551 Zeta Delayed

[rueben44]

Again I will state this is my life and I will not waist a year of it waiting for GM. Right now I a trying to wait for the Astra but I am feeling another Mazda in my future.

[trinacriabob]

Patience...Not all is right about what has been said.

I am not bent out of shape the way some are...I'd like to see an evenly distributed FWD and RWD product line. Neither is necessarily bad. My current W body has been a great car because (1) they ran the platform for a long time, and (2) GM quality control got better...my current 1990s car is better than was the 84 Cutlass Supreme and that car was better than the 76 Cutlass Supreme...both of which my parents bought and handed-down to me.

I personally foresee placing a W-body order sometime late this year or early next year, so I am interested in the timing. I think the others are more serious car aficionados and it is their interest in GM, overall, that propels their disappointment and/or jubilation.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Well that sucks Impala is delayed-better to be delayed so that the car is better and not cancelled, or worse yet, made front-wheel-drive yet again, right?

[Camino LS6]

I have been patient for a very long time and will try to remain patient, but it's past time for GM to throw us a bone. RWD has been up in the air for way too long, and derailed too many times.

The US Gov't. needs to back off as well.

[gmii]

Tell the irrational environmentalists to back off first...They only like to hear themselves talk, and not hear meaningful LONG-TERM solutions. Too bad the media only focuses on such hyperbole...The governement has no choice but ot follow suit.

You are perfectly right to not be patient anymore. GM has done some dumb things that have caused too many delays. There have been signs of hope...More hope is coming. Let's hope they execute right.

[Camino LS6]

Tell the irrational environmentalists to back off first...They only like to hear themselves talk, and not hear meaningful LONG-TERM solutions. Too bad the media only focuses on such hyperbole...The governement has no choice but ot follow suit.

You are perfectly right to not be patient anymore. GM has done some dumb things that have caused too many delays. There have been signs of hope...More hope is coming. Let's hope they execute right.

Agreed on all points.

[Robert Hall]

The thing is, the Ws are so outdated now, how do GM expect to be competitive at all in 2-3 years with them? Simply on price?

[trinacriabob]

I hear you and I agree. Platform revamping is an absolute necessity and freshness is needed. I am only speaking for myself, with my needs being totally utilitarian and conservative - I want others to try things first. In marketing parlance, I am a "late adopter." I hope that the RWD cars come on line but, most importantly, that they turn out to be proven products with a bunch of red dots in Consumer Reports so the General doesn't have egg on his face. I, too, look for the long-term viability of the brand. However, I'll be one of the few that is ok with putting one last W-body in my driveway. Then, depending on what's out there, I could do RWD, hybrid, other alternative...whatever...

[Camino LS6]

It still seems that the end of the Ws is still on schedule with the possible exception of the Impala.

I've been trying to find the silver lining in all of this, and have come up with just one thing.

This could be very good for the G8.

[Robert Hall]

I hear you and I agree. Platform revamping is an absolute necessity and freshness is needed. I am only speaking for myself, with my needs being totally utilitarian and conservative - I want others to try things first. In marketing parlance, I am a "late adopter." I hope that the RWD cars come on line but, most importantly, that they turn out to be proven products with a bunch of red dots in Consumer Reports so the General doesn't have egg on his face. I, too, look for the long-term viability of the brand. However, I'll be one of the few that is ok with putting one last W-body in my driveway. Then, depending on what's out there, I could do RWD, hybrid, other alternative...whatever...

I'm an early adopter and a middle adopter with some things...consumer electronics, I jumped on CDs, DVD and TiVo early, but waited until 1080p sets came out to jump into HD.

As far as cars, my Jeep is a 2000--I intentionally waited a year after the '99 redesign for the initial kinks to get fixed....may do the same with my next car... maybe an '09 G8 or '09 CTS. Not sure exactly what I want next, depends on if I keep the Jeep for winter use.

[91z4me]

SANDLES:

You are making very direct and confident statements, but you have offered nothing in return to support your assertions. Please try, in an indirect way of course, to tell us where you work or your connections.

