GM to raise non-U.S. sales above 60%

[Flybrian]

GM to raise non-U.S. sales above 60%
CEO Rick Wagoner says he hopes the increase doesn't come at the expense of domestic sales
Greg Bensinger | Bloomberg News | Link to Original Article @ DetNews

General Motors Corp. plans to increase sales outside the U.S. to more than 60 percent of the company's total, as its domestic sales decline.

The automaker reached 60 percent in the first quarter because of increases in China and other emerging markets.

"That number is just going to continue to grow," Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner said Friday on a conference call from New York.

"I hope not by reducing our sales in the U.S."

GM may lose lead to Toyota

GM expects to sell 9.2 million vehicles worldwide this year, company sales analyst Paul Ballew said on the call.

It would be Detroit-based GM's highest total since 9.55 million in 1978.

That may not be enough to fend off a challenge for the annual global sales lead from Toyota Motor Corp., which has forecast sales of 9.34 million vehicles this year.

Toyota sold 2.35 million vehicles worldwide in the first quarter, beating GM's 2.26 million and threatening the U.S. company's 76-year reign as the world's biggest automaker.

GM hasn't had an annual sales gain in the U.S. since 1999 and got 55 percent of its total outside its home market last year.

The U.S. sales declines contributed to $12.4 billion in losses the past two years.

GM said first-quarter profit fell 90 percent to $62 million.

Markets outside the U.S. may eventually account for two- thirds of the company's vehicle sales, Ballew said.

Forecasting a record

"We will do well over 5 million units this year outside the U.S. market," he said. "That will be an all-time record for us." Last year, such sales totaled 4.2 million.

GM's sales in its Asia-Pacific region probably will rise to 1.5 million this year. Ballew said. The region's total last year was 1.26 million.

During the past six weeks, GM has "seen some softness in large-truck sales in the U.S.," mainly because of rising gasoline prices, Ballew said.

The company's large sport-utility vehicles have been most affected, he said. GM on May 1 reported April declines of 26 percent for the GMC Yukon large SUV and 12 percent for the similar-sized Chevrolet Tahoe.

GM's 8.375 percent note due July 2033 fell 0.44 cent to 91 cents on the dollar, yielding 9.3 percent, according to Trace, the NASD's bond-price reporting service.

[enzl]

Mmmm. seems I beat 'em to the story?

2.b. GM's success elsewhere (including more sales outside the US than here at home in '06) means that, eventually, GM will move even more of its production out of the US. Will you be humping their leg when 60%, 70% or 80% of GM's production is not made in the US? Maybe you should be critiquing GM's awful management and product decisions that resulted in the loss of jobs...or their decision to spin off Delphi and throw Americans out of good jobs....

On may 2,

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry277503

[ellives]

Mmmm. seems I beat 'em to the story?

2.b. GM's success elsewhere (including more sales outside the US than here at home in '06) means that, eventually, GM will move even more of its production out of the US. Will you be humping their leg when 60%, 70% or 80% of GM's production is not made in the US? Maybe you should be critiquing GM's awful management and product decisions that resulted in the loss of jobs...or their decision to spin off Delphi and throw Americans out of good jobs....

On may 2,

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry277503

GM doesn't exist to provide jobs. I really don't get why people don't understand this fact. If they could build and sell 10 million cars a year without hiring a single person they would and in fact should if they are representing their shareholders properly.

No company exists to provide jobs and simply existing entitles you to nothing. Not a job. Not a pension. Not health care. NOTHING.

[Flybrian]

If foreign sales %s continue to rise because more cars are sold, excellent news.

If foreign sales %s continue to rise because cars sold overseas are making up for falling domestic sales, not so good news.

[thegriffon]

Misleading headlines. GM plans to increase sales outside NA to more than 60% (already reached), by increasing sales overseas rather than by losing sles in the US. The growth strategy will not cause lost sales in the US, but the proportion of sales will increase if they do. Remember, vehicle development is the biggest proportion of a new product introduction. Upgrading or even building a plant is relatively cheap. From now on almost every model GM invests in to fuel international sales in China, India, Europe or South America will be the core of a North American vehicle program. E.g. demand for a true compact SUV in South America and Europe means the US will get one too. It does not take away from investment in the US.

[VenSeattle]

Misleading headlines. GM plans to increase sales outside NA to more than 60% (already reached), by increasing sales overseas rather than by losing sles in the US. The growth strategy will not cause lost sales in the US, but the proportion of sales will increase if they do. Remember, vehicle development is the biggest proportion of a new product introduction. Upgrading or even building a plant is relatively cheap. From now on almost every model GM invests in to fuel international sales in China, India, Europe or South America will be the core of a North American vehicle program. E.g. demand for a true compact SUV in South America and Europe means the US will get one too. It does not take away from investment in the US.

But... But... Enzl said so?

Mmmm. seems I beat 'em to the story?

2.b. GM's success elsewhere (including more sales outside the US than here at home in '06) means that, eventually, GM will move even more of its production out of the US. Will you be humping their leg when 60%, 70% or 80% of GM's production is not made in the US? Maybe you should be critiquing GM's awful management and product decisions that resulted in the loss of jobs...or their decision to spin off Delphi and throw Americans out of good jobs....

On may 2,

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry277503

I'm not a GM owner because GM is American or because GM employs Americans. Some might be, but there is nothing wrong with national pride.

I like GM's products, GM's historical achievements (domestic and international), and the culture that surrounds GM.

Regardless if you're a GM dealer principle, sales man, whatever, I'll tell you this right now: If you continue to creatively spin news just to insult C&G board members, loyal GM buyers, and GM in general just for the sake of it, you're hurting your own personal buying public who visit this site as well as negatively impacting one of the purposes for this forum. You will be banned. I promise. You can continue insulting GM, the products you peddle, blindly-loyal car enthusiasts, etc at other fan boards like templeofvtec.com or toyotanation.com... just not here. Trust me, you'll find just as many - if not more - leg humpers on those boards who need the veil pulled back to expose the wizard for what he truly is.

[enzl]

But... But... Enzl said so?

I'm not a GM owner because GM is American or because GM employs Americans. Some might be, but there is nothing wrong with national pride.

I like GM's products, GM's historical achievements (domestic and international), and the culture that surrounds GM.

Regardless if you're a GM dealer principle, sales man, whatever, I'll tell you this right now: If you continue to creatively spin news just to insult C&G board members, loyal GM buyers, and GM in general just for the sake of it, you're hurting your own personal buying public who visit this site as well as negatively impacting one of the purposes for this forum. You will be banned. I promise. You can continue insulting GM, the products you peddle, blindly-loyal car enthusiasts, etc at other fan boards like templeofvtec.com or toyotanation.com... just not here. Trust me, you'll find just as many - if not more - leg humpers on those boards who need the veil pulled back to expose the wizard for what he truly is.

Don't like what I have to say? Banning me won't solve GM's problems...I'm just pointing out logical inconsistencies.

For instance, more overseas spending and Cash crunch = less $ for US product, Why do you think Impala was delayed on the heels of a massive investment in GMDAT?

What I do should be immaterial. The only reason I mention it is to point out that reality from the fanbase might help reality sink in over at the RenCen. It's time for Rick to go....the product cadence that should have raised overall retail sales is falling short of projections. The GMT900's were pulled ahead to avoid a cash crunch.

VS--If you actually read and undestood my posts, you'd see they were realistic, not anti...but feel free to get rid of me if you must. Ostrich.

Edited May 6, 2007 by enzl

[thegriffon]

The massive investment in GMDAT will produce products that will be built and sold in North America, if not the US, starting with the 2008 Saturn Vue. More are on the way, and not just a replacement for the Aveo (the only one to stay an import). Don't forget every Daewoo is a Chevrolet, and that GM is eliminating duplication of effort worldwide.

