Are the W bodies gone yet?

[Camino LS6]

The S/C 3800 available in oh so many of these W-bodies was upgradeable with something as simple as a S/C pulley swap. There are plenty of performance mods for the 3800 and even some for the 3.4 DOHC. Many of the W-bodies <all?> have fully independent suspensions and the inherently better ride/handling characteristics that accompany such. We poo-poo on 4-speeds today, but a lot of the lower G-bodies were 3-speeds!

Again, while I do have my favorites on both platform, waxing poetic about the "good ol' days" of either of these is using selective memory. They were competitive for their day but are completely out classed today.... by GM's own platforms.

I understand where you are coming from here, and in no way want GM to build clones of the old G bodys today. But, imagine where those cars could have gone with even a portion of the development money spent on the "W"s. I put it to you that they would have been wonderful cars and GM wouldn't be so far behind in RWD these days. I ceased to consider GM mid size cars the day the last G body was built, and never had a reason to look again until the GTO came to market. The move of these cars to FWD was terrible strategic move that has yet to be fully corrected. Had GM continued with the RWD cars and built FWD as well, things could have been so much better. The wholesale abandonment of RWD hurt them then and still hurts them today.

[Camino LS6]

I'm going to take this a step farther.

In the '80s, the G bodies weren't competitive the way that they should have been.

Imagine this alternate reality:

In the 80s, the Gs get EFI and ABS - they didn't.

In the 90's the new Gs get a new platform with IRS, the LT1, air bags, and traction control

In the 00s they get a VZ -style platform and all that it brought to the party

-Enter Zeta.

Instead, we got the proliferation of SUVs, the largely ignored f-body left to wither on the vine, the B-body put out to pasture, and a bunch of underwhelming front drivers that were behind in the market every year. While I love the F-bodies and have a soft spot for the Bs, I think that GM backed the wrong RWD horses and put their faith in lackluster FWD cars that trashed the brand equity of revered nameplates. The result being heavy loss of share as well as soul.

We could have been watching the evolution of cars like the GTO and G8 right here through out the last 2 decades. Instead we get crumbs from Holden because we forgot how to do it ourselves.

Had this been done, the whole automotive landscape would have been very different.

[trinacriabob]

The most recent W-Body I've sampled is the current Grand Prix, specifically a base '05 rental.

The car was solid and rattle-free, but it just reeked of cheepness. Interior quality was shoddy, the engine sounded terrible under acceleration, it just felt like the cheesy rental car it was. I find it impossible to see the appeal behind such a dated, outclassed package. Really, it was like driving something out of the mid 90s.

I will say that, for the money, this is one heck of a package. You can buy one out the door for about $ 20,000 before taxes and the like.

I do have a problem with some aspects of the packaging, having rented about 10 of them. The dashboard has some hard plastic at the sides that gives a "rat-tat" sound when you tap on it. It could have been clad in vinyl, at the very least, as they do with other cars. The general level of articulation on seat surfaces and door panels is kind of weak.

However, the engine has an exhaust note. I don't think it sounds bad. The exhaust note in the first year of this version (2004) sounded absolutely horrible; the current one doesn't. The powertrain on the base model is proven and rock solid. Also, that same powertrain is hushed in a LaCrosse.

At the end of the model run, this car has been as "perfected" as it can be; however, it could have been a little better. Still, I would be ok with owning one.

[PrimeGTP]

The W-Body to me will always represent the moment GM decided to take their nicest powerful cars (Impala, Monte Carlo, Grand Prix) and totally wussify them. Between that and the vast superiority of Zeta, good riddance W's!

[Oracle of Delphi]

You know, Ive changed my mind. I can't wait for the W bodies to go, as a matter of fact I look forward to it. What will be the excuse when Zeta is here and market share still falls! I look forward for Jan 08, and all the excuses that are sure to follow!

[CSpec]

The Ws are an anachronism. Huge with small interiors, they are totally outdated and outclassed.

[Camino LS6]

You know, Ive changed my mind. I can't wait for the W bodies to go, as a matter of fact I look forward to it. What will be the excuse when Zeta is here and market share still falls! I look forward for Jan 08, and all the excuses that are sure to follow!

I hope you like sauteed crow... :AH-HA_wink:

So what qualifies as Zeta being "here"?

The Camaro debut?

The start of G8 imports?

The Impala debut?

Other Zeta variants?

Just when will it really qualify as being "here"?

[Drew Dowdell]

Unfortunately, I don't think your scenario would have played out the way you'd like it to.

What cars were kicking ass and taking names in the late 80s?

Taurus

Accord

Camry

Maxima

IMHO, what you just described would have looked like this.

