May 2007 Sales: Toyota Motor Sales

[enzl]

I have yet to see edmunds report about the camshaft failures.

I'm partly siding with Oldsmoboi on this....there is so much bias in the media, not just towards GM but Domestics in general. Example: They'll be happy to take a shot at how the new Focus looks but say nothing bad about the hideous concepts that may become the next Prius.

--

Still, it's not a 100% bias rate. We've noticed that the Vue and Lambdas are getting good reviews, and that the Aura beat the Camry for Car of the Year. This is proof that if you build an excellent product, there's a good chance they'll give it a good review. However that doesn't stop some rags like Motor Trend of taking $h!s at say, the Enclave.

FWIW...there's only 20 engines with faulty camshafts that have proven to be affected, so I don't think this is the proper topic.

Google Toyota and Sludge, just for your information.....A Wall Street Journal Article, Edmunds.com and a number of consumer sites come up in the links.

I don't dispute that the media uses the domestic 3 as a punching bag....my argument is that much of it is deserved--it certainly was in the past...plenty of solid new product gets good reviews, regardless of source.

BTW-The new Focus is based on the old, old 2000 Focus, instead of the new (Mazda 3/VolvoS40)--that should be ripped--the new Prius hasn't been seen yet---and the Prius is about gas mileage, not styling. The current one looks like a$$ too!

Edited June 4, 2007 by enzl

[Flybrian]

Most of my disgust and irritation comes from seeing perennial 'cute' references to the V4-6-8, 350 Diesels, Cimarron, Omega, and even the goddamn Corvair in regards to current and future products, yet no one sees rustbucket Pony references or T100 jokes or comments about all the worthless midsized junk VW made in the late 80s. GM 'never learns' about rebadges when it comes to the G5, but let's make no mention of the poorly-disguised QX56/Armada or the historic SLX and Passport faux-pas.

Scion is a posterchild for success (and within itself, it isf), but no one points out that its very existence proves that a) Toyota had completely failed with its Genesis Project cars and - more disturbingly - b) cannot market youth-oriented products under its own parent banner, something Nissan, Honda, even Chevy and Ford manage to do. We hear nonstop the ticking of Buick, Pontiac, and Mercury 'death clocks,' but what about Mitsubishi's flatline pulse? Speaking of them, what about the horrendous paint quality issues those cars had? And the foolish and downright hillarious schemes they unsuccessfully used to lure in customers?

And I am almost completely confident in saying that only on this website were people enlightened to the fact that over 50% of Hyundai's brand-new Sonata production ended up in rental fleets[/b]. This stuff just isn't mentioned.

People are always quick to call out the negatives in spite of the positives, and such is true with writings in the automotive press. And perhaps you're right that 'the media' is not to blame, rather certain idiotic editors on staff of various publications who let their own bias or attempts to be hip and cute outweight real journalism. I must say on my part that I have no problem with a review that calls a spade a spade, but I do take issue with one that chooses to needlessly beat, kick, stop, and disect that dead horse for no real purpose.

[gm4life]

I have seen lots of Prius's around here. I hate them I wish people would just buy a Corolla or better yet Cobalt or Focus. What happens when the car dies and what about those batteries. There are lots of chemicals in them. Give it 5 years when hybrids start to go out to the salvage yard. The Tundra sales suprise but me but I live in Iowa, so lots of Fords and Chevy's here. The Camry sales don't because of people buying them and many going to fleets. Seen so many on a recent trip to Madison. I will be heading to the quad cities tomorrow and Millwaukee on Friday it will be intresting to see how there are on the road. GM posted a solid sales month too, and racked more sales up than Toyota, am I right?

[Intrepidation]

FWIW...there's only 20 engines with faulty camshafts that have proven to be affected, so I don't think this is the proper topic.

Google Toyota and Sludge, just for your information.....A Wall Street Journal Article, Edmunds.com and a number of consumer sites come up in the links.

I don't dispute that the media uses the domestic 3 as a punching bag....my argument is that much of it is deserved--it certainly was in the past...plenty of solid new product gets good reviews, regardless of source.

BTW-The new Focus is based on the old, old 2000 Focus, instead of the new (Mazda 3/VolvoS40)--that should be ripped--the new Prius hasn't been seen yet---and the Prius is about gas mileage, not styling. The current one looks like a$$ too!