[thegriffon]

What is GM Daewoo spending the money on? A new 6-speed fwd auto (MH8) for compact cars (GM's in-house effort, displacing the 5- and 6-speed Aisin-Warner units as well as the GM and ZF 4-speeds); a new global compact based on the next European platform; an Epsilon II-based Epica replacement for global markets (to battle the Passat and Mondeo); a larger midsize sedan (subsituting for the VE in Korea and where the latter is not a Chevrolet); and the next Aveo (and the underpinnings for the next, US-certifiable, Corsa). North American engineers and designers will be involved in these efforts (part of a 24/7 global engineering organisation), even if they are not explicitly North American programs. Similarly, a big investment in developing new models for GM China means—new Buicks. Investment in new Opels means—new Saturns. If fuel prices rise enough you may even get the next minicar(s.

[thegriffon]

Just because it doesn't sound like investment for North America, doesn't mean it isn't.

[ellives]

But... But... Enzl said so?

I'm not a GM owner because GM is American or because GM employs Americans. Some might be, but there is nothing wrong with national pride.

I like GM's products, GM's historical achievements (domestic and international), and the culture that surrounds GM.

Regardless if you're a GM dealer principle, sales man, whatever, I'll tell you this right now: If you continue to creatively spin news just to insult C&G board members, loyal GM buyers, and GM in general just for the sake of it, you're hurting your own personal buying public who visit this site as well as negatively impacting one of the purposes for this forum. You will be banned. I promise. You can continue insulting GM, the products you peddle, blindly-loyal car enthusiasts, etc at other fan boards like templeofvtec.com or toyotanation.com... just not here. Trust me, you'll find just as many - if not more - leg humpers on those boards who need the veil pulled back to expose the wizard for what he truly is.

This post threatening a ban was ridiculous. Based on what? Something being said you don't like? Ban me too while you're at it. You must have worked on the Patriot Act.

[enzl]

The massive investment in GMDAT will produce products that will be built and sold in North America, if not the US, starting with the 2008 Saturn Vue. More are on the way, and not just a replacement for the Aveo (the only one to stay an import). Don't forget every Daewoo is a Chevrolet, and that GM is eliminating duplication of effort worldwide.

...which means MORE vehicles and parts being built overseas, thus LESS U.S. Jobs available...

Is an American car made in China. Tailand or Korea really an American car?

GMDAT will supply small vehicles to the states. The Aveo has sold 80k copies in its best year? So, in exchange for seeing the Buick, Chevy and other Zetas One year or more late, we're going to get some rebadged B-cars. Excuse me for not being enthused.

The Vue is a fantastic example of what the future holds. Developed in Korea, Built in Mexico, the Vue's Spring Hill plant is off line for a year....and actually, they're much luckier than most situations, as they finally have a future product replacing Saturn production.

I don't recall seeing the Park Avenue that the Chinese have, nor their superior LaCrosse in US showrooms, so those investments are not, currently, helping Buick and their sales/relevance freefall.

I don't believe that more jobs or more product is coming to NA. There will be less jobs, benefits and less communities getting GM money for infrastructure or tax base.

Believe what you want. The BS about global development really means 'Less here, more where its cheaper.'

Ironic as the dreaded, awful Asians continue to built plants, engineering centers and dealerships across the US. (But those aren't 'real' jobs, right? )

[CARBIZ]

I do like you math, Enzl. 12,000 Canadian parts jobs have been lost in the past 3 years, according to the National Post a couple days ago. Ford and GM laid off 2,400 workers while Toyota opens a new plant in Woodstock that will....get ready for this, HIRE 900.

IS THAT SIMPLE ENOUGH MATH FOR YOU? Ontario is just damned lucky enough to have a few of the GM vehicles that are doing well in terms of sales. What choice would GM have, really? Washington is not getting the message that Japan Inc is hiding behind subsidized health care in Japan and, yes, Canada. They are hiding behind an artifically low yen, interest free business loans in Japan (paid for by the hapless consumers in Japan and their creaky banking system) and the benefits of having watched all of Detroit's stumbles and burdens of the past and being able to avoid them. Oh, all the while not having any serious competition in their own home market.

If GM can open factories in Australia or Korea or Indian and ship the vehicles here, and Washington is stupid enough to allow that, too, then more power to GM! Haven't you heard of the old adage: If you can't beat'em, join 'em? America's open markets are pricing itself right out of existence! Given China's rate of growth, in less than 10 years China will be the world's largest economy. Give over the auto market to Japan now, so China can take it in 15 years. Either way, until there is some semblance of a true fair market, and until import humpers everywhere stop being so f@#kING SELFISH, the bloodletting is going to continue until every single one of us is out of a job.

This is about survival. Sure, GM should have seen this coming 20 years ago when the first Japanese transplant factories started opening - they should have seen that Detroit was bound to lose its influence in Washington, but who among us would have believed 30 years ago, or even 20 years ago that Japan Inc was going to be a serious threat to Detroit? Could GM or Ford have stood up to the UAW in the '80s and said NO to their gold-plated pension plans or health care? Kudos should be given to Detroit for recognizing the truck market in the early '90s and seizing on that, but they weren't planning for the next Big Thing - whatever that will be.

America is losing its pre-eminence on all fronts. Detroit knows that. By all indications, China and India will be the biggest auto markets in the coming years. Perhaps GM will soldier on as an American owned company that operates almost solely in China, wouldn't that be just desserts?

[ehaase]

but who among us would have believed 30 years ago, or even 20 years ago that Japan Inc was going to be a serious threat to Detroit?

I'm old enough (43) to have believed 20 or 30 years ago that Japan Inc was going to be a serious threat to Detroit.

[enzl]

I'm old enough (43) to have believed 20 or 30 years ago that Japan Inc was going to be a serious threat to Detroit.

"The Reckoning" by the recently deceased D. Halberstram, was published, IIRC, in the 80's.

Perhaps a read by some on this board would be intructive?

CARBIZ--just one, philosophical question: If GM is adding jobs elsewhere and cutting them here, why should I root for them? (BTW-the key stat you site is that somone was ADDING jobs, not sending them to a 3rd world country so that Lutz' golden parachute gets paid. Also, there are tons of US co.'s kicking ass and innovating? Ever spend time in Sillicon Valley or the Financial Centers in NYC? There are plenty of US co.'s paying great wages to citizens....The myopic, 'just good enough' nature of the Big 2.5 has come home to roost. The upheaval is life threatening for these hallowed American institutions. The difference between you and me is that I think the response is inadequate, you obviously think that they're doing well---but we're both fans.

At least you're not threatening to ban me 'cause we disagree.

Edited May 6, 2007 by enzl

[stefanmueller]

"The Reckoning" by the recently deceased D. Halberstram, was published, IIRC, in the 80's.

Perhaps a read by some on this board would be intructive?

CARBIZ--just one, philosophical question: If GM is adding jobs elsewhere and cutting them here, why should I root for them? (BTW-the key stat you site is that somone was ADDING jobs, not sending them to a 3rd world country so that Lutz' golden parachute gets paid. Also, there are tons of US co.'s kicking ass and innovating? Ever spend time in Sillicon Valley or the Financial Centers in NYC? There are plenty of US co.'s paying great wages to citizens....The myopic, 'just good enough' nature of the Big 2.5 has come home to roost. The upheaval is life threatening for these hallowed American institutions. The difference between you and me is that I think the response is inadequate, you obviously think that they're doing well---but we're both fans.

At least you're not threatening to ban me 'cause we disagree.

