GM RWD info

[Camino LS6]

Link:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=518037

[Chris_Doane]

Some of it is right...some of it isn't.

[Drew Dowdell]

it contradicts itself....

[Camino LS6]

Some of it is right...some of it isn't.

Care to clarify?

[Chris_Doane]

Care to clarify?

Some of the timing is off. Other parts may not be true at all.

[Camino LS6]

And you can't be more specific, right?

[regfootball]

reagrdless of what is true.....what is disturbing is that apparently GM still has no clue and still takes FOREVER to do anything. No one is going to wait for this crap to develop. 2010> 2012? My God, you need to move faster! Everyone wants to see progress in the showroom NOW. Time has run out. GM needs to pull its $h! together and figure out how to get enough dollars and resources to get their best to market NOW. And then new model cycles every 3 years. 4 years max. This is maddening, frustrating, and irritating. At some point you don't even care anymore about their union costs, benefit costs, yada yada.......

with the pace they do things they really ought to die. because its like watching a mentally challenged kid with his shoelaces tied together tripping and falling run in a race against Carl Lewis and Willie Gault.

Edited April 30, 2007 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

While the timing is drawn out yet again, it seems to tie up alot of the loose ends we've been speculating on - the fate of the STS, when the G6 will migrate to RWD, an Alpha BLS for the NA market. I have to wonder about acceptance for a larger CTS, but even that aspect (at first blush) makes perfect sense - those who bought the CTS are used to a larger-than-class car anyway.

One hopes more is true than wrong...

[Chris_Doane]

it seems to tie up alot of the loose ends we've been speculating on

Not necessarily.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I doubt the market will justify all these GM cars on Zeta, which is what is really giving Lutz pause, not CAFE. CAFE is just the excuse.

[Camino LS6]

I doubt the market will justify all these GM cars on Zeta, which is what is really giving Lutz pause, not CAFE. CAFE is just the excuse.

You are one depressing guy to have around.

[Robert Hall]

reagrdless of what is true.....what is disturbing is that apparently GM still has no clue and still takes FOREVER to do anything. No one is going to wait for this crap to develop. 2010> 2012? My God, you need to move faster! Everyone wants to see progress in the showroom NOW. Time has run out. GM needs to pull its $h! together and figure out how to get enough dollars and resources to get their best to market NOW. And then new model cycles every 3 years. 4 years max. This is maddening, frustrating, and irritating. At some point you don't even care anymore about their union costs, benefit costs, yada yada.......

with the pace they do things they really ought to die. because its like watching a mentally challenged kid with his shoelaces tied together tripping and falling run in a race against Carl Lewis and Willie Gault.

Makes me wonder...are they still going to be building their old W &G FWD models with 4-spd autos through 2010-2011?

[Camino LS6]

Makes me wonder...are they still going to be building their old W &G FWD models with 4-spd autos through 2010-2011?

They're dead if they do.

[Chris_Doane]

Makes me wonder...are they still going to be building their old W &G FWD models with 4-spd autos through 2010-2011?

No.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Why do you say that? Forums are for discussions, I present another view, that's all. The world would be a very boring place if we all agreed.

[Camino LS6]

I'm feeling a bit better now that Guion M posted this over at CZ28:

You nailed Zeta on Holden's side and Pontiac's plans.

Outside of that, Sigma's writing is on the wall but I wouldn't expect the next CTS to grow in size beyond the 2008 model. Zeta is a cheaper and better structure than Sigma, so it's essentially an open & shut case to move it to Cadillac.

In addition to the Camaro & Impala, I'd also expect the El Camino here during the 2009CY, making it a really fun time to be a Chevrolet enthusiast.

I haven't seriously believed Chevrolet would have a large coupe since it began looking very likely Holden would be making the Monaro replacemnt in Australia instead of in North America (last fall). The whole basis of building the large coupes here in NA was that Chevrolet's volume would make it worthwhile. While I can easily see Chevrolet importing a version as a Chevrolet "GTO" (it's going to be sold in the Middle East as a Chevy anyway), I don't see 35-45,000 G8s and another 12-15,000 GTOs and another 150-160,000 Holdens for local and world distribution leaving much room for another 15-20,000 Chevy coupes. I'll be the 1st to admit it's possible (to fill out capacity), but I wouldn't bet my beer money on it at the moment.

I'm out of the loop on recent developments on the small RWD chassis (been preoccupied). Can tell you the basic premise is to create a new versitile architecture to bolt the Solstice's IRS, front suspension, and drivetrain to (it's NOT a revised Kappa).

The Torana concept was an offshoot of a competition between GM North America and GM Holden to create the structure (NA's version won BTW... Torana's starting point was Zeta). But the size of the Torana is what we're looking at. Pontiac, Holden, Opel (including Saturn), and Cadillac will have models based on this architecture, and the early leading candidate to build them is Wilmington (lots of things can change between now & then, though).

This small chassis will be the basis for sedans and a coupes. It initially started out as a '4 cylinder only' structure, last heard was the idea was changed to accept V6s. GM-Holden sees the chassis as a volume sucessor to the VE. GM-North America sees it as the next performance car chassis.

