Let me just save you the "heartbreak"

[Chris_Doane]

I think a real world cost annalisys would read something

like this:

$50,000 worth of extra R&D & tooling

Wow do you have any idea how hilariously far off that is?

(stupid question, of course you don't.)

Edited May 2, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Robert Hall]

It's the same kind of thing like the old fogeys that were bitching about the GTO when it came out..'it doesn't look like the '65!!' 'waahh waaahhh'..

IGNORE THEM! THEY ARE IRRELEVANT! What matters are the people that actually buy new cars..

[Drew Dowdell]

Wow do you have any idea how hilariously far off that is?

(stupid question, of course you don't.)

in this regard, I might have to stand up for 68. They're already developing a Camaro convertible... how hard would it be for them to slap a non-retractable hardtop over it?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Sixty8 is right...

Now, its a hideous pile of crap.

You know, this is exactly the kind of irrelevent minutia I said years ago that people would be bitching about come this time. Buick and Pontiac are starved for product, Cadillac's momentum is slowing, GM can't afford for Saturn to properly advertise all its great new cars, and we're worried about a facet of the Camaro that wouldn't have made it through to production anyway.

I'm getting sick of the Camaro already and its thanks to the multitudes of people who bitch and pigeonhole the goddamn thing before it even rolls off the line. I bet not twenty-four hours go by after production photos are released that I'll read inane whining about how the toggle switches are too thick or the gauge font isn't sporty or the rocker panels being too thick or the eggcrating in the grille being too wide. What's even more annoying is those that PMS the loudest about the most inconsequential things CANNOT AFFORD OR WILL NEVER BUY THE f@#kING CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

In a few short years, I want to be able to buy a brand-new Buick. This isn't a 'maybe kind sorta beginning to possibly consider pondering whether I should think about it'; I intend to. Will there be a truly great one there for me? Or will I have to relegate myself to buying used because I, for one, will not buy a Chevrolet. Why? Because its a Chevrolet and there is always something better than a Chevrolet. Don't blame me for that attitude; blame GM. They sold innumerable people on that concept, including me, and now I feel like I'm holding a bill of goods that doesn't exist.

Where are the focus groups on my car?

Where are the proof-of-concepts of my car?

Where's the enthusiasm for my car?

Where's the support from GM for my car?

I really feel that there is none. Now, I don't hate the Camaro; if it sells well, great. But if all this focus and earmarked budget is intended solely for a lowish-volume coupe for a bottom-rung division, then I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

So, to those bitching about idiotic things from the concept that you knew in your heart you'd never see in the real car, just be thankful you have a real car. The closest thing to my dream car is in China.

Sing it Fly, you're preaching to the choir baby!

[Chris_Doane]

in this regard, I might have to stand up for 68. They're already developing a Camaro convertible... how hard would it be for them to slap a non-retractable hardtop over it?

$50k gets you absolutely nothing in R&D and tooling. Maybe a shift knob or a window switch?

To answer specifically, I seriously doubt the vert will be hardtop vert. So that would kinda make the idea irrelevant.

Even if there were a hardtop vert, they would never put a non-functioning vert roof on a car. I'm not sure if that's what your suggesting? A roof is engineered to move or not move. Can't mix and match. That would never make it past the lawyers, much less the regulations. Also, if you want to keep costs in order, you generally want to spend your engineering dollars on one roof design. As in:

-One vert roof design (if you're going to do a vert at all)

-One hard top roof design per sedan or coupe model.

Can't have a one coupe model with a B pillar and one coupe model without. Then the business case goes to hell. However there have been cars with soft and hard top verts available. I would imagine that if you are already doing a roof that's going to move, there would be some engineering overlap to doing both. Thus, less work to do and less engineering dollars spent.

If you're suggesting they take a vert body and put sort of a hardtop "shell" on top, then you have to make structural/body changes to the car. Which means a lot of engineering dollars. Also, you'd most likely have to re-certify/validate the car in that configuration. Validation is a pretty expensive process. Certainly waaaaay more than $50k. Then your business case goes to hell again.

