Asians oversell horsepower

[Northstar]

Asians oversell horsepower
Toyota, Honda inflated claims of engine muscle; new tests force automakers to come clean with buyers.


By Jeff Plungis / Detroit News Washington Bureau

Sealing the deal

When you’re trying to decide between two similar vehicles, what factor is most likely to sway your opinion?

WASHINGTON -- After years of touting ever higher horsepower numbers to win new customers, Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and possibly other automakers are now backtracking on some of those claims.

Strict new tests developed by the industry's top engineering group are prompting the carmakers to roll back horsepower estimates on several key vehicles, including the Toyota Camry, America's best-selling car, and Honda's luxurious Acura RL.

For the 2006 model year, Toyota says its Camry equipped with a 3-liter V-6 engine generates 190 horsepower. In 2005, Toyota said the same car with the same engine had 210 horsepower.

The revised ratings comply with new Society of Automotive Engineers standards designed to eliminate subjective interpretation in establishing horsepower claims.

While Toyota and Honda are retesting their entire vehicle lineups, other automakers generally are retesting only cars and trucks with updated powertrains.

Over time, most automakers are expected to comply with the new guidelines, and horsepower ratings for other vehicles could be revised.

Detroit's automakers say they have been conservative in calculating horsepower and don't expect to have to reduce horsepower ratings on many vehicles. In fact, after retesting, the Big Three have revised horsepower ratings upward on several vehicles.

The changes are likely to raise questions among customers.

"Horsepower is a big draw," said Jim Sanfilippo, an automotive marketing expert at AMCI Inc.

"This is at best difficult to explain," he added.

"Toyota and the other companies better have a good answer when customers ask questions about what happened."

The Camry has been a best-seller for years and a linchpin in Toyota's strategy to increase sales in North America.

Honda is reducing horsepower ratings across its Acura brand. The flagship RL sedan will lose 10 horsepower, to 290 from 300. The popular MDX SUV will fall from a rating of 265 to 253. Less powerful models such as the Honda Civic will see smaller reductions.

"From what we've seen so far, this is going to affect the Japanese and the Europeans a lot more than the domestic manufacturers," said Mark Brueggemann, senior market analyst for Kelley Blue Book.

Brueggemann said engines have not changed, so car shoppers won't notice any drop-off in performance during test drives. But consumers look at horsepower when they're deciding which models to test drive and buy.

For example, the 190-horsepower Camry will compete against a new Hyundai Sonata that advertises 235 horses under the hood. "This could have a possible effect of eliminating a car from consideration," he said.

The changes are already having an impact among die-hards who prowl Internet chat rooms like AutoWeek's Combustion Chamber, Edmunds Town Hall and GM Insidenews. In a recent posting on AutoWeek's site under the heading, "Acura hurt by new SAE hp standard -- numbers were inflated," one chatter said: "Bottom line is if you sell me a car with the promise of say 300 hp, I want my 300 hp!"

Toyota had to advertise based on the new SAE testing procedures because of a California state law, said company spokesman Bill Kwong. The company then decided to use one set of ratings for all of its U.S. ads.

"We hope it won't be confusing," Kwong said. "If you drive a 2006 or 2005, it drives the same. It's the same car. Customers are not getting anything less or anything more."

Honda spokesman Mike Spencer predicted it would take a few years for customers to understand the changes, but eventually all manufacturers will be using the new SAE tests.

"We've been using SAE procedures all along, it's just that SAE changed their procedures," he said.

The news is better for General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. Some models such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Fusion sedan are faring better under the new testing procedures, which could give them a much-needed edge in the marketplace.

The Cadillac XLR roadster with a Northstar engine saw its horsepower rating go from 440 to 469.

"We have confidence that our customers will get the power they pay for," said GM spokesman Thomas Read. "It's going to give the consumer a better rating for their engine."