This is being eyed as a G6 successor. Unless Camaro sales simply flat-out take off (meaning approaching 200K annually) and the coupe market explodes, common wisdom is this is probally the only chance of seeing the Firebird return.

[PONTIAC06]

Some of it sounds good, but some of it sounds like speculation to me... What ever happened to Chi? or did I miss its cancellation?

[Camino LS6]

Why do you say that? Forums are for discussions, I present another view, that's all. The world would be a very boring place if we all agreed.

I assume you meant me?

It's just that you are predicting doom for the only programs (RWD) that I care about. And, what you hope to see happen would effectively end my interest in GM cars. Not to mention, your opinion about Lutz's "replacement". Not exactly uplifting stuff from my vantage point.

[turbo200]

I doubt the market will justify all these GM cars on Zeta, which is what is really giving Lutz pause, not CAFE. CAFE is just the excuse.

you're wrong.

see, more than one person can blow smoke without giving good reason.

[Robert Hall]

I assume you meant me?

It's just that you are predicting doom for the only programs (RWD) that I care about. And, what you hope to see happen would effectively end my interest in GM cars. Not to mention, your opinion about Lutz's "replacement". Not exactly uplifting stuff from my vantage point.

Same here..the RWD models are the only ones that remotely interest me, the only ones that would bring me to buy a new GM product...

[FAPTurbo]

So what if a car is RWD... just because it is RWD doesn't mean it is REQUIRED to have a fuel thirsty V8.

So why would the market not justify having four cylinder and efficient six-cylinder RWD vehicles?

[Robert Hall]

So what if a car is RWD... just because it is RWD doesn't mean it is REQUIRED to have a fuel thirsty V8.

So why would the market not justify having four cylinder and efficient six-cylinder RWD vehicles?

True...there is definitely a market for smaller 4cyl and 6cyl RWD models, I think...look at the '08 Caddy CTS..sounds like it's going be an excellent sports sedan with a V6.. I would think other future RWD GMs could use the 3.6.

[turbo200]

what would be poetic justice is every "practical" mind here who cries for FWD be forced to also drive hybrids only. The slowest damn hybrids all into FWDs. And then let the market dictate that RWD cars have a range of options. Since the reason for having FWD is because it's "mainstream" and "practical" and "safe". What's safer than a 110 hp FWD car?

But getting serious, a Zeta car with a weight of about 3600 lbs, and a 2.2 4-cyl DI with 180 hp would be great as the volume model, imo. Acheive gas mileage of 28/35 and you'd have all the midsizers beat. Of course, the reality of GM is they would never have this kind of forward thinking. Of course, Alpha would be truly suited to efficient 4 cyl. 4 cyl engines can be fun!, witness the Accord 4-cyl, in stick shift mode that car is fun tight light tossable and refined, and gas efficient.

[Northstar]

This all seems possible but there are certainly some parts that are not correct. Also, I don't see how anyone, Bob Lutz included, knows what's happening for sure past 2011-12. All of that is still in the debating process. This guy claims they already have the 2nd gen BRX figured out. Well, the first gen BRX doesn't come out for quite a while.

[Supremus]

This all seems possible but there are certainly some parts that are not correct. Also, I don't see how anyone, Bob Lutz included, knows what's happening for sure past 2011-12. All of that is still in the debating process. This guy claims they already have the 2nd gen BRX figured out. Well, the first gen BRX doesn't come out for quite a while.

Yes, but remember we are already in the 2008 MY, so the 2010's are being locked right now. It's pretty safe to assume the plans for 2012-13 are already in motion.

[Northstar]

Yes, but remember we are already in the 2008 MY, so the 2010's are being locked right now. It's pretty safe to assume the plans for 2012-13 are already in motion.

That is reasonable to assume, but it's not as set in stone as he makes it sound. Anything after 2012 or so should say "possibly" in front of it.

Hell, it is possible we will see a 2015 Cadillac Cien with 6 turbos and 1500HP to put the Veyron to shame

[Oracle of Delphi]

you're wrong.

see, more than one person can blow smoke without giving good reason.

Awww turbo200, I don't lose any sleep over what you say either. You do have opinions don't you? So far all I've seen from you are reiterations of what someone else has already said. Do you have any original thoughts? I would be happy to entertain some, should you happen upon one.

[Northstar]

If you don't want to discuss the topic of the thread, go elsewhere and discuss what you want. This is fair warning to everyone to stay on-subject. Thank you.

[regfootball]

what would be poetic justice is every "practical" mind here who cries for FWD be forced to also drive hybrids only. The slowest damn hybrids all into FWDs. And then let the market dictate that RWD cars have a range of options. Since the reason for having FWD is because it's "mainstream" and "practical" and "safe". What's safer than a 110 hp FWD car?

But getting serious, a Zeta car with a weight of about 3600 lbs, and a 2.2 4-cyl DI with 180 hp would be great as the volume model, imo. Acheive gas mileage of 28/35 and you'd have all the midsizers beat. Of course, the reality of GM is they would never have this kind of forward thinking. Of course, Alpha would be truly suited to efficient 4 cyl. 4 cyl engines can be fun!, witness the Accord 4-cyl, in stick shift mode that car is fun tight light tossable and refined, and gas efficient.

