Let me just save you the "heartbreak"

[Chris_Doane]

With all the recent "uproar" over the Challenger B pillar....there is something you should all start warming up to...

There is a pretty good chance the Camaro is going to have one too.

Cost? Structural rigidity? Side impact?

Yea.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Flybrian]

OMG?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?!??! RU4REAL?!?!??!?! ROTFLMAO?!?!???!?! TTYL?!?!??!?!??! BFF?!?!??!?!??! AT&T?!?!??!?!??!

This completely ruins any street cred the Camaro could ever hope to achieve and eliminates it from ever being a respectable muscle car. Furthermore, it tarnishes the history of every single Camaro ever produced ever and by extension, the history of the Firebird, too. Might as well slap a Solara badge on it and call it a day.

[gm4life]

Oh well it wouldn't stop me from liking it. It is not that big of a deal. Panther will have a fit tho!

[RBB]

OK, that's it. My next RWD V8 muscle car will be a Toyota.

-RBB

[Robert Hall]

OMG?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?!??! RU4REAL?!?!??!?! ROTFLMAO?!?!???!?! TTYL?!?!??!?!??! BFF?!?!??!?!??! AT&T?!?!??!?!??!

This completely ruins any street cred the Camaro could ever hope to achieve and eliminates it from ever being a respectable muscle car. Furthermore, it tarnishes the history of every single Camaro ever produced ever and by extension, the history of the Firebird, too. Might as well slap a Solara badge on it and call it a day.

Heh-heh..is that a parody of a Sixty-Eight rant? Seems like a mild version of one of his rants.

No big deal, IMHO....

[balthazar]

It disappoints me, but would not make-or-break my purchase, were I itching to buy one.

But the so-strong 'modern '69' design of the '09 makes me seriously wonder what the literal / engineering reasons are for making the Camaro sedan rather than a hardtop.

Cost & structural rigidity don't seem like they'd amount to close to a prohibitive amount with a brand new shell- just add the appropriate bracing. Side impact is another issue, tho.

[CSpec]

Looks like 68 will have to buy a CL65.

[91z4me]

OMG?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?!??! RU4REAL?!?!??!?! ROTFLMAO?!?!???!?! TTYL?!?!??!?!??! BFF?!?!??!?!??! AT&T?!?!??!?!??!

This completely ruins any street cred the Camaro could ever hope to achieve and eliminates it from ever being a respectable muscle car. Furthermore, it tarnishes the history of every single Camaro ever produced ever and by extension, the history of the Firebird, too. Might as well slap a Solara badge on it and call it a day.

You feel better now?

[Intrepidation]

OMG?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?!??! RU4REAL?!?!??!?! ROTFLMAO?!?!???!?! TTYL?!?!??!?!??! BFF?!?!??!?!??! AT&T?!?!??!?!??!

This completely ruins any street cred the Camaro could ever hope to achieve and eliminates it from ever being a respectable muscle car. Furthermore, it tarnishes the history of every single Camaro ever produced ever and by extension, the history of the Firebird, too. Might as well slap a Solara badge on it and call it a day.

Oh Fly, you make me laugh so

Sixty8 is gonna $h! a brick when he reads this!

[Drew Dowdell]

OK, that's it. My next RWD V8 muscle car will be a Hyundai.

-RBB

fixed

[Chazman]

With all the recent "uproar" over the Challenger B pillar....there is something you should all start warming up to...

There is a pretty good chance the Camaro is going to have one too.

Cost? Structural rigidity? Side impact?

Yea.

.......and weight.

[Oracle of Delphi]

We don't need no stinking B pillar!

[FAPTurbo]

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.8% of the population will still love the Camaro though.

[Robert Hall]

.......and weight.

Weight is what I thought of...a hardtop could have similar side impact safety/rigidity as a convertible, but would weigh as much or more than a convertible...a 3800lb Camaro doesn't sound too tasty..

[Chris_Doane]

We don't need no stinking B pillar!

Ermm...did you miss the photos of the Challenger body from inside Brampton?

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm shocked! SHOCKED! at this announcement.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ermm...did you miss the photos of the Challenger body from inside Brampton?

No, I saw them, I just like those Red, White and Blue pics!

Edited May 2, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Z-06]

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.8% of the population will still love the Camaro though.

