Calif. considers bill requiring pets be sterilized

[regfootball]

msn

SAN FRANCISCO - California may become the only U.S. state to require the sterilization of pets under a bill passed by the state Assembly, pitting dog and cat lovers against animal rights activists.

“It’s a horrific bill,” said Maureen Hill-Hauch, executive director of Castleton, New York-based American Dog Owners Association, adding that enforcement of the bill in theory could wipe out California’s dog population.

The bill would require pet owners to spay and neuter their dogs and cats, or face a $500 fine for each animal.

CA is quite communist, aren't they? So much for being liberal.

[ocnblu]

This is an outrage. What a ridiculously intrusive bill. Hopefully, levelheadedness will prevail... but it is California...

[Flybrian]

Great solution.

[aaaantoine]

I guess the people out there want to turn owning a pet into a luxury.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

One question: How the hell do they expect more animals to be made? It's not a matter of fairy dust and good wishes.

You do know what this means, right? As soon as California breaks away from the mainland, they're going to be their own country. They're about 60 percent there anyway.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think the problem would be solved faster if we required all Californians to be spayed or neutered.

[Intrepidation]

I think the problem would be solved faster if we required all Californians to be spayed or neutered.

[jessi_chan]

Ok, here it goes... this is my first REAL post about a heated topic. Which I am a HUGE animal lover! So here are my feelings on this IT IS A GREAT IDEA! First, they are not banning absolutely ALL animals to be spayed or neutered, if you READ it states..

The bill would require pet owners to spay and neuter their dogs and cats, or face a $500 fine for each animal. Breeders, as well as owners of guide dogs, could obtain exemptions.

So that means animals will still be reproducing but only the professionals can do it, because there are stupid people who don't care about their animals and let their animals go around 'mating' with other stupid peoples animals. and BOOM you have millions unwanted puppies and kittens. Another reason this is a good law is because

Supporters say the bill requiring pets to be spayed or neutered is necessary to reduce the population of unwanted pets dumped in the state’s shelters. AND. At least 500,000 animals each year are killed in the most populous U.S. state, imposing an unacceptable “humanitarian” cost on California, said Assemblyman Lloyd Levine, the Democrat promoting the bill.

Those dogs and cats also impose a big expense to the state as keeping and killing them costs $300 million a year, Levine said in a telephone interview.

So would you rather kill over 500,000 animals (just in Cali) a year just because you didn't like the fact that someone is 'telling' you what to do with your animals or would you rather just get your animal spayed or neutered and save thousands among thousands of animals lives. Also since they are going to fine you if you disobey this law would you rather pay like around $200 to have your pet spayed or neutered or pay a $500 fine? (common sense)

So I leave you with some reading material.... (note that it is kinda long, disturbing, depressing, but 100% TRUE) This is in regards to what goes on in the animal "shelters"

"The Shelter"

It is early morning at the Stanislaus County Animal Shelter. And for

you, the animal care specialist, the day opens in minor chords.

You walk to the computer and print out the list of dogs that fill

dozens of the agency's kennels. You sit there with your coffee,

highlighting in yellow marker the ones that have been here for five

days. They've all got a story.

Someone stopped loving him. No one ever loved her. He got too big. She

started chewing on sprinklers. He bit a child. Her owner is out of

town, and the house sitter noticed the dog got out but didn't bother to

call the shelter. Whatever happened, it doesn't matter now: Their time

is up.

You move to the first noisy cage. As you open the door, a few dogs try

to escape, while others cram themselves into the far corners to avoid

you. Everyone on the outside says the animals have no idea what's

coming, but you've seen too much proof to the contrary. Yes, on some

sad level, they know.

You squeeze into the cage and slip your leash, your noose, around the

neck of one. You lead him back to the gate and open it just enough for

you to squeeze through. You pull his head closer to the gate, and get

ready. Then you jerk him out quickly and slam the door so the others

don't get out. He's scared and whimpering, looking around frantically,

but he does what he's told and follows you, faithfully, to the end of

the line.

The killing room is a large, cold place with a small row of metal

cages along one of the concrete walls. There's a large, stainless-steel

table in one corner, holding syringes, needles and bottles of

tranquilizer and Fatal Plus, a solution of sodium pentobarbital that

usually kills within seconds.