I think a lot of people underestimate how complex and expensive car building is. I know of one OEM who requires that they put tens of thousands of miles on a car just to test new ECU software. I imagine most OEM's have a similar testing procedure. The engineers salaries and cost of fuel to run the test cars for that amount time alone would be more than $50k. Imagine what it costs when the structure of the car has to be reengineered/validated.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Camino LS6]

Diaappointing news.

I agree with all that Balthazar posted and I will add:

- I don't see the big cost differential to do a true hardtop since this is a clean sheet design.

- You folks are underestimating the effect this will have among the Camaro faithful, 68 will not be alone there. Don't kid yourself about that.

- No, it wouldn't stop me from buying the car but it would always annoy me.

Too bad really, a true hardtop design is beautiful by nature, much more so than a B pillar coupe. And glued-in rear windows just plain suck.

[Camino LS6]

... And one more thing:

Trends have to begin somewhere, and I'd like to see some of them come from GM. If pillarless hardtops became a trend, then all would have to pay the cost of admission and we would get more beautiful cars as a result.

[Sixty8panther]

Well, how about this... could one or a few of our very experienced choppers be able to submit their ideas of what a B-Pillar on the Camaro would look like?

I know it'd be purely hypothetical, but it could help give a small idea of what we could be looking at.

Let's let it die... only time will tell.

I think there's about a 95% chance the Camaro WILL be a true

pillarless hardtop. The concept is a sign that the designers GET

it now. There ARE some true car guys working at GM and those

people know what's what.

Either way here's a chop for ya.

[Camino LS6]

Another thought:

If GM determined that, despite their best efforts, a hardtop simply couldn't happen, well ok then.

But I'd like to know that they tried like hell to make it work before they threw in the towel.

Reality bites, but slacking on any aspect of this car can't be tolerated.

[Flybrian]

- You folks are underestimating the effect this will have among the Camaro faithful, 68 will not be alone there. Don't kid yourself about that.

This hasn't bothered anyone for the thirty-two years that the Camaro didn't even have rear sideglass and instead had rather thick C-pillars.

[Intrepidation]

$50k gets you absolutely nothing in R&D and tooling. Maybe a shift knob or a window switch?

To answer specifically, I seriously doubt the vert will be hardtop vert. So that would kinda make the idea irrelevant.

Even if there were a hardtop vert, they would never put a non-functioning vert roof on a car. I'm not sure if that's what your suggesting? A roof is engineered to move or not move. Can't mix and match. That would never make it past the lawyers, much less the regulations. Also, if you want to keep costs in order, you generally want to spend your engineering dollars on one roof design. As in:

-One vert roof design (if you're going to do a vert at all)

-One hard top roof design per sedan or coupe model.

Can't have a one coupe model with a B pillar and one coupe model without. Then the business case goes to hell. However there have been cars with soft and hard top verts available. I would imagine that if you are already doing a roof that's going to move, there would be some engineering overlap to doing both. Thus, less work to do and less engineering dollars spent.

If you're suggesting they take a vert body and put sort of a hardtop "shell" on top, then you have to make structural/body changes to the car. Which means a lot of engineering dollars. Also, you'd mostl likely have to re-certify/validate the car in that configuration. Validation is a pretty expensive process. Certainly waaaaay more than $50k. Then your business case goes to hell again.

I think a lot of people underestimate how complex and expensive car building is. I know of one OEM who requires that they put tens of thousands of miles on a car just to test new ECU software. I imagine most OEM's have a similar testing procedure. The engineers salaries and cost of fuel to run the test cars for that amount time alone would be more than $50k. Imagine what it costs when the structure of the car has to be reengineered/validated.

They are referring to a fixed hardtop not a vert. Also it should be noted that if the car was designed to be built as a hardtop to begin with then there would be no need to recertify/validate it because it would be designed that way from the get-go. Still, there's no arguing that alll aspects of car building are very expensive.