The part you neglet to understand is that so long as GM's HQ's are in North America, America stands to gain from Any sales no matter where in the world they are. Toyotas profits all go back to Japan. They can boast about how they employ americans and build here, but the truth is Toyota treats so many of their employess as dispensible tools. One thing that makes American and European manufactures so good is that they give their employees a pretty good lifestlye, wherever its built. Toyota is such a crokid organization and with these 3 year probation periods, firing people who have given them 2.99 years of good hard work becvause the less pensions they have to pay the better. At least wherever their factories are, they treat thir employees so much better than the so called "Toyota way". Americans aren't stupid, and lately I've noticed that toyotas perception is starting to faulter because they contradict themselves in so many ways. Way to prove to everyone how stupid you are.

[CARBIZ]

That was cute, Enzl, but thus far GM is opening factories in other countries to build vehicles for those countries. Thus far, very few foreign-built GM vehicles are making their way to the North American market. However, Ford and GM's plant closings in North America are a DIRECT result of increase import presence in North America, that much at least is clear.

Toyota may get a lot of free press over opening a new plant in North America, but the odd person may notice that Ford and GM are closing plants (and laying off people) at a much greater rate. Would it not follow, then, that Toyota's smoke and mirrors PR is just that?

I am merely pointing out that should GM get fed up with the lop-sidedness of the issue and abandon production, if not sales, in North America - well, as horrifying as it is to contemplate, I can't say I would blame them.

And what is coming out of New York these days, other than a lot of fat cats getting richer from pushing a lot of paper around, not to mention some high level corruption scandals? Does anybody actually BUILD anything in New York any more? This entire "service industry" growth has me suspcious. Isn't that sort of like some pyramid scheme? I mean, how many people does it take to invest other people's money - especially if fewer people have any money left?

And, yes, there has been some innovation coming from the electronics and computer industry on this side of the Ocean, but then I read that a new university city just opened up in India and how they will be pumping out more programmers and engineers than America has ever seen.

Color me foolish to worry that we are selling out future up the river and (if I may, as a friendly neighbor) suggest that America is a tad bit over confident in its ability to continue the rugged, cowboy persona much longer. Politicians are too damned scared (or lazy) to stand up for what is right, and the public too damned selfish to sacrifice ANYTHING. God forbid if we give up any CHOICE.

[enzl]

That was cute, Enzl, but thus far GM is opening factories in other countries to build vehicles for those countries. Thus far, very few foreign-built GM vehicles are making their way to the North American market. However, Ford and GM's plant closings in North America are a DIRECT result of increase import presence in North America, that much at least is clear.

Toyota may get a lot of free press over opening a new plant in North America, but the odd person may notice that Ford and GM are closing plants (and laying off people) at a much greater rate. Would it not follow, then, that Toyota's smoke and mirrors PR is just that?

I am merely pointing out that should GM get fed up with the lop-sidedness of the issue and abandon production, if not sales, in North America - well, as horrifying as it is to contemplate, I can't say I would blame them.

And what is coming out of New York these days, other than a lot of fat cats getting richer from pushing a lot of paper around, not to mention some high level corruption scandals? Does anybody actually BUILD anything in New York any more? This entire "service industry" growth has me suspcious. Isn't that sort of like some pyramid scheme? I mean, how many people does it take to invest other people's money - especially if fewer people have any money left?

And, yes, there has been some innovation coming from the electronics and computer industry on this side of the Ocean, but then I read that a new university city just opened up in India and how they will be pumping out more programmers and engineers than America has ever seen.

Color me foolish to worry that we are selling out future up the river and (if I may, as a friendly neighbor) suggest that America is a tad bit over confident in its ability to continue the rugged, cowboy persona much longer. Politicians are too damned scared (or lazy) to stand up for what is right, and the public too damned selfish to sacrifice ANYTHING. God forbid if we give up any CHOICE.

By your logic, if you don't understand what someone does for a living or if a foreign co. created that position, that job doesn't count. MMM, OK. Toyota & Honda=more jobs....Big 3=Layoffs & payoffs to go away. That's not PR, its a fact!

New York, in case you missed the news in the past 200 yrs, is the Capital of the World. You can ascribe all kinds of preconceived notions to its inhabitants, but I assure you they work & play & (apparently) think alot harder about things than you do.

California, if separated out from the rest of the US, would have one of the top 10 economies in the world.

At least if you sounded reasonable, I'd give ya a break.

PS-Who should be limiting our choices for us? Gov't? Church? You? Please.

[Camino LS6]

Toyota is a symptom, consumerism is the root cause.

Myopic, individual greed is leading us into a decline the likes of which the US hasn't yet seen.

Once we cease to be a supplier nation entirely we will have ceded our ranking as a true world power to those who still actually create goods. Buying foreign goods because there are no domestic choices is a sad thing, but buying them out of some sense of consumer fashion or on price alone is actively negative for the country as a whole.

Even if the Japanese built a car or truck that I wanted (they don't), I would never buy one as I feel that it is simply wrong to do so.

We all make our choices, but few see the cummulative costs involved, and many simply don't care.

At least not yet.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Mmmm. seems I beat 'em to the story?

2.b. GM's success elsewhere (including more sales outside the US than here at home in '06) means that, eventually, GM will move even more of its production out of the US. Will you be humping their leg when 60%, 70% or 80% of GM's production is not made in the US? Maybe you should be critiquing GM's awful management and product decisions that resulted in the loss of jobs...or their decision to spin off Delphi and throw Americans out of good jobs....

On may 2,

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...mp;#entry277503

Yes, I will. And I'll be encouraging them to outsource the other 30% as fast as they can.

Edited May 7, 2007 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I do like you math, Enzl. 12,000 Canadian parts jobs have been lost in the past 3 years, according to the National Post a couple days ago. Ford and GM laid off 2,400 workers while Toyota opens a new plant in Woodstock that will....get ready for this, HIRE 900.

IS THAT SIMPLE ENOUGH MATH FOR YOU? Ontario is just damned lucky enough to have a few of the GM vehicles that are doing well in terms of sales. What choice would GM have, really? Washington is not getting the message that Japan Inc is hiding behind subsidized health care in Japan and, yes, Canada. They are hiding behind an artifically low yen, interest free business loans in Japan (paid for by the hapless consumers in Japan and their creaky banking system) and the benefits of having watched all of Detroit's stumbles and burdens of the past and being able to avoid them. Oh, all the while not having any serious competition in their own home market.

If GM can open factories in Australia or Korea or Indian and ship the vehicles here, and Washington is stupid enough to allow that, too, then more power to GM! Haven't you heard of the old adage: If you can't beat'em, join 'em? America's open markets are pricing itself right out of existence! Given China's rate of growth, in less than 10 years China will be the world's largest economy. Give over the auto market to Japan now, so China can take it in 15 years. Either way, until there is some semblance of a true fair market, and until import humpers everywhere stop being so f@#kING SELFISH, the bloodletting is going to continue until every single one of us is out of a job.

This is about survival. Sure, GM should have seen this coming 20 years ago when the first Japanese transplant factories started opening - they should have seen that Detroit was bound to lose its influence in Washington, but who among us would have believed 30 years ago, or even 20 years ago that Japan Inc was going to be a serious threat to Detroit? Could GM or Ford have stood up to the UAW in the '80s and said NO to their gold-plated pension plans or health care? Kudos should be given to Detroit for recognizing the truck market in the early '90s and seizing on that, but they weren't planning for the next Big Thing - whatever that will be.

America is losing its pre-eminence on all fronts. Detroit knows that. By all indications, China and India will be the biggest auto markets in the coming years. Perhaps GM will soldier on as an American owned company that operates almost solely in China, wouldn't that be just desserts?

+1

That post just makes WAY too much sense for a majority of the people on this board to agree with it.

[sciguy_0504]

How refreshing to see people come up with even more ways to control my life. I thought only the enviros wanted to control the vehicle parked in my driveway.