As a co-worker readies the syringe, you're kneeling, holding the dog

still, cuffing one leg with your hand. Sometimes you have to fight

them. Sometimes the battle is so fierce, you resort to forcing them

between a gate hinged on a wall, immobilizing them long enough so you

can get the needle in.

But not this time. This one's calm. He trusts you. He even gives you

his paw: He's obviously someone's pet. So you stroke his head softly as

the co-worker finds a vein. Then, just like that, he melts in your

arms. You grab his paw again and drag his limp body to a corner.

One by one, you lay them out on the cement floor. One by one. Though

county records show roughly 15,000 animals are killed each year at the

shelter, it's a number, like eternity, that defies comprehension. But

when one considers the solitary act of each animal death, and the

people who do the dirty work, the number 15,000 comes into better

focus. One death is a tragedy; anything more than that is just a

statistic.

On this morning, and every morning, there will be about 15 to 20 of

these canine executions, not counting the ones that come in throughout

the day that are injured or unadoptable. As you walk to the cages to

retrieve another, the anger swells inside you. Because you know most of

this daily ritual easily could be avoided. Spay and neuter, people, you

say to yourself.

Spay and neuter!

Time runs out on a mother pit bull and her puppies. When she showed up

here last week, your only hope was that she wouldn't give birth before

her five days were up. But she did.

You hardly could stand to watch her care for her pups, licking them,

dragging them around to protect them. Finally, you gave in and fed her

treats, telling her, "That's a good girl."

Because, sadly, you knew all her efforts were in vain. This day always

comes. Once you've got them all gathered in the room, you put her down

first. Because you've learned the babies cry when they're injected, and

that only adds stress to the mother.

One by one. One after another. You stack the singles into piles. You

load the piles into 55-gallon barrels. You push the barrels into the

walk-in freezer, where rows and rows of barrels fill completely about

twice a week. The barrels are emptied into trucks. It's like a factory

here. And they call this a shelter?

The stench of death permanently haunts the air: It's a dull fragrance

you won't forget the rest of your life. Someday years from now, you'll

be served food at a restaurant, and something will trigger the memory

of that awful smell. Just like that, the meal will be over. You wash

your hands incessantly; trouble is, what you're trying to clean doesn't

go away with soap and water. That would take a psychologist, better

than the one you have.

An hour into it, you're nearing the last of the morning's kill. Next

up is an adorable pop-eyed Chihuahua you had thought someone might

claim. Or adopt. You start for her, but then you make a grave mistake:

You look into her eyes. In a flash, your mind acknowledges that this is

a living, breathing thing. Damn dog, now she's under your skin.

Suddenly, you can't bring yourself to do it. Not this one. Your back

yard already brims with the dogs and cats you've personally spared over

the years, and there's simply no more room. So, you sneak her off the

list and move her to another kennel. Your day off is tomorrow, and you

just put it out of your mind. That's all you can do.

Now, through the bars, you spot the big mongrel. You squeeze into the

cage, and he moves away. He's scared and hungry; he's not the alpha

male in this lot, so he hasn't eaten in five days. And who knows what

he went through before he ended up here? So you kneel and call to him

in a pleasant voice. Now he's wagging his tail because he thinks you're

going to rescue him from this awful place.

You get him outside and pet him to try to keep him calm. But he's

excited, jumping up and down, because you helped him out of the chaos.

You're his friend now; he'll follow you anywhere. So you lead him

toward the room and he trots along happily.

But halfway there, something shifts in him. You figure he's starting

to smell that stench coming from the freezer. Yes, on some level, they

know. He starts jerking his neck back, using his front legs to try to

pull you back. The more you fight him, the more he realizes he should

fight. So you drag him the rest of the way.

Once you get him into the room, he's still fighting pretty hard. Your

arms are getting tired. To get him to the table, you both trip over

piles of dead dogs that now cover the floor. Finally, you get him

stopped. The soft talk helps a little, and you're able to hold him

still enough for the co-worker to find a vein. Once it's in, you let

go. He moves away, woozy. They don't always die immediately. He wanders

over to the corpse of another dog, and sniffs it a little before

collapsing onto the floor.

Spay and neuter, people!

Leaving the room, you remember something you wanted to tell a

co-worker. She's working alone in the cat room, putting down several

dozen to start her day. You open the door, but the scene makes you

forget what you wanted to say. There she is, sitting in a corner,

crying, surrounded by dozens of dead cats that litter the floor. You

make eye contact and get ready to say something, but she waves you off.