Diaappointing news.

I agree with all that Balthazar posted and I will add:

- I don't see the big cost differential to do a true hardtop since this is a clean sheet design.

- You folks are underestimating the effect this will have among the Camaro faithful, 68 will not be alone there. Don't kid yourself about that.

- No, it wouldn't stop me from buying the car but it would always annoy me.

Too bad really, a true hardtop design is beautiful by nature, much more so than a B pillar coupe. And glued-in rear windows just plain suck.

I'd like to add a few counterpoints.

• The Charger pissed off the Charger faithful because it had 4 doors..which if I were so anal about such things I'd find a pillar much less offensive than 2 extra doors.
• Despite the moaning and bitching, the Charger sells very well. You're underestimating the power of design that most people will gladly pay for even if a few diehards are too anal to not buy one based on a piece of metal.
• It's a small piece of metal...
• The Camaro hasn't been revealed yet. It may or may not have a pillar

I know some of you guys are very passionate about hardtops and yes they are nice and quite distinctive...but c'mon...let's be happy we have cars like the Camaro and Challenger back.

Oh, and Sixty8...I like chocolate too...

Edited May 3, 2007 by Dodgefan

[Camino LS6]

Hmm, well I hated the Charger then and I still do now.

4 doors = no sale for me.

Let's see how this plays on CZ28.

[Flybrian]

• The Charger pissed off the Charger faithful because it had 4 doors..which if I were so anal about such things I'd find a pillar much less offensive than 3 extra doors.

The original Charger????

Again, this is why I'm sick of this car already. Every Camaro nut should just simply be happy they have a car to whine about in the first place. Where the hell were they for the past decade when GM was desperately trying to move Camaros and Firebirds? And a better question - how many of you who complain so virulently are putting your money where your mouth is and buying one when they come out? And how many of you are just going to put another 12,000 miles on your Cobalt and say "eh...maybe in a few years when there's a rebate?" You can blame our lack of spectacular automobiles across all GM lines on that latter group of window shoppers who bitch and moan about "Why can't GM make a car with a big V8, 50mpg, and a Hooters waitress?!" and then turn around and bitch and moan about "no Buick is worth more than $30,000!"

There's a big difference between hypotheticals and reality and I bet GM realizes that a pillard Camaro will still sell out.

[Intrepidation]

The original Charger????

Again, this is why I'm sick of this car already. Every Camaro nut should just simply be happy they have a car to whine about in the first place. Where the hell were they for the past decade when GM was desperately trying to move Camaros and Firebirds? And a better question - how many of you who complain so virulently are putting your money where your mouth is and buying one when they come out? And how many of you are just going to put another 12,000 miles on your Cobalt and say "eh...maybe in a few years when there's a rebate?"

Damn you, I didn't fix the typo fast enough

Ideally, I'd like a Charger SRT-8, Camaro and a Challenger...

[ToniCipriani]

Lets see here are you options to keep no pillar.

Option 1: 4200 LBS and we all complain

Option 2: $45,000 for the base V6 once they add all the aluminum to lose the weight and we all complain.

Option 3: No Camaro at all and we all complain.

Option 4: Drink a beer, still buy one and just get over it. As it is just a stinking pillar not the end of the world and if any one complains we kick them in the jewels to take their mind off of it.

I was expection a pillar and a lot of crying when it is first seen. To me the pillar is easier to deal with than all the petty pissing and moaning.

If you don't like the pillar just buy the Convertible. It could have been worse, the convert could have had a basket handle roll bar of a Cutlass on it..........................

Or just do it the Miata way. Get someone to make an add-on hardtop.

[Camino LS6]

As far as purchases go, I did buy a 4th gen F-body. And I will buy at least one Zeta car.

Will it be Camaro?

Not sure yet.