1987, GM debuts the new G-bodies. Ford debuts the new Taurus, Chrysler buys AMC/Introduces a K-car.

1988, auto rags rave about the new taurus, mention Camry as a worthy competitor, wonder allowed why GM hasn't jumped on the bandwagon with FWD for family cars.

1989, G-body sales reach their lowest point in 5 years. Ford recarpets every home in Dearborn with carpet made with gold spun from hay. Chrysler introduces another K-car.

1990, GM sales continue to slide, N-bodies are the only bright spot. Ford issues press release. "Neener neener neener". Toyota issues press release "We're coming to get you Ford", Chrysler introduces another K-car.

1991, GM updates the E-bodies, G-bodies finish in last place in all auto rags for the 4th straight year. Auto rags wonder allowed who is steering the GM ship stating "Even Chrysler gets it.", Chrysler introduces another K-car. Toyota's assimilation of the U.S. begins with redesigned Camry. Honda issues press release, "Me too!"

1992, First Iraq war, oil skyrockets. Last year for the E-bodies, G-bodies get a mild MCE. Taurus gets mild MCE and pisses all over G-bodies. Ford wisely discontinues 4-cylinder Taurus. Camry 4-cylinder sales climb. Chrysler introduces a K-car.

1993, GM is now borderline bankrupt. Gets government guaranteed loan, Introduces W-body. Taurus sales plateau. Toyota installs mind control device in every american, free of charge. Chrysler introduces the LH cars/apologizes for K-car.

1994, GM introduces H-bodies. LeSabre/Eighty Eight/Bonneville sales take off. Buyers confused by the similar sized G-body and W-body choose the W-body because Car and Driver told them to. Taurus sales fall, ford blames Toyota's mind control device. Chrysler introduces a LH car.

1995, G-body discontinued after W-body outsells it 5-1. Eighty Eight named best value large family car. Last good year for Ford. Chrysler introduces an LH car.

1996 B-bodies dicontinued, H-bodies set sales records, Tahoe now best selling Chevy after the Cavalier. Ford redesigns Taurus to look like a fish. Parking lots slowly becoming a sea beige Camries and Accords. Chrysler introduces an LH car.

1997, W-body MCE. Motor trend issues proclamation "Pushrods are teh suxors!", w-body sales plummet. Ford rips the carpeting out of every home in Dearborn. Toyota issues press release "All your base are belong to us". Honda issues press release, "Me too!". Chrysler introduces cloud car.

1998, W-body continues to fail to meet sales goals, Chevy selling every Tahoe and Blazer they can make. Ford lops off it's own head. Chrysler ... oh heck, you know the rest.

1999, Olds dies. GM files for bankruptcy protection. Analyst speculate it was because of GM's late entry into the family sized FWD market. Kirk Kerkorkian takes over Chrysler, introduces MCE LH cars. Ford becomes irrelevant.

2000, Mercedes Benz buys General Motors, proclaims "Merger of equals". Buick, Pontiac and Cadillac immediately canceled.

The End.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I hope you like sauteed crow... :AH-HA_wink:

So what qualifies as Zeta being "here"?

The Camaro debut?

The start of G8 imports?

The Impala debut?

Other Zeta variants?

Just when will it really qualify as being "here"?

As soon as the 1st Zeta hit's the North American land mass and is being sold, either shipped here or built here, that's when it will start for me and also GM. That's when we both will start looking at market share numbers, that's when I expect the excuses to start. It will be fun to watch all the Global back peddling.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

Unfortunately, I don't think your scenario would have played out the way you'd like it to.

What cars were kicking ass and taking names in the late 80s?

Taurus

Accord

Camry

Maxima

IMHO, what you just described would have looked like this.

1987, GM debuts the new G-bodies. Ford debuts the new Taurus, Chrysler buys AMC/Introduces a K-car.

1988, auto rags rave about the new taurus, mention Camry as a worthy competitor, wonder allowed why GM hasn't jumped on the bandwagon with FWD for family cars.

1989, G-body sales reach their lowest point in 5 years. Ford recarpets every home in Dearborn with carpet made with gold spun from hay. Chrysler introduces another K-car.

1990, GM sales continue to slide, N-bodies are the only bright spot. Ford issues press release. "Neener neener neener". Toyota issues press release "We're coming to get you Ford", Chrysler introduces another K-car.

1991, GM updates the E-bodies, G-bodies finish in last place in all auto rags for the 4th straight year. Auto rags wonder allowed who is steering the GM ship stating "Even Chrysler gets it.", Chrysler introduces another K-car. Toyota's assimilation of the U.S. begins with redesigned Camry. Honda issues press release, "Me too!"