It's a quick shake of the head that says, "I'm fine; just leave me

alone." So you do. For those who do this for a living, it's mostly

business as usual, life goes on. But there are occasional meltdowns.

Not to mention divorce, denial, alcoholism, nightmares, antidepressants

and all sorts of other ugly side effects.

Walking away from the cat room, a simple question forms in your head,

one that plagues you often throughout your days here: Does anybody care

about animals? Anyone at all?

Inside, you know there are thousands of people, just like you, who

cherish their pets and treat them like family. Or even royalty. Working

here, you rarely see those folks. They take care of their animals.

Instead, you get the people who before business hours drop off a

cardboard box of mangled kittens that were used to train pit bulls to

fight dirty. Usually, they just toss the dead alongside the road

somewhere, but for some reason, someone brought these in. You open the

box to discover all but one are dead, and the only one alive is using

its front legs to crawl toward you because its back legs are crushed.

Or you get the people whose hobby is trapping feral cats and bringing

them to the shelter. Once you asked about strange lines etched into the

stick they use to hold the trap shut, hoping you were wrong. But, yes,

like notches in a gun, that's how they track how many cats they've

captured. It's a game to them.

Or you get the man who brings in three kittens in an ice chest he

placed in his trunk. In the middle of summer. When you open the lid,

most of the horror has played out. You look up and scold him, asking

him what he was thinking. And he shrugs. Not like it matters, he says,

they didn't belong to anyone.

Or you get the people who pull up in a moving van to drop off their

family pet, saying that they can't take the dog with them and that they

were unable to find the animal a home. They drive away, conscious

clear, leaving the dirty work for you. Like you're some kind of

sin-eater.

And to think, you took this job because you wanted to save animals.

Standing there at the kennels, lost in the flashbacks, you ask yourself

again: Does anybody care?

Anyone at all?

A friendly face pops into your mind. Yes, there is one, you finally

remember, trying to cheer yourself up. That poor young woman from the

west side, the one who's been coming by twice a week for the last six

months, looking for her beloved red Doberman pinscher. She keeps asking

you, "How long should I keep looking?" And you keep telling her, "As

long as your heart needs to." Who are you to take away hope?

And now, come to think of it, you did notice a nice-looking Doberman

in the back kennels this morning. Nah, couldn't be, you think. He

disappeared six months ago. But, needing a miracle, you go and check

anyway. You look him over for a while. There is some red in his coat,

but you're not certain.

Cautiously, you have someone call the woman. Be sure to tell her we're

not sure, you say, but let her know we might have her dog. An hour

later, the woman is scurrying through the hall toward the back kennels.

You can barely keep up with her.

I think I hear him, she keeps saying excitedly. She keeps calling out

his name. All you hear is what you always hear: the deafening din of

scores of barking dogs. When you get to the back kennels, a lowered

metal guillotine door is keeping everything outside. So you raise the

door, and 80 pounds of frenetic dog come bounding inside, wildly

running around the cage. You think to yourself, how would he even know

she was coming? Yes, on some level, they always know.

Just like that, this huge dog plasters itself against the chain-link

fence, licking the fingers of a woman who's pressing herself against

the fence, too. The scene is reminiscent of lovers on a beach. It's

him, it's him, she keeps saying. All the while, this enormous dog is

emitting the strangest high-pitched yipping you've ever heard, almost

like a puppy.

Overcome with emotion, the woman sinks to the cement gutter and starts

sobbing into her hands. You sit next to her to offer some comfort.

Then, before you know it, you're right beside her, bawling

uncontrollably. She's crying because her life is complete again. And

you're crying because, after working this job, your life never will be

the same. Because for every animal that leaves with its owner, half a

dozen are hauled off in garbage trucks.

No, you think, wiping away the tears, this is no place for an animal

lover.

I hope now you can see why I believe this is a good law.

[jessi_chan]

I guess the people out there want to turn owning a pet into a luxury.

Yes, I do think owning a pet is a luxury. First, the definition of LUXURY

Definition: - a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cuff links were a luxury not allowed for in his budget

Also take owning a car per say, owning a car and driving the car is not a god given right, it is a luxury. It kind is your right to to own and drive a car but not a NECESSITY.