I am well aware of the Focus being on the old platform, and for that they can poke fun of it all they want. But I was referring to styling. Also, wheil so far 20 engines have been reported, as many as 30,00 could be effected.

I'll tell you one place that's full of bias: the"truth"aboutcars.com

Most of my disgust and irritation comes from seeing perennial 'cute' references to the V4-6-8, 350 Diesels, Cimarron, Omega, and even the goddamn Corvair in regards to current and future products, yet no one sees rustbucket Pony references or T100 jokes or comments about all the worthless midsized junk VW made in the late 80s. GM 'never learns' about rebadges when it comes to the G5, but let's make no mention of the poorly-disguised QX56/Armada or the historic SLX and Passport faux-pas.

Scion is a posterchild for success (and within itself, it isf), but no one points out that its very existence proves that a) Toyota had completely failed with its Genesis Project cars and - more disturbingly - b) cannot market youth-oriented products under its own parent banner, something Nissan, Honda, even Chevy and Ford manage to do. We hear nonstop the ticking of Buick, Pontiac, and Mercury 'death clocks,' but what about Mitsubishi's flatline pulse? Speaking of them, what about the horrendous paint quality issues those cars had? And the foolish and downright hillarious schemes they unsuccessfully used to lure in customers?

And I am almost completely confident in saying that only on this website were people enlightened to the fact that over 50% of Hyundai's brand-new Sonata production ended up in rental fleets[/b]. This stuff just isn't mentioned.

People are always quick to call out the negatives in spite of the positives, and such is true with writings in the automotive press. And perhaps you're right that 'the media' is not to blame, rather certain idiotic editors on staff of various publications who let their own bias or attempts to be hip and cute outweight real journalism. I must say on my part that I have no problem with a review that calls a spade a spade, but I do take issue with one that chooses to needlessly beat, kick, stop, and disect that dead horse for no real purpose.

Right on.

Edited June 4, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Flybrian]

TTAC tries to be alot funnier than it really is and usually isn't that entertaining of a read. When you see a publication put out contrived titles like TWAT and TBAG, you can get a pretty good read about the professionalism at work. Again, alot of the 'bias' isn't malcious contempt for a certain product; its simply poor journalism.

[toesuf94]

I didn't get to read through all of this, but did anyone mention all of the Toyota "Pull Ahead" letters that went out? It was mentioned in another topic. Maybe this is a response to them?

I brought this up in another thread. Two of my neighbors bit on the deal. One was only in his car 6 months and the pulled him ahead in his Avalon. The other guy is a camry owner that was only into his lease for a year. He went with an '07 as well. I found it odd that these two recently purchased cars would be the target of a pull ahead so soon. Seems like a great way to get low mileage trades in, but those are going to compete directly with the Rental returns that are starting to show up on the lots already.

Enzl: Do you seriously feel that the Avalon is a more credible/presentable car than the Buick Lucerne? I personally have never seen a worse interior on a car since the chrome dash of the Dodge Aries 600 than the one on the Avalon. I know it is subjective, but the Buick (to me) is the prettier/ better car. And it gets better mileage to boot.

And Tundra sales are in the sewer here in Cedar Rapids - I drive by the lot daily on my way to and from work...they are the same trucks sitting out front that were there last month. The GMC dealer next door cannot keep Sierras on the lot!

Now that I have said that, it is time for the people of this board to stop whining. I think we are all pissed because Toyota is better at the game than the domestics are. Toyota's people are better at squashing the rumors before they start - the PR machine is hitting on all cylinders...and GM is barely even putting the gloves on to try to fight. GM cars in a lot of cases deliver BETTER fuel economy than the Japanese cars do ( and can use REGULAR GAS to do it! ) but people all have been brainwashed into thinking that Jap cars = gas mileage/ American Cars = Guzzlers. GM needs to get the fight in it's belly that you guys have here - the eye of the Tiger if you will - and get out there and bang the drums! Fight the fight and dispell the rumors and myths that are causing us to fight here on this board. The cute local adds about who has the bigger # of manufacturing plants here and Natural Gas Busses versus Prius there are not getting the job done. It is time to go toe to toe, apple to apple, and put it all on the table NOW. GM and the domestic's PR machines are getting schooled by Toyota's right now...I just hope they are learning something in the process. (Toyota didn't hire Clinton's team after he left the white house, did they?)

