Principle Problem: Resale value

[Jason]

Well, time finally ran out. I was hoping to hold out until the Astra came out before trading my '03 Ion but the repair bills were starting to mount. The interior was showing a lot of wear early on but in the last year I've been overwhelmed with mechanical problems totaling almost $2000. That car was just not very well put together.

I've seen a lot of drooling over horsepower and size but it seems no one at GM wants to build the car I want to buy. I need a small sedan that gets decent fuel economy and is comfortable without costing an arm and a leg.

Not wanting to wait any longer I drove the current Ion drawn in by a 0% interest offer. It really isn't much better than my '03 in terms of comfort though it appears as though the interior isn't done as cheaply. Compared to the Corolla I bought its powertrain isn't as smooth but it is substantially more powerful. I was disappointed in the Ecotech's fuel economy but I do miss its power for passing. I find myself downshifting a lot more in the Corolla.

What really did the Ion in for me though was the resale. My '03 with 90,000 miles was worth $2,000 to the Saturn dealer who was trying to sell me a new Ion. I talked him up to $3,000 but that seems like nothing. The Bluebook trade number was $3,500. A similar '03 Corolla? $6,500.

I remember my first gen SL1 and second gen SL2 had great resale numbers and the SC2 I had was sold at a substantial amount to a private buyer (they were pretty fine looking after all). With all that was wrong with the Ion in too many people's eyes I just couldn't plunge into another one.

Something I've noticed about Asian and European small cars is that when you buy one that sells well overseas they use more upscale materials. I assume that is because smaller cars are more popular in those markets while in the US the automakers seem to be saying that if you want comfort you need to move up to a bigger car with a bigger engine, worse fuel economy, and a higher profit margin. Will we ever get some nicer, smaller cars?

I drove the Aura while I was at the dealership. The fit and finish is every bit as good as any car I drove in its class. I didn't drive a BMW or anything like that but the thing was a polished as any Camry or Accord. It looked like a better value too if you compare reasonably equipped models and their prices. Hopefully the durability is there as well. Is that trend starting in the US? Is Saturn at the forefront of it (at least for a domestic automaker) with its Opel imports? Will that ever trickle into the smaller car segment? Here's one buyer who hopes so.

[Intrepidation]

You could have at least bought a Civic or a Maxda3.

The Ion is not a great car, everyone knows it, the Atra should be a lot better (and sexier).

I do understand you plight about resale value. I've seen mid-90's Corollas command prices as much as 3 grand (which I would never pay for).

Edited June 8, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Drew Dowdell]

How much did you get taken for on the Corolla?

In reality, you generally end up paying about the same car for car, feature for feature. The Japanese imports hit you for the money up front, the domestics hit you in the rear. That is... you pay more for a comparable Japanese vehicle, but you get higher resale value. You pay less for a comparable domestic vehicle, but you don't get much in resale. Is there really much difference paying $15,000 for an Ion getting $3,000 on trade and paying $18,000 on a Corolla and getting $6,000 on trade? Either way, you paid $12,000... but with the Corolla you paid interest on 18k instead of paying interest on 15k from the Ion.

This is subject to change though as the domestics get their mojo back and stop offering big discounts to move cars.

[Jason]

You could have at least bought a Civic or a Maxda3.

Honda is awfully proud of their Civics. I looked at them. I still want to be able to move more than one other adult around which ruled out the Mazda. All 3 were actually smaller than the Ion. The Corolla was the best bet for my needs. The Civic was sporty but not as ecnomical and too expensive. I don't care much for Mazda's reputation beside Mazda practically being a Ford. My dad was upset his son bought a Toyota. He'd have shot me if I'd bought anything associated with Ford.

I ended up paying $16,580 for the Corolla. I got the S model with a manual (to be honest, my love of shifting gears will always hurt my resale a little....but it also keeps my girlfriends from driving my car!) I would have gotten the Ion for about that amount or a little more (Ion 3 Sedan, manual, GM discount). I was actually surprised. It may be the value of the dollar or maybe just that the Corolla is also at the end of its run (the new model is due to arrive next summer). I expected it to cost more and I even got it at 2.9% for four years. A comparable Honda was almost $20,000 though and I don't know about the Mazda (didn't give that one serious thought).

I agree that all these incentives are killing the resale of domestics. So far GM is resisting the temptation to use them on their newer models. I think they'd do anything to get rid of the Ions though.

