GM to raise non-U.S. sales above 60%

[Camino LS6]

The domestics have been hemmed-in by ever increasing regulation and unfair foreign competition for decades now. Additonally, there is a social undercurrent spurred by popular culture that lionizes everything Japanese and promotes the self-hate of Americans. To lay the blame at the feet of the domestics while ignoring the external conditions over which they have no control is absurd. The fact that they still exist at all is amazing in light of their unfair burdens.

It is the greed and power of the "personal profit at all costs" mentality of Wall Street for short-term results while mortgaging the future that are the financial engine of disaster. Long-term, we are heading for the permanent decline in our standard of living if nothing is done.

[regfootball]

The domestics have been hemmed-in by ever increasing regulation and unfair foreign competition for decades now. Additonally, there is a social undercurrent spurred by popular culture that lionizes everything Japanese and promotes the self-hate of Americans. To lay the blame at the feet of the domestics while ignoring the external conditions over which they have no control is absurd. The fact that they still exist at all is amazing in light of their unfair burdens.

It is the greed and power of the "personal profit at all costs" mentalityof Wall Street for short-term results while mortgaging the future that are the financial engine of disaster. Long-term, we are heading for the permanent decline in our standard of living if nothing is done.[/b]

and disregarding that there is a responsibility businesses have to contribute back to the communities and countries in which they do business and operate.

Edited May 9, 2007 by regfootball

[haypops]

Japan does not allow imports of finished products.

Saturn sold cars in Japan for several years. I assume GM choose Saturn because of the availability of right hand drive and although the cars were small by American standards they were more than generous for Japan where many families own at least one car of less than 600 cc engine displacement.

Naivete is going to get us as nations nowhere. The U.S.' current account deficit cannot be sustained forever. At some point the bill will come due

I don't think Corollas made in California are the problem as much as increased CAFE or the imposition of a decreased national speed limit is the solution (imported oil is the a major part of our balance of trade deficit).

Calls of "xenophobia" (a cute term for "racist") won't wash with me

While it wasn't you (CARBIZ) a couple of posters have put forward the idea that it is OK for them to buy a BMW because of their German heritage. Other posters express particular disdain for Asian Americans that drive a Camry or Civic. Poor me I never drove a Tribant. :AH-HA_wink:

[enzl]

WardsAuto.com, I couldn't have said it better.

Calls of "xenophobia" (a cute term for "racist") won't wash with me. As I have tirelessly said, Japan does not allow imports of finished products. It blocks them at every turn. I don't give a damn where a vehicle/MP3 player/T-shirt/toaster is built, as long as the originating country is not playing footloose with trade rules. China is currently appearing to be all nice-nice because they need our technology, so we can be friends. For now.

Naivete is going to get us as nations nowhere. The U.S.' current account deficit cannot be sustained forever. At some point the bill will come due. The only choice Americans have is whether they want a little pain now, or a lot of pain later. I would love to believe in the noble aspiration that we can elevate others to our standard of living, but in a future where increasingly hostile nations are vying for increasingly diminishing natural resources we could be commiting suicide, literally.

I'd like to know exactly how the "domestics" left the back door open? I'd suggest that members here who are particularly fond of all things Japanese to bone up on MITI in Japan: what their function is, mandate, etc. Dig deep, because the truth won't be in glossy publications. For example, why are Japanese consumers propping up the banking system so that multi-nationals can enjoy 0-interest loans? If GM is "off-shoring" its manufacturing at this juncture, who can blame them? If Washington is not going to wake up to what Japan Inc is doing, as a matter of survival GM and others have no choice. It is the voters (and unemployed) who should speak up! Sadly, as long as middle-class America (and Canada) has their pizza and their remote controls, they are content to ignore the decline around them.

We have all made choices in our lives. Some that we are proud of, some that we rationalize. I am happy that my life is portable enough that if confronted with the choice of selling out my country, I can refuse. I sympathise for those who may have made choices in the past, that although they may have seemed harmless at the time, are now only coming to light as having been far more insidious. But then the human condition allows us to rationalize almost anything, from a simple car buying decision, to choosing to purchase "hot" computer because it is a good deal, without regard to who we may be hurting.

I enjoy this debate and I refuse to be dragged into name calling and insults. My skin is thicker than that and I am confident that I will have history on my side. I just wish that I was wrong.

1. You sound like a racist. That's my call.

2. MITI has the Japanese gov't behind it. If Japanese concerns ignored the advantages provided, they'd be fools.

3. Back Door= Crap product until competition drove them to improve.

4. 'Choice' isn't just about buying something, its about creating something. Like Jobs. Which I provide for others everyday. How could one be more patriotic than employing another American?