Mr. Booyah why two decimal points? One after 99, and one before 8? Is this a new decimal system to explain what people will buy? :AH-HA_wink:

99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999998% of the population will still love the Camaro though.

Fixed.

[hyperv6]

Lets see here are you options to keep no pillar.

Option 1: 4200 LBS and we all complain

Option 2: $45,000 for the base V6 once they add all the aluminum to lose the weight and we all complain.

Option 3: No Camaro at all and we all complain.

Option 4: Drink a beer, still buy one and just get over it. As it is just a stinking pillar not the end of the world and if any one complains we kick them in the jewels to take their mind off of it.

I was expection a pillar and a lot of crying when it is first seen. To me the pillar is easier to deal with than all the petty pissing and moaning.

If you don't like the pillar just buy the Convertible. It could have been worse, the convert could have had a basket handle roll bar of a Cutlass on it..........................

[big blue]

The Camaro is a B-pillar featuring rolling pile of crap. Going to have to go with the Tiburon now for my speed needs.

[DetroitNut90]

Meh...something tells me that a B-pillar will not have a huge impact on the looks of the car. I can think of worse insults to the Camaro, like being put on Delta or Epsilon and being powered by a 4-cylinder.

[big blue]

Meh...something tells me that a B-pillar will not have a huge impact on the looks of the car. I can think of worse insults to the Camaro, like being put on Delta or Epsilon and being powered by a 4-cylinder.

Or worse, tack the Camaro name onto a minivan.

[Cory Wolfe]

OMG?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?!??! RU4REAL?!?!??!?! ROTFLMAO?!?!???!?! TTYL?!?!??!?!??! BFF?!?!??!?!??! AT&T?!?!??!?!??!

This completely ruins any street cred the Camaro could ever hope to achieve and eliminates it from ever being a respectable muscle car. Furthermore, it tarnishes the history of every single Camaro ever produced ever and by extension, the history of the Firebird, too. Might as well slap a Solara badge on it and call it a day.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Come on now, you guys told me that just having the Camaro back on Zeta was the best thing since sliced bread. Is the bread kind of dry now, or are you just Fair Weather Camaro fans?

[Sixty8panther]

Someday when we're all driving Government issued Corolla Hybrids

all you cna preach to me about the THEORETICAL improved side

impact protection of a 1.5" wide B-pillar made of 1/16th inch of steel

with a fixed (glued in) piece of glass.

It's a free country. I think people with good taste would prefer a true

hardtop. Make fun all you like, I'm passionate about cars. I think 99%

of the populaton considers the Camry a decent, acceptable car, but

that does NOT mean I do not expect more of GM.

Honestly the longer I live the more I am disgusted with the lack of

effort in today's car industry. First it's no two door hardtops, then it's

no four door hardtops, then it's no RWD, then we are told that even

Grand Prixs do not sell well enough in two door (sedans) to make a

business case for a coupe. Then we are told no one wants manual

transmissions anymore.

I'm sick of modern cars being 95% compromise in the name of cost

savings, the stupidity of the general public & safety "advancements".

But hey, laugh it up. People with no standards never get upset about

their expectations being too high.

And as they say: a pessimist is never dissapointed, right?

[knightfan26917]

Or worse, tack the Camaro name onto a minivan.

Oh my. What a thought THAT is ... heh.

As for the B pillar ... I, too, can think of worse insults..........

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"Never compromise what's right" ... Aaron Tippin ... 'You've Got To Stand For Something (Or You'll Fall For Anything)'

[NOS2006]

Someday when we're all driving Government issued Corolla Hybrids

all you cna preach to me about the THEORETICAL improved side

impact protection of a 1.5" wide B-pillar made of 1/16th inch of steel

with a fixed (glued in) piece of glass.

I'm not so sure you can say it's theoretical. Why would they choose to put in a B-Pillar simply because they think it might be better? They wouldn't. Only tests and analysis would give them the best answer. I highly doubt they're making guesses.

It's a free country. I think people with good taste would prefer a true

hardtop. Make fun all you like, I'm passionate about cars. I think 99%

of the populaton considers the Camry a decent, acceptable car, but

that does NOT mean I do not expect more of GM.

The Mustang has a fixed B-Pillar. How many of those have you seen on the road and how many people think they are good looking vehicles? Obviously these people have bad taste.