Since the current G6 doesn't get 28/35 with what is basically the same engine and weight and FWD, I am not sure how you'd ever get 28/35 out of a heavy RWD car like that. And even then it doesn't crack the 200hp barrier. My 500 weighs only 100 pounds more than that with 200hp on tap and it gets roasted for being slow. If they could bring the weight down to 3200 pounds (like the weight of a FWD Accord or Altima) then you may be onto something.

[Flybrian]

What Northie said.

On RWD vs. FWD, remember that drivetrain configuration is but one variable that determines an automobiles success. Myself, I'd rather have a world-class FWD car (G-body) over a lousy RWD one (Crown Vic) and the market tends to agree. Fact is, final drive wheels do not sell a car by itself; look at what a great job the Fords are doing. But a well-executed world-class RWD car has a destiny that no one can deny.

Look at how well Chrysler did at first with an ugly "wagon", a last-minute Dodge, and a cartoon of what a car from the USA should look like. And let's be honest here: Chrysler has absolutely no business making cars and haven't since the 1960s; the fact that they can't sell these 'world-class' LX cars today is proof. Ford still makes rear-wheel drive cars but they're such junk no one even cares.

You think GM will do as poorly as its neighbors did? You think people in this country won't fall in love with a line of well-executed, well-built, bespoke cars, something that they still really haven't seen yet?

If anyone can create authenticly American cars, its General Motors. And if GM can't do it with its resources, its know-how, and its heritage, then my friends, you may as well put a deposit on your Hyundai Snoremobile today.

[Z-06]

Since the current G6 doesn't get 28/35 with what is basically the same engine and weight and FWD, I am not sure how you'd ever get 28/35 out of a heavy RWD car like that. And even then it doesn't crack the 200hp barrier. My 500 weighs only 100 pounds more than that with 200hp on tap and it gets roasted for being slow. If they could bring the weight down to 3200 pounds (like the weight of a FWD Accord or Altima) then you may be onto something.

That makes sense. As I mentioned in one of the threads for the birth of a RWD G-6, it is very imperative that the weight of the RWD car stay under 3200. The Nissan Altima and the Honda Accord four bangers weight about 3150 lbs. A 3600 lb car is not going to get the 28-35 mpg as turbo is pointing out and we have the 2008 "real world" MPG coming up.

Probably, Chevy can bring a unique full sized RWD. A car with all the engines as hybrids. I.e. one turbocharged four banger, one V-6 and one V-8, all of them mated to hybrids, which are more on the taste of Accord V-6, than the Prius. But then it will probably end up being a niche car and kill the volume.

GM needs Alpha regardless. If CTS going to go upside, it will create a big hole, which they need to fill in. Moreover, I like idea of 1-series fighter from the Caddy. Smaller RWD. I do not think that will be impossible to make with a modified Kappa.

[regfootball]

What Northie said.

On RWD vs. FWD, remember that drivetrain configuration is but one variable that determines an automobiles success. Myself, I'd rather have a world-class FWD car (G-body) over a lousy RWD one (Crown Vic) and the market tends to agree. Fact is, final drive wheels do not sell a car by itself; look at what a great job the Fords are doing. But a well-executed world-class RWD car has a destiny that no one can deny.

Look at how well Chrysler did at first with an ugly "wagon", a last-minute Dodge, and a cartoon of what a car from the USA should look like. And let's be honest here: Chrysler has absolutely no business making cars and haven't since the 1960s; the fact that they can't sell these 'world-class' LX cars today is proof. Ford still makes rear-wheel drive cars but they're such junk no one even cares.

You think GM will do as poorly as its neighbors did? You think people in this country won't fall in love with a line of well-executed, well-built, bespoke cars, something that they still really haven't seen yet?

If anyone can create authenticly American cars, its General Motors. And if GM can't do it with its resources, its know-how, and its heritage, then my friends, you may as well put a deposit on your Hyundai Snoremobile today.

I only know a couple things.

the current DCX 300 did great out of the gate. Now DCX has big trouble moving cars.

I also know the last gen FWD Chrysler 300 did quite well. Its stablemates, the Concorde, LHS and Intrepid did exceptionally well as well. I don't recall this group being as difficult to move as DCX's iron is right now.

In Chrysler's case, the success of each 300 product is primarily due to style and overal vehicle execution, not drive wheels. Both versions of the 300 won praise for being great cars and both sold because of that. Both versions are good cars.

That said, it's hard to imagine the current 300 having FWD. Just as hard to imagine is trying to apply RWD to the last gen 300. Both cars managed to have success. The current 300 tapped a market that was unserved for awhile. Now that that market has been served for awhile, we might see sales drop. The FWD LH's sold well not tapping into an unserved market.

Again, it all boils down to the flavor of the car and the execution. Not every car needs to be FWD. However, I think the appeal of many cars if they were RWD would go in the crapper. For example, volume cars like Accord and Camry would see big sales nosedives if they became RWD. Look at how the Impala sold way better when it swtiched from RWD to FWD.

We all know a RWD based chassis makes for a more dynamically sound car but as an attribute that actually moves metal to the masses, I don't think it has the big draw some of you think it does.

