Another analyst predicting Toyota to be #1

[gmcbob]

What do die-hard GM fans make of this recent article posted on Wired.com?

It's amazing how many people don't actually want to give GM a fighting chance in the market place.

http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/cars/index.bl...ntry_id=1237739

Friday, 30 September 2005
Toyota on Top
Now Playing: Pearl Jam
Although hybrids are currently less than one percent of total auto sales, two investment gurus believe that sales of gas-electric vehicles will enable Toyota to pass GM and become the world's biggest vehicle manufacturer.

I attended the Investing for Clean Energy in Oregon event yesterday, where Roger Ballentine, the president of consulting firm Green Strategies, said he wouldn’t be surprised if Toyota owned GM one day. Ballentine said American automakers blew it during the past decade when they focused on delivering powerful and sexy sedans and SUVs while ignoring their fuel efficiency.

The charismatic Ballentine, who previously worked for President Bill Clinton as chairman of the White House Climate Change Task Force, said that reducing our fuel consumption (and therefore purchases of fuel from the Middle East) is critical for national security. "We are fighting a war on terror and funding both sides," he said.

Ballentine is also aiding the effort to use coal to fill our gas tanks. He helped draft an amendment that changes the definition of "refinery" to include plants that convert coal to diesel or gasoline, thereby enabling them to be eligible for government tax incentives.

Winston Hilcox, who manages the portfolio of environmental initiatives for the California Employees Retirement System (CalPers), was equally high on Toyota's future. Hilcox, said CalPers is using its leverage as the country's largest pension fund ($194 billion) to push auto companies to develop cleaner vehicles.

Calpers, which has $900 million invested in auto companies, asked them to quit a lawsuit that is attempting to block California's new greenhouse gas regulations. Hilcox said Calpers will use its muscle to join any shareholder action that asks auto companies to be more eco-friendly. Money talks!

[regfootball]

F*CK EM (the analysts) Edited October 3, 2005 by regfootball

[Member55]

Toyota is already #1. My small business made more money than GM during the last two quarters.

[loki]

i believe i know what that california law entails.... it'll be another late 70's happening for car companies here, lowered power....maybe cleaner? sure it might work , but it'll also put us back about 10 years...

[CARBIZ]

As usual, GM is losing the PR battle on this one. While GM is exploring other technologies and building hybrid buses, Toyota has struck a chord with the media on their hybrid vehicles - and as we all know, it is in this arena that a lot of the vanilla car buyers can be swayed.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I attended the Investing for Clean Energy in Oregon event yesterday, where Roger Ballentine, the president of consulting firm Green Strategies, said he wouldn’t be surprised if Toyota owned GM one day. Ballentine said American automakers blew it during the past decade when they focused on delivering powerful and sexy sedans and SUVs while ignoring their fuel efficiency.

WOW!! He pulled that straight out of his ass! I love it when people who have NO idea about this industry feel obligated to spew their hot air all over the place.

Winston Hilcox, who manages the portfolio of environmental initiatives for the California Employees Retirement System (CalPers), was equally high on Toyota's future. Hilcox, said CalPers is using its leverage as the country's largest pension fund ($194 billion) to push auto companies to develop cleaner vehicles.

No surprise there, they are Californian afterall.

And anyone who has been watching the industry for the last 2 years KNOWS that Calpers has it in for the Big 3 since they were at one time (might still be) in a legal battle.

It's just 2 biased opinions.. that's all. But GM PR needs to get it's ass on the track nonetheless.

[Polish_Kris]

Me and Ted were talking about this last night, and I know you guys will hate this, but this is the early and late 1970's all over again, Honda and Toyota are creating hybrids, and ULEV vehicles, and GM is creating trucks with 6.2 litre engines, and gas costs over $1/litre.

[network engineer]

WOW!! He pulled that straight out of his ass! I love it when people who have NO idea about this industry feel obligated to spew their hot air all over the place.

Not too far fetched. Tracinda, installs a director on the board. Kekorian sells off GMAC and reaps a huge dividend on his stock. Without GMAC GM quickly becomes unprofitable, Toyota steps in to "rescue" GM. Toyota purchases a controlling (51% including kekorians 10% )interest in GM stock. Toyota essentially owns GM.

Could very well happen. Edited October 3, 2005 by network engineer

[andy82471]

Not too far fetched.  Tracinda, installs a director on the board.  Kekorian sells off GMAC and reaps a huge dividend on his stock.  Without GMAC GM quickly becomes unprofitable, Toyota steps in to "rescue" GM.  Toyota purchases a controlling (51% including kekorians 10% )interest in GM stock. Toyota essentially owns GM.