Honestly the longer I live the more I am disgusted with the lack of

effort in today's car industry. First it's no two door hardtops, then it's

no four door hardtops, then it's no RWD, then we are told that even

Grand Prixs do not sell well enough in two door (sedans) to make a

business case for a coupe. Then we are told no one wants manual

transmissions anymore.

Times change, Uncle Rico. And it's not what we're told, it's what the companies building the cars are told because nobody is buying the things they build in the first place.

I'm sick of modern cars being 95% compromise in the name of cost

savings, the stupidity of the general public & safety "advancements".

When you are willing and able to afford a $60,000 V6 Camaro please let me know. Cost, along with some other variables, is what keeps these things in check, or else the Z06 would weigh 1000 more pounds and be a hell of a lot cheaper with a much worse engine.

But hey, laugh it up. People with no standards never get upset about

their expectations being too high.

Who is laughing? There's a fine line between your standards and modern reality.

In the end, this Camaro will be the best one ever and better than all of its competition. If a B-Pillar is going to hold you from buying one, you need to touch base with reality. And possibly see a doctor about pulling that stick out of your ass.

[Cory Wolfe]

I'm not so sure you can say it's theoretical. Why would they choose to put in a B-Pillar simply because they think it might be better? They wouldn't. Only tests and analysis would give them the best answer. I highly doubt they're making guesses.

The Mustang has a fixed B-Pillar. How many of those have you seen on the road and how many people think they are good looking vehicles? Obviously these people have bad taste.

Times change, Uncle Rico. And it's not what we're told, it's what the companies building the cars are told because nobody is buying the things they build in the first place.

When you are willing and able to afford a $60,000 V6 Camaro please let me know. Cost, along with some other variables, is what keeps these things in check, or else the Z06 would weigh 1000 more pounds and be a hell of a lot cheaper with a much worse engine.

Who is laughing? There's a fine line between your standards and modern reality.

In the end, this Camaro will be the best one ever and better than all of its competition. If a B-Pillar is going to hold you from buying one, you need to touch base with reality. And possibly see a doctor about pulling that stick out of your ass.

[Chris_Doane]

Calm down people. We haven't even seen what a production version is going to look like yet. Unless you are working on the project it's all speculation at this point.

Not really...

It doesn't amount to just wild guessing.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Chris_Doane

[Satty]

Logic (apparently backed up by the contacts Doaniepoo has) dictates that the Camaro have a fixed b-pillar. And the world continues to rotate.

As NOS said, touching base with reality would be a good idea, plenty of people have been passionate about a lot of things (see: Jeffry Dahmer, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, George W Bush) but that doesn't mean they know more, or are superior to, those who think differently. In fact, some of the smartest people I know are the ones who don't seem to get extremely passionate about a subject, being able to look at it from that perspective allows more thorough examination of the subject.

[Intrepidation]

Fixed B-pillar is not the end of the world. We should just be thankful the Camaro is being brought back on a modern, RWD platform, will have great engine choices and looks much like the gorgeous concept.

Besides...with the windows up a hardtop looks like it has a pillar.

[ocnblu]

Well, I guess it's time for me to get over it and ease into resignation and acceptance. We've still got a long ways to go before we see the production version, time enough to clear my mind and let GM do what needs to be done to produce an affordable, beautiful, fun-to-drive RWD sport coupe and convertible. Edited May 2, 2007 by ocnblu

[Oracle of Delphi]

Resistance is futile!

[big blue]

I wonder if anyone was actually serious about the "horrid" B-pillar...besides Sixty8 that is.

[Flybrian]

No. No one cares. One production car of any significant volume is of a hardtop style and that's the Mercedes CLK. Price one.

[balthazar]

Here's TWO who care. But like I said; not to the point of refusing to buy a Camaro if I really wanted one.

When I saw the rear end of my '59 Buick sticking out from a East PA carport, I told my buddy, 'If it's an Invicta 2-dr (which is only a hardtop in the Invicta line), it's mine.' If it had been a LeSabre 2-dr sedan (with a B-Pillar), I would not have bought it. Not interested in a 4-dr of any bodystyle.

But there are a million other compromises in modern cars that I have minor issues with. I have a different set of values when it comes to modern vehicles.