Edited April 30, 2007 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

Again, it all boils down to the flavor of the car and the execution. Not every car needs to be FWD. However, I think the appeal of many cars if they were RWD would go in the crapper. For example, volume cars like Accord and Camry would see big sales nosedives if they became RWD. Look at how the Impala sold way better when it swtiched from RWD to FWD.

Remember also that the lower-volume RWD Impala will be sold alongside a FWD EpII Malibu that will be roughly the same size, cheaper, and offer smaller engines. Remember also that the last Caprice was a huge car...very huge and honestly woefully-equipped in terms of creature comforts. I think the Lumina could be outfitted more luxuriously and I certainly know cars like the Park Avenue and Seville/DeVille were far more advanced than thier B-body stablemates.

Having a G-body-sized RWD lineup over higher-volume FWD cars gives a little something for everyone and those who are typically willing to pay a little extra for more performance or luxury tend to go RWD. However, as said, the car must be well-executed. Did front-wheel drive play a role in the DeVille/DTS' outrageous success over the past two decades? Sure. But the fact that it was simply a far better car than the rival Town Car was the key factor. Everyone knocks the DTS, but reviews are still positive because of its refined chassis and fun gadgets; no one even reviews the Town Car anymore. Why bother?

[Z-06]

300 rode the halo of being outrageous. Once the halo subsided, the people are starting to look into the crappy interior and build quality. What is not helping Diamler is the other products are suddenly looking bland and crappy. The FWD 300 and its other stablemates were better executed. The interior was at least good looking in the older 300 compared to the set squares and rulers drawn LX platform.

Like Brian said, a car's success should be on four things

1. Good Design

2. Thought out Details

3. Execution of build quality and engineering, AND Safety

4. Fuel Economy at least on par with others

If they satisfy all the four, I do not think the people will care more or less for which wheel powers it. Look at the BMW 3 series and Acura TL type S. They both weigh same, have almost the same HP, and also almost the same fuel economy. That said, it is only perception that RWD fuel economy will suck or that RWD are unsafe to drive.

[gm4life]

Fly has hit it agian and people don't want to here not everyone wants all RWD. Cadillac and Buick need FWD large sedans. There still is a market and a FWD G5/G6 frankly make alot of common sense for Pontiac. Even with the performance image. Honestly folks the news wasn't that disapointing I just want the Park Avenue along with the SLS in China. Drop the STS let the CTS pick up the sales if you want a V8 go and don't want the CTS-V go for the DTS or pop for an SLS. All GM needs to do is update the G-Platform (when I say update I mean significantly) and give them 6spd. autos and the Caddy could use more distintive styling from the old 00-05 Deville/DHS/DTS. Other than that I say let the RWD cars, come and it is no sercet we weren't going to see a Chevelle, with the Camaro coming. I would frankly rather have a 45K Buick GNX with a direct injection and a twin turbo 3.6L V6 and say 450hp and 6spd. auto and manual for Buick, that would be sweet. The large FWD GM cars must stay killing them is like pissing 150-175K sales down the toliet maybe more... Who would want to do that? Oh yes all the crazy people who ONLY want RWD luxury cars, I want RWD too, but only to a certain extent. Also this will piss someone off Pontiac needs a CUV like the Torrent to survive!

Edited April 30, 2007 by gm4life

[regfootball]

Fly has hit it agian and people don't want to here not everyone wants all RWD. Cadillac and Buick need FWD large sedans. There still is a market and a FWD G5/G6 frankly make alot of common sense for Pontiac. Even with the performance image. Honestly folks the news wasn't that disapointing I just want the Park Avenue along with the SLS in China. Drop the STS let the CTS pick up the sales if you want a V8 go and don't want the CTS-V go for the DTS or pop for an SLS. All GM needs to do is update the G-Platform (when I say update I mean significantly) and give them 6spd. autos and the Caddy could use more distintive styling from the old 00-05 Deville/DHS/DTS. Other than that I say let the RWD cars, come and it is no sercet we weren't going to see a Chevelle, with the Camaro coming. I would frankly rather have a 45K Buick GNX with a direct injection and a twin turbo 3.6L V6 and say 450hp and 6spd. auto and manual for Buick, that would be sweet. The large FWD GM cars must stay killing them is like pissing 150-175K sales down the toliet maybe more... Who would want to do that? Oh yes all the crazy people who ONLY want RWD luxury cars, I want RWD too, but only to a certain extent. Also this will piss someone off Pontiac needs a CUV like the Torrent to survive!

I ain't gonna get into that again after the Pontiac thread, but on fly's point...know that the TL-s is quite a bit more commodious than the 3 series example he used. Aside from that notable difference, the examples he uses is the deal.

For me, I'd be pleased as punch with another well done FWD car like my 89 SHO, or I suppose which is what the TL is today. Mid sized (TRUE mid sized). Strong v6, competent handling....simple design, and good winter get around capabilities. For me with that config I get a car that I know I can get around with every day of the year and it has good space utilization in the cabin. I know the engineers can tune the chassis for as much handling capability as I would ever need, and I know I can still get a firm enough ride. I get the predictable feel I like and no worries about it being tail happy. My limits will be tougher to reach with a good FWD chassis. I might have some torque steer and the steering might be a bit heavy but good engineering can almost eliminate those things.