As the new testing procedure is phased in, it may be tricky for consumers. For example, the Ford Five Hundred sedan is rated at 203 horsepower for 2006, the same as the 2005 model. But the 2006 rating does not reflect the new SAE testing procedure, because Ford is not going to the expense of retesting its existing engines, said company spokesman Nick Twork.

The company will use the new SAE test only when it overhauls a powertrain, as it did for next year's Explorer, Twork said.

But Twork said Ford does not expect significant drop-offs in horsepower as the new test is phased in. When Ford unveiled its midsize Fusion sedan in January, it projected 210 horsepower. When it was tested under SAE's official protocol, the engine received a 221 horsepower rating, Twork said.

"We typically like to underpromise and overdeliver," Twork said. "We feel we've been pretty conservative, and we don't anticipate any major changes."

DaimlerChrysler is using the new SAE procedures on any model with changes in its powertrain, said spokesman Cole Quinnell. He said the company expects new ratings to be within 3 percent of the old ratings, with some going up and some going down. DaimlerChrysler is making a special effort to test high-performance models, like the Dodge Viper V-10. The Viper now tests at 510 horsepower, up from 500 in 2005.

"We've wholeheartedly embraced the new procedures," Quinnell said. "We hope it shows our credibility."

When an engine doesn't measure up to its advertised performance, it can hurt. Mazda Motor Corp. reintroduced the rotary engine with its RX-8 sports coupe a few years ago. It had a high horsepower rating. But when drivers got inside, they discovered weak low-end torque, meaning that the rocket-like acceleration they'd expected was missing.

Ford pulled its high-performance Mustang Cobra from the market a few years ago when enthusiasts complained the engine did not live up to its billing. Ford tweaked the engine before selling it again.

SAE says it tightened its horsepower rules when engineers noticed some elements in the old test were prone to interpretation.

"We tried to tighten language that was open to interpretation," said Dave Lancaster, a technical fellow at General Motors Corp. who chaired the SAE committee that wrote the new requirements.

Under the old testing procedures, there were small factors that required a judgment call: how much oil was in the crankcase, how the engine controls were calibrated and whether a vehicle was tested with premium fuel. In some cases, the little adjustments added up to a big change in horsepower ratings. The new SAE procedures allow less wiggle room.

John Di Pietro, road test editor at Edmunds.com, said the drop in horsepower ratings for '06 models they have tested are not especially dramatic. For vehicles such as a midsize family sedan, the reputation of the manufacturer will likely be more important, Di Pietro said.

"It will be up to the salesman to ensure they understand the engine hasn't actually lost any power," he said.

[LosAngeles]

What will be the story with the now 298-horse G35s?

[Alpha]

The Cadillac XLR roadster with a Northstar engine saw its horsepower rating go from 440 to 469.

[post="20"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Wouldn't that be the XLR-V? Wow... :D

[Matt276]

V-6 Camry 190 hp, weak!

[BrewSwillis]

Finally the Asians get caught, on a large scale, for one of their many deceptive practices. I hope this hurts their sales......not just to be mean, but punishment for trying to inflate HP ratings in order to market their vehicles better against domestic vehicles. I hear the 280 HP Avalon is now down to 268 HP.

[Northstar]

It would appear to me that Honda has overstated their outputs in Acuras. The RL is down to 290 from 300; the TL is down to 254 from 270, and the MDX is down as well (don't remember how much). It will be interesting to see if the LS2 goes up at all and other American engines.

[rez7777]

Any large scale news coverage of this scandal? What should their penalty be. Lawsuits?

[Snate]

I find it funny that the 3.3L V6 (the most powerful Camry engine at the moment) is now outpowered by the base engine in the Impala...and gets worse mileage to boot.

[evok]

Please guys don't get me started on this one! Don't use the terms, fraud, mis-lead, lied etc. It is just not true. The test changed so there is less room for interpretation. That is it. Credit Honda and Toyota for recertifing their engines to the new spec not the results of it.

[Variance]

Besides, some Asians have gone up while some domestics have gone down.