Trust me I got this speech all the time when borrowing my Aunt's truck to drive around.

[FAPTurbo]

What does this entail for Croc?

[ZL-1]

So.... is Californa taking a new approach to emissions control? :spin:

[thegriffon]

One question: How the hell do they expect more animals to be made? It's not a matter of fairy dust and good wishes.

You do know what this means, right? As soon as California breaks away from the mainland, they're going to be their own country. They're about 60 percent there anyway.

There are usually exemptions for registered breeders. Any animal you adopt from pound will usually be spayed anyway, the intention is to reduce the numbers of feral/stray dogs and cats, which can be an urban nuisance and an ecological and agricultural menace.

[ocnblu]

Mrs. Dodgefan, I think a better way to reduce the unwanted pet population would be to encourage (financially?) veterinary clinics to offer free sterilization procedures to everyday pet owners. It is always better, imo, to offer an incentive to people than to force them into something which has the potential to line the state's coffers through fines. This bill reeks of Naziism.

Not sure if this is somehow sexist, but although it is easier to neuter a male dog (ouch) than to spay a female, I am more apt to advocate spaying. Maybe it's because I prefer to own a female dog or cat, but I also think the procedure changes a female animal's personality less than it does a male. A neutered male dog just loses something that seems essential in his personality, imo.

My little Meggie was spayed. She was the sweetest dog and didn't lose her girlish figure like a lot of spayed dogs do. We've all seen those wide, matronly spayed dogs. Neutered males can get fat too sometimes.

My neighbors had a young female housecat who came in heat and scratched their daughter in the midst of her "fever". They unceremoniously put her outside and she instantly got pregnant. They did take responsibility for the kittens (got them all homes), and then had the little mama cat spayed. She's a good little cat, still outside but doing ok.

[enzl]

As a dog owner for 2 animals I adopted, I really don't have a problem with the law....there's way too many unwanted animals being killed every day.

And, anyone who knows anything about animal training knows a neutered male is a much more docile, happy indoor pet. My two boys are both 'aggressive' breeds and the reason I've never had an issue is because of the 'fix'.

(Oh, and oncblu, 'matronly hips', 'girlish figure'?...I'm thinking you might need help, dude.

[deftonesfan867]

Mrs. Dodgefan, I think a better way to reduce the unwanted pet population would be to encourage (financially?) veterinary clinics to offer free sterilization procedures to everyday pet owners. It is always better, imo, to offer an incentive to people than to force them into something which has the potential to line the state's coffers through fines. This bill reeks of Nazi ism.

Not sure if this is somehow sexist, but although it is easier to neuter a male dog (ouch) than to spay a female, I am more apt to advocate spaying. Maybe it's because I prefer to own a female dog or cat, but I also think the procedure changes a female animal's personality less than it does a male. A neutered male dog just loses something that seems essential in his personality, imo.

My little Meggie was spayed. She was the sweetest dog and didn't lose her girlish figure like a lot of spayed dogs do. We've all seen those wide, matronly spayed dogs. Neutered males can get fat too sometimes.

My neighbors had a young female house cat who came in heat and scratched their daughter in the midst of her "fever". They unceremoniously put her outside and she instantly got pregnant. They did take responsibility for the kittens (got them all homes), and then had the little mama cat spayed. She's a good little cat, still outside but doing ok.

The problem is that you got people who are to f'n lazy to go have it done, even if it's free.

[Robert Hall]

It's a good idea.. my pets are spayed/neutered.. doesn't make sense not to. Now if they would require this for humans, that would be even better, reduce the overpopulation problems..

[ehaase]

This is an excellent idea that should spread across the country. I have two dogs and a cat, all whom I adopted after they were abandoned. It's time to stop this suffering.

[Flybrian]

After reading the details, I understand the argument for the law. I skimmed over the exemption part, my fault.

[CARBIZ]

As with many of these "liberal" laws, the ground swell is coming from the larger urban areas. I live in downtown Toronto. I have a Husky, 11 years old. I had him neutered when he was about 18 months. I had to.

Anyone who knows anything about dogs knows that they are territorial. Before I had my dog fixed, other large dogs (Rotweillers, Dobes, German Sheppards, etc. )wanted to kill him. KILL him. Not fend him off. KILL him. Never having owned a dog in the city before (the last dog I had was on a farm - and those dogs never went to a vet, period), I was shocked. I asked around, and the consensus was that if I had my dog fixed, all would be well.

