SPY SHOTS! 2008 Honda Accord sedan

[regfootball]

Would you buy a Geely if it was stylish?

well, no, because I know in a Geely I would die if I accidentally bumped a sign post in the parking lot.

[Supremus]

I'm feeling Sonata and Saturn L-Series vibes... anyway, it's the new definition of boring on wheels.

[ponchoman49]

Another yawner from Honda and yet another BMW knockoff generic bland mid size sedan. Does anybody know how to style cars anymore?

[sciguy_0504]

While it is much better than the current Accord (you can compare the two in one of the photos on V-Tech Temple), it is a disappointment after the coupe we have been shown. I guess they figured it's better to be safe and bland with the sedan but more sporty and luxurious with the coupe. I can understand that mentality.

The new Malibu probably will not live up to the new Accord's interior but it's exterior surpasses it by a large margin.

[siegen]

(you can compare the two in one of the photos on V-Tech Temple)

VTech? :AH-HA_wink:

The new Malibu probably will not live up to the new Accord's interior but it's exterior surpasses it by a large margin.

You're comparing pre-production spy shots of the new Accord versus press release studio shots of the new Malibu.... Come on.

[drew770]

yup.

the mazda 3 kicks the civic's ass so there's no reason to think the next 6 won't kick the accord's ass. Mazda is licking their chops after seeing this Honda dung.

Honda is really going after the old folks homes with this thing. i wonder if they will be doing ride and drives at assisted living places.

Chris, do you really sleep with a camera under your pillow?

But Honda is the true azz kicker because it's sales, profitablity, reputation, resale value & quality is light years ahead of anything Mazda produces.

So in order to really kick some azz you need more than good looks.

[LosAngeles]

So no one fears for the G8 then?

[Northstar]

You're comparing pre-production spy shots of the new Accord versus press release studio shots of the new Malibu.... Come on.

There is very little camo on the Accord, you can tell what it is going to look like except for a few details, and you can tell it's not going to be particularly stylish or attractive.

[Chris_Doane]

So no one fears for the G8 then?

I would guess there aren't going to be a lot of people cross-shopping the G8 with the Accord sedan.

(maybe you were being sarcastic?)

Edited May 16, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[siegen]

There is very little camo on the Accord, you can tell what it is going to look like except for a few details, and you can tell it's not going to be particularly stylish or attractive.

You're comparing camoed pre-production Accord spy shots to studio shots of the Malibu. Just wait for the press release shots of the Accord to get a good comparison.

[LosAngeles]

I would guess there aren't going to be a lot of people cross-shopping the G8 with the Accord sedan.

(maybe you were being sarcastic?)

I'm talking about the similar profiles. If the G8 doesn't beat the Accord to market, a lot of morons will say the G8 looks like the Accord. I can see it now.

The Accord does keep getting bigger and bigger, plus people cross shop Impalas wiht them, so it's possible they'll look at the G8 in the same light. The coupe alone is as big as the Buick Wildcat these days.

Edited May 17, 2007 by LosAngeles

[regfootball]

But Honda is the true azz kicker because it's sales, profitablity, reputation, resale value & quality is light years ahead of anything Mazda produces.

So in order to really kick some azz you need more than good looks.

Gee. In C/D's recent comparo, the mazdaspeed 3 really kicked the Civic Si's ass. Everything else. The civic wasn't in the top spot. i wonder if it's partially because the civic has like, um, no torque.

[pow]

Gee. In C/D's recent comparo, the mazdaspeed 3 really kicked the Civic Si's ass. Everything else. The civic wasn't in the top spot. i wonder if it's partially because the civic has like, um, no torque.

There was no Civic in that comparison...

[Chris_Doane]

If the G8 doesn't beat the Accord to market, a lot of morons will say the G8 looks like the Accord. I can see it now.

I don't see that happening at all.

G8 and Accord are totally different animals.

[regfootball]

There was no Civic in that comparison...

um, well if it wasn't them it was some other cmparo. i ge t so many f@#king magazines i can't keep em stright.

[AxelTheRed]

2008 Honda Accord = BIG f@#king snore.

It just goes to prove my theory that if you took the badges off of most Asian cars, you couldn't tell them apart. I would've thought this was a Kia or Hyundai if they hadn't told me it was a Honda.