[Robert Hall]

As far as purchases go, I did buy a 4th gen F-body. And I will buy at least one Zeta car.

Will it be Camaro?

Not sure yet.

I see a pretty strong (> 50%) likelihood that I will buy a Zeta (G8) or Sigma (CTS) before the end of the decade..or maybe a Camaro convertible? Or wait until 2010 (mid-life crisis time).

[z28luvr01]

Well, I would have loved to have seen the car come out as a pillarless hardtop because that's a trend that is just itching to come back. Pillarless hardtops are cool to look at and fun to ride in - even in the back seat. I would love to see GM spearhead the return of a "volume" pillarless hardtop. I would hate to see Toyota come out with a pillarless Solara and be perceived as a style leader for it. With all of that said, I think there is a lot worse they could do to the Camaro than put a B-pillar on it. They did more of a disservice to it in 1993 by making it unsafe to drive for some body types, and even more of a disservice to it by killing it in 2002.

[corvette_dude729]

I would hate to see Toyota come out with a pillarless Solara and be perceived as a style leader for it.

Sshhhhhhh... don't give them ideas. They're listening to our every word.

[Chris_Doane]

Also it should be noted that if the car was designed to be built as a hardtop to begin with then there would be no need to recertify/validate it because it would be designed that way from the get-go.

Right, that's what I said. Generally they have to pick one type of roof to spend their engineering dollars on. A vert would still need separate validation testing whether the coupe was with or without a B pillar.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Robert Hall]

Hardtops are neat, I'm not sure how popular they would be today when all cars have A/C...

I've driven a few vintage hardtops ('67,'68 Cougars, '68 Camaro, '69 LTD, '73 LTD) and it is a lot of fun driving with the windows down..but they all had vinyl interiors and NO A/C, so I had to have the windows down in Ohio in July..

In a modern car with A/C, having the windows down becomes annoying after a while at freeway speeds...between the wind noise, traffic noise, and not being able to hear the stereo, I usually power up the windows and crank up the A/C pretty quickly..

[Chris_Doane]

Or just do it the Miata way. Get someone to make an add-on hardtop.

Good point. Something like EDAG did with the Solstice.

http://www.edaghardtop.com/

If a 3rd party company thinks there is a market for it and can afford to engineer it, more power to them.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Camino LS6]

This hasn't bothered anyone for the thirty-two years that the Camaro didn't even have rear sideglass and instead had rather thick C-pillars.

All the more reason why it matters on this car.

[Sixty8panther]

Chris Doane:

Do you understand the differance between a traditional

"hardtop" (pillarless car with fixed roof) & a retractible

hardtop? What more than one person here has been

trying to explain to you is that the Convertible's rear

1/4 windows, regulators, motors, crank etc. are all perfect

for retrofitting into a hardtop, or as it may be since the

hardtop will come out first, vice versa.

Either way you're SAVING money by NOT designing a

separate rear glass that is fixed/glued in.

Now as far as me just buying a 'vert instead of a HT...

Ragtops are a LOT less safe than a pillarless hardtop, they flex

& squeak more, and MOST irritating to me are these two facts:

1. Convertibles cost thou$$$ands more than a sedan OR fixed hardtop.

2. Convertibles look like @$$ with the top up.

I love hardtops, or for you amateurs "pillarless hardtops" but I'm NOT

a big fan of ragtops. I do NOT want Canvas over my head esp. in a

muscle car I'm going to drive with enthusiasm.

And I drove to NYC just to look at the Camaro concept and dipped

into my savings to afford the trip so I say that maybe people

here need to stop telling me how I will never buy a new Camaro.

I'm more than capable of buying a new car but it will have to be

one HELL of a new car!

[Chris_Doane]

Chris Doane:

Do you understand the differance between a traditional

"hardtop" (pillarless car with fixed roof) & a retractible

hardtop? What more than one person here has been

trying to explain to you is that the Convertible's rear

1/4 windows, regulators, motors, crank etc. are all perfect

for retrofitting into a hardtop, or as it may be since the

hardtop will come out first, vice versa.