It's quite easy to look at Japan, Inc. and blame them for an artificially low yen (please provide proof) or "free" taxpayer-paid healthcare. It's easy to blast Washington for refusing to provide funds to dig out GM and Ford. It's seems hard to criticize the home team. Why don't GM and Ford explain to the public about the alleged protectionist policies by Japan? I am not talking about closed door meetings with politicians rather a concerted effort to alert the consumer to the problem. GM and Ford do have such power. After all, isn't Toyota worried about a backlash? How about having balls and telling the unions 'no' when it comes to outrageous pay and benefits packages? Pensions are long gone, you are responsible for your own retirement. If the courts can force airline unions to dump their pensions, they can force the UAW to do the same. Much more is at stake. If you want a drug (like Viagra) and do not need a drug (like a heart disease medication) you pay for it. Forget the long bathroom breaks and stupid union work rules (like if a chair has to be moved a certain person has to move it). If the unions actually had some brain cells they would see they are a large reason for pushing auto makers into the arms of other countries. Produce products that the public actually wants to buy. Luckily, GM has finally figured this out in the past couple of years. One only has to look at some current and most future products to see the proof. It seemed GM had been riding on autopilot for the past few decades.

China and India won't remain cheap and relatively peaceful socially forever. They may represent great investments now but what about 20 years from now? What happens when the extra-large Chinese lower class becomes tired of its status? What happens when the Chinese people want another form of government? They can be held off for only so long.

At the end of the day, however, GM will still be an American company, won't it? I mean, all of the money made from foreign sales will come back home. It's a shame sarcasm is hard to detect online.

[CARBIZ]

You guys are right. I concede. It is more important that I have no controls over my life and have complete choice to do whatever I want, whenever I want. That's called anarchy, guys. There has to be some form of controls, it's just that some of them are subtle and you don't know they're happening! You can choose a little intervention now, or a convulsive spasm later - that CHOICE is certainly yours.

The great Canadian and American experiment has produced a lot of successes in a kinder, gentler time. What we don't accept (or realize) is that many of our trading "partners" are not encumbered by the same nuisances, like democratic process (China and others) and are for more homogenous in their directions. If you listen to the conflicted bleatings out of Washington or Ottawa these days, you would be forgiven for getting the impression that nobody has a clue what is going on. While we worry about Kyoto and other niceties out of the '70s, the world has become far uglier and, worse, more confusing. Was not dealing with the Soviet "threat" at least a little more obvious than the shifting sands of politics that exists now in, say, the Middle East?

Japan may be a little more fuzzy and confused in its domestic policies, but thanks to MITI, it's foreign policy is not so fuzzy.

We cannot exist solely on "service sector" jobs. Intellectual property is very valuable, to be sure (just ask Bill Gates), but that is assuming your trading partners respect intellectual property rights. As long as Silicon Valley and the great thinkers in New York keep spitting out new ideas, trying to discover the next big thing, "emerging market" countries will keep on copying them and selling them back to us at a discount.

I grew up on Star Trek and truly want to believe the future will be bright and rosy, but 3/4 of the world lives on less than $1,000 a year and many of those people hate us and our way of life. On the other hand, if those people were to strive for our standard of living, the planet would implode from the strain on its resources.

There's a great choice: keep 'em poor so they hate us and we can use up the planet; elevate them to our level so they can compete with us and exhaust the planet.

It's almost comical, really: but stepping into a dealer show room can be the most political statement that you can make for your and your country's future.

[enzl]

Lets just end this 'intellectual' discussion by agreeing that you don't want me deciding anything for you and you can stay away from my choices.

GM, Ford and DCX have all basically committed to shedding tons of US jobs. I can't believe that co.'s in the midst of hiring US workers are criticized for growth and opportunities.

[regfootball]

Lets just end this 'intellectual' discussion by agreeing that you don't want me deciding anything for you and you can stay away from my choices.

GM, Ford and DCX have all basically committed to shedding tons of US jobs. I can't believe that co.'s in the midst of hiring US workers are criticized for growth and opportunities.

well, since toyota hires temps and gets rid of them at 2.99 years so as not to have to give them bene's, it's only natural they have to keep hiring a lot of new temps every 2.99 years (which they will not have to pay bene's to). There's your opportunities.

[enzl]

well, since toyota hires temps and gets rid of them at 2.99 years so as not to have to give them bene's, it's only natural they have to keep hiring a lot of new temps every 2.99 years (which they will not have to pay bene's to). There's your opportunities.

Umm...Henry Ford almost singlehandedly stopped the modern labor movement with mafia-style overlords and thugs beating 'dissident' workers...

Each story has the same relevance.

Some anecdote you read about on the interweb vs. fact.

Even if true, I'd rather have a job for 2.99 years than be an ex-autoworker trying to sell his home/get a new job in Michigan.

[VenSeattle]

Umm...Henry Ford almost singlehandedly stopped the modern labor movement with mafia-style overlords and thugs beating 'dissident' workers...

Each story has the same relevance.

Some anecdote you read about on the interweb vs. fact.

Even if true, I'd rather have a job for 2.99 years than be an ex-autoworker trying to sell his home/get a new job in Michigan.

I'd prefer to be the laid-off worker than a Toyota temp any day. You continue to ignore the buy-out compensation packages and pretend they don't exist. I'd take a $100k buyout or life-long medical coverage while still being young enough to begin a new career. Have fun trying to find a job that pays similar in a farm town in Kentucky while feeding and taking care of your family on nothing but unemployment.

[enzl]

I'd prefer to be the laid-off worker than a Toyota temp any day. You continue to ignore the buy-out compensation packages and pretend they don't exist. I'd take a $100k buyout or life-long medical coverage while still being young enough to begin a new career. Have fun trying to find a job that pays similar in a farm town in Kentucky while feeding and taking care of your family on nothing but unemployment.

Try to sell your home (to move) or find a job in Mi. after 10-30 years at an autoplant. Temp workers are hired as temps, no illusions there.

We're straying from the topic at hand. Jobs are jobs. Unemployment, sinking property values (which eliminate or minimize the overall economic value of the buyout) and the shear depression of seeing tens of thousands turned out on the street after being promised cradle to grave support and care.

A temp job is just that. Any expectation beyond is not reasonable. A Union contract, however, spells out the exact way your lifetime employment will be handled.

I just don't understand defending the indefensible. The caretakers at the big 2.5 have driven those institutions into the ground. As a fan, it angers me. As an industry guy, it makes me want to go out and acquire import dealerships, as clearly, the message isn't sinking in in Detroit or here!

[CARBIZ]

I suppose then that we should not buy a Ford because of something that its founder did 80 years ago? Why stop there? Nissan was an extension of the Japanese military, contracted to build trucks and equipment in Manchuria, using slave labor. It's amazing how people will dredge up crap from the past about what Ford, GM or Chrysler did, but ignore what Japan Inc is doing NOW.

Yes, they are creating jobs, but if they are creating 1 job for every 3 that the Big 2.5 is shedding, then that is losing math by anyone's accounting standards. That is the same mentality that Wal-Mart has used as it bulldozes through towns and cities, closing up small, family run businesses that have functioned for generations. Oh, but thank God I can buy a toaster for half the price it was 10 years ago!!!

Why is there such a hate-on for Michigan? Some people appear to be happy that Detroit is imploding as a city! If Toyota was so charitable, the least it could do is open plants in the Detroit area to help that city out! Ha, ha.

You know, my '83 Rampage was a piece of crap; so was my '87 Shadow. Do I go around dissing Chrysler today because of my eperiences 20 years ago? When I replaced my '91 Caprice and went looking for a car that could tow my boat, I was annoyed that nobody made RWD cars any more, but does that mean I am going to boycott GM and Ford because they abandoned a market that I felt was needed?

And in my opinion, a big part of the problem that GM and Ford are facing is because so many dealers went to the Dark Side and bought up import franchises when they were cheap, and since they are now making money hand over fist at their import dealers, they don't give a $h! if Chevrolet/Dodge/Ford fail.