1992, First Iraq war, oil skyrockets. Last year for the E-bodies, G-bodies get a mild MCE. Taurus gets mild MCE and pisses all over G-bodies. Ford wisely discontinues 4-cylinder Taurus. Camry 4-cylinder sales climb. Chrysler introduces a K-car.

1993, GM is now borderline bankrupt. Gets government guaranteed loan, Introduces W-body. Taurus sales plateau. Toyota installs mind control device in every american, free of charge. Chrysler introduces the LH cars/apologizes for K-car.

1994, GM introduces H-bodies. LeSabre/Eighty Eight/Bonneville sales take off. Buyers confused by the similar sized G-body and W-body choose the W-body because Car and Driver told them to. Taurus sales fall, ford blames Toyota's mind control device. Chrysler introduces a LH car.

1995, G-body discontinued after W-body outsells it 5-1. Eighty Eight named best value large family car. Last good year for Ford. Chrysler introduces an LH car.

1996 B-bodies dicontinued, H-bodies set sales records, Tahoe now best selling Chevy after the Cavalier. Ford redesigns Taurus to look like a fish. Parking lots slowly becoming a sea beige Camries and Accords. Chrysler introduces an LH car.

1997, W-body MCE. Motor trend issues proclamation "Pushrods are teh suxors!", w-body sales plummet. Ford rips the carpeting out of every home in Dearborn. Toyota issues press release "All your base are belong to us". Honda issues press release, "Me too!". Chrysler introduces cloud car.

1998, W-body continues to fail to meet sales goals, Chevy selling every Tahoe and Blazer they can make. Ford lops off it's own head. Chrysler ... oh heck, you know the rest.

1999, Olds dies. GM files for bankruptcy protection. Analyst speculate it was because of GM's late entry into the family sized FWD market. Kirk Kerkorkian takes over Chrysler, introduces MCE LH cars. Ford becomes irrelevant.

2000, Mercedes Benz buys General Motors, proclaims "Merger of equals". Buick, Pontiac and Cadillac immediately canceled.

The End.

Interesting, if a bit pessimistic. My scenario would not have included ignoring FWD, a balance could have been found instead of the "me too" failure of going so hard at FWD across all lines. I could flesh it out a bit more as well, the B-bodies would likely have been axed much sooner, the SUV craze would have been dampened a bit, and the F-body would have been adjusted to niche level. FWD would have evolved separately and not been overly large initially as was the case. Berreta and Corsica would have gotten a bigger push and more advancement...

[Drew Dowdell]

As soon as the 1st Zeta hit's the North American land mass and is being sold, either shipped here or built here, that's when it will start for me and also GM. That's when we both will start looking at market share numbers, that's when I expect the excuses to start. It will be fun to watch all the back peddling.

I think it's a bit hard to judge the sales of Zeta as a whole on a limited production import vehicle.

[Drew Dowdell]

Interesting, if a bit pessimistic. My scenario would not have included ignoring FWD, a balance could have been found instead of the "me too" failure of going so hard at FWD across all lines. I could flesh it out a bit more as well, the B-bodies would likely have been axed much sooner, the SUV craze would have been dampened a bit, and the F-body would have been adjusted to niche level. FWD would have evolved separately and not been overly large initially as was the case. Berreta and Corsica would have gotten a bigger push and more advancement...

Do you ever laugh man? :AH-HA_wink:

You'll notice that I included the FWD N-bodies and H-bodies in my scenario.

[Robert Hall]

Interesting, if a bit pessimistic. My scenario would not have included ignoring FWD, a balance could have been found instead of the "me too" failure of going so hard at FWD across all lines. I could flesh it out a bit more as well, the B-bodies would likely have been axed much sooner, the SUV craze would have been dampened a bit, and the F-body would have been adjusted to niche level. FWD would have evolved separately and not been overly large initially as was the case. Berreta and Corsica would have gotten a bigger push and more advancement...

I think the sedans could have gone FWD but the coupes stayed RWD, like the Thunderbird and Cougar did thru '96.... alas, regardless of FWD vs RWD, the old 'personal luxury' coupe market that Monte Carlo/Grand Prix/Cutlass Supreme/Regal occupied has died out over the last decade.

[Camino LS6]

Do you ever laugh man? :AH-HA_wink:

You'll notice that I included the FWD N-bodies and H-bodies in my scenario.

Point taken

I do tend to be pretty serious about this.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I think it's a bit hard to judge the sales of Zeta as a whole on a limited production import vehicle.

No it won't and if you think GM won't be watching them too, ur crazy! I can't wait to see the pained look on some GM Executive's faces! I've scheduled work I need to do at GM headquarters soon after each launch, so I can see it in person. It should be fun to watch.