Either way you're SAVING money by NOT designing a

separate rear glass that is fixed/glued in.

Yes, I understand just fine. It's you that does not understand the engineering/validation process that I have been trying to explain. Glass, window motors, etc. are nothing compared to the work you would have to do on the body/structure to do what you're talking about. OEM's don't function like Monster Garage. You can't just tack something on.

[knightfan26917]

Where are the focus groups on my car?

Where are the proof-of-concepts of my car?

Where's the enthusiasm for my car?

Where's the support from GM for my car?

These 4 questions can be asked by many different GM enthusiasts for many different cars ... the Monte Carlo, included.

I, too, haven't quite understood the "discussions" the Camaro has brought forth already, even before it starts production.

*shrugs*

I'd rather wait and see what actually is ... than speculate on what might be....

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Confusing what is real" ... Linkin Park ... 'Crawling'

[Sixty8panther]

Chris:

Perhaps you need to get off your high horse. You're not Bob Lutz.

If they can make a ragtop pass side impact crashes than a car

taht amounts ot basically a ragtop WITH a fixed steel roof will

have no problems. Wht is so damn dificult to understand about

the fact that a hardtop is like a ULTRA safe ragtop with it's top

up, if convertible fans can have their canvas roofs then WTF

do you have for proof that the exact same car is unsafe or too

difficult to engineer with a STEEL C-pillar & steel roof instead of

canvas stretche over coat hangers?

The ability to shoot photos of cars does not make you an expert

in this field. Sorry.

When is the last time you turned a wrench? Ever seen a 2007

MB CLK500 hardtop with it's guts removed to see just how

much reinforcement there IS in the roof? It's not rcoket sience

to make an extra thick A & B pillar you know.

Much easier than an "affordable" IRS which I do NOT need or

want but will have to pay or anyway.

[Chris_Doane]

Chris:

Perhaps you need to get off your high horse. You're not Bob Lutz.

If they can make a ragtop pass side impact crashes than a car

taht amounts ot basically a ragtop WITH a fixed steel roof will

have no problems. Wht is so damn dificult to understand about

the fact that a hardtop is like a ULTRA safe ragtop with it's top

up, if convertible fans can have their canvas roofs then WTF

do you have for proof that the exact same car is unsafe or too

difficult to engineer with a STEEL C-pillar & steel roof instead of

canvas stretche over coat hangers?

The ability to shoot photos of cars does not make you an expert

in this field. Sorry.

When is the last time you turned a wrench? Ever seen a 2007

MB CLK500 hardtop with it's guts removed to see just how

much reinforcement there IS in the roof? It's not rcoket sience

to make an extra thick A & B pillar you know.

Much easier than an "affordable" IRS which I do NOT need or

want but will have to pay or anyway.

LOL...ah yes, now your true colors show through. Haaha I was trying to be Bob Lutz? Hmm, I thought I was trying to explain the engineering/validation process. I won't bother trying anymore as it's clearly lost on you. If you ever meet someone who actually engineers cars, ask them how much $50k in engineering and validation spending would get you on a volume car program. Nevermind the tooling you thought would be included in that $50k.

The ability to shoot cars certainly doesn't make me an expert. My job isn't just taking photos, however. My job is all about future cars. If at all possible, I need to know what's coming and have details about future products and timing. So I work to do just that. You pick up quite a lot about the process of making cars when that's what you deal with all day. I've developed many contacts with people who engineer and build the cars you and I drive. Over the years, they've educated on me on the process, which I'm very thankful for. I can say without a doubt that the people who educated me know MUCH better than you what it takes to bring a car from the drawing board to the production line.

The last time I turned a wrench? Several months. Then again nothing has broken and none of the fluids have needed changing. Though there is only about 2000 miles left on the current oil. I guess I could take some photos of myself changing it if you want...not terribly impressive though.