[I hope GMRULES again]

I find it funny that the 3.3L V6 (the most powerful Camry engine at the moment) is now outpowered by the base engine in the Impala...and gets worse mileage to boot. Do you have the new HP numbers for the 3.3? It used to make 230 in the Camry/Sienna.

[Variance]

I find it funny that the 3.3L V6 (the most powerful Camry engine at the moment) is now outpowered by the base engine in the Impala...and gets worse mileage to boot.

Do you have the new HP numbers for the 3.3? It used to make 230 in the Camry/Sienna.

[post="376"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

In the Camry, it's 210hp now. I don't know if the Sienna's the same.

[BrewSwillis]

Please guys don't get me started on this one!

Don't use the terms, fraud, mis-lead, lied etc.  It is just not true.

The test changed so there is less room for interpretation.  That is it.

Credit Honda and Toyota for recertifing their engines to the new spec not the results of it.

[post="354"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Detroit's automakers say they have been conservative in calculating horsepower and don't expect to have to reduce horsepower ratings on many vehicles. In fact, after retesting, the Big Three have revised horsepower ratings upward on several vehicles.

So why has Detroit been conservative while the Asians have be "interpreting" the SAE procedures to help them get more HP?

All of the auto manufacturers knew about the procedures, and what they were doing. Detroit chose to do the right thing, and the Asians chose to take advantage. Now they got caught......and it probably won't matter, because you and the auto rag journalists will come to their aid and claim that they've done nothing wrong.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Wouldnt that be kind of like rating ground clearance to the floor instead of to the frame? Was that open to interpretation too? The way I see it is, if its not rated as exactly like its sold with the specified fuel listed in the manual, its cheating, especially if it was done purposely just to inflate the numbers. GM would be taking a beating right now if the Malibu only had 190 instead of 200, or if any other ratings from GM were 5-10 short.

[Variance]

Well, most of Infiniti's power ratings are unchanged or raised:

M35/45:

http://nissannews.com/infiniti/2006vehicle...i_m/specs.shtml

FX35/45:

http://nissannews.com/infiniti/2006vehicles/fx/specs.shtml

Q45:

http://nissannews.com/infiniti/2006vehicles/q45/specs.shtml

QX56:

http://nissannews.com/infiniti/2006vehicles/qx56/specs.shtml

The G35 hasn't been tested yet. Edited August 19, 2005 by VarianceJ30

[evok]

So why has Detroit been conservative while the Asians have be "interpreting" the SAE procedures to help them get more HP?

All of the auto manufacturers knew about the procedures, and what they were doing.  Detroit chose to do the right thing, and the Asians chose to take advantage.  Now they got caught......and it probably won't matter, because you and the auto rag journalists will come to their aid and claim that they've done nothing wrong.

[post="400"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Like I have said do not get me started on this topic. But, you have.

First I will preface that I do not know the specifics of the changes to the SAE spec. or what has caused the variability. And truthfully I do not really care because it does not matter. Here is my assessment of your comments.

You have used the phrases that are malicious and ignorant.

"All of the auto manufacturers knew about the procedures."

No, that was why the SAE spec. was redone. The global industry knew there was variability and chose to evaluate the spec.

"Detroit chose to do the right thing, and the Asians chose to take advantage. "

No you are incorrect again. Why the variability I do not know but the fact that the manufacturers have chosen to re-certify their engine show that they acknowledge there was an issue. Ford and Chrysler both stated that all of their engines will not be certified to the new SAE standard.

"Now they got caught."
You are ignorant and naive for stating that. Who got caught? Toyota and Honda released their figures at their choice and part of the new spec. negotiations.

"and it probably won't matter, because you and the auto rag journalists will come to their aid and claim that they've done nothing wrong."

Actually this is the statement that irritated me most. Read Detroit News, they started this ignorant debate against the Asian brands. As for me, I am stating the realities.

The bottom line is the performance and that has not changes.

[pow]

I hear the 280 HP Avalon is now down to 268 HP.

[post="312"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No, Toyota's new line of V6's are measured with the new standards. This includes the Avalon, IS250/350, etc.