I think the '09 Camaro flat kicks ass design-wise, it's a powerhouse design with a metric ton of attitude, and if in the market for a modern coupe, I'd buy it regardless of it's bodystyle. Still... it should be a hardtop, IMHO.

BTW- adding the required structural steel to a hardtop version meet the same rigidity of a pillared coupe should not add more than 150 lbs at the most.... not the upwards of 600 lbs some here seem to think will be involved. Don't forget that the B-Pillar steel is still included, just in a different location.

[Drew Dowdell]

Someday when we're all driving Government issued Corolla Hybrids

all you cna preach to me about the THEORETICAL improved side

impact protection of a 1.5" wide B-pillar made of 1/16th inch of steel

with a fixed (glued in) piece of glass.

It's a free country. I think people with good taste would prefer a true

hardtop. Make fun all you like, I'm passionate about cars. I think 99%

of the populaton considers the Camry a decent, acceptable car, but

that does NOT mean I do not expect more of GM.

Honestly the longer I live the more I am disgusted with the lack of

effort in today's car industry. First it's no two door hardtops, then it's

no four door hardtops, then it's no RWD, then we are told that even

Grand Prixs do not sell well enough in two door (sedans) to make a

business case for a coupe. Then we are told no one wants manual

transmissions anymore.

I'm sick of modern cars being 95% compromise in the name of cost

savings, the stupidity of the general public & safety "advancements".

But hey, laugh it up. People with no standards never get upset about

their expectations being too high.

And as they say: a pessimist is never dissapointed, right?

the thing is, I can't tell if you're mocking yourself or you're serious....

[Drew Dowdell]

and, if you don't like the 2009 Camaro.... just go buy yourself another 85 Datsun to make yourself feel better.

[Sixty8panther]

Balthazar pretty much summed it up.

If I can add one thing: $60,000 for a Camaro?

So what the extra reinforement in the roof is going to cost

$20,000 & the window regulators & extra weatherstripping

will be an additional $13,000 on top of the Camaro's price

of $27,000 if it was a 2-door sedan?

Now who's being ridiculous?

I think a real world cost annalisys would read something

like this:

$50,000 worth of extra R&D & tooling

$300 worht of matterial costs per unit. (gross est.)

So let's call it $500 per car. WELL WORTH IT.

That's the cost of ONE airbag. Most of today's

cars have four of those. If I am FORCED to

spend hundreds of dollars on things like

airbags & ABS then YES I do expect the car

at least be pleasing to the eye.

I wear my seatbelt, if I get t-boned and I do

not survive then so be it. I seriously doubt

that a B-pillar will make the differance but if

it does then it was my time.

Life is a series of calculated risks.

[Satty]

You're going to be the only person who will consider the Camaro ugly because of the b-pillar, which is a design trait it will have in common with your Buick and your elevently-threve Nissans.

[Drew Dowdell]

You're going to be the only person who will consider the Camaro ugly because of the b-pillar, which is a design trait it will have in common with your Buick and your elevently-threve Datsuns.

fixed

[Sixty8panther]

All I'm saying is they only make VANILLA.

You know like the expression: "That's why they make chocolate & vanilla"

You guys can have your Vanilla but f@#k you for

telling me I am too much of an optimist because

I want my chocolate.

If everyone in the Ato industry had the mentality

that some of you guys do the only domestic cars

on the market would be the Taurus, Impala &

the Intrepid.

Look at the title of this tread: it's obviously

refering to my rant in the Challenger thread about

my disdain for B-pillars.

Speaking of the Datsuns thry're on Craigslist right now:

http://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/car/322109008.html

[thegriffon]

OK, that's it. My next RWD V8 muscle car will be a Toyota.

-RBB

They only sell it in Japan.

[Robert Hall]

Sixty-Eight, you are just going to have to realize it's not 1970 anymore.... new car buyers (which you are not) by and large don't care if a 2dr has a fixed b-pillar or not..(i.e. cars have air conditioning today).

Honestly, you are arguing a point that is trivial to 99.99% of new car buyers...I could understand your dissapointment if the Camaro came out as a FWD 4cyl model, but as a RWD, V8, 2dr coupe, it looks like it's going to be great!

So why don't you just STFU about this subject until the car comes out in 1:1? It's not like you'd buy one anyway (you only buy older used cars?)? :)

Edited May 2, 2007 by moltar

[FAPTurbo]

How could you call this 'Vanilla'?