Could very well happen.

[post="23403"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Toyota will not buy GM. It doesn't need GM to be the global No.1 automaker. Toyota typically expands market share by building new products and not aquiring financially struggling automaker like GM. Buying GM and all its legacy costs would be suicidal for Toyota. And also GM still has too much fat and not enough meat.

[Guest swallowit]

cant let this happen ill vandalize everything to stop this

[Snate]

cant let this happen

ill vandalize everything to stop this

[post="23620"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Uh...how exactly is that going to work? Blow up a Toyota and the guy will just buy another one.

[Cory Wolfe]

Really? All that is going to do is make you even more ignorant and immature. Anyways, I think it's possible for Toyota to become #1. I hope it doesn't, though...

[daves87rs]

cant let this happen

ill vandalize everything to stop this

[post="23620"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

What? :blink:

Ok then... :lol:

[daves87rs]

Not too far fetched.  Tracinda, installs a director on the board.  Kekorian sells off GMAC and reaps a huge dividend on his stock.  Without GMAC GM quickly becomes unprofitable, Toyota steps in to "rescue" GM.  Toyota purchases a controlling (51% including kekorians 10% )interest in GM stock. Toyota essentially owns GM.

Could very well happen.

[post="23403"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Nope. Toyota wouldn't touch GM with a ten foot pole...a few plants maybe...

As far as GMAC trying to be sold off-that could be very real...

[Newbiewar]

Uh...how exactly is that going to work?  Blow up a Toyota and the guy will just buy another one.

[post="23628"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

if enough people do it, insurance companys wont cover em any more... or it'll be much too expensive to own a toyota

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Not too far fetched.  Tracinda, installs a director on the board.  Kekorian sells off GMAC and reaps a huge dividend on his stock.  Without GMAC GM quickly becomes unprofitable,   Toyota steps in to "rescue" GM.  Toyota purchases a controlling (51% including kekorians 10% )interest in GM stock.   Toyota essentially owns GM.

Could very well happen.

[post="23403"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But not likely...

Taking over a company that is hamstrung like GM by legacy, UAW and cost would be a logistical and investor nightmare. Especially if you're a company that already has the ability to do pretty much everything GM can do except better and faster.

Toyota, with all their money and might, would be essentially committing suicide by taking over GM and they know it.

Besides, Toyota never has and probably never will buyout anyone. It's been against their policy for years.

THESE QUOTES by these "ANALYSTS" are nothing more than the typical GRUDGE match waged at GM by the anti-GM, anti-Detroit and anti-DOMESTIC patrons of our media.

And P.S. Pearl Jam sucks...... bad........ :Toyota:

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

You know, the more I think about this the more it pisses me off and the more it shows just how DUMB these people are.

GM IS a fuel economy leader.... GM HAS implemented hybrid technology, more than Toyota in fact and GM IS THE leader in hydrogen technology.

Yet because of ignorant bastards like this who have a lot of stupidity and an axe to grind combined with GM's reluctance to defend themselves for some unknown reason, GM has a reputation from neanderthal 70's America.

GM needs to shut these people, people who just want to see Detroit die-just for the hell of it, up or at least contest them.

[shameless self promotion] Hire me GM! You'll never lose another fight again and if you do then we'll at least make sure they know they've been in one helluva fight [/shameless self promotion]

[KaliRover]

I really don't know why... but I have a huge feeling GM, despite not very many announcements or PR's, will launch a hybrid or hydrogen campaign like we've never seen before.... and although my dreams of a camaro has been put down to rest, I'm pretty confident that GM will do something crazy at one of these autoshows that will just silance the rest, including Toyota.

[Newbiewar]

I really don't know why... but I have a huge feeling GM, despite not very many announcements or PR's, will launch a hybrid or hydrogen campaign like we've never seen before.... and although my dreams of a camaro has been put down to rest, I'm pretty confident that GM will do something crazy at one of these autoshows that will just silance the rest, including Toyota.

[post="23782"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

silence the rest, like how stunned mazda is by the two GM convertable twins, aka solstice and sky?

[Clownzilla]

I really don't know why... but I have a huge feeling GM, despite not very many announcements or PR's, will launch a hybrid or hydrogen campaign like we've never seen before.... and although my dreams of a camaro has been put down to rest, I'm pretty confident that GM will do something crazy at one of these autoshows that will just silance the rest, including Toyota.

[post="23782"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I beleive GM will be the hydrogen leader, for cars..........business', homes,etc..I beleive that for GM to survice, they will have to become the leading hydrogen power provider for the world economy, not just the automotive industry. Far fetched..........why else would they bed testing car AND stand alone fuel cells?