[toyoguy]

avalon is now 268, IS is rated properly

[BrewSwillis]

Like I have said do not get me started on this topic.  But, you have.

First I will preface that I do not know the specifics of the changes to the SAE spec. or what has caused the variability.  And truthfully I do not really care because it does not matter.  Here is my assessment of your comments.

[post="438"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

From the SAE site:

SAE Engine Rating Standard Prevents Numbers Fudging (an article on how GM will use SAE J1349 Certified Power, AEI May 2005, Vol 113 No.5, p 59 )
General Motors has become the first manufacturer to certify an engine's power and torque ratings using a newly adopted SAE standard (J2723), James Queen, GM Vice President, Global Engineering, announced during his keynote address at the SAE World Congress and Exhibition in April 2005. The world's largest automaker plans to certify all of its engines to the voluntary standard, and is encouraging its competitors to do the same. The LS7 engine for the 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 was certified under the new standard this month. The 7.0-L V8 unit produces 505 hp (377 kW) at 6300 rpm and 470 lboft (637 Nom) at 4800 rpm. "The new voluntary SAE power and torque certification procedure ensures fair, accurate ratings for horsepower and torque as it uses third-party certification," said Queen. "SAE technical standards level the playing field, and this certification procedure is just the latest example of the value SAE has offered over the past century." To tout power and torque ratings as "SAE-certified," engine manufacturers must have an SAE qualified witness watch over the entire testing procedure to ensure that it is conducted in conformity to SAE standard J1349. Third-party witnessing is the main provision of J2723. An existing SAE standard, J1349, spells out how the actual testing is to be done. J1349 was updated last year to eliminate some ambiguities that allowed engine makers to cite power and torque ratings higher than the engine's actual capabilities. Engine makers are free to cite power and torque figures derived from testing conducted outside the scope of the SAE standards, but they may not claim the figures are SAE-certifed. "We feel that both the consumer and industry are well served by having accurate, consistent ratings from all manufacturers," said David Lancaster, a Technical Fellow in GM Powertrain and Chairman of the SAE Engine Power Test Code Committee that updated J1349 and wrote J2723. Data from a wide array of parameters (e.g., air:fuel ratio) will be collected during testing conducted to the SAE standards. SAE will create a database and offer it to industry in different packages and at different price points.

This states that "some manufacturers" were stating non-SAE certified horsepower ratings. I wonder which manufacturers those were?

Linky: http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm

[Alpha]

Thank you Brew, I was looking for just that info myself. From what I understand from reading several articles on this, several companies were not abiding by the idea behind the SAE certifications... Some companies were using differeing levels of oil in their engines, different setups for exhaust, differing levels of octane in their fuel, providing better air intake (I heard one story of an "un-named" company using a small blower fan outside the building to push air through a pipe into the engine's intake for a performance car), things like that. These small differences combined allowed for what seems to be up to 20 HP being different on their specs.

[Newbiewar]

V-6 Camry 190 hp, weak!

[post="243"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

my 1998, was rated at 194, but my brothers 108 hp corolla was just as fast...

and yes, to a bit above, the XLR-V is not a northstar (as I am aware) yet a LS6 Superchared?

[Snate]

my 1998, was rated at 194, but my brothers 108 hp corolla was just as fast...

and yes, to a bit above, the XLR-V is not a northstar (as I am aware) yet a LS6 Superchared?

[post="507"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Nope, it is a NS. A supercharged 4.4L

[sciguy_0504]

This whole situation really sucks for the Asians. That being said, it's not like they inflated their engine's HP on purpose. The "new" test shares some of the blame and Toyota has been testing their engines with premium fuel in order to get the higher HP. Hopefully they've learned their lesson. And 190HP is rediculous. The new Camry couldn't come fast enough, no pun intended. Edited August 19, 2005 by sciguy_0504

[mustang84]

Ford's new Fusion has been SAE tested and still has 221 hp. I haven't heard of any other Ford vehicles yet. I've been following this quite a bit, and it appears that Toyota and Honda have had to make the most (and largest) changes. Even if they did test under ideal conditions that would never happen in a real life situation, it doesn't change the fact that their horsepower numbers have dropped by as much as 20 hp. Nissan has pretty much stayed solid, with a couple numbers even going up slightly. I read a while back that GM was certifying all its 2006 cars, but I haven't read anything since. So while it may not have been some "plot" by Toyota and Honda, but it still looks bad on paper no matter how you put it.