A collaborator is someone who sells out their friend because it will benefit themself. Would I work for Toyota or Honda or BMW? Absolutely, emphatically not.

But then I have morals and integrity.

[Camino LS6]

I suppose then that we should not buy a Ford because of something that its founder did 80 years ago? Why stop there? Nissan was an extension of the Japanese military, contracted to build trucks and equipment in Manchuria, using slave labor. It's amazing how people will dredge up crap from the past about what Ford, GM or Chrysler did, but ignore what Japan Inc is doing NOW.

Yes, they are creating jobs, but if they are creating 1 job for every 3 that the Big 2.5 is shedding, then that is losing math by anyone's accounting standards. That is the same mentality that Wal-Mart has used as it bulldozes through towns and cities, closing up small, family run businesses that have functioned for generations. Oh, but thank God I can buy a toaster for half the price it was 10 years ago!!!

Why is there such a hate-on for Michigan? Some people appear to be happy that Detroit is imploding as a city! If Toyota was so charitable, the least it could do is open plants in the Detroit area to help that city out! Ha, ha.

You know, my '83 Rampage was a piece of crap; so was my '87 Shadow. Do I go around dissing Chrysler today because of my eperiences 20 years ago? When I replaced my '91 Caprice and went looking for a car that could tow my boat, I was annoyed that nobody made RWD cars any more, but does that mean I am going to boycott GM and Ford because they abandoned a market that I felt was needed?

And in my opinion, a big part of the problem that GM and Ford are facing is because so many dealers went to the Dark Side and bought up import franchises when they were cheap, and since they are now making money hand over fist at their import dealers, they don't give a $h! if Chevrolet/Dodge/Ford fail.

A collaborator is someone who sells out their friend because it will benefit themself. Would I work for Toyota or Honda or BMW? Absolutely, emphatically not.

But then I have morals and integrity.

[enzl]

I suppose then that we should not buy a Ford because of something that its founder did 80 years ago? Why stop there? Nissan was an extension of the Japanese military, contracted to build trucks and equipment in Manchuria, using slave labor. It's amazing how people will dredge up crap from the past about what Ford, GM or Chrysler did, but ignore what Japan Inc is doing NOW.

Yes, they are creating jobs, but if they are creating 1 job for every 3 that the Big 2.5 is shedding, then that is losing math by anyone's accounting standards. That is the same mentality that Wal-Mart has used as it bulldozes through towns and cities, closing up small, family run businesses that have functioned for generations. Oh, but thank God I can buy a toaster for half the price it was 10 years ago!!!

Why is there such a hate-on for Michigan? Some people appear to be happy that Detroit is imploding as a city! If Toyota was so charitable, the least it could do is open plants in the Detroit area to help that city out! Ha, ha.

You know, my '83 Rampage was a piece of crap; so was my '87 Shadow. Do I go around dissing Chrysler today because of my eperiences 20 years ago? When I replaced my '91 Caprice and went looking for a car that could tow my boat, I was annoyed that nobody made RWD cars any more, but does that mean I am going to boycott GM and Ford because they abandoned a market that I felt was needed?

And in my opinion, a big part of the problem that GM and Ford are facing is because so many dealers went to the Dark Side and bought up import franchises when they were cheap, and since they are now making money hand over fist at their import dealers, they don't give a $h! if Chevrolet/Dodge/Ford fail.

A collaborator is someone who sells out their friend because it will benefit themself. Would I work for Toyota or Honda or BMW? Absolutely, emphatically not.

But then I have morals and integrity.

All I'm doing is spelling out reality. If you read carefully, you'd have understood that Toyota's treatment of temp workers is as relevant to this conversation as Ford's tactics 80 years ago: AN ANALOGY!

Second, I love Detroit (the city & the motor industry)---I HATE that the slow burn of the 2.5 will leave that city, along with others, as smoldering wastelands of poverty and broken promises.

Japan, Inc. is creating jobs---are they Union-style, work 'til you die jobs? NO. But you're a hypocrite because you'll bash the Union and what they're doing to GM in another thread. The 'Wal-Martization' of unskilled jobs began long ago and, if you look at the current issues with GM's Lordstown and epsilon factories, you'll see that part of the labor impasse is that GM wants Non-union (i.e. low wage, low benefit) janitorial staff!

In other words, GM WOULD do the same, if it COULD! It can't because of the Union contracts. Do you expect the transplants (BTW, Korea and Germany are also doing this) to just give Union wages and rules to ALL of their employees because their US competitors are stuck within that framework. That's like an NFL team deciding not to use 5 yds. of width of the field because they know their competitor is slower and cannot compete on a full playing field.

Doesn't happen in the real world, my friend. Blame should go where its deserved. Making excuses for others failings is, in psychological terms, being an ENABLER. That has nothing to do with Morals or Integrity. You don't know me, so don't judge me because I disagree with you---Morality is when my employees have to feed their families, so I acquire a business with a more optimistic outlook, so that those people and I can benefit and stay gainfully employed. Integrity is being the #1 Domestic dealer in my region and meeting or exceeding sales targets when 75% of my region misses theirs---for 4 years runnning. Ironically, you should be THANKING me, as I'm selling more when others sell less.

You're right. I'm a collaborator with those that want to run successful businesses they're proud of....perhaps when you have 400+ people depending upon your decisions and your morals and your integrity, I'll be more concerned about your misinformed opinion of me.

Edited May 8, 2007 by enzl

[CARBIZ]

You're taking this too personally, Enzl. I am not targeting you specifically. I am, however, targeting some of your points that your raised. Chill out! I have a good idea who you are. I've been following your posts, too! The Henry Ford remark was just over the top because that happened 80 years ago, while the temp positions Toyota is doing (if true, BTW) is here and NOW. Far more relevant, wouldn't you say?

I have had this argument with dozens and dozens of people over the years. Our politicians on both sides of the border are playing this game, too. I had this argument with town business people and council when I ran my own business for 11 years. They would fight Sunday shopping, Big Box stores, anything to keep the status quo, because they thought it would benefit them personally, but it was hurting the Town. I could see that, and I was proven right, ten years later!

If you read my posts, I have said many times that Toyota is and should be doing exactly what it is doing, because that is what true capitalism is all about. Avoid unions? By all means! Pit one state against the other for tax advantages? Of course! You will also realize that I deliberately leave Germany and the EU out of this because they are practicing fair markets and free markets. You can easily buy a Opel or Vauxhall in Germany or France, but what about Japan? Can that be said, too?

Just don't expect me to hold it against GM that it is struggling to honor its commitments to its employees while Toyota gets a free pass. I may dislike Unions, but I understand GM has to deal with them. Toyota does not. Is that fair? No. So I will continue to put my money where my mouth is and I will NOT consort with the enemy, because that is what I believe Japan to be. They do not play fair. For the record, I place most of the blame on our governments and the media for paying attention to crap that is not important and ignoring what is.

The Japanese government, like Big Business will only get away with what we let it get away with.

[regfootball]

I'm so glad to see we have folks in this country who seem to endorse moving our nation to a bunch of part time temp workers with no health insurance or benefits and endorsing high turnover and treating human resources as a replaceable 'tool'.

That sort of attitude usually only comes from the elitists who feel irreplaceable themselves. Eventually we all reap what we sow. Wait till management and marketing jobs are all in India too.

And that is not a pro-union comment or anything against efficiency. It has more to do with getting people to believe that if you invest in people and build their futures, the future of your country and community is built as well.......and that's not done stringing folks along, giving them some hope of being full hires, or decent wages, and instead using them to just pull the rug out from under them. Attemtping to tear people down in interest of profits only is a guarantee to destroy our fabric.