Have I seen a 2007 CLK torn apart? Nope. Pretty sure you haven't either. Funny you mention the CLK though. That's the kind of price point you are looking at for a pillarless car these days. Clearly a league the Camaro will NOT be in.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Camino LS6]

Simmer down kids, play nice. :AH-HA_wink:

[Robert Hall]

Simmer down kids, play nice. :AH-HA_wink:

Yes...

Chris: It's pointless trying to argue with Sixty-Eight..he's just a kid (25 or so?). At that age, they think they know everything.. (I was once that young, I know).

[NOS2006]

Let's let it die... only time will tell.

I think there's about a 95% chance the Camaro WILL be a true

pillarless hardtop. The concept is a sign that the designers GET

it now. There ARE some true car guys working at GM and those

people know what's what.

75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[Camino LS6]

Easy guys, let the man alone.

He has to deal with a possiblility that a car he has high hopes for won't be what he expected.

Sound familiar?

[Cory Wolfe]

Easy guys, let the man alone.

He has to deal with a possiblility that a car he has high hopes for won't be what he expected.

Sound familiar?

Oh wow... B-pillars... Such disappointment.

[balthazar]

moltar : >>"Hardtops are neat, I'm not sure how popular they would be today when all cars have A/C..."<<

As you are fond of saying: 'It's not 1970 anymore'.

In other words, hardtops are not about ventilation in 2009, but styling. A/C has nothing to do with the issue.

Chris : I for one would value learning what specific engineering & cost hurdles would oppose an affordable hardtop today. Again- when designing a brand new unique non-convertible shell- making it a hardtop from the start should not be a tremendous deal- the same degree of testing/validation should still be ahead of it. But in this case, with a convertible on deck too, the structural neccessities of the convert should likewise satisfy all design requirements of the hardtop in one shell/ validation process.

What am I missing here??

[Oracle of Delphi]

Yes...

Chris: It's pointless trying to argue with Sixty-Eight..he's just a kid (25 or so?). At that age, they think they know everything.. (I was once that young, I know).

How old are you in dog years?

[Chris_Doane]

Yes...

Chris: It's pointless trying to argue with Sixty-Eight..he's just a kid (25 or so?). At that age, they think they know everything.. (I was once that young, I know).

LOL...actually he and I are the same age (28) according to his profile. I certainly dont claim to know everything about the car building process, but I think I have a better idea thanks to the people who've shared what they know with me.

Anyway, Im done here. Now I know why Evok and AH-HA dont hang around much anymore. :AH-HA_wink:

(You know the funny thing is, I started this thread because of the uproar I saw on Allpar over the Challenger B pillar.)

Edited May 3, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Terry_B]

not mine im getting the rag top

[Satty]

So let's call it $500 per car. WELL WORTH IT.

That's the cost of ONE airbag. Most of today's

cars have four of those. If I am FORCED to

spend hundreds of dollars on things like

airbags & ABS then YES I do expect the car

at least be pleasing to the eye.

I wear my seatbelt, if I get t-boned and I do

not survive then so be it. I seriously doubt

that a B-pillar will make the differance but if

it does then it was my time.

Life is a series of calculated risks.

The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. 68 and I are in similar situation, having a young child who, most likely, rides in the back seat. I would NEVER choose vanity over safety in a car for exactly that reason. The "Oh, it was fate" or "just my time to go" argument is just a cheap way of removing accountability from oneself. There are lots of calculated risks in life, sure, but I would rather play it safe when it comes to the potential of my son being hurt in a crash because the side impact protection met the bare-minimum of government standards.

[Sixty8panther]

Chris:

Yes, I'm 28.

I am stunned to hear that you honestly think that the bulk of the

price differance in price between the upcoming $25-30K Camaro

and the $46,975 to $55,675 MB CLK coupe is from the lack of a

B-pillar. I think an honest estimate of the extra cost of the MB's

hardtop design per-unit would not even be four digits. So let's

call the cost to the consumer $1500.