[BrewSwillis]

I don't know what some of you people are not understanding. The old SAE regulations left some "loopholes" where manufacturers could "cheat" to get better HP figures. Things like piping cold air from outside directly into the air box, playing with oil levels, different octane fuels, etc........all of which were purposely done with the intent of raising claimed HP figures. How could any manufacturer consider these acceptable practices? The answer is, some of them thought it was just fine, and others restrained.......and guess who thought it was just fine???..........TOYOTA!!!!......and HONDA!!!!! ;)

[Sixty8panther]

"Detroit chose to do the right thing, and the Asians chose to take advantage. "

[post="438"][/post]

And that's all I have to say about that!

[evok]

And that's all I have to say about that!

[post="611"][/post]

You just have no idea what you are talking about on this subject.

[BrewSwillis]

You just have no idea what you are talking about on this subject.

[post="654"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That's pretty bold coming from someone who already claimed that they didn't what they were talking about:

First I will preface that I do not know the specifics of the changes to the SAE spec. or what has caused the variability. And truthfully I do not really care because it does not matter. Here is my assessment of your comments.

[evok]

You just have no idea what you are talking about on this subject.

[post="654"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Let me clairify what I did not know. I am not certain about the specific ambiquities that were rectified in the SAE J1349 specification. I have not read the actual test proceedure but I am familiar with the issue.

But I am well versed in how standards are developed. My comments on this subject are to be fair and point the realities of what this new certification means. This certification in the end just means that all engines certified to SAE J1349 will be conducted in a more consistent manner. Less room for interpretation.

SAE does not work in a vacuum. Commitee members represent the manufacturers. Therefore Toyota, Honda, GM, DCX, etc all agreed that there was inconsistency and agreed on a new test procedure. Most likely and I am speculating, the Commitee agreed on a proposal by GM based up the results of the certified engines.

The article that drove this thread was biased. Posting opinions such as fraud, deceit, etc are not true and show the same ill informed biase as in the article. If that were the case than this standard would not have been rectified. Any company that has signed onto the standard is showing themselves to be honest and upfront. Edited August 19, 2005 by evok

[Sixty8panther]

Evok: Yes, you're right I'm an ignorant bastard. Dumb as a stump. Still I'll rest easy next time I buy a GM car and it actaully has 103% of the claimed HP. You can go ahead and buty yourself a car that has 90% of the claimed HP and chalk it up to "dyno misfunction".

[evok]

Evok:

Yes, you're right I'm an ignorant bastard. Dumb as a stump. Still I'll rest easy next time I buy a GM car and it actaully has 103% of the claimed HP. You can go ahead and buty yourself a car that has 90% of the claimed HP and chalk it up to "dyno misfunction".

[post="756"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You just made no sense. If two engines are certified to SAE J1349, than you would be comparing apples to apples and they would both have 100% of the claimed HP according to that spec. That was the whole purpose of the new certification so that all manufacturers are claiming 100%.

There is more to this than just the test. I believe without knowing the specifics there are state laws and even possibly federal commerce laws with regard to what the claimed HP rating are and variability. I know at one time the EU had requirements on variability as well. Edited August 19, 2005 by evok

[Northstar]

I think the new standard tests the engines with a power steering pump attached (which robs power) and also they aren't allowed to breath as freely as in the past (to simulate how much air they get under the hood). I'm not so sure that the Japanese so much overstated HP as much as the American companies underrated it. I'm guessing that if you took off the power steering pump and let the engine breath more freely that the Asians would make similar power to what they had claimed and the Americans would make somewhat more power than claimed.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Before the boards went down, didn't thegriffon start a thread about this? I believe he said some companies knew exactly what they were doing, and claiming the ratings were accurate, but they werent even converting to SAE standards, but they were going by the EU standard for HP or something like that. Where is thegriffon, I'm sure he could clear all of this up for us.