From my sources, this "delay" has more to do with a) the unions, b) the competition, and c) some minor product shifts.

When he posted the same thing on CZ28 I jumped to conclusion that he was just trolling. After reading all of his posts overthere, specifically in the 5th gen seciton of the board it is obvious that he is privy to plant specific information coming from Oshawa. I would speculate that he doesn't just work the line but is involved with either union relations/negotiations or in manufacturing engineering.

[Oracle of Delphi]

ocnblu lives pretty close to you as well... :AH-HA_wink:

ocnblu 70 miles from me, camino is in the next county.

[Camino LS6]

Another uplifting post by GuionM over at CZ28:

Take the position that General Motors is a business first and foremost. Their entire reason for existing is to make the most money with the least investment and churning out the best product possible. General Motors is selling every Impala they make right now. They are even artificially backing down production to keep prices stable.... down to "only" 250,000 cars annually.

Second, to be perfectly honest about everything, Camaro is 100% safe for one reason, and one reason only. It's an approval that was publically announced and has been amazingly transparent in it's development (most transparently developed car since the Pontiac Solstice). GM's painted itself into a corner with the Camaro to which there's no escape. If it wasn't for that Camaro would be either put on hold as well. GM isn't likely to clear as much on each Camaro as Ford does with the Mustang, so there isn't as much real incentive outside of enthusiasm and momemtum. There were fewer Z28s made in 2001 and 2002 than new GTOs sold in it's worse year, just to give an idea of what type of convincing had to be done.

Finally, one of the things about the internet is the herd mentality and the ripple effect. How one small quote magnifies to the level of a catastrophy and creates a stampede of people running in the wrong direction. Bob Lutz has NEVER.....EVER said that Zeta is cancelled. 2 years ago, he said it was put on hold. A week or so ago, he said the program was "paused". Today, there's word (which is very plausible) that the Impala program is slightly delayed. Yet each time, it's turned into a "doomsday scenario" on the internet.

It hasn't been posted yet as to why Impala is delayed. Perhaps GM wants to bring out all it's sedans at the same time. Perhaps GM decided to add a different volume engine and needs the extra time to certify it. Perhaps GM decided to squeeze another year out of the Impala. Perhaps, like the 4th gen Camaro's late restyled windshield, there's a last minute design revision that requires a structural change.

It's ridiculous for anyone to think even for a moment GM is going to walk away from Zeta. Last year Chrysler sold over 143,500 300s and in excess of 114,000 Chargers. Chrysler has probally just over half to 2/3s the dealers that Chevrolet has, yet (throwing in the 40K Magnums sold last year) they sold nearly 300,000 "volume" rear drive cars"! Although GM's FWD W-body dwarfs that number, it's still a huge and profitable number.

GM's rear drive Zeta program is EXTREMELY important. Not because it wants to keep performance enthusiasts happy, but because these are the "Aspirational Cars" that Lutz, Welburn, and others were talking about some years ago.

The RWD sedans are top model of each brand that sums up what that entire division is all about. They have the latest goodies and technology, performance & ride, and is the car each loyal buyer of that division will buy when they have enough money, or are at the point in life where they can own that car. Think of the old pre-1977 Cadillac Fleetwood, Buick Park Avenue, and Chevrolet Caprice. Add in Northstar II, possible Turbo HF V6s, and the LS3 under the hood depending on division, advanced IRS under the rear end, modern day sizes, and styling that sizes up the entire division's styling history but in a very modern way with a bit of edginess to it.

So next time you hear a Zeta's being "reevaluated", or is on hold, or is being delayed a little, keep in mind that none includes the Camaro, El Camino, or G8. These are locked in. Also, don't believe for a moment the sedans for Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac are in any real jepordy (they may not be locked in, but the door's barracaded). And don't fall into the belief that at least 1 "big" coupe won't make the cut (it's essentially going to be a LWB Camaro with a very different skin, and cost comparitively pocket change to make).