If GM is shedding jobs here and adding them in Korea, China, India or eastern Europe, then, by your standards, they're doing something wrong. So, should you buy a GM and support that? Your logic has that one, huge flaw---I say, buy the best, let entrepreneurs create jobs in new ways (as always) and sit back with your remote and pizza (as I guarantee, your remote wasn't made in the US),,,or just get up and change the channel the old fashioned way!

People like you stifle those that see the future. You hide behind empty logic that doesn't apply and live in the past...It doesn't work, my friend.

[CSpec]

Which reminds me, Hershey is shutting down plants in Canada and the USA and moving them to Mexico. When they open that Mexican plant is the day I stop eating Hershey products.

Why are Canadian people better than Mexican people?

[Flybrian]

Why is Canadian government better than Mexican government?

That's your answer.

[FloydHendershot]

Toyotas profit forecast is the lowest its been in almost a decade. That just might be a sign of things getting worse in north America

but realistically the way trade is set up it makes more sense to export than to import.

There are markets that are still growing and will continue to grow and with such a close race to be number one(for whatever reason) these growth markets are just as relevant.

[CARBIZ]

"1. You sound like a racist. That's my call. "

Name calling, the last resort of the incompetent, that's my call. For the record, I lived with a black man for 4 years, and dated a Hong Kong pop star about 5 years ago. YOU don't know me, so try sticking to the facts and don't resort to name calling.

Bully for you that you created jobs for Americans, but if any of those jobs are involved in selling Japanese made vehicles, then those jobs are part of the problem, not the solution. Or apparently you haven't paid any attention to the numerous studies, articles, etc. written on the decline of the American auto industry, posted on this very site, which has resulted in the disruption of hundreds of thousands of lives, while Japan Inc opens the odd plant here and there. On the one hand it is great that your little bubble, your corner of the world is doing great, but many, many industrialand white collar jobs are being lost in both our countries due to "free trade," yet Japan's trade is anything but. There is no denying that. Their markets are not open. That is plain and simple. Their people are suffering for it, too, by paying higher food prices and lousy bank rates; however, they are a tiny, paranoid nation that has to import most of its materials, so exporting value-added goods is what it needs to do for survival.

Again , Japan blocks imports. Try to buy up property or a company in Japan - not easy. Ask Toys R Us.

So, to end this (increasingly) pointless discussion, buying Japanese = bad (due to unfair and lopsided trade policies), not because I am racist, bigoted, ignorant, foolish or any number colorful (but tired) adjectives people want to hurl around.

[haypops]

Again , Japan blocks imports. Try to buy up property or a company in Japan - not easy. Ask Toys R Us.

Wouldn't the sale of parts or all of every Japanese car manufacturer except Honda and Toyota say otherwise(Nissan, Suzuki, Isuzu, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Mazda)

[CARBIZ]

Ah, but the secret is "parts" of the companies are foreign-owned or controlled. Does Ford "own" Mazda? No. MITI screens every sale/purchase. Foreign nationals must form "partnerships" and "alliances." This way, they get our trade secrets, experties, technology, without losing any of theirs. China even has two sets of stocks that can be sold; one for real Chinese and one for the rest of us.

Nobody ever said that the Japanese are stupid. Of course, they have to appear reasonable. Canadian newspapers are full of headlines these days about one national company after another (HBC, Abitibi, and now possibly Alcan) are being sold lock, stock and barrel to foreign companies. Even though there are some restrictions on sales to foreigners of companies and assets, there are no such restrictions on owning property here.

[enzl]

"1. You sound like a racist. That's my call. "

Name calling, the last resort of the incompetent, that's my call. For the record, I lived with a black man for 4 years, and dated a Hong Kong pop star about 5 years ago. YOU don't know me, so try sticking to the facts and don't resort to name calling.

Bully for you that you created jobs for Americans, but if any of those jobs are involved in selling Japanese made vehicles, then those jobs are part of the problem, not the solution. Or apparently you haven't paid any attention to the numerous studies, articles, etc. written on the decline of the American auto industry, posted on this very site, which has resulted in the disruption of hundreds of thousands of lives, while Japan Inc opens the odd plant here and there. On the one hand it is great that your little bubble, your corner of the world is doing great, but many, many industrialand white collar jobs are being lost in both our countries due to "free trade," yet Japan's trade is anything but. There is no denying that. Their markets are not open. That is plain and simple. Their people are suffering for it, too, by paying higher food prices and lousy bank rates; however, they are a tiny, paranoid nation that has to import most of its materials, so exporting value-added goods is what it needs to do for survival.