I do like the way RWD based cars drive but for it to be desirable and useful and attractive to me then it's gotta be an AWD variant of it. 25, 30, 35k + is too much $$$$ to spend on a car to have to deal with either the hassle and cost of snows, or to even put ballast in the trunk and even then it's still not a great solution to have to deal with that crap. The hassle of taking far longer than everyone else getting away from stoplights on snowy days. The inability to make it up an icy inclined driveway. Electronics doesn't solve those age old problems as completely despite what some say. I don't 'track race' and I don't drive 'twistys' and I would guess few others do also. I like the steering feel of a RWD vehicle and neutral handling but if the execution is crown vic like as opposed to GTO like then what is the point. In the end my RWD which is a bit heavier to start gets a bit more heavy with the needed AWD. As compared to a FWD/AWD car its a negligable difference but compared to a FWD only setup now there may be some added bulk which may negate the better steering.

So it is overall execution that matters most. But I think the everyday virtues a FWD based car brings to the table cannot just be thrown away. And it appeals to a broader x-section of the market, which drives more $$$$$ overall.

GM may be wise to work towards 5-6 platforms to satisfy all buyers and markets (cars).

a subcompact FWD chassis (maybe need 2 versions of this for all markets, one 'old' , one 'new')

a compact to small medium FWD chassis (maybe need 2 versions of this for all markets, like above)

a mid to large mid to large FWD based with AWD optional

a small medium to mid RWD/AWD optional

a mid to large mid to large to very large RWD with AWD optional (ZEta)

I would then add Lambdas to that for the Acadias and whatever minivans or ridgeline clones are to come of that.

You'd also then have Kappa and Corvette chassis.

Edited April 30, 2007 by regfootball

[gm4life]

Reg made some good points.

[Camino LS6]

GM may be wise to work towards 5-6 platforms to satisfy all buyers and markets (cars).

a subcompact FWD chassis (maybe need 2 versions of this for all markets, one 'old' , one 'new')

a compact to small medium FWD chassis (maybe need 2 versions of this for all markets, like above)

a mid to large mid to large FWD based with AWD optional

a small medium to mid RWD/AWD optional

a mid to large mid to large to very large RWD with AWD optional (ZEta)

I would then add Lambdas to that for the Acadias and whatever minivans or ridgeline clones are to come of that.

You'd also then have Kappa and Corvette chassis.

Would it surprise you that I don't disagree with the basic premise you lay out ? I might disagree on some of the size details and What we will likely have is Zeta and Alpha with Alpha replacing Kappa. Those two and the Y-car chassis will likely be it for RWD. But overall we mostly agree when looking at the big picture.

Where we differ most is in the application of these architectures to the product mix. I don't favor any FWD for Pontiac and you do. I also don't think much of FWD being applied to large cars, I think those days should be behind us. I know you don't see it that way, but I wanted to point out the amount of agreement we can find this go-round.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

It is times like this I just sit back and watch. It makes for interesting reading. I stay out of these things. I have been where most of the people are here. When your division is dead, you do not have to fear or dread or worry if your division will get this are that. You do not have to worry if your division will have to fight for this are that.

I feel for the Pontiac people because they are getting a car they want, but they want it to look like a 1960's or 1970's Pontiac. Chrysler just did it. It will last only for so long. That is why G8 has to be contemporary or European/BMW 5 series looking to get people like Moltar to even look at it. .....

I feel for Buick people because the product is there(China) and they have to wait and time is working against them and their favorite division.

Cadillac people are in a better position because they are going to get it no matter what.

Chevy people are like the Cadillac people but there is envy from Buick and Pontiac people. They are fighting for product people.

I feel for SAAB people because they are the step child that still has no support or product to back them up. They segment they are in has changed so much and they have not kept up.

Saturn people are the best off because they are European and Opel /Vauxhall in nature. They just need recognition and marketing. They are not doing what the others are doing. They are not replacing Oldsmobile either. If they were I would have two in my driveway. GM needs to build on that aspect and market Saturn. A commercial was just on tv. That Aura commercial does not sell that car. They won an award so????

If you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at GM for bad management, poor decisions, tarnishing all the legendary name plates, misjudging the market and telling you what they "think you need" instead of giving you what you want. Be mad at them for getting the product right and then killing it( Allante, Fiero, Bonneville GXP)

Ford and Chrysler have not figured it out either. Chrysler almost did, but they stumbled after 300 and Charger. Ford just never updated what they have and have no direction.

Money is too tight to mention at GM...

Toyota is successful like Honda because they are cashing in on Detroit's misfortune and lack of common sense. They sold the quality. They are selling the reputation. Let's be honest.. The Honda and Toyota's are not stylish. They do the job well like Detroit cars used to do. GM lost sight of that.

Let's go back to a time when GM was successful the early 1980's:

They have a small car platform( J car)

A mid sized front drive platform(A Body)

A mid sized rear drive platform ( G Body)

A family full sized rear drive platform ( B body)

Full sized luxury car ( C Body)

A luxury coupe segment or personal luxury( E and K body)

They were not truck heavy.