[Flybrian]

Enzl: Do you seriously feel that the Avalon is a more credible/presentable car than the Buick Lucerne? I personally have never seen a worse interior on a car since the chrome dash of the Dodge Aries 600 than the one on the Avalon. I know it is subjective, but the Buick (to me) is the prettier/ better car. And it gets better mileage to boot.

I know you asked Enzl specifically, but IMO, the biggest argument against the Avalon comes from within Toyota. Get a similar car on a newer platform with a larger trunk (?!?!) and save money by buying a Camry, or spend the extra few grand and get that newer platform with a more refined ride and more gadgets and an undoubtedly better interior design with the ES350.

[toesuf94]

http://blogs.automotive.com/6204930/miscel...what/index.html

Follow the link above for an example of what is pissing off the people on a pro GM board...even on a blog discussing Toyota offering incentives on it's new truck, see how it is spun:

"Our take? What's the big deal? Sometimes even we, as members of the press, get disgusted with 'exaggerations' of this brand or that. While Toyota doesn't have as many incentives as, for example, General Motors or Chrysler, it does run them, albeit more quietly than many automakers. (We still wonder, though, why Toyota priced the new Tundra so high. We're eagerly awaiting our media vehicle to see what's changed enough to justify the strategy. That, or the world's second largest automaker is banking on its reputation a bit too much.)"

The Domestics always get brought into the fray when they should only be discussing the topic - which in the blog I link to is supposed to be about TOYOTA...

[enzl]

I'm sympathetic, but only to a point. I feel that for every editor with an axe to grind, there's about 10 valid gripes about the incomplete way in which the domestics have competed over time...even with many recent products.

While I share an enthusiasm for the industry in general and I'm personally vested in the domestic's survival, I still have to wonder WTF when I see certain decisions and the resultant product misfires. I just wonder if the lights are on, at all, sometimes.

Please understand that I give noone a free pass and I genuinely don't have an agenda. I love cars, first and foremost. I am unbelieveably lucky to have made it part of my career and I look forward to every product I get to sample, as, much like your children, there's something to love in each of them. It's just that the awfulness of certain issues concerns me deeply and, perhaps, should concern you guys as fans. Nothing personal, just my .02.

[toesuf94]

I am with enzl on this point: Why do the big three shoot themselves in the foot at a launch? Example: The Japanese come out with a car embracing the latest blue-tooth technology...GM not so much. The GMT-900 utes should have offered Bluetooth from the get go. Hell, every new model since 2003/04 should have had this feature standard. Instead, as a GM On-Star subscriber, I get a lesson in ebonics when I am offered turn-by-turn Nabigation, and a phone that has to be separate from my cell if I want hands free. That sucks! Before I get blasted, I am a GM die hard dyed in the wool owner...6 right now! It is inexcusable that a feature that is already standard on the Jap cars that we all sit here and bash is offered as standard equipment - or at the very least an option. This is just a small example of what I feel GM failed on - I know they can do better than the Cobalt/Canyon/Ion/Trailblazer...if not, then they deserve to loose. I realize that each of those four examples were developed at the tail end of the restructuring...if they screw up these replacements, then I shudder at the future. They had better be perfect or better.

Now, back to the Toyota bashing: What I am pissed about the press not jumping all over is the fact that Toyota is experiencing a catastrophic failure of an engine component that by all rights should be the LAST thing that should fail on one of thier products and it is barely a whisper. I have heard time and time and time again how great and reliable the overhead cam 8 cylinder motors are in Toyotas...now to have a camshaft failing on a new truck that is this vital to thier world domination to me is inexcuseable. The new 6 speed tranny fails...hey, it is new. They have been building this type of engine now for YEARS...you would think that they know how to do it by now! For it to be having major failings...and if you honestly believe the cool aid that it is only 20 engines, I have an ocean to show you in Iowa! To me the press and the world should be asking this: If a component in an engine - new displacement or not - is failing - then what else is going to be breaking in areas they are NOT accustomed to...say HD Springs, Ball joints, Drive shafts, Transmissions...This is the point that I think everyone is missing. Toyota is experiencing failures that it should not be in areas that should be bullet proof. So why is noone asking what else is wrong at the big T?