Edited May 18, 2007 by AxelTheRed

[grandmarquis]

2008 Honda Accord = BIG f@#king snore.

It just goes to prove my theory that if you took the badges off of most Asian cars, you couldn't tell them apart. I would've thought this was a Kia or Hyundai if they hadn't told me it was a Honda.

Worse yet, if you put a Honda "H" on an AMC Pacer or an Aztek, the Hondahumpers would be all over themselves buying them up. IMHO they're worse than the Toyotahumpers at denial...

[Satty]

Have you ever driven a Honda? They're really not bad cars, maybe if you wren't so narrow minded you would know that the Honda humpers might actually have a reason for humping Hondas.

[z28luvr01]

I like it better than the current Accord. It is going to be quite a dogfight between this car, the Malibu, and the Camry - which by next year might actually be the worst midsizer out there.

[97regalGS]

I like it better than the current Accord. It is going to be quite a dogfight between this car, the Malibu, and the Camry - which by next year might actually be the worst midsizer out there.

it isn't going to be much of a fight. kind of like a Rottweiler taking on a German Shepard and a Beagle.

Model 2006 2005

Camry 448k 431k

Accord 354k 369k

Malibu 163k 203k

Edited May 18, 2007 by 97regalGS

[bowtie_dude]

Have you ever driven a Honda? They're really not bad cars, maybe if you wren't so narrow minded you would know that the Honda humpers might actually have a reason for humping Hondas.

I agree that Honda has a quality product, but I also agree with what they're saying. I don't care if a car was the most perfect car in every way imaginable, if it was ugly, I wouldn't buy it. Hondahumpers don't care. Slap an 'H' on the ugliest thing ever made, they fall all over themselves to get it, same thing with Toyotahumpers. I don't care WHO made it, if its ugly I won't buy it. Period. I'm simply not that brand loyal.

[bowtie_dude]

New photos.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/...photopanel..1.*

But really, just more of the same.

[The O.C.]

2008 Honda Accord = BIG f@#king snore.

It just goes to prove my theory that if you took the badges off of most Asian cars, you couldn't tell them apart. I would've thought this was a Kia or Hyundai if they hadn't told me it was a Honda.

The new Malibu isn't any sort of exciting design either.......

Attractive and modern, sure.....

But no more exciting than this new Accord.....

[GXT]

I agree that Honda has a quality product, but I also agree with what they're saying. I don't care if a car was the most perfect car in every way imaginable, if it was ugly, I wouldn't buy it. Hondahumpers don't care. Slap an 'H' on the ugliest thing ever made, they fall all over themselves to get it, same thing with Toyotahumpers. I don't care WHO made it, if its ugly I won't buy it. Period. I'm simply not that brand loyal.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps Accord buyers don't think that the Accord looks so bad... perhaps they even like it. Perhaps beauty to them is having lower payments on their next car because they have so much equity in their trade... or perhaps beauty is sleeping in a bit longer because you aren't running your car to the shop.

At least I understand them. What amazes me is how many people buy the current Malibu... it is uglier than the Accord/Camry without the additional benefits (reliability, quality, resale, etc.) that come with buying an Accord/Camry.

It would appear that a GMHumper humps harder than any Honda/Toyotahumper. :AH-HA_wink:

[bowtie_dude]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps Accord buyers don't think that the Accord looks so bad... perhaps they even like it. Perhaps beauty to them is having lower payments on their next car because they have so much equity in their trade... or perhaps beauty is sleeping in a bit longer because you aren't running your car to the shop.

At least I understand them. What amazes me is how many people buy the current Malibu... it is uglier than the Accord/Camry without the additional benefits (reliability, quality, resale, etc.) that come with buying an Accord/Camry.

It would appear that a GMHumper humps harder than any Honda/Toyotahumper. :AH-HA_wink:

Or that people will buy anything if the deal is sweet enough.

[regfootball]

Road and track. the mazdaspeed 3 was first than the GTI. The Civic drags its ass in third.

[pow]

It does look better in the new pictures... it has a more stately, luxury-car look. The body sculpting looks good.

[A Horse With No Name]

The GTI is a cool car and packaged very well...but Volkswagen reliability would be a major downer.