Keep in mind, Zeta also was seen to spin off wagons, hatchbacks, and also the short wheelbase models were going to be phased in to replace at least a couple of dying W-body midsized cars after 2011. I'd imagine that's where your death blows are going to hit and do the most damage.....

......and give rise to this small RWD Alpha we've been hearing about.

__________________

[trinacriabob]

ocnblu 70 miles from me, camino is in the next county.

Distances out there, by our West Coast standards, are kind of a joke. You know, you have some TexASS in your background.

Also, wouldn't the 70 mile drive be worth it?

[gmii]

When he posted the same thing on CZ28 I jumped to conclusion that he was just trolling. After reading all of his posts overthere, specifically in the 5th gen seciton of the board it is obvious that he is privy to plant specific information coming from Oshawa. I would speculate that he doesn't just work the line but is involved with either union relations/negotiations or in manufacturing engineering.

I am not discounting him totally. I think he knows some things. The only problem is he is probably a few tiers from the HQ in Detroit. Oshawa would give him an idea (I am "close" to give you an idea of what I know), but HQ is also throwing out a lot of misinformation because of the union issues and competitors. Like I mentioned before, he is partially right...but even those things could change.

Just look at Zeta and all the on again, off again speculation.

[trinacriabob]

General Motors is selling every Impala they make right now. They are even artificially backing down production to keep prices stable.... down to "only" 250,000 cars annually.

Second, to be perfectly honest about everything, Camaro is 100% safe for one reason, and one reason only. It's an approval

It hasn't been posted yet as to why Impala is delayed. Perhaps GM wants to bring out all it's sedans at the same time. Perhaps GM decided to add a different volume engine and needs the extra time to certify it. Perhaps GM decided to squeeze another year out of the Impala. Perhaps, like the 4th gen Camaro's late restyled windshield, there's a last minute design revision that requires a structural change.

What's the deal with the Impala being so hot? I don't get it. And, if the sales figs are correct (and I know they are), 25,000 Impy units a month makes for 300,000 on an annualized basis. So, then, why is this model doing so well while all the other W-body sales figures are in the toilet?

And, I thought about this, too. The introduction could be to properly align the model line-ups among the brands. Right now, it seems very fragmented. The G8 will come and then the others will "dribble in" in a haphazard manner that doesn't give credence to the program. And, please, let's leave Chrysler out of this. I think that those cars (300 and Charger) pulled in a "niche market" of early adopters (to use that term) the same way that the PT Cruiser did but do not have staying power. A more "middle of the road" car like the Impala is probably experiencing that staying power I allude to.

[Camino LS6]

This sentance was all I needed to hear from Guy to make it all worthwhile to me.

"So next time you hear a Zeta's being "reevaluated", or is on hold, or is being delayed a little, keep in mind that none includes the Camaro, El Camino, or G8. These are locked in."

[Oracle of Delphi]

The key will be to see who GM names as the Larson replacement, that will tell you which way the wind is blowing.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

The sedans, which share engineering with the planned Chevrolet Camaro sports car, may have to have more fuel-efficient engine options, Lutz said in an interview for the program "Autoline Detroit" to air Sunday on Detroit Public Television.

This is why I posted that thread about Bob Lutz being on Autoline Detroit this weekend. This is why I suggested others watch it to find out more.

Here is that thread:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...showtopic=17014

As I said before I am watching all of this. People are panicking for nothing. They miss the obvious because they fear the worst. That is how people get into trouble with their thinking. GM may want to throw everyone off to keep enthusiasts and the competition guessing.

This was telling too:

So next time you hear a Zeta's being "reevaluated", or is on hold, or is being delayed a little, keep in mind that none includes the Camaro, El Camino, or G8. These are locked in. Also, don't believe for a moment the sedans for Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac are in any real jepordy (they may not be locked in, but the door's barracaded). And don't fall into the belief that at least 1 "big" coupe won't make the cut (it's essentially going to be a LWB Camaro with a very different skin, and cost comparitively pocket change to make).

Keep in mind, Zeta also was seen to spin off wagons, hatchbacks, and also the short wheelbase models were going to be phased in to replace at least a couple of dying W-body midsized cars after 2011. I'd imagine that's where your death blows are going to hit and do the most damage.....