That is my educated guess, you know so I'm just a jackass

but I'm pretty sure that MB charges that extra $20,000

for things like a seven speed automatic, including the TWO

reverse gears, DOHC aluminum/magnesium V6/V8, keyless

igntion, ESP, 10-way power seats with memory, Burl Walnut

wood trim & the digital dual-zone climate control.

http://www.mbusa.com/models/class-overview...=clk_class_main

But your 2nd to last post seems ot be that the Mercedes is

as expensive as it is simply because of its pillarless

greenhouse. According to your theory the $51,000 E350

sedan should cost $31,000 since it is a sedan.

Satty:

Here's an idea: stop at stop signs & don't run red lights.

That's how you avoid getting hit hard in the side of

your car. Unlike you I have not had the honor of rolling

a car or getting into a life threatening accident. I've

tried to roll a car in the demolition derby but I guess I

have not been so "lucky".

Sorry but I do NOT agree that my Daughter would be in

jeopardy riding in a 2010 Camaro haardtop. Maybe you

could say that strapping down a toddler in a Kappa

ragtop is pushing it but even then, it's HOW you drive

not what you drive.

[Chris_Doane]

I am stunned to hear that you honestly think that the bulk of the

price differance in price between the upcoming $25-30K Camaro

and the $46,975 to $55,675 MB CLK coupe is from the lack of a

B-pillar. I think an honest estimate of the extra cost of the MB's

hardtop design per-unit would not even be four digits. So let's

call the cost to the consumer $1500.

That is my educated guess, you know so I'm just a jackass

but I'm pretty sure that MB charges that extra $20,000

for things like a seven speed automatic, including the TWO

reverse gears, DOHC aluminum/magnesium V6/V8, keyless

igntion, ESP, 10-way power seats with memory, Burl Walnut

wood trim & the digital dual-zone climate control.

http://www.mbusa.com/models/class-overview...=clk_class_main

But your 2nd to last post seems ot be that the Mercedes is

as expensive as it is simply because of its pillarless

greenhouse. According to your theory the $51,000 E350

sedan should cost $31,000 since it is a sedan.

I didn't say any of that AT ALL. You are putting words in my mouth.

HERE is what I said:

Have I seen a 2007 CLK torn apart? Nope. Pretty sure you haven't either. Funny you mention the CLK though. That's the kind of price point you are looking at for a pillarless car these days. Clearly a league the Camaro will NOT be in.

My point was, the extra costs associated with going pillarless are easier to justify with a higher price point/profit margin car like a CLK. In other words, Mercedes would have as easier time making the business case.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[corvette_dude729]

Here's an idea: stop at stop signs & don't run red lights.

That's how you avoid getting hit hard in the side of

your car. Unlike you I have not had the honor of rolling

a car or getting into a life threatening accident. I've

tried to roll a car in the demolition derby but I guess I

have not been so "lucky".

Sorry but I do NOT agree that my Daughter would be in

jeopardy riding in a 2010 Camaro haardtop. Maybe you

could say that strapping down a toddler in a Kappa

ragtop is pushing it but even then, it's HOW you drive

not what you drive.

Sure, driving safely helps reduce your chances of getting in an accident, but what about the asshole that runs the red light when you're in the middle of the intersection. And don't say that "you should have been looking before entering the intersection" because even if you do it is not always preventable. Or how about the drunk driver that comes out of nowhere and rams your car. Accidents are not always dependent on how you drive.

[Sixty8panther]

Vette Dude:

Yes, you're 100% right.

If the Camaro is a hardtop I will instead buy a piece of &#036;h&#33;

Civic 2dr sedan made with steel half as thick as the

Camaro's and that weighs a lot less than an American car

like the Camaro. Surely a 70mph t-bone in a nice SEDAN

will cause no harm to me or the other occupants of my car.

Let's get real, you can live your life or you can live IN FEAR!