Edited June 8, 2007 by Jason

[Oracle of Delphi]

Well, time finally ran out. I was hoping to hold out until the Astra came out before trading my '03 Ion but the repair bills were starting to mount. The interior was showing a lot of wear early on but in the last year I've been overwhelmed with mechanical problems totaling almost $2000. That car was just not very well put together.

I've seen a lot of drooling over horsepower and size but it seems no one at GM wants to build the car I want to buy. I need a small sedan that gets decent fuel economy and is comfortable without costing an arm and a leg.

Not wanting to wait any longer I drove the current Ion drawn in by a 0% interest offer. It really isn't much better than my '03 in terms of comfort though it appears as though the interior isn't done as cheaply. Compared to the Corolla I bought its powertrain isn't as smooth but it is substantially more powerful. I was disappointed in the Ecotech's fuel economy but I do miss its power for passing. I find myself downshifting a lot more in the Corolla.

What really did the Ion in for me though was the resale. My '03 with 90,000 miles was worth $2,000 to the Saturn dealer who was trying to sell me a new Ion. I talked him up to $3,000 but that seems like nothing. The Bluebook trade number was $3,500. A similar '03 Corolla? $6,500.

I remember my first gen SL1 and second gen SL2 had great resale numbers and the SC2 I had was sold at a substantial amount to a private buyer (they were pretty fine looking after all). With all that was wrong with the Ion in too many people's eyes I just couldn't plunge into another one.

Something I've noticed about Asian and European small cars is that when you buy one that sells well overseas they use more upscale materials. I assume that is because smaller cars are more popular in those markets while in the US the automakers seem to be saying that if you want comfort you need to move up to a bigger car with a bigger engine, worse fuel economy, and a higher profit margin. Will we ever get some nicer, smaller cars?

I drove the Aura while I was at the dealership. The fit and finish is every bit as good as any car I drove in its class. I didn't drive a BMW or anything like that but the thing was a polished as any Camry or Accord. It looked like a better value too if you compare reasonably equipped models and their prices. Hopefully the durability is there as well. Is that trend starting in the US? Is Saturn at the forefront of it (at least for a domestic automaker) with its Opel imports? Will that ever trickle into the smaller car segment? Here's one buyer who hopes so.

One buyer GM lost! I'll let y'all figure out why!

[aaaantoine]

The Cobalt is generally considered far superior to its Delta platform mate. Have you considered the Chevy, at least?

[Jason]

The Cobalt is generally considered far superior to its Delta platform mate. Have you considered the Chevy, at least?

I did like the Cobalt coupe but the sedan just didn't look nearly as good to me so I didn't give it serious consideration. I just need easier access to the back seat than a coupe can ever offer (even a quad coupe). Plus the Chevy dealer here in town and I don't get along very well. One thing I always liked about Saturns was that I walked into the dealership and bought the car rather than feeling like I was talked into buying the car. Anyone who has bought a Saturn knows what I'm talking about. The Chevy guy here in town is an expert salesman/bully so I don't give him my business.

[Intrepidation]

How much did you get taken for on the Corolla?

In reality, you generally end up paying about the same car for car, feature for feature. The Japanese imports hit you for the money up front, the domestics hit you in the rear. That is... you pay more for a comparable Japanese vehicle, but you get higher resale value. You pay less for a comparable domestic vehicle, but you don't get much in resale. Is there really much difference paying $15,000 for an Ion getting $3,000 on trade and paying $18,000 on a Corolla and getting $6,000 on trade? Either way, you paid $12,000... but with the Corolla you paid interest on 18k instead of paying interest on 15k from the Ion.

This is subject to change though as the domestics get their mojo back and stop offering big discounts to move cars.

[enzl]

How much did you get taken for on the Corolla?

In reality, you generally end up paying about the same car for car, feature for feature. The Japanese imports hit you for the money up front, the domestics hit you in the rear. That is... you pay more for a comparable Japanese vehicle, but you get higher resale value. You pay less for a comparable domestic vehicle, but you don't get much in resale. Is there really much difference paying $15,000 for an Ion getting $3,000 on trade and paying $18,000 on a Corolla and getting $6,000 on trade? Either way, you paid $12,000... but with the Corolla you paid interest on 18k instead of paying interest on 15k from the Ion.

This is subject to change though as the domestics get their mojo back and stop offering big discounts to move cars.

That's not entirely the resale issue...the problem isn't resale at 5 years, it's resale at 1,2 or 3 years that really screws the average consumer, especially if they're credit is poor or their needs have changed which necessitates the trade....