The the late 1980's and 1990's came: All hell broke loose.

They are still over 20 years later trying to fix this.

Saturn was the monkey wrench in everyone's plan.

They became truck heavy

Almost every car was front wheel drive

The rear drive cars were killed because they GM thought trucks were the way to go instead of redesigning the rear drive cars.

They downsized their cars and cloned them and paid for that mistake.

GM had the market. They had the names. They had the styling. Several bad leaders who walked away with huge packages left damage.

GM became dealership heavy.

Wayne Cherry felt GM North America GM should have nothing to do with the rest of global GM when he was design chief. He made sure of that. GM North America became isolated and arrogant.

Folks.. you cannot undo 20 years of bad mistakes in 6 months to a year. It takes time. Cultures must change. minds must change, perceptions must change, a generation of buyers were lost. You start to change it through your marketing and mission.

Let me link you to GM commercials to make a point:

1989 Grand Prix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pinA0ew_rIE

Listen to that? Pontiac had a song. A commercial that showed what a Pontiac is. You identified with the brand. I admit it, underpowered as it was (2.8 liter V6 ( 130 hp) and fwd) the 89 Grand Prix was a cool looking car, and had a great theme song.

A full line Pontiac ad:

The song. The pictures. The theme. The images. It shows what Pontiac is.

1985 Pontiac 6000 STE:

Look at that. That commercial makes you want to go check that car out. That commercial shows what a Pontiac is.. The touted the awards they won.

Other 1980's Pontiac commercials:

1980's Pontiac Fiero GT commercial:

1987 Pontiacs commercial:

1987 Pontiac commercial( Fiero GT, Firebird Trans Am, Subird Turbo):

1969 Pontiac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLKXJlAZBxI

Even 1969 they got it.. It had a theme and a message. You knew they were widetrack and more.

2004 Pontiac ad:

Says nothing about Pontiac. So?? it has horsepower.... Cars in a garage....

Buick used to get it too.

1988 Buick Regal commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9mptYFDT0M

A theme. A song you remember and associate with the brand. A proud American car. The car moves in the commercial like a Buick. You see the luxury. They even talk about the features. The way things are now, you might as well say the great Chinese Road belongs to Buick.

The 2004 Buick LaCrosse commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWzBejDt2HQ

Chinese LaCrosse commercial:

It makes you want to consider the car by what it shows you and tells you.

Not even the same Buick. The commercial does not convey Buick.

Cadillac got it in the 1987 Cadillac Eldorado ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU49ltKDXNQ

It tells you how Cadillac was different. It shows you luxury. You forget that car is underpowered at a 130 hp. You see the technology and features.

The 1992 Deville commercial:

and

That commercial sold that Deville. You forgot it was front wheel drive. They touted facts and features and the status they had.

The new DTS ads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1s7F_Jof68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-uhCNzHJVE

And I want to buy this car why?? It told me nothing about the cars.

Thank you for letting me make my point and to let you know I understand and I feel for you all. Just remember having a bunch of rear drive cars does not guarantee sales. It is the mission, marketing and the company behind the product.

Edited May 1, 2007 by NINETY EIGHT REGENCY

[gm4life]

Great post and I so enjoyed that second '92 Deville winning ad, the 89 GP ad also the Regal ad was sweet!

[Ravenfreak13]

The regel...o I loved that car when my dad had it...what a rock. well made commercial too.

Todays buicks cant really claim new things like that regal commercial did because todays buicks are just pricey chevies.

[knightfan26917]

Same here..the RWD models are the only ones that remotely interest me, the only ones that would bring me to buy a new GM product...

*nods*

Same here, too!

As for the article itself ... as others have written, interesting read. I guess we'll see....

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

"I want a 2-tone Chevrolet" ... BJ Thomas ... '2-Car Garage'

[regfootball]

Would it surprise you that I don't disagree with the basic premise you lay out ? I might disagree on some of the size details and What we will likely have is Zeta and Alpha with Alpha replacing Kappa. Those two and the Y-car chassis will likely be it for RWD. But overall we mostly agree when looking at the big picture.

Where we differ most is in the application of these architectures to the product mix. I don't favor any FWD for Pontiac and you do. I also don't think much of FWD being applied to large cars, I think those days should be behind us. I know you don't see it that way, but I wanted to point out the amount of agreement we can find this go-round.

yeah. i think one FWD car is still worthy in pontiac land at least to allow for more sales $$$ and provide contrast to the RWD G8. I also subscribe to the flybrian theory that many folks over the last 20+ years have grown to love large GM FWD cars and so why slap them in the face right now also. Go home to my parents area or where my inlaws are and large FWD GM cars are as prevalent as BMW 3's in OC.

I just look at Chrysler right now. They put ALL their eggs in one basket. The macho Hemi RWD basket and now they are caught with their pants down. The too narrowly focused and somewhat small Avenger and Sebring cannot make up for losing the appeal they had with Sebring and Stratus and LH cars. Now DCX does not have a large fwd car and deserved or not, the 300 has a rep of a fuel sucker (even though the v6 versions probably get ok mileage). Its examples like that they lead me away from any GM division (sans Saab or Caddy or Hummer) getting too narrowly focused while the dealer networks remain as large as they do. If you were to tell me GM had unlimited porject budgets ala Toyota and could refresh new models 39 months on center and have stellar and stunning efforts with each new model I might agree to focus Pontiac etc. a bit sharper but GM is pathetic enough in getting new models up and running the way it is.