[Sixty8panther]

I do NOT call it vanilla... there's ZERO B-pillars between those two photos. ZERO.

Moltar:

Like I said, this thread was to instigate me , read the title.

And that's my point, I would LIKE to buy a new car some

time in the future, but it has to be one that does not suck.

The Camaro concept is fantastic, I'm just saying that I

hope GM does not f**k it up on us.

[FAPTurbo]

Well, how about this... could one or a few of our very experienced choppers be able to submit their ideas of what a B-Pillar on the Camaro would look like?

I know it'd be purely hypothetical, but it could help give a small idea of what we could be looking at.

[Drew Dowdell]

I could understand if car companies only made vanilla... but they don't. GM alone makes

Vanilla:

Chocolate:

neapolitan:

Lemon Sherbet:

Pistachio:

Strawberry:

Chocolate Raspberry:

What you're upset about is that they're making Dark Chocolate Macadamia when you *really* wanted Dark Chocolate Macadamia caramel crunch.

[Flybrian]

Sixty8 is right...

Now, its a hideous pile of crap.

You know, this is exactly the kind of irrelevent minutia I said years ago that people would be bitching about come this time. Buick and Pontiac are starved for product, Cadillac's momentum is slowing, GM can't afford for Saturn to properly advertise all its great new cars, and we're worried about a facet of the Camaro that wouldn't have made it through to production anyway.

I'm getting sick of the Camaro already and its thanks to the multitudes of people who bitch and pigeonhole the goddamn thing before it even rolls off the line. I bet not twenty-four hours go by after production photos are released that I'll read inane whining about how the toggle switches are too thick or the gauge font isn't sporty or the rocker panels being too thick or the eggcrating in the grille being too wide. What's even more annoying is those that PMS the loudest about the most inconsequential things CANNOT AFFORD OR WILL NEVER BUY THE f@#kING CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

In a few short years, I want to be able to buy a brand-new Buick. This isn't a 'maybe kind sorta beginning to possibly consider pondering whether I should think about it'; I intend to. Will there be a truly great one there for me? Or will I have to relegate myself to buying used because I, for one, will not buy a Chevrolet. Why? Because its a Chevrolet and there is always something better than a Chevrolet. Don't blame me for that attitude; blame GM. They sold innumerable people on that concept, including me, and now I feel like I'm holding a bill of goods that doesn't exist.

Where are the focus groups on my car?

Where are the proof-of-concepts of my car?

Where's the enthusiasm for my car?

Where's the support from GM for my car?

I really feel that there is none. Now, I don't hate the Camaro; if it sells well, great. But if all this focus and earmarked budget is intended solely for a lowish-volume coupe for a bottom-rung division, then I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

So, to those bitching about idiotic things from the concept that you knew in your heart you'd never see in the real car, just be thankful you have a real car. The closest thing to my dream car is in China.

[Drew Dowdell]

You know, this is exactly the kind of irrelevent minutia I said years ago that people would be bitching about come this time. Buick and Pontiac are starved for product, Cadillac's momentum is slowing, GM can't afford for Saturn to properly advertise all its great new cars, and we're worried about a facet of the Camaro that wouldn't have made it through to production anyway.

I'm getting sick of the Camaro already and its thanks to the multitudes of people who bitch and pigeonhole the goddamn thing before it even rolls off the line. I bet not twenty-four hours go by after production photos are released that I'll read inane whining about how the toggle switches are too thick or the gauge font isn't sporty or the rocker panels being too thick or the eggcrating in the grille being too wide. What's even more annoying is those that PMS the loudest about the most inconsequential things CANNOT AFFORD OR WILL NEVER BUY THE f@#kING CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

In a few short years, I want to be able to buy a brand-new Buick. This isn't a 'maybe kind sorta beginning to possibly consider pondering whether I should think about it'; I intend to. Will there be a truly great one there for me? Or will I have to relegate myself to buying used because I, for one, will not buy a Chevrolet. Why? Because its a Chevrolet and there is always something better than a Chevrolet. Don't blame me for that attitude; blame GM. They sold innumerable people on that concept, including me, and now I feel like I'm holding a bill of goods that doesn't exist.

my old quote comes back to life here:

GM could produce a fully functional working model of Christ himself and people would bitch that the water to wine function only dispenses Merlot.