[Intrepidation]

I'm sympathetic, but only to a point. I feel that for every editor with an axe to grind, there's about 10 valid gripes about the incomplete way in which the domestics have competed over time...even with many recent products.

While I share an enthusiasm for the industry in general and I'm personally vested in the domestic's survival, I still have to wonder WTF when I see certain decisions and the resultant product misfires. I just wonder if the lights are on, at all, sometimes.

Please understand that I give noone a free pass and I genuinely don't have an agenda. I love cars, first and foremost. I am unbelieveably lucky to have made it part of my career and I look forward to every product I get to sample, as, much like your children, there's something to love in each of them. It's just that the awfulness of certain issues concerns me deeply and, perhaps, should concern you guys as fans. Nothing personal, just my .02.

It is indeed lucky for you to have it as part of your career. I know GM and the Domestics still make mistakes (4-speed pickups, Chrysler Interiors, Ford's lack of the new 3.5L in the Fusion, and their general poor management). They don't get a free pass though, whereas it still seems that certain things are overlooked when an import vehicle is mentioned.

[JBarraxJr]

Well, I'm getting into a conversation that's a few days old, but, as a long-time auto enthusiast and owner of several GM cars and one Accord, I'd like to add my two cents' worth.

About media balance; When it was reported last month that Toyota was on pace to outsell GM for the first time this year, there were repeated references to recalls and slipping quality. So you guys are not accurate in alleging that 'the media" covers up their errors. However, I am also a CarandDriver subscriber and I got a chance to talk personally to several editors at the 50th anniversary bash in June of 2005. Patrick Bedard admitted that when it comes to brands, some of the editors "have their favorites". It doesn't take a genius to figure out that most of their favorites are imports.

Having said that, I think a HUGE reason they favor imports is because many of them have worked as engineers at domestic auto companies and they know firsthand how decisions are made at the Big Three. More on that later.

About comparative quality. GM is getting better. Everyone who studies automotive quality acknowledges that. The problem is, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are getting better too, and the domestics are chasing a moving target. According to JD Power & Associates, the top brands in initial quality are still Asian. If I remember correctly, the #2 brand in 2005 was Hyundai, which used to be a dog. They committed themselves to matching Toyota and they actually beat them. They came in second behind Lexus. So someone can outdo the Japanese in build quality. Unfortunately, it seems that Ford, GM, et al don't have the will to do it. More on that later...

Firsthand experience: I usually don't buy brand new cars, so I have a somewhat distorted view of this, but, imo when you drive a car from say, 40,000 miles to 100,000 miles, you get a very good idea of the quality of the engineering and the parts used. I have owned a Pontiac 6000STE, a Pontiac Phoenix, a Pontiac Bonneville, two TransAm's, a Chrysler LeBaron Turbo, two Mercury Sables, a Toyota Corolla, Nissan Hardbody pickup, a Ford Taurus, and I currently own and drive a 2001 Oldsmobile Aurora and a 97 Honda Accord. All but the Taurus were bought used. The most reliable cars of this lot--by far-- have been the Corolla and the Accord. Necessary unscheduled repairs on these cars are so infrequent that they are hardly worth mentioning. In 6 years with the Accord, we've had to replace a radiator and an exhaust part. That's it. With my domestic cars, I generally have had to replace worn out parts so frequently that I keep a running list in my mind of things that need to be fixed. I generally have to sell the domestics as they age because they become to expensive to maintain.

Not so the Accord. This is the first used car I've ever bought that I paid off and kept for a significant length of time because I didn't have to keep pouring money into it. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

The imports are engineered and built to higher standards. Period. End of story. You can argue about all you want, but hundreds of thousands of drivers with experiences like mine will tell you you're insane or in blind denial.

The inside stories: Now why is that? In my opinion, the drastic difference between the long term reliability of Japanese cars and American cars is the way they're made from the top down. That is, the criteria used to decide what goes into the vehicle and what comes out. Specifically, how much testing and engineering goes in and how much profit comes out. Many books have been written bout the auto industry. Two that are quite revealing are Car, by Mary Walton, and All Corvettes are Red by James Schefter. Both of these were based on inside access to Detroit development teams as they worked on the 97(?) Taurus and C5 Corvette. (The End of Detroit is informative too, but it's written from an outside perspective so you don't get any insight into how decisions are made).