The acronym for 'toyota production system', TPS, deosn't also have to mean 'treating people $h!ty'.

Edited May 8, 2007 by regfootball

[stefanmueller]

All I'm doing is spelling out reality. If you read carefully, you'd have understood that Toyota's treatment of temp workers is as relevant to this conversation as Ford's tactics 80 years ago: AN ANALOGY!

Second, I love Detroit (the city & the motor industry)---I HATE that the slow burn of the 2.5 will leave that city, along with others, as smoldering wastelands of poverty and broken promises.

Japan, Inc. is creating jobs---are they Union-style, work 'til you die jobs? NO. But you're a hypocrite because you'll bash the Union and what they're doing to GM in another thread. The 'Wal-Martization' of unskilled jobs began long ago and, if you look at the current issues with GM's Lordstown and epsilon factories, you'll see that part of the labor impasse is that GM wants Non-union (i.e. low wage, low benefit) janitorial staff!

In other words, GM WOULD do the same, if it COULD! It can't because of the Union contracts. Do you expect the transplants (BTW, Korea and Germany are also doing this) to just give Union wages and rules to ALL of their employees because their US competitors are stuck within that framework. That's like an NFL team deciding not to use 5 yds. of width of the field because they know their competitor is slower and cannot compete on a full playing field.

Doesn't happen in the real world, my friend. Blame should go where its deserved. Making excuses for others failings is, in psychological terms, being an ENABLER. That has nothing to do with Morals or Integrity. You don't know me, so don't judge me because I disagree with you---Morality is when my employees have to feed their families, so I acquire a business with a more optimistic outlook, so that those people and I can benefit and stay gainfully employed. Integrity is being the #1 Domestic dealer in my region and meeting or exceeding sales targets when 75% of my region misses theirs---for 4 years runnning. Ironically, you should be THANKING me, as I'm selling more when others sell less.

You're right. I'm a collaborator with those that want to run successful businesses they're proud of....perhaps when you have 400+ people depending upon your decisions and your morals and your integrity, I'll be more concerned about your misinformed opinion of me.

I'm glad you like to offend everyone in this forum. It makes me sad that people see Toyota building plants as a good thing. Why do you think Ford and General Motors are closing car factories? Do you think they just do it for fun, and feel good about not having jobs for their employees? Every plant toyota builds closes one or two already existing plants that people have spent their life's work. Sure it looks good for Toyota right now, because they offer new jobs, but when you look at the whole picture it is actually reducing the total number of jobs in America (and Canada). All of Toyotas profits go through the bank and back to Japan, while our car companies are struggling to make ends meet and deal with the harsh reality of chosing what plants need to be closed in order to maintain profitibility. You act like these closures are unnecessary, and that they enjoy doing it. How can you be so sinicle as to be oblivious to the fact that these closures are all because Toyota keeps eating up our market share. Japan is set up so that GM can't enter their market, and it is virtually closed to non-domestic auto manufactures. Here we have GM, the largest contributer to the American healthcare system, loosing marketshare because here we allow competition and the government fails to adress the problems these manufacturers face. My dad works for GM, and has given me a pretty nice lifestyle, but there is times where thanks to the continuing growth of Asian Manufactures he has been afraid he will loose his job.

You say that temp agencies and jobs are good, but I think it is complete garbage and an insult to their employees. Our American companies have employed generations of families, and have always been the backbone of our ecomy. How you can say "hey, look at toyota, they have a 3 year probation period to aviod high pension, healthcare costs, and are creating all these new jobs" and turn around and say "These American Manufactures keep laying off people, they don;t care about america" is a tremendous insult to me. Why don;t you wake up and see the whole situation, and get out of your little "fairy" tale world where life in your Prius is so good and Toyota is creating all these amazing temp jobs for americans. If America looses its car industry, people like me will be devastated, but people like you will realize how stupid and you were when America's economy is all foreign and we'll replace China with cheap labour and low standards of living.

[enzl]

I'm so glad to see we have folks in this country who seem to endorse moving our nation to a bunch of part time temp workers with no health insurance or benefits and endorsing high turnover and treating human resources as a replaceable 'tool'.

That sort of attitude usually only comes from the elitists who feel irreplaceable themselves. Eventually we all reap what we sow. Wait till management and marketing jobs are all in India too.

And that is not a pro-union comment or anything against efficiency. It has more to do with getting people to believe that if you invest in people and build their futures, the future of your country and community is built as well.......and that's not done stringing folks along, giving them some hope of being full hires, or decent wages, and instead using them to just pull the rug out from under them. Attemtping to tear people down in interest of profits only is a guarantee to destroy our fabric.

The acronym for 'toyota production system', TPS, deosn't also have to mean 'treating people $h!ty'.

1. You obviously don't run a large co.

2. Almost everywhere you go in the US, an employee is "at will", meaning 'at the mercy of' his/her employer

3. Union jobs are some of the few exceptions to #2....see how that's worked out in the airlines, steel or auto industries....

4. I'm not endorsing any behavior. But if you're hired as a TEMP, you have been hired under clear-cut terms.

Get over this obsession with what Toyota may or may not be doing. How about GM risking strikes at the Epsilon & Delta plants to get a concession from the Unions to hire non-union workers?

If GM does it too, does that make it OK in your mind?

Profits = Jobs. Ask any one of the tens of thousands of US auto workers that no longer have one. Go to France and see how well their Social Welfare system is working...you're appealing to base emotions, but have no fact, logic or reasonable correlation to real human behavior to back up your statements.

When you own a big co., employ 100's of people and tough decisions need to be made, we'll see what you do. Until then, keep your ill-informed opinions to yourself, as ignorance isn't bliss here.

[regfootball]

It's obvious that working for your company would suck. Employment at will or not, which, no $h! sherlock, means every day is a new employment contract and you prove yourself every day. but not commiting to an employee (i.e. stringing them along, temp style) basically says, 'you are nothing but a piece of meat, I in no way value you in any sort of way whatsoever'. You know the phrase, 'you get what you pay for'? Well, if your employment arrangements are not reasonable and don't signify some sort of reciprocal commitment to the worker, you're the one that's gonna get fked in the end. high turnover, low productivity, defective products and labor, immigration issues, whatever. Someway, somehow, you'll be left to fail in the end. Then what is the price? Numbers are not the only criteria and sorry to say it, but profits are not 100% the criteria for running a successful business. Integrity, reciprocal giving and getting and relationships is the only recipe for a long lasting successful business. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn that your company probably has no sort of charitable giving policy that is worth a hill of beans. And not just some cheesy made up policy that only exists to show off in PR brochures. how bout something that exists as a genuine effort to give back the communities you rape low priced temp labor from?

Wait till management and marketing jobs are all in India or China or Japan, too. Keep sending $$$ overseas and eventually not too far down the road, all the management and decision makers of our fates are over there as well. When the shoe is on the other foot and somebody from Japan or India is the one hiring you as a temp, won't that be a hoot.

Edited May 8, 2007 by regfootball

[enzl]

I'm glad you like to offend everyone in this forum. It makes me sad that people see Toyota building plants as a good thing. Why do you think Ford and General Motors are closing car factories? Do you think they just do it for fun, and feel good about not having jobs for their employees? Every plant toyota builds closes one or two already existing plants that people have spent their life's work. Sure it looks good for Toyota right now, because they offer new jobs, but when you look at the whole picture it is actually reducing the total number of jobs in America (and Canada). All of Toyotas profits go through the bank and back to Japan, while our car companies are struggling to make ends meet and deal with the harsh reality of chosing what plants need to be closed in order to maintain profitibility. You act like these closures are unnecessary, and that they enjoy doing it. How can you be so sinicle as to be oblivious to the fact that these closures are all because Toyota keeps eating up our market share. Japan is set up so that GM can't enter their market, and it is virtually closed to non-domestic auto manufactures. Here we have GM, the largest contributer to the American healthcare system, loosing marketshare because here we allow competition and the government fails to adress the problems these manufacturers face. My dad works for GM, and has given me a pretty nice lifestyle, but there is times where thanks to the continuing growth of Asian Manufactures he has been afraid he will loose his job.