[Guest gmrebirth]

You know, the more I think about this the more it pisses me off and the more it shows just how DUMB these people are.

GM IS a fuel economy leader.... GM HAS implemented hybrid technology, more than Toyota in fact and GM IS THE leader in hydrogen technology.

Yet because of ignorant bastards like this who have a lot of stupidity and an axe to grind combined with GM's reluctance to defend themselves for some unknown reason, GM has a reputation from neanderthal 70's America.

GM needs to shut these people, people who just want to see Detroit die-just for the hell of it, up or at least contest them.

[shameless self promotion] Hire me GM! You'll never lose another fight again and if you do then we'll at least make sure they know they've been in one helluva fight [/shameless self promotion]

[post="23780"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Umm, you are incorrect.

GM has not implemented more hybrid technology than Toyota.

For over a year now, Toyota has been selling a hybrid turbo diesel commercial Hino truck in Japan. That makes Toyota with the first and only hybrid diesel model available to the public.

Also, Toyota has prototype fuel cell hybrid buses in service in Tokyo.

This is on top of the hybrid models Toyota already sells around the world.

GM has it's hybrid buses yes, but no hybrids that have yet to be available to the public. And no, the Sierra "hybrid" doesn't count.

[Newbiewar]

Umm, you are incorrect.

GM has not implemented more hybrid technology than Toyota.

For over a year now, Toyota has been selling a hybrid turbo diesel commercial Hino truck in Japan. That makes Toyota with the first and only hybrid diesel model available to the public.

Also, Toyota has prototype fuel cell hybrid buses in service in Tokyo.

This is on top of the hybrid models Toyota already sells around the world.

GM has it's hybrid buses yes, but no hybrids that have yet to be available to the public. And no, the Sierra "hybrid" doesn't count.

[post="24315"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

that would also be incorrect, Benz accually was the first Hybrid Diesel in Europe, and it gets impecable fuel efficency...

[regfootball]

we only used 2 out of the three bombs so far, haven't we? c'mon people, its only a joke.........

[Guest gmrebirth]

that would also be incorrect, Benz accually was the first Hybrid Diesel in Europe, and it gets impecable fuel efficency...

[post="24317"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Benz has a hybrid diesel on the market right now?

As in, *not* just a concept?

Prove it.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

[quote]Umm, you are incorrect.[/quote]

Except not.

[quote]GM has not implemented more hybrid technology than Toyota.[/quote]

On a fuel savings basis (Which is why we build hybrids right?) they indeed have.

[quote]For over a year now, Toyota has been selling a hybrid turbo diesel commercial Hino truck in Japan. That makes Toyota with the first and only hybrid diesel model available to the public.[/quote]

GM hybrid buses have been on sale for 4 or 5 years now.

[quote]Also, Toyota has prototype fuel cell hybrid buses in service in Tokyo.[/quote]

As does GM; in D.C.

[quote]This is on top of the hybrid models Toyota already sells around the world.[/quote]

Which isn't many in the grand scheme of things, especially considering the U.S. is by far the LARGEST market for hybrids.

[quote]GM has it's hybrid buses yes, but no hybrids that have yet to be available to the public. And no, the Sierra "hybrid" doesn't count.[/quote]

And why doesn't it? Who says? It is in fact a hybrid isn't it? Just because they didn't make a worhtless "Gee whiz" mobile like Toyota and instead decided to focus on real USEFUL technology doesn't mean it isn't a real hybrid.

See that's the thing with import-minded people.. No mater how good GM becomes, they will still refuse to belief it and continue to JUSTIFY their bias against the company. Same with the Ford hybrids.

[Guest gmrebirth]

Except not.
On a fuel savings basis (Which is why we build hybrids right?) they indeed have.
GM hybrid buses have been on sale for 4 or 5 years now.
As does GM; in D.C.
Which isn't many in the grand scheme of things, especially considering the U.S. is by far the LARGEST market for hybrids.
And why doesn't it? Who says? It is in fact a hybrid isn't it? Just because they didn't make a worhtless "Gee whiz" mobile like Toyota and instead decided to focus on real USEFUL technology doesn't mean it isn't a real hybrid.

See that's the thing with import-minded people.. No mater how good GM becomes, they will still refuse to belief it and continue to JUSTIFY their bias against the company. Same with the Ford hybrids.

[post="24341"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

GM so far has sold how many hybrid buses?

And isn't the point of hybrids all above helping the environment? The fuel savings go along with that, but the *main* point of hybrids is emissions. And in terms of overall fuel saved and emissions, Toyota has done more on the hybrid front than GM, whether you want to believe it or not.