......and give rise to this small RWD Alpha we've been hearing about.

I will leave you with this commercial to encourage others about rear drive cars at GM and Zeta:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfmqwhQ5W70

__________________

Edited May 3, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[Sixty8panther]

I was going to say.... we got the Camino coming down the pipe as well. Fan-f@#kin-tastic.

I hope we get about two dozen different variants of the Zeta chassis. Viva La RWD.

[regfootball]

I hear you and I agree. Platform revamping is an absolute necessity and freshness is needed. I am only speaking for myself, with my needs being totally utilitarian and conservative - I want others to try things first. In marketing parlance, I am a "late adopter." I hope that the RWD cars come on line but, most importantly, that they turn out to be proven products with a bunch of red dots in Consumer Reports so the General doesn't have egg on his face. I, too, look for the long-term viability of the brand. However, I'll be one of the few that is ok with putting one last W-body in my driveway. Then, depending on what's out there, I could do RWD, hybrid, other alternative...whatever...

I know you're up for proven technology but the W body will be 23 years old in 2010.

Some of the posters here are inferring that they are fine with extending the W body for chevy etc. and that 6 year product cycles are ok.

No effing way in today's market does 6 year product cycles with a MCE after year three years cut it. Products are perceived as dated after about 3 to 3 1/2 years. Customers lose interest in new products after about 2 years.

GM is so toast. No one will be taking them seriously ever again if this is all true.

At lease if they brought the Saudi Lumina over, the Holden Caprice, the Chinese Park Avenue, etc. we would have some sort of hope. the Corsa even too.

[jbartley]

how does this factor into the the rumor that the Impala will stay FWD, and a RWD zeta will sit above it? Caprice, etc?

[Drew Dowdell]

how does this factor into the the rumor that the Impala will stay FWD, and a RWD zeta will sit above it? Caprice, etc?

the only way I see that happening is if the Impala goes "Classic". Malibu is moving much closer to Impala size range.

[gm4life]

If it will be as great of a car as I think it will be I can wait.

[dimitri0917]

GM confuses me. Zeta seems to be only important to them for the Camaro, which will probably be outdated by the time an all new 'Stang comes out a year or two afterwards. LY 300 and Charger should be coming up soon and Ford's Interceptor is probably getting close, if they build it. Toyota will find out sooner or later about America's love for non-lux RWD full sizers and catch up... GM needed the first Zetas released by '09 to start getting ahead of the competition. They have failed to deliver... ONCE AGAIN.

[hyperv6]

Everyone need to take a risk and relax.

I said when the hold was put on the Zeta it was only a hald and not to get too carried away.

The Camaro was on a hold too and it is still on line to come.

GM needs to adjust the drivetrains to better fit new rules and that is all.

At this point I expect to see more V6 engine options and more use of Hybrid and deisel offerings.

Keep in mind we have some V6 engines coming we have not seen and will have more power than already offered by the CTS caddy 3.6 DI. By the way no SC or Turbo used.

So if we have more RWD 300+ HP sedans vs 430 HP sedans I can live with that. If I have a Impala with a 320 HP engine getting near 40 MPG highway I can live with that. How long ago we were just glad to have a 125 HP V6 Eurosport?

None of this is the end of the world and if GM needs one extra year to make a better car then lets do it! How often have they given us something that should have waited a year.

As reported the delay will be supported by the present Impala that is making money so thei will not harm GM in dollars as it could.

Besides if the present Impala is selling 250,000 cars a year with most of the tooling paid for it is a gold rush that even the new Impala could not top in profit figures for a while till it's tooling is paid for.

Besides this delay may bring us a little more inovation than originally planned in the drivetrain department. GM may reap more benifit by pressing more world leading technology into their car now than later vs much of Toyotas alleged technology we have seen.

Edited May 3, 2007 by hyperv6

[gmii]

hyperv6 has hit it on the nail.

[The O.C.]

What's the deal with the Impala being so hot? I don't get it.