Chris

[grandmarquis]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps Accord buyers don't think that the Accord looks so bad... perhaps they even like it. Perhaps beauty to them is having lower payments on their next car because they have so much equity in their trade... or perhaps beauty is sleeping in a bit longer because you aren't running your car to the shop.

you're right... beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. i am sure there are more than a few men that think rosie o'donnell is the hottest woman they have ever seen. but does that really make it so? i think not. and as for that mythical honda reliability, my sister has poured WAY more money into her 150k 99 civic than i have into my 150k 95 grand marquis...

[Satty]

One instance doesn't make a trend or a fact, if it did than I could easily say that Toyotas are indeed more reliable than Saturns or Fords since the only money I put into my Solara was for a new timing belt (which did indeed suck, I probably could have milked the original timing belt for a few thousand more miles) while my Saturn had an AC compressor that went suicidal, had seat padding that didn't stay on the seat frame and my Fusion has been through like eleventeen radios, has lights that burn out prematurely and has the most pain-in-the-ass clutch I have ever droven. Oh, and the '93 Accord that I borrowed from my bro-in-law is still going strong with a $h! ton of miles, it got a new clutch a couple of months ago, I dont even recall the mileage but its got to be close to 275k.

[regfootball]

now that so many people are driving accords and camry's and not just the CR humpers, you'll start to see and hear more of the reality coming out. folks that bought these cars from reputation but have never owned one before.....there will be enough of those folks that will find out a car is a car. Toyotas and Hondas aren't perfect. Like CARBIZ says, they have skeletons in their closets too. Funny how Toyota had plenty of dough available to settle the sludge lawsuit before the press really got a hold of it. Honda's automatic tranny fiasco ranks up there with the worst lemon auto fiascos in the last 10-15 years.

[Dsuupr]

It's hard to tell from the spy shots, but from what I can see it looks as boring as accords of the past.

[enzl]

now that so many people are driving accords and camry's and not just the CR humpers, you'll start to see and hear more of the reality coming out. folks that bought these cars from reputation but have never owned one before.....there will be enough of those folks that will find out a car is a car. Toyotas and Hondas aren't perfect. Like CARBIZ says, they have skeletons in their closets too. Funny how Toyota had plenty of dough available to settle the sludge lawsuit before the press really got a hold of it. Honda's automatic tranny fiasco ranks up there with the worst lemon auto fiascos in the last 10-15 years.

Ironically (and unfortunately) it's that type of wishful thinking on the part of the domestics ('wait 'til next years model' or 'this is a Accord/Camry beater') that has resulted in the current situation.

Wishing somethinng to be true will never make it so.

The domestics need to push beyond competitive or they're dead.

No cars are perfect. But the domestics are just a smidge further from it than they need to be at this time.

I find it incredible that the most encouraging sign of domestics opportunity is in T/H/N's failure. That's not going to get those that abandoned the US automakers into showrooms.

[regfootball]

Ironically (and unfortunately) it's that type of wishful thinking on the part of the domestics ('wait 'til next years model' or 'this is a Accord/Camry beater') that has resulted in the current situation.

Wishing somethinng to be true will never make it so.

The domestics need to push beyond competitive or they're dead.

No cars are perfect. But the domestics are just a smidge further from it than they need to be at this time.

I find it incredible that the most encouraging sign of domestics opportunity is in T/H/N's failure. That's not going to get those that abandoned the US automakers into showrooms.

weed out the parisitic unions and parasitic dealer network and some new management and then they'd be able to make some progress. too many hadouts being given out to people in the chain that don't deserve em

[GXT]

now that so many people are driving accords and camry's and not just the CR humpers, you'll start to see and hear more of the reality coming out. folks that bought these cars from reputation but have never owned one before.....there will be enough of those folks that will find out a car is a car.

Have you seen the sales numbers for the Accord/Camry over the past couple of years? Who do you think was buying those cars? I'm sure there were a lot more OwnedACrappyGM than CRHumpers.

The reality is that Hondas/Toyotas are more reliable. So if you do believe that the reliability of a car will affect future purchases (and I agree), then GM will continue to lose sales.

An Accord buyer will have a car ~50% better than the class average in terms of reliability. A Malibu owner will have average reliability.

An S2000 buyer +40% vs a Solstic -185%.

Corolla ~+50% vs a Cobalt at ~-35%.