So I did. And what a difference. Those same dogs that a week before wanted to kill him, now would ignore him. Now that my dog is older, I am having a problem with him: if a younger, unfixed male comes anywhere near him, he snaps at them. If they persist, he attacks them. The circle of life, I guess, but it is very unnerving and has caused me a lot of stress (and spilled coffees!) particularly with new dog owners who don't know that this is normal. I should add that my dog is very calm and friendly. He gets along with all dogs and all breeds, but not young, unneutered males.

In a crowded, urban setting, I am all for these type of laws. Most dog owners are idiots and city parks are crowded. Half the issues non-dog owners have with out of control dogs would disappear when dogs are fixed because it does tend to calm them. In the country, the problem is more to do with young male dogs taking off when they can smell a female in heat - and, boy, can they smell them!

[jessi_chan]

Mrs. Dodgefan, I think a better way to reduce the unwanted pet population would be to encourage (financially?) veterinary clinics to offer free sterilization procedures to everyday pet owners. It is always better, imo, to offer an incentive to people than to force them into something which has the potential to line the state's coffers through fines. This bill reeks of Naziism.

Oh by the way there is programs like that. For example take me and Dodgefan, we found a cat in a parking lot at Petsmart and I didn't wanna let her stay there cause I knew she would get killed or something along those lines, so we took her home, went to our vets got her checked out she was just fine all she had was worms. So then they told us it would be a good idea to get her spayed, I said we would have to do that sometime later cause we did not have the funds right now, they suggested this program that will pay for half or more than half of the spay or neuter sadly I can't remember what that program was called, but all you had to do was inform them of your income, and tell them why they should help you, easy enough? YES, and we were accepted, for a spay it would have cost over $200 we paid like $90. so yeah there is help out there you just have to LOOK. Also about the whole FREE thing, there are also places where you can get it done for FREE. My step grandma teamed up with a vet and they got a small camper and turned it into a vet clinic on wheels, they go around town to town and spay and neuter pets at peoples houses on the spot. For those lazy people who don't get off their asses. So yeah that kind of help IS OUT there. Oh and by the way you think this bill 'reeks of Nazism'? well I guess you did not read that little story I put up... Because if any of this reeks of Nazism that would be these so called "shelters" the way they kill those innocent animals it is like execution camps, it is a very methodical and carried out in a routine everyday manner. So it is Nazism to have them spayed and neutered and save babies from being cast aside and it's not Nazism to have millions of 'unwanted' animals killed EVERYDAY? That does not make sense...

It's a good idea.. my pets are spayed/neutered.. doesn't make sense not to. Now if they would require this for humans, that would be even better, reduce the overpopulation problems..

Yes, I completely agree it makes NO sense what so ever to NOT get your pets spayed or neutered. And if they would do something like this to people that would be good as well, cause then there would not be SUCH OVERPOPULATED places like Lawrence MA!!

This is an excellent idea that should spread across the country. I have two dogs and a cat, all whom I adopted after they were abandoned. It's time to stop this suffering.

Also completely agree it IS time to stop the suffering! And yes I do think it should be spread across the country, Cali is just starting something great!

[aaaantoine]

I guess I don't really have an argument against this... We got our own dog spayed as soon as we found out she wasn't already spayed.

But the other thing is, we got her for free from a shelter. Typical purebred pets cost at least $500. I'm just worried that if this law is strictly followed and becomes the norm, I won't be able to obtain dogs for free in the future. And so, there goes another freedom.

At any rate, they may as well require skin embedded microchips by law, while they're at it. For dogs. Not for humans. Yet.

[ehaase]

I'm just worried that if this law is strictly followed and becomes the norm, I won't be able to obtain dogs for free in the future. And so, there goes another freedom.

It's more important to stop the suffering of homeless dogs and cats than for people to be able to get free or cheap pets.

[ocnblu]

Mrs. Dodgefan, what I was alluding to was the Nazi initiative to sterilize Jews. This bill is too overreaching.