You say that temp agencies and jobs are good, but I think it is complete garbage and an insult to their employees. Our American companies have employed generations of families, and have always been the backbone of our ecomy. How you can say "hey, look at toyota, they have a 3 year probation period to aviod high pension, healthcare costs, and are creating all these new jobs" and turn around and say "These American Manufactures keep laying off people, they don;t care about america" is a tremendous insult to me. Why don;t you wake up and see the whole situation, and get out of your little "fairy" tale world where life in your Prius is so good and Toyota is creating all these amazing temp jobs for americans. If America looses its car industry, people like me will be devastated, but people like you will realize how stupid and you were when America's economy is all foreign and we'll replace China with cheap labour and low standards of living.

If I'm offending you, I'm sorry.

I'm passionate about this industry. When I see the dissemination of ignorance, I try to correct it, as Fans of GM need to know what is really going on.

It may be over for the US industry. I'm hoping that doesn't happen, but it won't be because I didn't warn people of the impending doom.

The only difference between me and others on this site is that I believe that the Big 2.5 are not doing the right thing to avoid disaster....others clearly feel that they are on the right path.

Please reread my posts, see what I do for a living and how it depends on GM before you judge my words. I'm not an imprt humper coming over here from VTECnation.com or what ever trying to flame you guys. I care enought to tell you you are mistaken. What you do with the info I provide is completely up to you.

I'm truly sorry your Dad's livelihood is threatened by the current uncertainty, however, you've chosen the wrong guy to blame....

[enzl]

It's obvious that working for your company would suck. Employment at will or not, which, no $h! sherlock, means every day is a new employment contract and you prove yourself every day. but not commiting to an employee (i.e. stringing them along, temp style) basically says, 'you are nothing but a piece of meat, I in no way value you in any sort of way whatsoever'. You know the phrase, 'you get what you pay for'? Well, if your employment arrangements are not reasonable and don't signify some sort of reciprocal commitment to the worker, you're the one that's gonna get fked in the end. high turnover, low productivity, defective products and labor, immigration issues, whatever. Someway, somehow, you'll be left to fail in the end. Then what is the price? Numbers are not the only criteria and sorry to say it, but profits are not 100% the criteria for running a successful business. Integrity, reciprocal giving and getting and relationships is the only recipe for a long lasting successful business. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn that your company probably has no sort of charitable giving policy that is worth a hill of beans. And not just some cheesy made up policy that only exists to show off in PR brochures. how bout something that exists as a genuine effort to give back the communities you rape low priced temp labor from?

Wait till management and marketing jobs are all in India or China or Japan, too. Keep sending $$$ overseas and eventually not too far down the road, all the management and decision makers of our fates are over there as well. When the shoe is on the other foot and somebody from Japan or India is the one hiring you as a temp, won't that be a hoot.

Don't worry. I'm fairly certain you'll never have the opportunity to work for me.

I never said Profit=Everything, just that it does = jobs....or else how would I pay people, Sherlock?

I've been in the business world for my entire adult life. I'd venture to say I was the best boss a majority of my employees have EVER had. You obviously understand the nuances required to maintain a positive relationship with your staff. I'm fairly certain I do that everyday--I'm assuming your drawing conclusions about me from the wicked intellectual whipping I've been giving you. Sorry, you pissed me off.

Since you've now offered no counter argument to anything substantive, I'll assume this thread is dead, as it should be.

[regfootball]

I can understand that is it's the easy path for business leaders in the US to outsource jobs and make the remaining jobs here temp jobs.

From a tunnel vision perspective it's a no brainer for someone charged with a running a business to do that.

From a leadership, stewardship, and visionary perspective, I would hope one would aspire for more...that is to try to figure out a way to improve our own citizen's well being rather than take the easy path and disregard what everyone's existence here means to the US.

The easy path is not always proved to be the best path over time. Sometimes you gotta try a little harder.

Well, maybe that's what our politicans ought to be doing, is removing the barriers to doing business profitably in this country. Ah, they are too busy getting bought off at every corner to care.

until then, our domestic producers are saddled with a business environment in which they are severely disadvantaged, at least with regards to third worlders and homogenous, controlled societies with vendettas like Japan. Part because of their own fault, and part because not. And if they go away, no one seems to care, no one that MATTERS. At least until it doesn't affect them.

When we sell off enough of the US or are indebted so much so that others own us, no one will care either I guess.

Enjoy getting your paychecks in yen.

I'd never accuse a pure businessman of doing anything beyond bare minimum required for extracting easy profit. They just don't 'train' businessmen to do much besides that in school, if they went to school. It's rare to find businessmen who expand their roles / duties to include something with a greater reach / societal good. Especially if it doesn't involve some sort of personal paycheck or stock option or bonus.

Edited May 9, 2007 by regfootball

[gm4life]

I am just glad to see GM growing some other place than the US. In an increasingly global economy this is not a bad thing. Although I would love to see more Impala's than Camry's on the road.

[Camino LS6]

It's pretty simple really, foreign domination of any of our industries or markets is a net negative for the country as a whole. And, no amount of employment by foreign concerns will ever change nor ameliorate that fact.

[Oracle of Delphi]

It's pretty simple really, foreign domination of any of our industries or markets is a net negative for the country as a whole. And, no amount of employment by foreign concerns will ever change nor ameliorate that fact.

Which reminds me, Hershey is shutting down plants in Canada and the USA and moving them to Mexico. When they open that Mexican plant is the day I stop eating Hershey products.

[CARBIZ]

GM and Ford are in a pickle. Nobody is denying that. We can all pull out our resumes and turn this into a pissing match, but the fact is that GM and Ford are swimmng upstream on this one. They are trying to do what is right and look after their employees while having grenades lobbed at them from Japan! If the Japanese government totally supports their industry (zero interest loans, artificial devaluation of the Yen, MITI interference at the highest levels) while Ottawa/Washington do nothing, then is it to be believed acceptable to join forces with the winning side just because, what - they are winning?

Sorry, but I find that very sad. You can justify it anyway you want, but throwing in with Japan Inc is greatly contributing to the collapse of not only the North American auto industry, but perhaps the entire industrial backbone of North America. We can't just sit back and point to Wall Street or Silicon Valley and say, "See, America is still great," then pat ourselves on the back.

Or are people missing the fact that a war is going on - a Clash of Civilzations, really. That war needs to be fed by taxes from gainfully employed people and from an industrial base that can continue the flow of arms. I have said this before and it is worth repeating: What will a future President of the United States do when he has to commandeer factories for war munitions when all those factories are owned by foreign companies? Is it not enough that a trillion dollars worth of dollars is currently held by our "friends" in Asia? Do we have to completely hand them our industrial base, too? So we can drive a shiny new Lexus? So we can have more choices of what to drive? Save a few bucks on a toaster or a pair of jeans? I am not the only one who worries that perhaps our "friends" have found a kinder, gentler way to contain the West; without firing shot, really.

It is not such a stretch to connect the dots to where this is all leading. Wall Street smugly declares that the Chinese or Japanese wouldn't dare collapse the American dollar because they own too much of us - what kind of solution is that? What if they don't have to collapse the dollar? What if they just need to threaten to do it? Our democratic process is so seriously fractured right now that neither Washington or Ottawa could agree on what to order for supper, let alone Trade Policy. The lawyers have so bamboozled the politicians and Big Business that we are fighting over who is dumping softwood on each other, while far greater battles are being completely ignored.