Again , Japan blocks imports. Try to buy up property or a company in Japan - not easy. Ask Toys R Us.

So, to end this (increasingly) pointless discussion, buying Japanese = bad (due to unfair and lopsided trade policies), not because I am racist, bigoted, ignorant, foolish or any number colorful (but tired) adjectives people want to hurl around.

Blame anyone you want. Part of Detroit's problem is that everyone else is to blame: The Gov't with safety, emissions or currency, the Japanese transplants with their lack of legacy baggage, the press with its Media Bias...its a joke, whether you're aware of it or not.

Again, you've avoided the principal flaw in your argument: If GM, Ford or DCX are no longer, net/net creating jobs for Americans, then your logic dictates that YOU should no longer support them.

Again, you've avoided the other problem with your stance: Japan is a country, the companies that are based there are USING Japanese policy (currency, prime rate & gov't healthcare) to their advantage. I'm not sure why they shouldn't.

David Halberstram laid out the future of the domestics back in the 80's with The Reckoning...so there's been plenty of advance notice, if anyone in charge was paying attention. They obviously didn't.

Umm, and as far as your other points: Unemployment is at a near all time, historical low here in the states....so that flow of jobs out of the country has clearly been replaced with something....Union membership is less than half of all time highs, so these people must have gotten jobs somewhere.

And, as a final nail in your perspective: The US does business with all kinds of questionable countries, with corrupt regimes & oppressive social climates: China, Every Middle Eastern oil producing nation on the planet, Russia & the CIS, Venezuela, et al...if you're going to single out Japan, an ally, a democracy, a peaceful nation, an intellectual powerhouse and a producer of some of the world's finest, most sophisticated products...

Then I just can't agree with you. Flawed argument, twisted logic and questionable theory is an indication of either ignorance or craziness. I'm not sure which, but some anecdote about your 'friends' being this or that doesn't mean anything to me.

Oh, & BTW, would my argument have anymore weight with you if I told you our flagship store was a US make? Or that we sell more of that make than anyone in our region? Or that we recently purchased not 1, but 2 mutiple franschises that were entirely US makes? (Both of which we rescued from the gutter like a lost puppy.) Or that our company will sell more cars this month than most franchises sell in a decade?

If you really believe that selling Japanese (and I've noticed that Korean and europeans are conspiculously absent) vehicles is somehow wrong or employing Americans in this endevour is unworthy, I find it hard to believe even this site's populous would support that view.

We live in a world growing smaller by the day. You better get used to it. Buy what you want to buy, but I doubt much of the clothes on your back, the electronics in your house or probably the supplies to build your home were made here. You're about 20 years behind the reality of global economics---and it sounds like you're angrily unaware of it.

[regfootball]

blame the California government for starting the whole 'we gotta be special' deal on special regulations (emissions). Perhaps if the folks in that state would simply practice lifestyle changes (i.e. too many people living there and driving 100 mile round trip to work) perhaps self important regulations like their bozo emissions standards would not be needed. Emissions should be regulated at the federal level if we are going to make regulatory standards we will hold all carmakers to.

I find it curious that someone would find the entire outsourcing of all our manufacturing (clothes, electronics, and now apparently cars too) to be an entirely good thing to not even have a second thought about.

While some would brush it off and simply say, "we don't want those jobs here anyways", the flip side of that is "why can't we keep some jobs like that here" and grow the economy in addition to all the other fluff jobs (i.e. marketing, sales, banking, finance, 'management', etc.)". An argument can be made either way for anything. It would seem to make sense that there is some point where building crap half way around the globe and expensing the wasteful energy and resources to put it on the boat and ship back is pointless and unproductive, as much as it is raping the land and an excess waste of time of which some folks could be doing other things more worthwhile. Or, to rip on people for having things made over in China with power plants charged by electricity from heavily polluting plants they have over there. the greenies ought to make a case against that.

Why the hell do we need to erect millions of square feet of useless real estate to sell cars at? We've overvalued all that retail property that the dealer cartel father owns, because of its visibility and access, simply to have a visible spot to park a bunch of cars (which are sold by questionable operations that are protected by monopolistic franchise agreements.....the protectionism right here that no one seems to talk about but they are otherwise against protectionism anyways when it doesn't apply to them).

We live in a day and age where in reality, most folks would rather do away with large dealers and simply pick a car off the internet direct from the manufacturer. Ask the consumer and they probably would give a rats ass if 80% of the dealers shut down.