The average Ion probably loses close to 40% of its value by year 2, the average Corolla or Civic is probably half of that...additionally, as the Ion owner above has indicated, the ability to sell his car is diminished by the Ion's desireability, so trade may be the only viable option.

I would agree that the longer you hold the car, the more your logic holds, however, that's generally not what happens in the real world---especially since Americans feel its their god-given right to drive a new vehicle on demand.

[Intrepidation]

So what sort of repairs did you have to do to the car Jason?

Also, did you consider trying to sell it on ebay?

[Drew Dowdell]

I would agree that the longer you hold the car, the more your logic holds, however, that's generally not what happens in the real world---especially since Americans feel its their god-given right to drive a new vehicle on demand.

Doh! :banghead: Logic is always trumped by stupidity!

[AxelTheRed]

One buyer GM lost! I'll let y'all figure out why!

Um...is it because GM is still way too arrogant and doesn't take advice?

[thegriffon]

Honda is awfully proud of their Civics. I looked at them. I still want to be able to move more than one other adult around which ruled out the Mazda. All 3 were actually smaller than the Ion. The Corolla was the best bet for my needs. The Civic was sporty but not as ecnomical and too expensive. I don't care much for Mazda's reputation beside Mazda practically being a Ford. My dad was upset his son bought a Toyota. He'd have shot me if I'd bought anything associated with Ford.

I ended up paying $16,580 for the Corolla. I got the S model with a manual (to be honest, my love of shifting gears will always hurt my resale a little....but it also keeps my girlfriends from driving my car!) I would have gotten the Ion for about that amount or a little more (Ion 3 Sedan, manual, GM discount). I was actually surprised. It may be the value of the dollar or maybe just that the Corolla is also at the end of its run (the new model is due to arrive next summer). I expected it to cost more and I even got it at 2.9% for four years. A comparable Honda was almost $20,000 though and I don't know about the Mazda (didn't give that one serious thought).

I agree that all these incentives are killing the resale of domestics. So far GM is resisting the temptation to use them on their newer models. I think they'd do anything to get rid of the Ions though.

Toyota is offering $1000 off most Corollas (including 2007s, although edmunds didn't seem to know this), and dealers will usually take off at least another thousand more, plus of course the special packages (thousands worth of content free). Almost any compact (except the Jetta) is bigger than the Corolla, including the Mazda3, and some, such as the Sentra and Civic, are much bigger.

[Drew Dowdell]

It may be the value of the dollar or maybe just that the Corolla is also at the end of its run (the new model is due to arrive next summer).

Corolla is built in the U.S.

Value of the dollar doesn't enter into it.

[pow]

Almost any compact (except the Jetta) is bigger than the Corolla, including the Mazda3, and some, such as the Sentra and Civic, are much bigger.

No, the Jetta is bigger than the Corolla in nearly every way, except for maybe height. And the Corolla is longer than the Mazda3 and Civic....

[enzl]

Doh! :banghead: Logic is always trumped by stupidity!

True.

Most customers, in my experience, have no idea how poorly their 'investment' will hold up over time.

We routinely have customers 'upside down' to the tune of $5k or more! Americans have no clue when it comes to debt management...you'd be better served burning the money for heat in the winter!

[Flybrian]

The Jetta is actually dimensionally smaller inside in many aspects vis a vis the Corolla and while the Toyota is physically longer, other competitors are roomier inside, especially the Sentra.

No comment on the Corolla otherwise. Most know how I feel about this hanger-on compact.

[pow]

The Jetta is actually dimensionally smaller inside in many aspects vis a vis the Corolla and while the Toyota is physically longer, other competitors are roomier inside, especially the Sentra.

No comment on the Corolla otherwise. Most know how I feel about this hanger-on compact.

Really? EPA passenger volume:

Jetta: 91 cu ft

Corolla: 89 cu ft

But then of course, based on passenger volume alone, Hyundai says their Azera is bigger than the 760i... I guess it all depends on what your definition of "big" is.

Edited June 8, 2007 by empowah

[Flybrian]

Really? EPA passenger volume:

Jetta: 91 cu ft

Corolla: 89 cu ft

But then of course, based on passenger volume alone, Hyundai says their Azera is bigger than the 760i... I guess it all depends on what your definition of "big" is.

I looked up individual dimensions on MSNAutos. In many ways, the Jetta is large, especially where it would count more (head/legroom). I don't know how the EPA calculates interior volume and its a misnomer anyway. Yes, the Azera has more interior volume than the 760i, but so does a '98 LeSabre. A Bentley Azure is a 'compact'. The Malibu MAXX was a fullsize car. Doesn't all quite make sense.