If I buy a dog at a pet store or from a private party, why shouldn't I have the right to possibly perpetuate my pet's line with puppies? What if I want my dog to have a litter? Why should this choice be taken away from me? I may not think of it when I purchase the pet, but somewhere along the line... what if I decide to let my dog get pregnant to a dog of my choice? That choice would be taken away from me if such a law were to pass in my state. I am not a "breeder", with a license or other officiality, nor would I want to go through any process to become one.

I certainly understand and agree with sterilizing dogs at shelters for adoption. Prospective pet owners know this going in. But there are a lot of different situations involved in pet ownership.

What I find cruel is breeding dogs to be fighters, or training them to be fighters. What a horrible fate for the animal.

[Enzora]

Since the ethical debate seems to be covered, I gotta ask, logistically, how the hell do they plan on doing this?

[aaaantoine]

It's a bit too much to proactively enforce. Here's some options.

- Sterilize the animal on site when adopted. The parties that may ask for exceptions may do so at that time.

- Veterinary hospitals that see animals that have not been neutered (and don't have something resembling a spay scar) will inform their owners that it is required by law that their animals be sterilized. Further steps can be taken from there. Not my job to figure that out.

The penalty part, I haven't figured out yet. Maybe if a police officer sees a guy walking his dog, and notices the dog's balls hanging prominently, he can fine the guy on the spot.

[Enzora]

But what if the owners got their dog these to protect his self-esteem?

[FAPTurbo]

But what if the owners got their dog these to protect his self-esteem?

They had those on Penn & Teller's "Bull$h!"

[aaaantoine]

But what if the owners got their dog these to protect his self-esteem?

That strikes me as a very Californian procedure. You got me.

[regfootball]

they are passing the bill in honor of bob barker

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Typical Califiornia liberals.... "Live FREE!!! as long as it's the way we want you to live"

Unfortunately, our government tends to follow California on a lot of it's legislation. If bull$h! like this continues, we'll eventually be regulated into a communist state of living.

What's next California?!?! A limit on how many children we can have?

Then again, most of Cali is made up of pompous, 'control-by shame' fasion and trend ninnies anyway.

[regfootball]

Typical Califiornia liberals.... "Live FREE!!! as long as it's the way we want you to live"

Unfortunately, our government tends to follow California on a lot of it's legislation. If bull$h! like this continues, we'll eventually be regulated into a communist state of living.

What's next California?!?! A limit on how many children we can have?

Then again, most of Cali is made up of pompous, 'control-by shame' fasion and trend ninnies anyway.

hey, that might be an ok law, it would keep them from spawning.

[Cory Wolfe]

I think the problem would be solved faster if we required all Californians to be spayed or neutered.

I simply disagree with this law. Any supporters should be spayed/neutered to see how they like it. It is not our right to impose something like this on another species. It's inhumane.

[jessi_chan]

I simply disagree with this law. Any supporters should be spayed/neutered to see how they like it. It is not our right to impose something like this on another species. It's inhumane.

I'm sorry I don't think it is 'inhumane' to help save lives of innocent animals, I think it IS INHUMANE to have to kill over 500,000 dogs and cats, puppies and kittens every year in just California alone! OK, I didn't think I was gonna have to do this but if you do the math 500,000 times 50 is 25,000,000 animals every year!! Is it really that hard of a concept to grasp?! That is A LOT OF DEAD ANIMALS! And it costs the state of Cali $300 million dollars a year to do this, just think how much it costs for the whole United States! Please just think outside of the box for a min, stop just looking at it as if someone is telling you what to do, but it is a solution to solving a problem....

[Camino LS6]

I really hate California, FOG has it exactly right.

It's very simple: My dog = My decision.

I would never pay the fine and would intentionally NOT nueter my dogs Because of the law.

Funny thing about me, I don't need the government to think for me nor make decisions for me.

It is bad enough that California feels the need to regulate every little detail of its own citizens' lives, but the way that the rest of the nation allows them to export their bad ideas is completely offensive.

California needs to STFU and mind its own business.

[CARBIZ]

Why does every single debate have to automatically turn into government = bad, freedom to do whatever the f%$k I want = good?

Putting a dog or a cat in a condo or house is an UNNATURAL ACT, plain and simple. They were meant to be in the wild, killing small prey - not pining away all day for their Master to come home. Having a pet in the first place is an unnatural act, in the literal sense. In a city the size of Los Angeles, there are literally MILLIONS of pets. I can see the changes within my own city as the animal population increases. Not everyone has the time or the money or the patience to properly train their pets; consequently, there are a lot of out of control animals out there. Then there are the idiots that have no idea how much work a cute puppy/kitten is, and dump them a few weeks after the Xmas holidays.