Edited May 1, 2007 by regfootball

[Chicagoland]

Lets look at GM in the 80's again, when they started the steep decline:

J body, was heavy and slow and not as good as Civic, provided the much maligned cookie cutter Cimarron and the other badged cars, nobody misses these

A body, slow seller at first, and again 'cookie cutter boxes'. Only Pontiac 6000 was memorable. Then the Taurus turned them into old lady/rental car for years to come. Anyone who thinks these were 'great cars' must be over 80 y/o

G body at time was on the way out in favor of the W's. The cult car GN was not enough to keep the whole line going.

B body, was fine until Orca styled 91

Only die hard GM loyalists think some of the above were 'great', [and even love old Chevettes and Vegas]. To anyone else, they are forgotten.

Anyway, on topic, 2010 is not 'the far future' as some think. Some 08's are on the street, and MY 2007 officially ends in 5 months. So, 2.5 years away til MY 2010. Remember it isn't 'the early 2000's' anymore!

Edited May 1, 2007 by Chicagoland

[ZL-1]

I'm feeling a bit better now that Guion M posted this over at CZ28:

(...)

I'm out of the loop on recent developments on the small RWD chassis (been preoccupied). Can tell you the basic premise is to create a new versitile architecture to bolt the Solstice's IRS, front suspension, and drivetrain to (it's NOT a revised Kappa).

(...)

This small chassis will be the basis for sedans and a coupes. It initially started out as a '4 cylinder only' structure, last heard was the idea was changed to accept V6s. GM-Holden sees the chassis as a volume sucessor to the VE. GM-North America sees it as the next performance car chassis.

Good premises to build on!

I hope roadsters can be part of the program as well (NG Solstice), although I'd like to see a closed NG Opel GT. Re the V6 idea as well: IMO a RWD Cadillac BLS will need at least one V6 option, and if the V6 availability can be built into the architecture without development costs getting out of hand, then go fo it.

EDIT - Could this Alpha offer an AWD option as well?...

Edited May 1, 2007 by ZL-1

[regfootball]

Lets look at GM in the 80's again, when they started the steep decline:

J body, was heavy and slow and not as good as Civic, provided the much maligned cookie cutter Cimarron and the other badged cars, nobody misses these

A body, slow seller at first, and again 'cookie cutter boxes'. Only Pontiac 6000 was memorable. Then the Taurus turned them into old lady/rental car for years to come. Anyone who thinks these were 'great cars' must be over 80 y/o

G body at time was on the way out in favor of the W's. The cult car GN was not enough to keep the whole line going.

B body, was fine until Orca styled 91

Only die hard GM loyalists think some of the above were 'great', [and even love old Chevettes and Vegas]. To anyone else, they are forgotten.

Anyway, on topic, 2010 is not 'the far future' as some think. Some 08's are on the street, and MY 2007 officially ends in 5 months. So, 2.5 years away til MY 2010. Remember it isn't 'the early 2000's' anymore!

2.5 is an eternity in the business world. GM can't afford to be crap for another 2.5 years.

[ponchoman49]

It is times like this I just sit back and watch. It makes for interesting reading. I stay out of these things. I have been where most of the people are here. When your division is dead, you do not have to fear or dread or worry if your division will get this are that. You do not have to worry if your division will have to fight for this are that.

I feel for the Pontiac people because they are getting a car they want, but they want it to look like a 1960's or 1970's Pontiac. Chrysler just did it. It will last only for so long. That is why G8 has to be contemporary or European/BMW 5 series looking to get people like Moltar to even look at it. .....

I feel for Buick people because the product is there(China) and they have to wait and time is working against them and their favorite division.

Cadillac people are in a better position because they are going to get it no matter what.

Chevy people are like the Cadillac people but there is envy from Buick and Pontiac people. They are fighting for product people.

I feel for SAAB people because they are the step child that still has no support or product to back them up. They segment they are in has changed so much and they have not kept up.

Saturn people are the best off because they are European and Opel /Vauxhall in nature. They just need recognition and marketing. They are not doing what the others are doing. They are not replacing Oldsmobile either. If they were I would have two in my driveway. GM needs to build on that aspect and market Saturn. A commercial was just on tv. That Aura commercial does not sell that car. They won an award so????

If you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at GM for bad management, poor decisions, tarnishing all the legendary name plates, misjudging the market and telling you what they "think you need" instead of giving you what you want. Be mad at them for getting the product right and then killing it( Allante, Fiero, Bonneville GXP)

Ford and Chrysler have not figured it out either. Chrysler almost did, but they stumbled after 300 and Charger. Ford just never updated what they have and have no direction.

Money is too tight to mention at GM...

Toyota is successful like Honda because they are cashing in on Detroit's misfortune and lack of common sense. They sold the quality. They are selling the reputation. Let's be honest.. The Honda and Toyota's are not stylish. They do the job well like Detroit cars used to do. GM lost sight of that.