[CARBIZ]

That's not entirely the resale issue...the problem isn't resale at 5 years, it's resale at 1,2 or 3 years that really screws the average consumer, especially if they're credit is poor or their needs have changed which necessitates the trade....

The average Ion probably loses close to 40% of its value by year 2, the average Corolla or Civic is probably half of that...additionally, as the Ion owner above has indicated, the ability to sell his car is diminished by the Ion's desireability, so trade may be the only viable option.

I would agree that the longer you hold the car, the more your logic holds, however, that's generally not what happens in the real world---especially since Americans feel its their god-given right to drive a new vehicle on demand.

That is what leasing is for. Anybody who is remotely considering dumping a vehicle after 2 or 3 years should be leasing. This is where the entire argument for the Civic or Corolla goes bust. Feature for feature, the Cobalt is cheaper on a lease than either of those vehicles - where is the downside? Even people who are high mileage - I dare say especially people who are high mileage, should be leasing. Around here, you'll pay 8 cents a km for extra mileage up front. That is a bargain. What vehicle depreciates ONLY that much?

It always slays me when people get hung up on the value of their trade. If Saturn is offering 0% on the new vehicle AND the Ion is being phased out, which everyone knows - how could its resale value hold up? And mileage is everything. For us, 100,000 km is the breaking point where a lot of dealers will throw the vehicle to a wholesaler. You're probably going to see fire sales on the Corolla soon when word gets out there is a new one coming. That's just life.

[Ravenfreak13]

That's why we leased the Sebring. Chrylser products are due for a major quality boost in almost 3 years. The exact same time that the lease is up.

And yea, older saturns have high resale. Our SL1's resale is about $3500.

[thegriffon]

No, the Jetta is bigger than the Corolla in nearly every way, except for maybe height. And the Corolla is longer than the Mazda3 and Civic....

The Corolla's extra length is purely cosmetic, and tat even ignores the shorter wheelbase (100 mm less than the Civic) and limited width. The Jetta has the smallest wheelbase of the compact class. Even some subcompacts are close to the Jetta's wheelbase.

[Drew Dowdell]

Really? EPA passenger volume:

Jetta: 91 cu ft

Corolla: 89 cu ft

But then of course, based on passenger volume alone, Hyundai says their Azera is bigger than the 760i... I guess it all depends on what your definition of "big" is.

Interior volume is only important if you're hauling sand.

[haypops]

I guess Saturn reliability is going down (satire). This gentlemen had engine problems with his ION and went with a new Civic.

After much thought, I took that 3 grand and the Saturn and I traded it on a new 2007 Honda Civic LX on Saturday. I am enjoying the new car very much (I love the dash on it). The ION made it to 365,867 miles when I handed over the keys. I forgot to take a camera with me to take a picture of the odometer. I am going to miss it!!!

full thread here

[Drew Dowdell]

he's going to love those timing belt changes for $500 a pop every 90k miles

[haypops]

he's going to love those timing belt changes for $500 a pop every 90k miles

His previous two Saturns both lasted 250,000. Won got totaled in an accident and he sold the other one to his mother. Would you sell a Honda with $250,000 miles on it to your mother?

[ocnblu]

Local Saturn dealer had an S-series in years past parked in front with huge "300,000 miles" banner on the windshield. Now they have an ION with a similar banner. Edited June 9, 2007 by ocnblu

[Ravenfreak13]

If well maintained, saturns can go on for a LONG time.

[enzl]

There's no doubt that the Saturn's have longevity...and the older models have the distinct advantage of the plastic skins remaining fresh.

It's the Ion & Vue's distinctly Fisher Price interiors that marked them as downscale or low rent. The No haggle policy left little chance to truly sell on price. That's why the desireability of the latest (ironically non-polymer) products is so critical to the brands revival.

[Intrepidation]

If well maintained, any car can go on for a LONG time.

Fixed

[regfootball]

i would have gotten a lancer or mazda3 or jetta/rabbiit over a corolla.

corollas are big time fleet cars now. we'll see how that toyota resale holds up when they hit the auctions en masse.

[Intrepidation]

i would have gotten a lancer or mazda3 or jetta/rabbiit over a corolla.

corollas are big time fleet cars now. we'll see how that toyota resale holds up when they hit the auctions en masse.

I would have just bought a used car over a Corolla. Or alternatively, I would have bought I car I liked enough to keep for a long time, not piss my pants over how much I can sell it for in 2 years.

