, but damn, I'm not blind! :blink: Cheerleaders? Asian Baiters? So we name call now? :huh: Maybe some of you need to get a life.... :rolleyes: I not afraid to say what I feel.....

[turbo200]

awesome dave i like your attitude

[turbo200]

GM hasnt always built the best of cars, but they werent terrible either... some were good, most were sub-par (except trucks, GM has always built excellent trucks)

[post="24618"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

and that's really all that i am saying. they have always built decent vehicles that were good "values" in most cases. BUT that just won't cut it in today's CUTTHROAT market

Good enough is not enough when you've got cars like the new Civic that set such high standards. When the going gets tough the tough get going.....the tough gotta get going otherwise GM won't be in the game anymore...

[daves87rs]

awesome dave i like your attitude

[post="24696"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It's funny that I look back to the topic of things they're tired of.... :)

[daves87rs]

and that's really all that i am saying. they have always built decent vehicles that were good "values" in most cases. BUT that just won't cut it in today's CUTTHROAT market

Good enough is not enough when you've got cars like the new Civic that set such high standards. When the going gets tough the tough get going.....the tough gotta get going otherwise GM won't be in the game anymore...

[post="24698"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Very good point there, turbo...

"Value " doesn't always pay the bills...

"Want" does... :)

[turbo200]

I agree, but they're not all trash.
Trust me... There is nothing weak about me or what I say... If anything I'm offensive and willing to attack at the drop of a hat.
And therein lies the problem and the entire reason I gripe like I do.

The media (And for that reason the public) will ALWAYS look down upon domestics no matter how much BETTER they are/become than everything else.
Turbo, don't take this personally, but the more and more you buy into the theory that GM is inferior, the more and more you will turn on your beliefs.

As for losing credibility I don't really think I have that problem anyway since most know my style and know not to take everything I type so seriously, but anyway; 1) My rantings are opinion and opinion only most of the time or MY TAKE on certain facts. 2) I say what I feel, support what I'm loyal to and am painfully honest with my opinions (Obvious flaws and all) I really don't care how people view me, I'm not so insecure that I'm afraid to be the black sheep or that I have to have a following in a hobby that I really gain nothing but stress from a lot of the time anyway.

I write what I write to be taken as what it is, sometimes as obvious humor, sometimes as obvious exaggeration and sometimes simply as rants about things I'm passionate on. I don't write to please everyone and give everything that I disagree with fair judgement because if I were to do that then what would be the point of disagreeing with it in the first place?

[post="24616"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I never said GMs cars were trash. On the contrary, they have consistently been solid vehicles. Here's the problem with this. You are defending them by saying they are not trash. That really sucks, ya know? This company can get it so wrong that here we stand saying they are at least not trash. Couldn't they have shot higher?

GM's cars have always been good reliable transportation. I try to recommend then whenever I can for that particular reason, and also because they are good values. I also encourage anyone who likes the designs GM has to offer. Unfortunately, the reality is to someone who is totally impartial cough cough, C&G needs lessons in this; they will look at everything there is to offer. And if these are the only selling points of the car, well they will look for the best the market has to offer, and will analyze the selling points and make the appropriate decision. IF GM is what they WANT, then all the more power to them!

I, however, will not lie to someone, and will remain neutral, I don't ever tell anyone they made a bad decision, because it was thier choice, and it is their perogative if they find out it was right for them or wrong for them. I'm not referring just to GM here either.

On the defensive thing. Well, I wasn't referring to you FOG, ever. So don't worry about it. I really was referring to a few others and whoever hasn't really done a back to back comparison.

You say the media will always look down upon. I don't know what your situation or environment is, or if your overall kind of a skeptic in many more ways than you think. I try to listen to opinions objectively and really understand what it is everyone is trying to say. The media does not always look down upon GM's products. Well, I can point to a number of magazines/websites that have now changed their ways and are praising some of GMs newest cars, because they are recognizing the real improvements they are.

Edmunds lauded the SRX, the new Impala, the HHR, liked the STS, the C6. MT lauded the STS, Cobalt SSSC, HHR. Road And Track has been a fan of many GMs. Automobile loves Caddys, and a lot more GMs too.

Basically what I'm trying to say is journalists need credibility in order to have an audience. In some extreme cases, their have been journalists who managed to convince thier readers that what they say is always the truth. In some cases, but not nearly as prevalently as you would say so, journalists can insert their bias into testing and debase a car for seemingly no reason.

That doesn't mean I have never been mad at test results or the ultimate opinions of editors on certain cars. But, in general, I think most opinions on GM vehicles are deserved and concise, with a few exceptions.

My bottom line point with that: the media won't always look down on GMs. When GM really gets down to it and develops breakthrough product, the results will be lots more people buying into them.

With your last point about credibility, again this wasn't something I was specifically referring to you, and I don't know why you took it that way. I thought we usually agree, and sometimes we don't, ah well. I was really being very general here, with everyone who doesn't force themselves to be as objective as possible. Too many times, I begin to read a post and just get disappointed with what I am reading because the author's bias is like socking me in face. It's like a punch in the stomach it's so freakin obvious. I just wish they would really enlighten themselves and get over thier prejudice; life would be so much easier if they opened up to choice and all the great things that are out there and remained conscious of that at all times and they got rid of preconceived notions.

[Croc]

Exactly, just because Wal-Mart sells clothes, that say, last a while, are really inexpensive, and aren't ugly doesn't mean that everyone wants Wal-Mart clothes...some people want more stylish clothes, some want clothes that are more fitted, and others only want clothes that last a season or two because they buy new ones all the time.

[ocnblu]

I get to drive just about every reasonable make of car in my line of work. Yesterday I drove an '01 Corolla with power windows that were so clunky (we have to operate all of the systems when we check in a car for collision repair to make sure the customer doesn't say "YOU BROKE IT!" when they get it back) it was unbelievable. I have driven Hondas that were smooth, and I have driven Hondas (late 90's Accord) that the whole dash vibrated at idle, and it got worse when the A/C was turned on. Yesterday I drove a '95 Cutlass Ciera wagon that felt as solid as new (93k miles) except someone ran into the back of it and totalled it. It was still able to lay rubber! (I don't normally drive a customer's car like that, but since it was totalled, I figured wth). I drove a '97 318i with 142,000 miles, and it felt pretty good, but then I've driven BMWs that felt like they were falling apart with much fewer miles.

Working with cars every day, and seeing them wrecked, taken apart, and put back together, I can tell you you can get a good or bad anything.

I prefer GM for ease of repair. Honda is my favorite Asian brand. VWs can be a nightmare to fix. PT Cruisers have a complicated front inner structure that is a nightmare to repair because so many pieces of sheetmetal overlap one another.

Toyotas ain't all that when they get miles on them. They fall apart too. They're all man made, so they cannot be perfect.