[evok]

Jaguar Plays Fast and Loose With Horsepower by Eric Mayne and Bill Visnic WardsAuto.com, Apr 5 2002 DETROIT – Horsepower sells sports cars and Jaguar North America appears to be playing fast and loose with how it markets its numbers. For its all-new S-Type R, Jaguar is reporting the 400-hp figure derived from a European rating system not commonly quoted by other auto makers for U.S.-market vehicles. If the company used the same Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) net horsepower rating used by almost all auto makers selling vehicles in the U.S., the number would be a far-less sexy 388 hp. 2003 Jaguar S-Type R The lower figure doesn’t pack the same wallop against main competitor BMW AG, and likely wouldn’t have the same marketing power – at least one automotive enthusiast magazine’s cover proclaims that S-Type R is packing 400 hp. Why not reveal the 400-hp rating comes from a Deutsche Institut fur Normung (DIN) yardstick, instead of the more widely used SAE test? "We’re not obliged to," a Jaguar spokesman tells Ward's, adding the practice will continue. "In Europe there are EEC (European Economic Commission) directives which cover the test method for engine power and these tests are witnessed by a government agency. In the U.K., this is the Vehicle Certification Authority," the spokesman says. "The SAE number used in the U.S.A. is to a different test procedure and correction standards and is only run by the manufacturers and not witnessed by any agency." But the matter of who witnesses the test hardly is the issue. The DIN test derives a peak horsepower rating from a set of specific power correction standards that takes into account ambient temperature and pressure – both of which directly affect how much power an engine can produce. The DIN power correction standards allow an engine to generate a peak horsepower figure that is higher than the same engine would produce under SAE test procedures. Because the SAE procedure is the one commonly accepted in the U.S., almost all manufacturers selling vehicles in the U.S. report their horsepower rating based on the SAE test. In preparation for $63,000 S-Type R’s debut next month, Jaguar has distributed vehicle specifications to the North American media. This has contributed to widespread reporting of the 400-hp rating without any proviso. All material seen by Ward's cites a 400-hp output – with no mention of DIN, though some press kits that make the distinction apparently exist. Ward's also has learned that all of Jaguar models’ quoted horsepower figures in the U.S. are based on the DIN test. Similarly, some S-Type R consumer brochures in North America fail to make mention of the less-familiar German scale when bragging about the 400-hp rating, Ward's is told. This gives S-Type R, with its supercharged 4.2L DOHC V-8, a significant advantage. But Jaguar’s prime competitors – BMW of North America and Mercedes-Benz USA – will not compromise. "You’ll never see us, in this market, claim that the M5 is 400," a BMW spokesman says. "Obviously, it would work well for us to be able to say that (M5 is) 400 hp in this market rather than the somewhat more complicated and perhaps less attractive-looking number of 394. "The same is true for our X5 4.6is," BMW adds. "I believe that was 347 DIN, which would have put it just a shade higher than Cadillac Escalade, which I think is 345." Using this logic, BMW could have claimed Escalade’s title of most powerful SUV on the market. Similarly, Mercedes-Benz champions high-performance models such as the E-Class E55 AMG in line with its SAE net rating of 349. And that won’t change, a spokesman says, because the SAE standard is coin of the realm. Will Jaguar’s sin of omission affect the way S-Type R competes in the market? Probably not, says Mike Wall, auto analyst with IRN Inc. Ultimately, sales will be made from behind the wheel. "Zero-to-60 is either 5 seconds or 6 seconds or it’s not," he says. It’s actually 5.3, Jaguar claims. Wall expresses surprise at Jaguar’s approach, given the black eye its corporate parent – Ford Motor Co. – received some years ago when its Mustang Cobra failed to live up to horsepower claims. "I would think you wouldn’t want to do that kind of, I don’t know if you want to call it shenanigans, but it’s not exactly straightforward." A Ford spokesman says it has a broad-strokes policy governing engine testing, but because the auto maker is a global operation, variations occur from brand to brand. [email protected]