[Satty]

Resale value doesn't just effect how much you can sell it for in 2 years, it effects how much you get from the insurance company if the car is totaled, which does happen.

[Jason]

I put over 100,000 miles on two of my previous Saturns without anything but routine things to fix or keep up. The Ion has been a lot different. There was a switch in the ingition that kept the car from starting which was replaced at 40,000 and again at 94,000 miles and then another switch in the transmission that kept the reverse lights from coming on and had to be replaced in order to pass inspection. The eco-tech was doing fine but I was starting to have transmission troubles which was going to be the bulk of the next round of repair bills.

I think they just laid an egg with the Ion and will be so glad when they are all off the roads.

The thing about resale value that really matters to me is that if a car is still worth something after 5 years and 100,000 miles than it mught be worth replacing the worn out shocks and struts and then driving if for a few more years. I think you really start to get your money out of a car in years six and seven when you don't have a payment and you can sock away a few hundred dollars a month while dreaming of your next ride.

The Corolla is about the same in terms of interior size though I think by the numbers it's the smallest of its class (or at least one of them). The Kia actually felt smallest of the cars I drove. The Ion has a lot of wasted space (above the dash for example). In terms of the car's size, the Toyota fits better in the garage and feels smaller overall though I think it's a few inches longer.

I'm wondering why GM doesn't design better small sedans. Their cars always look so good in coupe form (Ion Quad Coupe, Cobalt, G5--which doesn't even have a sedan model) but the four door models always look like an afterthought. The bigger cars that come in sedan only form look fine so they surely can make a little one.

Probably the biggest factor in my trade this time was the dealership's trade in offers. I just couldn't get a Saturn or Chevy dealer to give me half what the Toyota guy was offering. I suppose the Toyota guy was hoping he'd be selling me more cars down the road. The local Chevy guy used the classic line about how thanks to my dad's GM discount he wouldn't be making any profit on the new car so he had to make it up on the trade in (at which point I walked).

Oddly my girlfriend's 2000 Dakota has been faltering and she test drove an Aura Saturday which she thinks may be her best option. That would make dad happy since he builds the things. For her, even with the V6, she'd save on gas over her V8 4X4.

[CARBIZ]

Even with your father's GM discount, the Corolla was competitive? What's going on down there in Kansas? What's in the water? I don't care what you got for your trade, up here a Corolla (payment) can't touch the Ion or Cobalt. Something is wrong. Just doesn't jive.

Or were you just more hung up on what you were "getting" for your trade? In reality, 3 dealers will "get" the same amount for your trade, within a few hundred dollars. What they "show" you, based on your hot buttons, is an entirely different matter. I suspect the Toyota guy did a better job of reading you.

[aaaantoine]

I'm wondering why GM doesn't design better small sedans. Their cars always look so good in coupe form (Ion Quad Coupe, Cobalt, G5--which doesn't even have a sedan model) but the four door models always look like an afterthought. The bigger cars that come in sedan only form look fine so they surely can make a little one.

Consider this, GM. The main feature that made me consider the Cobalt coupe instead of the sedan was the style. I much prefer the roofline of the coupe over the sedan, but I would have been willing to get the sedan if it had the same tail light cluster design as the coupe. Some people want both form AND function, and the sedan would look great with the baby Corvette tail lights.

While on the subject of Corvette tail lights, the 2008 Malibu's rear would look much better if it were inspired by the SS concept, like the rest of the car was. Consider it sales lost before the car even hits showrooms.

[Jason]

Yeah, they play with the prices of the new car and trade in but if you're paying attention you can make sure that the gap moves in your favor every time. It's just a matter of being able to subtract. A similarly equipped Cobalt priced out at a few hundred dollars less than the Toyota. I've always thought GM's option packages were strange and wondered how they decided what would be standard and what options would require other options and so forth.

I think I also benefitted by purchasing a car that the dealer was stuck with. Unlike most Corolla S's this one lacks the ground effects and spoiler. I think someone ordered it and then didn't take delivery because it's not equipped the same way most cars on the lots were.

Still, I really didn't like the look of the Cobalt sedan so even for thousands less I don't think I would have picked it up.

[Sixty8panther]

What a sad f**king thread.

I guess hope springs eternal... as long as the car is a Toyo-DUR.

Edited June 11, 2007 by Sixty8panther

[Sixty8panther]

If well maintained, saturns can go on for a LONG time.

I think 99% of Saturns are crappy econoboxes... except for the Sky.