Sienna ~+30% vs a Uplander at -152%.

Highlander ~+50-75% vs an SRX at -152%.

etc.

No doubt GM's cars look a lot better than before and the powertrains are starting to get competitive on the higher-end models. But the reliability really hasn't improved. There are a lot mor OwnedACrappyGM people coming.

Edited May 21, 2007 by GXT

[Intrepidation]

Yes because those 500k Tundras with the wheels falling off are so reliable! But not as reliable as teh Camry that won't shift into gear!.

Funny, I don't recall a GM 6-speed having shifting issues..or a Ford...or even a Chrysler 6-speed. You know you suck when Chrysler has better transmissions than you.

And don't forget those sludging engines!

Edited May 21, 2007 by Dodgefan

[regfootball]

yeah, because they sell SO many s2000's....

nice numbers GXT. whose but did you pull those out of?

should be interesting to see how trashed all these rental camry's will be in two more years when they flood the market.

Edited May 21, 2007 by regfootball

[91z4me]

The reality is that Hondas/Toyotas WERE more reliable. So if you do believe that the reliability of a car will affect future purchases (and I agree), then GM will continue to lose sales.

There fixed that for you.

No doubt GM's cars look a lot better than before and the powertrains are starting to get competitive on the higher-end models. But the reliability really hasn't improved.

Where's your data to back up your assesment? Otherwise you guys arguing are just waving your weiners at each other talking about who's is bigger. Data or this 'arguement' is just a waste.

[Drew Dowdell]

Have you seen the sales numbers for the Accord/Camry over the past couple of years? Who do you think was buying those cars? I'm sure there were a lot more OwnedACrappyGM than CRHumpers.

The reality is that Hondas/Toyotas are more reliable. So if you do believe that the reliability of a car will affect future purchases (and I agree), then GM will continue to lose sales.

An Accord buyer will have a car ~50% better than the class average in terms of reliability. A Malibu owner will have average reliability.

An S2000 buyer +40% vs a Solstic -185%.

Corolla ~+50% vs a Cobalt at ~-35%.

Sienna ~+30% vs a Uplander at -152%.

Highlander ~+50-75% vs an SRX at -152%.

etc.

No doubt GM's cars look a lot better than before and the powertrains are starting to get competitive on the higher-end models. But the reliability really hasn't improved. There are a lot mor OwnedACrappyGM people coming.

I have a few points to make.

1. a Solstice owner will get 900% more nooky from owning a Solstice than an S2000 owner.

2. A Corolla owner has a 273% greater chance of crashing into Fly than a Cobalt owner.

3. Sienna's average selling price is 75% higher than Uplander's.

4. Highlander and SRX aren't even in the same league... and I want a link to that SRX number, the entire Sigma platform is know for being pretty reliable.

[Z-06]

Guys there is no point in arguing with GXT. He just pulls out numbers from his hiney and then hides off from the thread when asked for their sources.

He is yet to answer questions about Volt, Hybrids, etc.

He is a sadist who "coincidentally" hates GM.

[Intrepidation]

You forgot to mention he has no life, as he spends it pulling import bias loads out of his ass.

[FAPTurbo]

You forgot to mention he has no life, as he spends it pulling import bias loads out of his ass.

He DOES have fewer 'posting chevron's' and a much lower ranking than you and I...

So I'm going to be an asshole, and say that he can easily counter the 'no life' argument.

As for the whole reliability deal, my family bought a 2000 Toyota Sienna XLE, and one of the main reasons we bought it, was because Consumer Reports deemed it to be the best minivan we could buy (until the Odyssey showed up). It was also the perfect size, etc... Reliability was a main factor for us.

That van is on it's way out... we've had engine problems, especially with the injectors, a problem with the power sliding door, and quite a few other smaller, yet annoying issues. The van rattles something fierce, and even the little digital clock is half-busted. It only works intermittently, which isn't the biggest inconvenience, but it's still a b*tch at times.

My 1990 GMC truck has no such rattles, no corrosion, and has had NO issues with anything to do with the engine. The digital clock works just fine too, there's no dead pixels/dots either. Plus, the truck has certainly been thrown around quite a bit more, what with all the heavy pulling, towing, and cross country use it has endured. The ironic thing is, is that Consumer Reports always deemed the earlier Sierra's to be near junk, and a breeding gorund for issues in the coming years.