Let's go back to a time when GM was successful the early 1980's:

They have a small car platform( J car)

A mid sized front drive platform(A Body)

A mid sized rear drive platform ( G Body)

A family full sized rear drive platform ( B body)

Full sized luxury car ( C Body)

A luxury coupe segment or personal luxury( E and K body)

They were not truck heavy.

The the late 1980's and 1990's came: All hell broke loose.

They are still over 20 years later trying to fix this.

Saturn was the monkey wrench in everyone's plan.

They became truck heavy

Almost every car was front wheel drive

The rear drive cars were killed because they GM thought trucks were the way to go instead of redesigning the rear drive cars.

They downsized their cars and cloned them and paid for that mistake.

GM had the market. They had the names. They had the styling. Several bad leaders who walked away with huge packages left damage.

GM became dealership heavy.

Wayne Cherry felt GM North America GM should have nothing to do with the rest of global GM when he was design chief. He made sure of that. GM North America became isolated and arrogant.

Folks.. you cannot undo 20 years of bad mistakes in 6 months to a year. It takes time. Cultures must change. minds must change, perceptions must change, a generation of buyers were lost. You start to change it through your marketing and mission.

Let me link you to GM commercials to make a point:

1989 Grand Prix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pinA0ew_rIE

Listen to that? Pontiac had a song. A commercial that showed what a Pontiac is. You identified with the brand. I admit it, underpowered as it was (2.8 liter V6 ( 130 hp) and fwd) the 89 Grand Prix was a cool looking car, and had a great theme song.

A full line Pontiac ad:

The song. The pictures. The theme. The images. It shows what Pontiac is.

1985 Pontiac 6000 STE:

Look at that. That commercial makes you want to go check that car out. That commercial shows what a Pontiac is.. The touted the awards they won.

Other 1980's Pontiac commercials:

1980's Pontiac Fiero GT commercial:

1987 Pontiacs commercial:

1987 Pontiac commercial( Fiero GT, Firebird Trans Am, Subird Turbo):

1969 Pontiac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLKXJlAZBxI

Even 1969 they got it.. It had a theme and a message. You knew they were widetrack and more.

2004 Pontiac ad:

Says nothing about Pontiac. So?? it has horsepower.... Cars in a garage....

Buick used to get it too.

1988 Buick Regal commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9mptYFDT0M

A theme. A song you remember and associate with the brand. A proud American car. The car moves in the commercial like a Buick. You see the luxury. They even talk about the features. The way things are now, you might as well say the great Chinese Road belongs to Buick.

The 2004 Buick LaCrosse commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWzBejDt2HQ

Chinese LaCrosse commercial:

It makes you want to consider the car by what it shows you and tells you.

Not even the same Buick. The commercial does not convey Buick.

Cadillac got it in the 1987 Cadillac Eldorado ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eU49ltKDXNQ

It tells you how Cadillac was different. It shows you luxury. You forget that car is underpowered at a 130 hp. You see the technology and features.

The 1992 Deville commercial:

and

That commercial sold that Deville. You forgot it was front wheel drive. They touted facts and features and the status they had.

The new DTS ads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1s7F_Jof68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-uhCNzHJVE

And I want to buy this car why?? It told me nothing about the cars.

Thank you for letting me make my point and to let you know I understand and I feel for you all. Just remember having a bunch of rear drive cars does not guarantee sales. It is the mission, marketing and the company behind the product.

I just think many of todays gen don't have a clue anymore and all these execs that make these asinine decisions really just don't know any better. There is still creative talanted minds out in the world but they are fewer and farther apart.

Edited May 1, 2007 by ponchoman49

[Gigantor]

Here is a question that I have been pondering for a bit....If the Accord can weigh around 3200 pounds, get good crash rating and because of that weight get improved fuel economy, why does the Epsilon I platform have to weigh about 3600 pounds? How much will the Ep II platform weigh? A power train can only be so efficient, it just seems that GMs platforms are really on the heavy side. Am I nut?

[boblutzfan]

Makes me wonder...are they still going to be building their old W &G FWD models with 4-spd autos through 2010-2011?

What they should do is a major MCE for an early 2009 on the Impala, Lucerne and DTS giving all three the six speed and continued iomprovements in the interior on all three. At the same time dump the 3.8L from the Lucerne and give it the 3.6L as the base motor. This would be a good move for GM as all three sell well and have been very well received by the consumer. But what they need to do is dump the Pontiac GP and Buick LaCrosse. Concentrate on what sells well.

[hyperv6]

I just think many of todays gen don't have a clue anymore and all these execs that make these asinine decisions really just don't know any better. There is still creative talanted minds out in the world but they are fewer and farther apart.

I tag helmet laws and seat belts for the blaime.

Before the heard was thinned by the lack of forced safety law.

Safety laws just permit those of the human race to live that would have died by being thrown clear in the past. Lord knows we could use a little more room today.

All the good talent is designing video games as there is more money in it and you can start when your 14 years old then own your own corperation by 21 years.

Edited May 1, 2007 by hyperv6