That having been said a friend's family has had three Saturns, two

of them went a 1/4 of a million miles. They were both 5-speeds and

one would have gone past 250,000 miles if it had not been totalled.

[Z-06]

I could have imagined a switch to a Crapry, but Crapolla is plainly sad. I wonder why the Automobile world does not make fun of this aging car. Oh wait, it is a TOY, it has to be good.

[Ravenfreak13]

I think 99% of Saturns are crappy econoboxes... except for the Sky.

That having been said a friend's family has had three Saturns, two

of them went a 1/4 of a million miles. They were both 5-speeds and

one would have gone past 250,000 miles if it had not been totalled.

Definately Saturns(S-Series) ca go miles upon miles upon miles. The issue is I can't imagine having to drive one for all those miles. I completelly understand what you are saying. That being said, they aren't bad cars at all. Just WAY WAY TO underequipped.

[Intrepidation]

Yeah, they play with the prices of the new car and trade in but if you're paying attention you can make sure that the gap moves in your favor every time. It's just a matter of being able to subtract. A similarly equipped Cobalt priced out at a few hundred dollars less than the Toyota. I've always thought GM's option packages were strange and wondered how they decided what would be standard and what options would require other options and so forth.

I think I also benefitted by purchasing a car that the dealer was stuck with. Unlike most Corolla S's this one lacks the ground effects and spoiler. I think someone ordered it and then didn't take delivery because it's not equipped the same way most cars on the lots were.

Still, I really didn't like the look of the Cobalt sedan so even for thousands less I don't think I would have picked it up.

The Cobalt sedan looks 1000x better than any Corolla. You picking the Corolla over the Cobalt styliztically brings your sanity and judgment into question.

[Sixty8panther]

Right, is it about resale or styling?

[Z-06]

Although the Cobalt is not a looker, at least it does not look like someone slapped on its faced and elongated it like Tom's face in the cartoon, when he puts his mouth in Jerry's hole. Interior is much cleaner in the cobalt too. I would have totally understood, if it was Cobalt vs. Mazda3. But against Crapolla it is ugly??? That is new.

[Intrepidation]

The Corolla's interior is actually pretty nice, but that exterior is just meh.

[Drew Dowdell]

Yet the center stack still manages to look misaligned... or not center... or ... well.. just something isn't right there.

[Intrepidation]

Yet the center stack still manages to look misaligned... or not center... or ... well.. just something isn't right there.

Yeah I know, I hate that Toyota did that *they did it to the last gen Camry too). But then, I also hate the way the center stack/console in the Aura isn't symmetrical.

[Flybrian]

There's a difference between symmetry and alignment. Many dashes aren't symmetrical, often purposely. Corolla's isn't even aligned correctly. And that interior is literally the best Corolla configuration possible and it still looks lousy. Sure, an 18k pic makes anything look good, but go sit in one, drive it, deal with it for two or three weeks like I have and realize its part of a larger, crappier car.

[Intrepidation]

Well since we're bring up how awesometaskic interiors are, here's the b3st3st of them all

[Jason]

I'm not much for the fake wood grain details myself though some people like those. I even admit that the exterior styling of the Corolla is bland compared to others. But I'm old so simple isn't such a big deal to me. My favorite look is on the VW Jetta and I don't usually go for much bolder than that. The materials in the Cobalt are just cheaper, especially the lower end models, and that's why they start to look bad sooner. Worst case scenario I get burned on this car like I did on my Ion and right after it gets paid off I start to suffer repeated mechanical failures and the appearance begins to deteriorate substantially.

I've got a comfortable car to get me to and from work and pulled 36 mpg in combined driving on the first full tank of gas. My only complaint is that the radio doesn't sound as good.

If the Astra turns out to be that car this fall then I'll drive one next time I'm in the market for a new car.

And if I hit the lottery and money doesn't matter so much I'll pick up a Corvette. And a Porsche. And a CTS. Maybe a classic Bughatti.

As I said earlier, I equate resale value with the practical usefullness of the car after a certain age and five to seven years is the window I'm concerned with.

An earlier response was made about why you would want to drive one of the old S models for 200,000 miles. I think once you hit 100,000 and are going strong you start to wonder how far you can make it despite the rattles and thread bare seats. It was easy to find a good seat cover for those cars and you could just turn the radio up. The parts were small and common. Tires, brakes, shocks and such were cheap compared to other cars and that kept maintanance costs from getting annoying.

I honestly doubt my Corolla will have those advantages but I'm enjoying the change so far. We'll just see how things hold out and what happens five years from now.