Rental and Fleet. The old bug-a-boo rears it's ugly head again.

Compare Impala's retail sales to those of Accord and Camry. Camry does a fair bit of fleet, but nowhere near Impala levels. Accord does almost no fleet/rental.

I remember a post by Turbo200 with actual fleet percentages a few years ago and the last generation Impala was at about 62% fleet/rental penetration at the end of it's lifecycle. I'm sure the new Impala is not that high, but I bet it's not that far off the mark.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Toyota will find out sooner or later about America's love for non-lux RWD full sizers and catch up... GM needed the first Zetas released by '09 to start getting ahead of the competition. They have failed to deliver... ONCE AGAIN.

That is a scary thought and is quite possible. We have benn hearing about Zeta in NA for 2+ years now and they are still 3 years away. Toyota may just beat them to it with a RWD family sedan and then GM would really look like jack asses.

[I hope GMRULES again]

Rental and Fleet. The old bug-a-boo rears it's ugly head again.

Compare Impala's retail sales to those of Accord and Camry. Camry does a fair bit of fleet, but nowhere near Impala levels. Accord does almost no fleet/rental.

I remember a post by Turbo200 with actual fleet percentages a few years ago and the last generation Impala was at about 62% fleet/rental penetration at the end of it's lifecycle. I'm sure the new Impala is not that high, but I bet it's not that far off the mark.

Your right but somebody has to povide a car to the rental agencies, Gov't employees and sales reps of the world so why is it such a bad thing if its a Chevrolet? I don't think Buicks and Pontiacs should be on Avis lots but I don't have a problem with Impalas being there. Impala is on track for 325,000 sales this year so I can see why GM is losing sleep over changing this car over to RWD.

[The O.C.]

That is a scary thought and is quite possible. We have benn hearing about Zeta in NA for 2+ years now and they are still 3 years away. Toyota may just beat them to it with a RWD family sedan and then GM would really look like jack asses.

They already have a couple RWD platforms (IS, GS Lexus) that could probably be quickly and easily decontented enough to fit a Toyota pricing structure......

[Camino LS6]

Rental and Fleet. The old bug-a-boo rears it's ugly head again.

Compare Impala's retail sales to those of Accord and Camry. Camry does a fair bit of fleet, but nowhere near Impala levels. Accord does almost no fleet/rental.

I remember a post by Turbo200 with actual fleet percentages a few years ago and the last generation Impala was at about 62% fleet/rental penetration at the end of it's lifecycle. I'm sure the new Impala is not that high, but I bet it's not that far off the mark.

Except that a few things have changed since then:

-GM is atificially limiting Impala production to keep demand and transaction prices up.

- GM is rducing fleet sales significantly.

- Toyota is increasing fleet sales.

Not the same old bugaboo anymore.

[The O.C.]

Except that a few things have changed since then:

-GM is atificially limiting Impala production to keep demand and transaction prices up.

- GM is rducing fleet sales significantly.

- Toyota is increasing fleet sales.

Not the same old bugaboo anymore.

Where are your facts supporting an increase in Toyota's fleet sales, because I haven't seen that....?

[Camino LS6]

Recent news article, I think it was from AN.

I've read so many in the last few days I can't remember which news source it was.

[Camino LS6]

Hey OC, I think it was in the Lapham commentary on Toyota passing GM in the 1st quarter. I found it posted somewhere and now I can't find it and I'm not an AN subscriber.

Maybe someone who is can provide the text.

Rest assured, I'm not blowing smoke here.

[Camino LS6]

Mentioned briefly here too:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/toyo...mp;siteid=yhoof

[ocnblu]

Everyday people, enthusiasts, police agencies, taxi companies, any walk of life will receive a Zeta Impala with open arms... give us diesels, hybrids, gasoline and E85 V6 and V8 choices and cover all the bases... the Universal Car once again, just as it was in its heyday. This is such a golden opportunity, it needs to be seized.

[Sixty8panther]

O.B. said it all.