With this in mind, how can one accurately vouch for 'reliability' ?

[turbo200]

He DOES have fewer 'posting chevron's' and a much lower ranking than you and I...

So I'm going to be an asshole, and say that he can easily counter the 'no life' argument.

As for the whole reliability deal, my family bought a 2000 Toyota Sienna XLE, and one of the main reasons we bought it, was because Consumer Reports deemed it to be the best minivan we could buy (until the Odyssey showed up). It was also the perfect size, etc... Reliability was a main factor for us.

That van is on it's way out... we've had engine problems, especially with the injectors, a problem with the power sliding door, and quite a few other smaller, yet annoying issues. The van rattles something fierce, and even the little digital clock is half-busted. It only works intermittently, which isn't the biggest inconvenience, but it's still a b*tch at times.

My 1990 GMC truck has no such rattles, no corrosion, and has had NO issues with anything to do with the engine. The digital clock works just fine too, there's no dead pixels/dots either. Plus, the truck has certainly been thrown around quite a bit more, what with all the heavy pulling, towing, and cross country use it has endured. The ironic thing is, is that Consumer Reports always deemed the earlier Sierra's to be near junk, and a breeding gorund for issues in the coming years.

With this in mind, how can one accurately vouch for 'reliability' ?

this is merely one example. one situation. reliability is an average. Consumer Reports is a collection of the average, and they report which cars on average are the best. Since they are not the only source that beleives Toyota and Honda are the most reliable, it gives evidence to that fact.

One can accurately vouch for reliability when there is a consensus. All this arguing is simply silly when the facts don't change. The facts are out there for people to investigate, and they state Honda and Toyota are the most reliable. With that in mind, GM can only hope to be as reliable as T/H are. Right now they are behind, and the facts point to other automakers being less reliable than GM. Since they are not in the worst position, it is up to them to build desirable vehicles that will draw more consumers in to hopefully give them a chance at proving their reliability.

[FAPTurbo]

That's true, but I have first handedly come across people who have had similar instances as my family, however they mostly involve Toyota's. Honda's on the other hand, I cannot really fault because every experience I have had with Honda was positive, and people buy them over and over again. I don't see that as much with Toyota.

[91z4me]

this is merely one example. one situation. reliability is an average. Consumer Reports is a collection of the average, and they report which cars on average are the best. Since they are not the only source that beleives Toyota and Honda are the most reliable, it gives evidence to that fact.

One can accurately vouch for reliability when there is a consensus. All this arguing is simply silly when the facts don't change. The facts are out there for people to investigate, and they state Honda and Toyota are the most reliable. With that in mind, GM can only hope to be as reliable as T/H are. Right now they are behind, and the facts point to other automakers being less reliable than GM. Since they are not in the worst position, it is up to them to build desirable vehicles that will draw more consumers in to hopefully give them a chance at proving their reliability.

A little lite reading for you tonight.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

[Drew Dowdell]

A little lite reading for you tonight.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

Oh this should be good.....

I've always been curious why Toyota's sludge problems and Honda's automatic transmission problems seem to go unreported by CR.

[turbo200]

A little lite reading for you tonight.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

I knew that when I typed that post I would get someone responding with the old "statiscal problems" at CR. Does anyone really think this is news to me? I did say in the above post that it wasn't just CR that is a reporter of reliability averages, and that there is a consensus. There's even a consensus among the general public! In the sales figures! Wow, that's a crazy notion. People buying cars because they're built well and turning away in droves from cars that provided horrible expereinces. There's a consensus amongst auto mechanics! You get the lone wolf on C&G claiming all American cars are easier to work on than Hondas, but then you speak to every small time mechanic at the local shop with no affiliation whatsoever who swears by Japanese cars. There's also other industry sources besides CR that concur across the line Toyota and Honda have some of the best reliability everywhere.

Hey Oldsmoboi, when you mention the sludge problems and the Honda transmissions, don't forget to mention the Ford 3.8 gasket problem, the notorious 6 cyl Chrysler transmissions, the ever present missing headlight bulb on Chevy trucks, the unreliable Quad 2.2 engines, etc etc.....

And I thought I would have to put this "reading" away for sometime when I had a good amount of time to fully absorb it.