Toyota has sold over 300,000 Priuses already, and counting.

The average Joe *cannot* go and just simply buy a GM hybrid bus for personal use.

They are not publically available vehicles.

I can go *right now* to Japan and buy myself a Hino hybrid diesel truck. That's the difference.

Please, don't beat this dead horse any more. The Sierra is not a "hybrid" because all it does is turn off the motor at a red light. It does nothing more than that. There are no additional electrical motors that provide additional power on top of the gas engine.

The joint GM/DCX/BMW hybrid tech will be a true hybrid system, not some phoney baloney coined by marketing "hybrid".

You seem to be blinded by your own bias. I try and remain neutral and partial to all companies, and give credit where it is due. Of course, I am a GM fan, but I try and keep my bias to a minimum, and I acknowledge and respect the competition. GM needs a *major* revolution for it to turn itself around, as right now, GM is going nowhere fast.

You people never credit Toyota's hybrid tech in Japan, yet continually talk about GM's hybrid busses. Is that not considered bias? Edited October 5, 2005 by gmrebirth

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

[quote]And isn't the point of hybrids all above helping the environment? The fuel savings go along with that, but the *main* point of hybrids is emissions.[/quote]

mmmkay.... whatever you say.

[quote]And in terms of overall fuel saved and emissions, Toyota has done more on the hybrid front than GM, whether you want to believe it or not.[/quote]

And I should believe this why? Because you the import person says so? Typical.

[quote]The average Joe *cannot* go and just simply buy a GM hybrid bus for personal use.[/quote]

And that has anything to do with what???? If your main concern is to save the environment, then wouldn't reducing the maximum amount of emissions be the goal instead of giving prententious, self righteous, baby boomers a new fad to rub in the face of their neighbors?

[quote]I can go *right now* to Japan and buy myself a Hino hybrid diesel truck. That's the difference.[/quote]

Okay... Because the average Japanese citizen buys a commercial medium duty truck as a daily driver.

[quote]Please, don't beat this dead horse any more. The Sierra is not a "hybrid" because all it does is turn off the motor at a red light. It does nothing more than that. There are no additional electrical motors that provide additional power on top of the gas engine.[/quote]

And that makes a difference because? Is there some magical Websters definition for "Hybrid and how it is built" I guess too many people have been brainwashed into the Toyota way or no way thinking of the media.

[quote]You seem to be blinded by your own bias. I try and remain neutral and partial to all companies, and give credit where it is due. Of course, I am a GM fan, but I try and keep my bias to a minimum, and I acknowledge and respect the competition. GM needs a *major* revolution for it to turn itself around, as right now, GM is going nowhere fast.

You people never credit Toyota's hybrid tech in Japan, yet continually talk about GM's hybrid busses. Is that not considered bias?[/quote]

Okay... If I have to repeat this one more time I'm going to scream. (I've said this 4 times in the past 2 days)

WE ARE Cheers and Gears, a GM ENTHUSIAST SITE. We are NOT unbiased. I am horribly biased, I HATE Toyota more than I hate a baby killer. THIS IS a GM enthusiast site, NOT an IMPORT FRIENDLY media outlet.

This will be my last post on this topic.

[frogger]

As long as Toyota builds cars people want including commuter car hybrids, while GM makes large questionable decisions and wastes resources and development time on companies like Fiat, Subaru and Saab, Toyota will continue to gain on GM.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

the only alternative is for GM and Ford to band together and buyout Chrysler group and form an alliance called the Big 3 and devote all resources into top notch powertrain design and quality. :P

[Member55]

I wouldn't be surprised if Ford and GM eventually form some kind of alliance. If they keep loosing market share.

[toyoguy]

On a fuel savings basis (Which is why we build hybrids right?) they indeed have.

[post="24341"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Somehow I doubt a couple hundred hybrid buses compare to the fuel savings of 100K+ Priuses sold.

[Northstar]

Actually, I think the hybrid buses do save as much if not more than the Priuses. The buses save some huge amount, while the Prius is about 45 MPG whereas a Civic would be 35 MPG anyways. You wouldn't save a significant amount of gas because you're already getting pretty good mileage if you would have bought a Civic rather than a Prius. Buses on the other hand get such shitty mileage to begin with, that even a 5 MPG increase probably saves a gallon ever 5 miles... mulitply that times probably at least 200 miles a day the bus drives, and you save 50 gallons of gas PER DAY PER BUS (of course I'm just guessing what the bus gets, but it's probably a significant MPG % increase whereas the Prius is not). I don't remember exactly, but I think GM said if the 14 largest bus systems or cities converted to the hybrid buses it would save like 200 million gallons of gas.