Walton and Shefter had access to meetings with product planners, designers, engineers, etc and were present as decisions were made on what concepts to choose, what features to leave in, and how many test mules to use. They talked about how the domestics were aware that Toyota and Honda use test fleets with hundreds of vehicles to work out problems before they release the cars. Chevy and Ford use a tiny fraction of that number and many bugs aren't even found until the cars are in the hands of disappointed consumers. They also give you a glimpse into the pay scale and lifestyle of these execs and the amount of money they must squeeze out of each car to support those lifestyles.

To make a long story short, and to make my point, the basic difference between the way Honda and Toyota develop products and the way the Big Two do it, is greed. Ford and GM could compete and win if they would only follow the Asian example and stop trying to maximize short term profit out of each car and make a larger commitment to R&D and quality.

GM gripes about the cost of their union contracts and tries to blame their inability to compete with Japan on health care costs. To be sure they pay higher costs and wages than the Japanese do. But they also pay themselves much higher salaries and benefits than their Japanese counterparts. Domestic auto execs rake in MILLIONS in compensation, even when the companies they run are losing money. There's only one word for that ladies and gentlemen: Greed. Naked avarice. Ford and GM can't compete because they would rather live as Princes of American Industry than produce good products at a fair price and earn their customers' loyalty by offering a better car for the money.

Case in point: How much do GM and Toyota invest in product quality? Toyota invests about 80 BILLION /year on research and development to support about 20 cars spread out over 3 brands. GM markets...what, 30, 40 models sold by 6 brands. They invest less than 7 billion a year on R&D. Toyota invest 11 times as much money to produce good quality vehicles with about 2/3 as many products to support. They take a long term view and believe that if they provide customers with vehicles that give them their money's worth, they'll get repeat business and sales based on word of mouth advertising. Does it work? If it didn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But since it obviously works so well, why don't Ford and GM copy the formula? Because they don't friggin want to. They'd rather make prettier cars that aren't as reliable and bet that people will buy stylish vehicles instead of bland reliable ones. That was the thinking that led Ford to market the all-oval Taurus. They made a conscious decision NOT to try to build as good a car as a Camry. They figured we'd rather spend $27,000 on a pretty, swoopy car with persistent parts failures than buy a less bland old "vanilla" Camry that runs reliably for years.

If you don't believe me read the book.

Until Ford and GM give up on the scheme of selling pretty cars with inferior quality and accept lower salaries (how about a $200,000 salary cap all the way up to the CEO's office?) in the interest of long term viability, they will not be able to stem the tide of Japanese market share gains. They can complain all they want about Unions and health care costs, they can accuse the Japanese of dumping, hurting the economy, whatever. All that matters to consumers is getting their money's worth. And until the domestics can PROVE that their cars are More reliable than the Japanese brands, consumers will continue to give their dollars to the companies who've earned them. Those companies are almost all Japanese.

Let the flaming begin.

Edited June 5, 2007 by JBarraxJr

[toesuf94]

well written and pretty damned accurate. The only deviation of what you put out there from what I have to say is this: The imports are working on a curve...the money they are using is 121:1 because of an exchange rate and a government that props them up. The US government does nothing but hinder U.S. Manufacturing and trade. Couple the exchange rate with the healthcare costs associated with the old line US companies, and you can see that a lot of developement dollars are being spent elsewhere than R and D. Yes, U.S. execs make too much money, and often extort huge sums from companies that are loosing money - and I really feel it is wrong in 99.9% of the cases. But you cannot tell me that the Japanese manufacturers are not paying thier top execs huge sums - I don't buy that. The savings on the exchange rates - and the profits ( every dollar made here is 121.72 yen - that is one hell of a multiplier ) Pretty easy to invest 80% of those profits towards R and D when you look at it that way! They sell just US $1 Million of PROFIT - they TAKE HOME 121,720,000 milllion yen - that is PER MILLION MADE IN THE US. Add to that a basically capped medical costs system funded by the government and private citizens, and you have a pretty nice place to do business against the U.S. Firms. Toyota has already begun clammoring about the high costs of business here in the US and they are not even Unionized yet! And, the other little bit of hocus pocus that they do here is claim that they manufacture their US sold cars here...not true - they ship them in from Japan. Over 55% come in from over seas. ALL of the Scions come from Japan. The Tundra is snapped together in Texas from Japanese parts.