This is not just about manufacturing jobs. This is about who owns and who controls the trademarks and patents of an entire industry. With Ford and GM out of the picture, all of those patents, processes and technologies are up for grabs. They would be gone forever. If we as individuals don't decide to do what we can, in even small ways, to support what is left of industries on this continent, then we deserve to become second or third rate nations of service providers.

I do not blindly support everything GM is currently doing, but I deeply resent the trade policies of many Asian countries and Japan in particular. Simply glossing that over is naive at best, unpatriotic at worst. There is plenty of blame to go around for reasons why GM is where it is today, but I personally will not EVER buy any Japanese vehicle or Japanese-made vehicle.

For the record, I have always felt that way, long before I started selling GM products. When a friend of mine bought a new '87 Corolla, it nearly ended our friendship.

[regfootball]

I really don't mind moderate support for some Japanese companies that are not out to lie and deceit their way to the market. These are companies that know their place and operate from more of a fair trade mindset. If the companies in mind add choice for the consumer and do so in the spirit of free and fair trade then I can be convinced it provides good. Examples, mazda, suzuki, mitsubishi. These companies want to share and participate and have defined niches. Mazda 'collaborates' with Ford. There is an even exchange and fairness there. Suzuki still maintains a mutually beneficial relationship with GM. Mitsubishi used to be linked with Chrysler until Daimler screwed them.

Aside from NUMMI I have not seen any interest from Toyota in being a 'collaborator'. Honda is particular is far too homogenous as well, even if they supplied some engines for the Vue. It is hard to know Nissan's intentions since the French run them, and the French are not all together.

Edited May 9, 2007 by regfootball

[enzl]

Both CarBiz and Reg are way oversimplifying complex international issues, including trade, monetary policy, geopolitics, et al...

US Companies started the outsourcing of manufacturing. Companies don't really have a conscience, they have mgmt and a board---all under the gun to make $.

To say that Honda makes its money wrong, yet Suzuki makes it the right way just doesn't make sense.

You're confusing the symptoms of the US Co.'s sickness with the cause. A weak, poorly managed US industry got caught with its collective pants down and handed this situation to the Japanese companies.

They would have been foolish to refuse said gift.

(BTW-CarBiz-your rant borders on the xenophobic--it seems to me our domination by 'Westerners' wouldn't bother you as much. Just the way it comes across)

Edited May 9, 2007 by enzl

[regfootball]

so at least we have established that business people have no obligation to do anything beyond manufacturing numbers on a spread sheet. We require nothing of them that they have a conscience or have any concern for the social fabric or ecnomic health of our country as any sort of priority. We require no stewardship of them in any way shape and form.

sweet. I should have went to business school. we exist as humans for profit, and nothing else. building a country be damned.

as far as xenophobia, Japan inc is pretty much the masters of that. Otherwise their markets would be open as gaping wide as ours is.

Edited May 9, 2007 by regfootball

[thegriffon]

Which reminds me, Hershey is shutting down plants in Canada and the USA and moving them to Mexico. When they open that Mexican plant is the day I stop eating Hershey products.

Which reminds me:

"We regret to announce that Peerless Confection Company, manufacturer of quality hard candies in Chicago, Illinois, since 1914, will cease operations effective April 30, 2007. Declining consumption of hard candy and the increasing prevalence of imports and offshore production are two major factors influencing our decision. To remain competitive in this environment would require us to move our facility offshore, which is not an option we are willing to consider. To do so would betray our tradition of quality and our commitment to our family of workers.

For 93 years Peerless has been proud to offer our customers the finest quality hard candies made in America. That tradition will continue until the last piece of candy is produced. The Board of Directors has made the decision to cease operations at a time when our financial position enables us to offer each of our employees a generous severance package."

Now, while a decline in sales of hard candies is understandable (partly due to the myth it causes tooth decay), the rise in imported hard candy (mostly from China) is retailer-driven, and has nothing to do with customer preferences. Who in their right mind would buy Chinese candy over American candy, at any price? I used to buy American hard candy every Christmas, now I couldn't if I wanted to because retailers no longer sell it. They'd rather boost their profits by selling Chinese candy canes.

[enzl]

so at least we have established that business people have no obligation to do anything beyond manufacturing numbers on a spread sheet. We require nothing of them that they have a conscience or have any concern for the social fabric or ecnomic health of our country as any sort of priority. We require no stewardship of them in any way shape and form.

sweet. I should have went to business school. we exist as humans for profit, and nothing else. building a country be damned.

as far as xenophobia, Japan inc is pretty much the masters of that. Otherwise their markets would be open as gaping wide as ours is.

Your above comentary is exactly why I'm rude to you, you cherry pick what you want and throw away the rest of a logical thought:

First-I never said business shouldn't have a conscience, I only said that businesses were in Biz to make $. At the end of the day, workers feelings and all that warm fuzzy crap is what keeps workers happy and motivated and efficient. But, believe me, it all starts at the bottom line---It's clear you don't have formal biz training, but can't you understand that if a biz doesn't make $, there's no money to pay all those workers you want to give a hug to!

Second, ever hear that two wrongs don't make a right? If the Japanese are xenophobic, that gives YOU the right to feel badly about them. If you've ever attended Sunday school or learned about MLK, I'm sure you stumbled upon the previous statement, or how about turning the other cheek? regardless of your valid points, they gets lost in the fog of ignorance you surround yourself with.

Our open markets and our freedoms are based on a noble premise. If we are to curtail those things, we no longer remain who we are. Sometime this works for us, other times it doesn't.

You're still completely absolving the domestics of blame for leaving their back doors open and not expecting someone to come in. first, they stole the sliverware---now they're throwing you out of your house---but we let 'em in in the first place.

[regfootball]

being profitable and holding your business practices to a higher standard can coexist. In properly run companies.

this is nice

Edited May 9, 2007 by regfootball

[CARBIZ]

WardsAuto.com, I couldn't have said it better.

Calls of "xenophobia" (a cute term for "racist") won't wash with me. As I have tirelessly said, Japan does not allow imports of finished products. It blocks them at every turn. I don't give a damn where a vehicle/MP3 player/T-shirt/toaster is built, as long as the originating country is not playing footloose with trade rules. China is currently appearing to be all nice-nice because they need our technology, so we can be friends. For now.

Naivete is going to get us as nations nowhere. The U.S.' current account deficit cannot be sustained forever. At some point the bill will come due. The only choice Americans have is whether they want a little pain now, or a lot of pain later. I would love to believe in the noble aspiration that we can elevate others to our standard of living, but in a future where increasingly hostile nations are vying for increasingly diminishing natural resources we could be commiting suicide, literally.

I'd like to know exactly how the "domestics" left the back door open? I'd suggest that members here who are particularly fond of all things Japanese to bone up on MITI in Japan: what their function is, mandate, etc. Dig deep, because the truth won't be in glossy publications. For example, why are Japanese consumers propping up the banking system so that multi-nationals can enjoy 0-interest loans? If GM is "off-shoring" its manufacturing at this juncture, who can blame them? If Washington is not going to wake up to what Japan Inc is doing, as a matter of survival GM and others have no choice. It is the voters (and unemployed) who should speak up! Sadly, as long as middle-class America (and Canada) has their pizza and their remote controls, they are content to ignore the decline around them.

We have all made choices in our lives. Some that we are proud of, some that we rationalize. I am happy that my life is portable enough that if confronted with the choice of selling out my country, I can refuse. I sympathise for those who may have made choices in the past, that although they may have seemed harmless at the time, are now only coming to light as having been far more insidious. But then the human condition allows us to rationalize almost anything, from a simple car buying decision, to choosing to purchase "hot" computer because it is a good deal, without regard to who we may be hurting.

I enjoy this debate and I refuse to be dragged into name calling and insults. My skin is thicker than that and I am confident that I will have history on my side. I just wish that I was wrong.