I for one DO take a sideglance at intersections when my

daughter is in the car. I have NEVER gotten into an accident

with my daughter in the car.

But guess what? Years form now Sofia will have grown up

having riden in the back of some eat cars and I will have

passed along my passion for cars to her, I'm giving her

the childhood I wish I had.

She rides in a childseat and is always strapped down, but

more importantly I drive defensively.

[bowtie_dude]

Thats it! I'm gonna shoot up the entire design and engineering team for the new Camaro...

Wait...scratch that, I actually don't give a &#036;h&#33; about the B-pillar.

[gm4life]

As much as I dislike pillars, it is gonna be okay and would not stop me from getting one. I think I need to stay out of this thread it is getting very "heated!"

[hyperv6]

I didn't say any of that AT ALL. You are putting words in my mouth.

HERE it what I said:

My point was, the extra costs associated with going pillarless are easier to justify with a higher price point/profit margin car like a CLK. In other words, Mercedes would have as easier time making the business case.

Chris most of us understand and know what you mean. I would just let it go and time will tell.

I know Settlemire has stated price is king on this and it needs to be right. He has even asked people how important is the smell of leather is to many in a car as it add to the cost. The smell of the leather is a added feature they pay extra to add to a car as it is not a natural smell.

They are counting pennies not dollars to keep the cost down and competitive with the Mustang.

At this point anything that can save a dime and not hurt the overall quality of the car is on the table.

I think if more of those upset would recall much of Fbodfathers statments from the last 2 years they would understand why you said what you did.

The Pillar is like some being upset that there is no plan to sell a stripper car. While may say they want one it really does not lower sales if you don't make one. Most people will buy regardless and if it helps the bottom line it will be looked at.

There is no right or wrong here so lets just wait to see what we get and we are going to just have to live with it if the pillar is there.

[Sixty8panther]

All I'm saying is that I will NOT live with it. If the Camaro is a

hardtop I WILL buy one, if it's a 2dr sedan I will not.

It's a free country and that's how I'm spending my money.

[bowtie_dude]

All I'm saying is that I will NOT live with it. If the Camaro is a

hardtop I WILL buy one, if it's a 2dr sedan I will not.

It's a free country and that's how I'm spending my money.

You are so unbelievably petty.

[balthazar]

Attempting to predict the impact strength of a given bodystyle over another is like trying to accurately guess the .cd of a car by looking at it.

[knightfan26917]

play nice.

Wish a few companies would do this........

He has to deal with a possiblility that a car he has high hopes for won't be what he expected.

Sound familiar?

*nods*

All too familiar...........

The "Oh, it was fate" or "just my time to go" argument is just a cheap way of removing accountability from oneself. There are lots of calculated risks in life, sure, but I would rather play it safe.....

Hrm. I like playing it safe, too, and, yeah, this is a bit off the topic of what you posted, but I sure as heck am NOT going to give up my road trips just because of my health issues. Too many people keep telling me that I shouldn't take my road trips, especially by myself, "in case something happens". But, ya know what, if it IS "my time to go" ... I don't really have any control over that.....

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

Edited May 4, 2007 by knightfan26917

[Cory Wolfe]

All I'm saying is that I will NOT live with it. If the Camaro is a

hardtop I WILL buy one, if it's a 2dr sedan I will not.

It's a free country and that's how I'm spending my money.

Ever consider submitting yourself into a mental institution? Seriously.

You've bought Japanese cars, yet you condemn them. You've bought FWD cars, yet you condemn them. You've bought unibody cars, yet you condemn them. You've bought cars with B-pillars, yet you condemn them. So when it comes to the new Camaro, being styled after your favorite generation of Camaro and being a V8 powered, RWD, American sports car, you won't buy it simply because of the B-pillar.

Yeah... That's the absolute most retarded and hypocritical thing I've ever read in the 3.5 years I've been here.

Edited May 4, 2007 by blackviper8891