Look how GM has opted/had to compete: R and D in China (8 to 1 exchange rate!!!) and Australia (1.2 to 1?) as well as manufacturing over seas now. They have to to compete here now. Shared platforms for the entire world are being built in China, Australia, Austria, Spain?...all over. This is where you will see GM start catching up with content like what is in the Jap cars - the savings from manufacturing and developing outside the US will allow for the added content of the rivals.

As for my cars: I have owned all makers of them I think; Jap German and American. I have had two Hondas. Hated them both. Most Boring cars I ever owned. Mere appliances. My 1982 BMW was damned near perfect when the front end would stay together! My GM's have never made me walk in 19 years of driving. Ever. Maintenance: Brakes, tires, gas and oil. In 19 years I have never replaced more than a shock absorber on a suspension. Worse problem I have had with any of my GM cars is a bad tape deck on a couple of cars where the belt dried up and refused to play. And I can say that even the worst of my GM's always made me want to drive it just a little further - the long way home every time. I cannot say that about either Honda that I owned, my wifes VWs...and no Toyota has ever made me want to drive it. Not once - and I love to drive anything with wheels.

[JBarraxJr]

You make a good point about the exchange rate Toes.

About their top executive pay, I have read several times that Japanese companies make much less at the top than their American counerparts. The ratios of the CEO pay are more like ten times what the assembly line workers make vs 200 times the same for Detroit brass. I'll have to research it to get the exact figures.

Of course, since Nissan is now owned by Renault, it's a Japanese company in name only (much like Chrysler, the red-headed stepchild of Daimler Chrysler).

One of the things that irks me about the Japanese manufacturing in America is that they are proving that American workers can build excellent cars and do it profitably. The primary obstruction, imo, is the winner-take-all attitude of the unions vs the domestics. Back in the early 20th Century, unions were necessary and they did a helluva lot of good for American workers. But they have grown fat and lazy (not to mention corrupt) becoming not much better than the greedy CEO's they used to challenge. When an assembly line worker gets paid triple time for working on his birthday, and workers are able to make laziness the s.o.p. we got serious problems. Not all union operations are lazy though. Ford's UAW run Atlanta plant was quite productive in the Taurus' heyday because the union management worked with the plant managers to put forth a good effort. (Too bad the Ford brass were too interested in building it on the cheap rather than letting them challenge the workforce at American Honda's Marysville plant and Toyota's Georgetown KY plant).

You said your GM cars have never left you stranded. I wish I could say the same. I have been stranded several times, by my Pontiac 6000 STE and by one of the Mercury Sables. And my current Aurora hasn't stranded me but has persistent C.E.L. and transmission issues. Otherwise, it's very well appointed, has a wonderful DOHC 3.5l V6 and is a gorgeous vehicle (see my sig). But I must disagree with your assessment of the "boring" nature of Japanese cars. I did have a boring, utilitarian Corolla, but our Accord is delightful. The steering feel and handling are the "purest" of any car I've driven. I don't drive it much because it's my wife's transport, but on the occasions that I do, I'm always pleasantly surprised at how it makes me feel connected to the powerplant and how much road feel it communicates and how solid it feels. And that's with over 120k on the odometer. It's actually more engaging than the Aurora, just not as large or comfy.

One more word about imports. Domestic companies have been telling us to "buy American" while they close U.S. plants and open new ones in Mexico and Canada, so I don't buy that rap. Also, I think most European imports are overrated. The VW Jetta is built in Mexico and most Audi, BMW, and Mercedes models are just as unreliable as Fords and Chevy's. The only German import that actually has better than average reliability (according to Consumer Reports) is Porshe. All the others are overpriced status symbols.

Edited June 6, 2007 by JBarraxJr

[gm4life]

I have some bad news, today I went America's river fest on the mighty Miss, Toyota had a booth and a trailer there playing country music... Made a true country boy (Iowan) sick!

My Trips...

Quad Cities I saw lots of GMT-900's, a 2 old Tundras and tons of 2000-2007 Impalas, lot of Bonneville SE's (00-05) a few Camrys and tons of Highlanders and alot of old Ford pick-ups.

Milwaukee I saw lots of new Camrys, Prius and old Tundra's. I saw tons of Silverado's, Saab's, Saturn's, and a few Aciada's.

Edited June 10, 2007 by gm4life