Nothing that a couple simple test drive centers couldn't handle and a few service garages sprinkled all over town. These massive lots chewing up space to park overpriced cars (overpriced because the excessive overhead built into running excessive amounts and size of car dealerships) would be better served to everyone on this planet if were used for other purposes like housing and public facilities. Instead we have to look at these unattractive eyesore sprawling buildings that only add to the price of my car.

Kinda similar to the idea that unions put undo overhead on the manufacturing process. All this overhead is on the sales side. I think it's about time we outsource all that function and streamline the system to get rid of all those excess middlemen, or send their work overseas. We don't need to have the finance manager here. We don't need to have the dealership manager live here. If they are the ones helping me select the car and making sure my needs are getting met, that's fine. But I surely don't need to pay for the excessive amounts of sales managers, and all the slop in the system that comes with having to have to bear the inventory charge of all these competing dealers and their inventory and labor and land costs and advertising costs when I could simply spec out the car on line and have it made to order and shipped directly to me on short lead time from the factory where it is parked a in simple efficient parking multistory structure.

where is the lean production and the outsourcing and the cost reduction on the sales and marketing and management side? At some point we cannot justify their waste in the equation too. Send it overseas.

Since we're cutting everyone's throat here, why don't just do that? Do you think people really give a rat's ass who the franchise owner is? Red McCombs, Denny hecker, John Elway, whoever, car buyers in no way want to put money into these guys' pockets. Let's get rid of these middle men. They deserve nothing from me when i could just as easily have the car shipped to me from GM itself.

As much as I like it, why do we even need the receptionist or service cashier? You know, at every car dealer they hire the gal willing to sit at a desk, below eye level with her big breasts spilling out of the shirt she was told to wear or wears voluntarily because that was what qualified her for the job.

Let's outsource it all. The people in China and India and Japan will figure out a way to take those once untouchable sales, marketing, and management jobs as well as technical jobs that are already going over there.

It doesn't seem to ring to some until it hits home. Someday it will happen. Let it happen to those that are fine with the outsourcing and 'moving production elsewhere'. you don't want to care if it happens to others so it must be fine if it happens to yourself, your family, town, state, country too.

free trade is great if it's also fair and equal trade.

Edited May 10, 2007 by regfootball

[haypops]

blame the California government for starting the whole 'we gotta be special' deal on special regulations (emissions). Perhaps if the folks in that state would simply practice lifestyle changes (i.e. too many people living there and driving 100 mile round trip to work) perhaps self important regulations like their bozo emissions standards would not be needed. Emissions should be regulated at the federal level if we are going to make regulatory standards we will hold all carmakers to.

Let's not blame California and the life style of its citizens. Let's instead blame it on the people who blame California. Turn around is fair play. Los Angeles is the largest market for both Chevrolet and GMC. However you people in Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, etc. are the economic engine that feeds Toyota. That is where Toyota makes it's most profits. In practicality California hasn't had special emission regulation since the 70's. California is joined by many states in the north east who don't like it when the rust belt states flush their toilet and the northeast gets $h! on (figuratively). Together California and these states probably represent at least a third of the population. Why the concern for the citizens of Michigan alone. Did the citizens of Michigan buy U.S. made shoes exclusively. I doubt it. They told the citizens of Brockton Massachusetts to go f@#k themselves. Do you Midwest patriots buy American made coustome jewelry or did you tell the citizens of Providence Rhode Island to go f@#k themselves.

It has been 200 years since the colonies decided to unite and promote commerce between each other. It isn't helpful to go backward and it isn't helpful to declare special dispensations for yourself because your grandparents came from somewhere else. We are better than that.

[regfootball]

like it or not, CA still pushes the idiotic agendas that result in things like no diesels coming to America.

it would be more productive for the auto industry as a whole of any orientation if CA would exercise lifestyle restraint to curb emissions and power usage instead of creating more and more but forcing all the other states to subsidize the development of that stuff. You want your car to put out half as much CO2? Move halfways closer to work.

Sure, that does go for the fruitcake population in some areas/states in the northeast, too. Thanks to all that bunch we have overly complex emissions systems that drive up all our fuel and car prices big time. Emissions regulations should only be determined by the feds, then all carmakers would have a much better chance at making a buck. Who cares if it's 33% of the population, which its likely not. I don't think someone in the middle of Kansas should have to pay for Mercedes developing a bizarro exhaust system just to be able to sell a few diesels around here.

In fact, the standards for emissions and crash testing should be global standards. It would help all the global car companies save time and money re-engineering and testing solutions specific to each country. Then if someplace like Cali decides they want to be special, we can just simply say, sorry, you don't meet OUR standard. Keep it federal. If it meets federal standards then it should be saleable in every state.