Currently, in Toronto, this bankrupt city is spending a lot of time "consulting" the public on amalgamating "off-leash" areas in parks. Believe me, there are a lot of people who don't want dogs in "their" parks at all. (Frankly, I'd rather not have "their" kids in MY park, but I suspect I'd be on the losing side of that argument. LOL) I see a lot of stupid pet owners and non-pet people are getting pissed off.

Perhaps the real issue here is why is California getting involved, and not the city councils? I suspect that in a rural or small town setting it isn't an issue at all. In one swanky area not far from me (Riverdale) the local public school let one area of the playground go natural - meaning tall grasses and bushes were allowed to grow. People I have spoken with that live near there are pissed at all the feral cats that have taken roost there; no doubt feeding on the plentiful squirrels in the area.

The greater debate is how can we all learn to get along as our biggest cities hit the tens of millions? Tempers flare easily and people are too busy minding each other's business, to be sure, but at the same time there is a big disconnect between responsibility/know-how and actions.

Boys and girls, we had all better get used to more government intervention, not less. The average person is dumb and lazy. Either we sterlize them (and that is an interesting debate!) or we minimize how much they can ruin society for the rest of us.

[Camino LS6]

Why does every single debate have to automatically turn into government = bad, freedom to do whatever the f%$k I want = good?

Because freedom is under a constant and broad-based attack by governments at all levels, and the only way to oppose it is to oppose it.

Perhaps the real issue here is why is California getting involved, and not the city councils? I suspect that in a rural or small town setting it isn't an issue at all.

Exactly.

The greater debate is how can we all learn to get along as our biggest cities hit the tens of millions? Tempers flare easily and people are too busy minding each other's business, to be sure, but at the same time there is a big disconnect between responsibility/know-how and actions.

The answer is a combination of birth control and education.

Boys and girls, we had all better get used to more government intervention, not less. The average person is dumb and lazy. Either we sterlize them (and that is an interesting debate!) or we minimize how much they can ruin society for the rest of us.

I flat refuse to "get used to it", though the sterilization idea is tempting.

[enzl]

I'm not sure what the issue here is.

I think almost all Vets and most trainers will tell you that spaying/neutering your animal is a humane act, for everyone involved.

Cali is only setting up a system where people who choose not to do so can be held accountable when something goes wrong.

With all due respect, unless you live somewhere that your dog can run free for miles without bothering anyone, I can't see a valid reason, other than anthropomorphy (sp?) to look at it as a bad thing for your animal or you.

[Turbojett]

hey...hey...why so much hate towards Califoirnians in general? It's not like I got together with all my homies and penned the damn thing ourselves.

Seriously, it's just a bill. It's not a law, and yes we have a lot of very kooky, ultra-liberals (borderline pinkos) that routinely spout rubbish like this, but it rarely ever goes anywhere.

However, we do have a large stray overpopulation problem. Spaying and neutering pets is a great idea...

but it doesn't need to be a law.

[Camino LS6]

hey...hey...why so much hate towards Califoirnians in general? It's not like I got together with all my homies and penned the damn thing ourselves.

Seriously, it's just a bill. It's not a law, and yes we have a lot of very kooky, ultra-liberals (borderline pinkos) that routinely spout rubbish like this, but it rarely ever goes anywhere.

However, we do have a large stray overpopulation problem. Spaying and neutering pets is a great idea...

but it doesn't need to be a law.

That's just the point exactly, it doesn't need to be a law.

BTW: I hate the state and its legislative tendencies, not Californians in general. I also hate the undesreved significance placed on ideas that originate in California. Just because one state chooses to do something shouldn't mean that the rest of us need to follow like a bunch of sheep.

I'm glad that there are 50 states, the way I see it that's 50 chances to get it right.

[ocnblu]

You tell 'em, Camino!

Stay the hell out of my bedroom, and stay the hell out of my dog's bedroom!

[Camino LS6]

Stay out of my garage as well. :AH-HA_wink:

[Turbojett]

Stay out of my garage as well. :AH-HA_wink:

That I'll drink to.