[evok]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/autoweekend...13912-8358r.htm

'Horsepower' has proved to be elusive to measure


By Les Jackson
SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES



The subject of horsepower has recently appeared in a number of publications. Some stories state that many manufacturers are inflating — or otherwise misrepresenting — the horsepower ratings of their cars, a confusing issue that deserves a major explanation.
To do that, we need to define "horsepower." Unfortunately, how it is defined depends upon who is doing the defining.
James Watt is to blame here. Watt, you might remember, was the father of the steam engine and the originator of the term "horsepower." He created the term in his first attempts to persuade mine owners to substitute his steam engines for horses in hoisting coal. A horse, it was known, could work at the rate of 22,000 foot-pounds per minute but Watt arbitrarily made the unit of horsepower half again as much as the average horse — shrewd marketer that he was. Unfortunately, no one ever corrected his standard.
In the United States, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has, since 1903, defined 1 horsepower as the ability to lift 33,000 pounds 1 foot in 1 minute, or 550 pounds 1 foot in 1 second.

[Drew Dowdell]

"Detroit chose to do the right thing, and the Asians chose to take advantage. "

No you are incorrect again.  Why the variability I do not know but the fact that the manufacturers have chosen to re-certify their engine show that they acknowledge there was an issue.  Ford and Chrysler both stated that all of their engines will not be certified to the new SAE standard.

Detroit chose to err on the low side, the Asians decided to err on the high side.

The bottom line is the performance and that has not changes.

[post="438"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

but there is truth in advertising problems. Didn't Ford get raked over the coals for the Cobra and RX-8 incidents?

[The O.C.]

Please guys don't get me started on this one!

Don't use the terms, fraud, mis-lead, lied etc.  It is just not true.

The test changed so there is less room for interpretation.  That is it.

Credit Honda and Toyota for recertifing their engines to the new spec not the results of it.

[post="354"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree.....it's useless to try to use this topic as a bandwagon to criticize the imports....

The Avalon still went 0-60 in 6.0secs FLAT in the recent C&D comparison test.....and a 190hp Camry is still going to be the NVH standout it always was...

Point being....the engines haven't changed....the ratings did.

[mustang84]

I pasted what thegriffon said into another board...here it is:

All Honda and many Toyota engines were never rated to the SAE standard in the first place, they just said they were. Whether sales and communications staff were aware of it or not, they were just giving Japanese data calcuated using the DIN standard and often metric rather than US hp. The "stricter" SAE standard just brought this discrepancy to light. No official figures have yet been released. No American engines will be affected, but Saab, Jaguar, Volvo and Chrysler's European sourced diesels may be, but not to the same extent as the European EEC standard is much closer to the SAE and turbos largely eliminate the remaining differences. The main problem they have is inadvertant use of metric rather than US hp. Marketing and communications staff have been more careless and ignorant than anything, unaware that Swedish and German words for horsepower refer to metric hp, not the US/Imperial standard. Media are often caught out as well, rushing to publication before manufacturers release US data in hp (SAE or not). Even though GM and Chrysler test using the SAE standard, published figures (even in dealer guides) regularly show obvious errors such as kW and hp ratings that don't match.

[Drew Dowdell]

The constant ragging on the Chevy Impala because of it's base V6... which now is rated higher and gets better mileage then the Camry V6. The number of pushrod v. OHC debates that I go through is nausiating. One of the arguments the OHC people tout is how OHC is more powerful and more fuel efficient then OHV. At 3.3 litres for the Camry, 3.4 litres for the Impala, and 3.5 litres for the G6 we now see that there really isn't much advantage to OHC.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It may not effect us, who know the 0-60 times of the cars. But what about the general population? They dont know 0-60, all they know is HP. And they could be out testing the V6 230hp camry, and not thinking its that fast, so they wouldnt even test the 200hp Malibu because it has 30 less HP, so it must be alot slower.