[Drew Dowdell]

No it won't and if you think GM won't be watching them too, ur crazy! I can't wait to see the pained look on some GM Executive's faces! I've scheduled work I need to do at GM headquarters soon after each launch, so I can see it in person. It should be fun to watch.

I'll never expect the G8 as is, to outsell the GP.... even after fleet sales are eliminated. Arent they only planning on importing 50k per year or so?

[Camino LS6]

It would have been nice,though, to have had factory TPI-powered Monte Carlo SSs with ABS in say, 1987. That the Gs were still saddled with carbs to the end (on V8s) is just sad.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I'll never expect the G8 as is, to outsell the GP.... even after fleet sales are eliminated. Arent they only planning on importing 50k per year or so?

It won't be much more than that, although some on here have stated 80k. Not unless they expand Holden's one plant, and I think you know how the UAW & CAW would react to that here.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Camino LS6]

The real test will be Camaro and Impala.

[Cory Wolfe]

I think it's a bit hard to judge the sales of Zeta as a whole on a limited production import vehicle.

I'll never expect the G8 as is, to outsell the GP.... even after fleet sales are eliminated. Arent they only planning on importing 50k per year or so?

The real test will be Camaro and Impala.

For all... Agreed.

Back to the W-body. There are a few I would own. The ASC/McLaren Turbo Grand Prix, Shortstar powered Intrigue, SC 3800 powered Grand Prix GTP coupe, and 3.4 powered Cutlass Supreme convertible among the few.

[Robert Hall]

For all... Agreed.

Back to the W-body. There are a few I would own. The ASC/McLaren Turbo Grand Prix, Shortstar powered Intrigue, SC 3800 powered Grand Prix GTP coupe, and 3.4 powered Cutlass Supreme convertible among the few.

A Cutlass Supreme convertible would be interesting to update with the 5.3 V8 or a supercharged 3800. A friend of mine has a red w/ white interior '94 Supreme convertible (along with an '06 GTO and 6 '67-71 GTOs), it's a fun summer car..

[ocnblu]

The G8 will be a nicer car overall than any W-body Grand Prix. Yes, the name sucks and the styling is... under the radar... but guaranteed, the driving experience will trump any FWD car, even those powered by the excellent smallblock V8.

[Drew Dowdell]

The G8 will be a nicer car overall than any W-body Grand Prix. Yes, the name sucks and the styling is... under the radar... but guaranteed, the driving experience will trump any FWD car, even those powered by the excellent smallblock V8.

When the previous generation Monaro was running with a M5, I can't imagine there would be many complaints.

[knightfan26917]

Yeah yeah ... I know a lot of discussion has gone on since this quote ... but, wanted to highlight this....

...in no way want GM to build clones of the old G bodys today.

Bingo. This is a point that people tend to either overlook, ignore or not even consider. I'm the same way ... I definitely do not want 1980s/1970s technology in today's cars. BUT ... I also dislike being insulted.

Sadly, we'll never know what would've happened if GM had taken even a slightly different approach to the RWD/FWD debate. I, too, can be very serious about this, but obviously for fairly different reasons. I chuckle when people say, "but nobody will buy RWD". Oh, no? Then explain the sales of trucks/SUVs ... RWD ones, that is. And, I chuckle even more when people add that the sales of FWD is great. Well, d'oh ... that is just about all that is available these days. So, it would stand to reason that FWD sales would be more than RWD.

*shrugs*

But, what the helk do I know? According to some, I'm not a Chevrolet enthusiast. Go figure.

Cort:33swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve.pacemaker

PICS:lego.HO.model.MCinfo.RT.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort

my radio show:CD SHOWCASE.7:30p central.Friday/April 20 = www.wrmn1410.com

[Intrepidation]

I chuckle when people say, "but nobody will buy RWD". Oh, no? Then explain the sales of trucks/SUVs ... RWD ones, that is.

Or the LX cars

[Camino LS6]

Or Mustang, or Solstice, or Sky, or BMW...

[z28luvr01]

Interesting, if a bit pessimistic. My scenario would not have included ignoring FWD, a balance could have been found instead of the "me too" failure of going so hard at FWD across all lines. I could flesh it out a bit more as well, the B-bodies would likely have been axed much sooner, the SUV craze would have been dampened a bit, and the F-body would have been adjusted to niche level. FWD would have evolved separately and not been overly large initially as was the case. Berreta and Corsica would have gotten a bigger push and more advancement...