[trinacriabob]

Everyday people, enthusiasts, police agencies, taxi companies, any walk of life will receive a Zeta Impala with open arms... give us diesels, hybrids, gasoline and E85 V6 and V8 choices and cover all the bases... the Universal Car once again, just as it was in its heyday. This is such a golden opportunity, it needs to be seized.

Will someone give us some stats as to the intended design parameters of this new Zeta Impala? How big, how heavy, 4 door/2 door? What's expected here? The twin of the G8?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Bigger than a bread box!

[Camino LS6]

Depending on who you ask, Zeta long or short wheelbase with all GMNA designed sheetmetal.

Likely just a sedan.

But I guess all of that could be in flux at the moment.

[Sandles]

When he posted the same thing on CZ28 I jumped to conclusion that he was just trolling. After reading all of his posts overthere, specifically in the 5th gen seciton of the board it is obvious that he is privy to plant specific information coming from Oshawa. I would speculate that he doesn't just work the line but is involved with either union relations/negotiations or in manufacturing engineering.

Not even close.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not even close.

[GM Oshawa]

Facts that are certain for the Oshawa Flex Plant. The last Impala Produced in Plant # 1 will be Nov 30th 07. Start up production in Plant # 2 will be in Jan 08 for Impalas, Pontiac, Buicks ,No Monte Carlo. Workers that will be working in the new Flex Plant will return after a nine to ten month lay off. These returing workers to the Flex Production Product (Camaro) will be working the one and only shift,which will be strait days for one full year. During this one year period the introduction of the ragtop( Camaro) and another product will be intoduced.

All body stamping for the cars that are produced in Oshawa is done within the Complex.In My Opionion the stamping and paint shop can not reach the demand for all this product .

Production of the Impala, Buick and Grand Prix will still go on with three shifts DURING the construction of the Flex Plant.

Edited May 4, 2007 by GM Oshawa

[trinacriabob]

Facts that are certain for the Oshawa Flex Plant. The last Impala Produced in Plant # 1 will be Nov 30th 07. Start up production in Plant # 2 will be in Jan 08 for Impalas, Pontiac, Buicks ,No Monte Carlo. Workers that will be working in the new Flex Plant will return after a nine to ten month lay off. These returing workers to the Flex Production Product (Camaro) will be working the one and only shift,which will be strait days for one full year. During this one year period the introduction of the ragtop( Camaro) and another product will be intoduced.

All body stamping for the cars that are produced in Oshawa is done within the Complex.In My Opionion the stamping and paint shop can not reach the demand for all this product .

LaCrosse is meant to have AT LEAST a full 2008 model year. Where will that be produced? I see the Impala running a full model year AT LEAST...meaning that production could cease next Spring (2008) but certainly not 2007 for either of those cars.

[hyperv6]

Will someone give us some stats as to the intended design parameters of this new Zeta Impala? How big, how heavy, 4 door/2 door? What's expected here? The twin of the G8?

The last GM offical I heard say anything said it was about the smae length and jsut a little wider than the present car.

That was before the G8 appeared and it is that same size.

No the in in the sheet metal as it is all new. it is to have elements of a 63 and 67 Impala including six tail ights. It will share drivetrain parts with the Camaro.

Other than that they are very garded yet on any details.

[Oracle of Delphi]

LaCrosse is meant to have AT LEAST a full 2008 model year. Where will that be produced? I see the Impala running a full model year AT LEAST...meaning that production could cease next Spring (2008) but certainly not 2007 for either of those cars.

You better hurry Bob if you want that W body. You know what they say about he who hesitates.

[RBB]

Bigger than a bread box!

?

-RBB

[bcs296]

Delayed Malibu, delayed Impala... As if GM's product cycles weren't long enough. Just confirms that the guys upstairs still don't know what the hell they are doing.

What a disaster. I'm going to go buy a Camry.

Edited May 4, 2007 by bcs296

[Flybrian]

All you have to do is look around to see the changing face of rental fleets. Sure, the old stalwarts (Impala, Sebring, Grand Prix, Cobalt) are there, but some surprising new faces like the '07 Altima, Avalon, Camry, and Eclipse are proliferating greatly.