[CaddyXLR-V]

It may not effect us, who know the 0-60 times of the cars. But what about the general population? They dont know 0-60, all they know is HP. And they could be out testing the V6 230hp camry, and not thinking its that fast, so they wouldnt even test the 200hp Malibu because it has 30 less HP, so it must be alot slower.

[Flybrian]

Point being....the engines haven't changed....the ratings did.

How many times have you heard "More powerful than _____" in an ad? That 'power' is figured from horsepower. If Toyota et al purposely fail to accurately convert their ratings as TheGriffon pointed out, then they're guilty of distorting the facts.

[evok]

How many times have you heard "More powerful than _____" in an ad? That 'power' is figured from horsepower. If Toyota et al purposely fail to accurately convert their ratings as TheGriffon pointed out, then they're guilty of distorting the facts.

[post="1034"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Isn't this what the dicsussion is about, that Honda and Toyota in good faith certified their engines to the new SAE spec? That is not distorting the facts but the industry through SAE developing a common standard. That should be applauded.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I think they just knew they couldnt get away with it anymore, and chose to voluntarily certify their engines just to save face. How is it that only to 2 so called best car makers be the only ones with such drastic rating drops? Nissan showed it wasn't just because they were Asian companies, because Nissan didnt have any drops like Toyota and Honda. It may not have been cheating, because the rules were open to interpretation. But that doesnt make it right either.

[balthazar]

Isn't this what the dicsussion is about, that Honda and Toyota in good faith certified their engines to the new SAE spec?  That is not distorting the facts but the industry through SAE developing a common standard.  That should be applauded.

No; for many posters here that is NOT the discussion. For them (and I) the issue is that the new certified test revealed a number of very notable decreases for the exact same engines for some manufacturers. The fact that most were right on or nearly so, but some were notably overrated bears discussion in itself: why and was it intentionally misleading for marketing purposes.
Perhaps the truth will never come out.

[Flybrian]

Isn't this what the dicsussion is about, that Honda and Toyota in good faith certified their engines to the new SAE spec?  That is not distorting the facts but the industry through SAE developing a common standard.  That should be applauded.

[post="1114"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I believe its been shown that many foreign automakers didn't accurately convert their measurements to American standards, much like metric vs. Imperial.

Why should they be applauded for finally being accurate?

[balthazar]

So they can engineer a modern automobile but not do a simple conversion formula?? I don't buy that one for a split second.

[Northstar]

I saw a TL commercial today saying it had this and that and 270HP. Apparantly Acura is still advertising the old numbers even though it's been rated lower than what the are advertising.

[toyoguy]

I saw a TL commercial today saying it had this and that and 270HP. Apparantly Acura is still advertising the old numbers even though it's been rated lower than what the are advertising.

[post="1419"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The 06 model hasn't gone on sale yet.

[Enzora]

It may not effect us, who know the 0-60 times of the cars. But what about the general population? They dont know 0-60, all they know is HP. And they could be out testing the V6 230hp camry, and not thinking its that fast, so they wouldnt even test the 200hp Malibu because it has 30 less HP, so it must be  alot slower.

[post="872"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Excellent point. Horsepower's always been the glamor number, and that's why the Japanese did what was within their means to make it look good. Detroit's underpromise/overdeliver idea seems to be set firmly in the 1960s, where some of the horsepower ratings seemed to be pulled out of a hat. Underrated horsepower = lower insurance premiums and a sleeper quality that car buyers will love, right? No, it's just Detroit's putting too much faith in the average consumer. But hey, a little outdated thinking might actually help them for once this time.

This is the car market, for Christ's sake. NO ONE is trying to be noble here.