[91z4me]

I knew that when I typed that post I would get someone responding with the old "statiscal problems" at CR. Does anyone really think this is news to me? I did say in the above post that it wasn't just CR that is a reporter of reliability averages, and that there is a consensus. There's even a consensus among the general public! In the sales figures! Wow, that's a crazy notion. People buying cars because they're built well and turning away in droves from cars that provided horrible expereinces. There's a consensus amongst auto mechanics! You get the lone wolf on C&G claiming all American cars are easier to work on than Hondas, but then you speak to every small time mechanic at the local shop with no affiliation whatsoever who swears by Japanese cars. There's also other industry sources besides CR that concur across the line Toyota and Honda have some of the best reliability everywhere.

Does JD Powers agree that GM is behind? How about Ford? Wasn't there a study done recently that put the Fusion ABOVE Camry and Accord?

Hey Oldsmoboi, when you mention the sludge problems and the Honda transmissions, don't forget to mention the Ford 3.8 gasket problem, the notorious 6 cyl Chrysler transmissions, the ever present missing headlight bulb on Chevy trucks, the unreliable Quad 2.2 engines, etc etc.....

Sure problems from the past can be brought up for fun. But how about we talk about current stuff. Toyota, GM, and all the big players have large amounts of recalls. What do we know? The GMT900s, Lambdas, revised Impala have launched w/out a hitch. The current F150, Mustang, 500, and Fusion all without problems.

The Avalon and Camry launches both had problems w/ transmissions (IIRC). The Tundra seems to be doing quite well and I hope it doesn't fall flat on its face because they are in a new high volume plant w/ many new employees. If they were smart they would slow growth and make sure quality is up before rushing out to be #1.

[Intrepidation]

That's a fun read...especially this, another example of CR's poor testing methods:

In July 1996, Consumer Reports tested motor oils for their readers, but instead of using normal cars, they used New York City taxis, which are normally run 24 hours a day and never allowed to cool down - which means that the most strenuous test of motor oil, the cold start (which causes most engine damage), occured rarely, if ever, during their testing. They found no difference between any of the motor oils, from the cheapest to the best synthetic, and concluded that all “natural” oils are interchangeable, but that synthetics still hold an advantage for some drivers. The idea that the research was meaningless because their research methods were horribly flawed was not brought up; nor did they go to the natural conclusion that if they couldn't tell the difference between Mobil One and the cheapest oil on the shelf, they probably couldn't use that research model to tell whether individual natural oils were different in quality.

[turbo200]

Does JD Powers agree that GM is behind? How about Ford? Wasn't there a study done recently that put the Fusion ABOVE Camry and Accord?

Sure problems from the past can be brought up for fun. But how about we talk about current stuff. Toyota, GM, and all the big players have large amounts of recalls. What do we know? The GMT900s, Lambdas, revised Impala have launched w/out a hitch. The current F150, Mustang, 500, and Fusion all without problems.

The Avalon and Camry launches both had problems w/ transmissions (IIRC). The Tundra seems to be doing quite well and I hope it doesn't fall flat on its face because they are in a new high volume plant w/ many new employees. If they were smart they would slow growth and make sure quality is up before rushing out to be #1.

We can agree that all across the board carmakers are making better cars than ever. We can agree that sometimes there seems to be a bias at Consumer Reports in their reporting methods, though this would need to be substantiated with further investigation for it to be fully true and for me to stand behind it on that. We can agree that recalls and quality problems can happen to any company, regardless of country of origin.

We cannot agree, I guess if you won't concede this, that Honda and Toyota are known for reliable cars that don't break down and in general give less problems than the competition from GM, in the past, and that in this present time we do not know enough about the reliability of GM's newest products to quantify them with anything, but we can say with certainty that based on the past records, Toyota and Honda will continue to make bullet proof products, barring miniscule cases all seemingly revolved around the C&G universe. If you cannot agree with these statements I've made then you are disavowing the fact of so many buyers have migrated from American cars to other makes, and why they have applied the "reliability formula" to all Japanese cars, as inherently superior than what us Americans can make.

The JD Power thing was for initial quality only, I can make a car with great initial quality even. Give me long term reliability reports and you will have my ear, that is what people care about and why they left GM/Ford/Chrysler in the first place.