Given GM's (mis)management at the time, I think they'd have screwed up even if they did keep the G-bodies around. The B-bods IIRC were supposed to get certified for the LS1 among other improvements, and were selling pretty well thanks at least in part to the Impala SS. But GM decided to pull the plug and flood America with Tahoes instead :angry2:

[Drew Dowdell]

But GM decided to pull the plug because America was buying Tahoes instead :angry2:

fixed

[Camino LS6]

At that time, GM was making about 15k per Tahoe - so I can't blame them for upping production.

Too bad they chose the B-body plant to do it though, I'd have been happier to see them kill off some of the other junk they were building at the time. I almost got the b-body El Camino I wanted (it was on the way to being approved).

But, if an updated G-body with LT1/LS1 power was around , I don't think you would have sold quite so many Tahoes. The SUV craze happened in large part because no cars with decent room and power were left. These buyers defaulted to SUVs to get towing and family hauling capabilities, not the 4x4 capabilities. The product mix was way off and the Tahoe benefitted hugely. It was the most well-timed new product in recent GM history IMO.

But I think it was a happy accident, not a the result of good planning.

[ocnblu]

Don't forget too, the '91 Caprice was a controversial redesign later partially fixed by enlarging the rear wheel arches. I remember seeing the car for the first time at the Baltimore Auto Show, trunk laden with brochures, so it was reallly low. I liked it, but I think people missed the previous, more squared-off '81-'90 design. The '91 was like a Bath Tub Hudson to a lot of folks.

At the end, I think something like 75% of civilian Chevrolet B-body sales were Impala SSs (which should have been a clue to GM... alas, they missed it and stopped production just when they finally put an analog gauge cluster and floor shifter in the car.)

But then, our beloved GM has had a long history of dropping cars just when they reach the pinnacle of their development...

[Olds Guy]

I don't know. I kind of liked the hidden handles in the Cutlass coupe. Made the door clean without handle.

And the seatbelts were a poor answer to automatic seatbelts. Agreed there that was a bad idea from the get go.

As far as the interiors, I loved my '88 Cutlass International. It was a durable cloth, not the weird velour of so many cars. And it has style, as the cloth had striping in the material. And the air bag seat adjustments were just right. All in all I really liked that ineterior, even the 2+2 seating with rear center console.

True enough... but the GM 10 coupes were no great improvement over the G's, IMHO...the wierd beer-tap door handles, the wierd seatbelts (attached to the doors), ugly interiors, wierd proportions, etc.

[Olds Guy]

I almost got the b-body El Camino I wanted (it was on the way to being approved).

You made me go to the basement and dig up the 3.5 disc with this pic.

This is quite the thread, as most of the cars I have owned have been mentioned here for good or bad.

Had an '81 Regal with 3.8L. Nice looking, horrible engine.

Then came '85 Celebrity Eurosport. Again, nice car, reliable, kind sporty but still economical with the 2.8L. Worked well as college car.

Then '88 Cutlass International probably my second favorite W-car I have owned. Great car despite first MY fears. Everything done right, and loved the little touches.

Then '94 Cutlass Supreme (3.4 DOHC), if '88 was good, '94 should be better, right? Not necessarily. Having owned them back to back I could see every cost reduction that was done between '88 and '94 and didnt like many of them. Still a distinctive car on the road and I kind of miss this car for the looks alone.

Then there was a Bonneville SSEi, not really part of this discussion, but maybe my favorite car of all.

Then '04 GP GTP - yes the SC3800 was beautiful powertrain. The interior left some to be desired.

And now of course the '06 GP GXP. Gotta love a V8, and interior improvements help this car over the '04.

Throw in a '69 442 to the mix and I have had some fun in my GM cars.

Now, that said, I too couldnt stomach the FWD move when it happened. But you know, in snow its great. And you can have some fun in FWD if you spend enough time getting to know how the car handles. Since I have been driving a W-car since 1991, with the excpetion of the SSEi years, I have gotten to know them pretty well, and I think I can hustle these cars around pretty good at this point. Especially now with FE4 on the GXP. You just learn to adjust to the way the car reacts.

[Camino LS6]

Excellent post,Olds Guy.

But, I don't ever plan to adjust to FWD. Old or new, I will always drive RWD.

[Olds Guy]

Excellent post,Olds Guy.

But, I don't ever plan to adjust to FWD. Old or new, I will always drive RWD.

Thank you.

And FWD or RWD or AWD is each person's preference. I like to say that I have spent time in both FWD & RWD and can appreciate each in their differences.

[trinacriabob]

The W-body LIVES !

Still have it as my daily driver: 235,000 miles - turns 15 on May 16th. Currently has blackwalls, but is pretty much in the condition you see.

In a Latin country, she would be getting her quincanera.