Land of the Free

[ocnblu]

Hmmm... how do ya like them apples?

HARSH YOU SAY??

1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.

2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.

3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.

4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other government assistance programs.

5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no waving a foreign flag, no political organizing, no "bad-mouthing" our president or his policies If you do you will be sent home.

8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down and sent straight to jail.

Harsh, you say?

The above laws happen to be the immigration laws of Mexico

[Screaming Trees]

You know its funny how the Mexican government complains about how the US treats illegal Mexican imigrants but they treat illegal imigrants into thier country a lot worse.

No other country on the planet would bend the way we do to accomodate other people. The proof is right there. They bitch and moan about how we should adapt our society just for them. Would thier country do it for us? No, We would have to adapt to thier way of life. If we were to have laws like that every other country would hate us even more and protest, cry, and complain about how unfair and cruel we are. Bring up the fact that other countries are the same if not worse....well that doesn't matter what they do, it only matters what we do so they have a reason to bitch.

[Camino LS6]

Most interesting.

[Flybrian]

Is it any wonder that they want to come here?

[Intrepidation]

Good policy, we should adopt it. If foreigners become legal citizens of the US then all is is fine, if not well...

[Flybrian]

Good policy, we should adopt it. If foreigners become legal citizens of the US then all is is fine, if not well...

Cool. Gonna go pick some oranges now? Unemployed Americans complain that working at McDonalds is 'degrading.'

[Intrepidation]

Cool. Gonna go pick some oranges now? Unemployed Americans complain that working at McDonalds is 'degrading.'

I worked at McDonalds...it's not degrading it's just a ton of work...it also gives insight into how stupid the customer can be.

[CSpec]

Good policy, we should adopt it. If foreigners become legal citizens of the US then all is is fine, if not well...

You know, lots of Americans complain about immigration, but how many of them arrived in this country a) legally and b) with open arms? A small number I would say.

[Intrepidation]

How did your ancestors arrive in this country?

From England, by ship. Do you know that one of the diaries my ancestors have states who fired "the shot heard around the world"?

Anyway, I have no problem with peopme legally immigrating to America, and I have no problem with them becoming citizens. I do have a problem with peopel illegally coming here, not paying taxes, and then demanding all sorts of rights. They want rights? Become a legal resident at the least.

[Farkas]

I want to know how much it costs/the effort needed to become a US citizen. What prevents people from not doing it legally? Is it a laziness thing, an education thing, or something entirely different? Sorry to sound so naive...

My grandparents came to this country legally from Poland in the late 30's to escape the Third Reich. I wonder how much has changed in 80+/- years in immigration laws. Again, sorry to sound so naive. I just have absolutely no knowledge in this area and would like to be informed.

[trinacriabob]

Don't forget they also have their military posted at their southern boarder with orders to shoot to kill.

Grew up in L.A. (Latin America, LOL) and went to Mexico for the FIRST TIME last year because my friend from San Diego twisted my arm. It is a mere 134 miles from where I grew up. It was Tijuana that we went to and it was nothing short of gross.

Yet, I've been to Spain 4 x and to Argentina 2 x and they are 11 hours away by plane. Is it any wonder?

Yada yada...I know the beaches at Cancun/Cozumel and down at Cabo/Puerto Vallarta are very nice but I don't want to go to a place where you should fear driving (just in case you were to get in a wreck) to avoid landing in some far away jail and have to bribe your way out...at least that's what I've been told...it's corrupt.

If someone wants to come here, they need to pull their 'effin weight and stop complaining. And I resent bilingual everything because that is not an option available to all immigrants. Those coming from countries with smaller representations do not have that luxury. My parents had to learn to speak English...quickly.

[Intrepidation]

To all those illegal immigrants (most of which speak Spanish and make us adapt because your lazy asses won't learn our language)...Learn f@#king English assholes!

[Satty]

Is pure ignorance a Massachusetts thing?

[Intrepidation]

Is pure ignorance a Massachusetts thing?

How would you, in your obviously superior wisdom, classify the following as ignorance:

This country was founded on people immigrating from other parts of the world, however the language has always been English. It's the primary language of the country. Now consider tech following: people have come here from China, Japan, Russia, Germany, and so on...you name it. These people came here, and they learned English so as to communicate with everyone else. Most of these people also came here legally.

However, now we have all of these people illegally immigrating from oh say..Mexico, people coming from places like Puerto Rico, DR, and so on. Many of them don't speak English and seem to refuse to. In fact, some one who could barely speak English told my friend he should learn Spanish...we're both like "erm, no...you learn better English."

I live in a town where 80% of the population here is mainly from Puerto Rico and DR. What I hate about this place(aside from the high crime, disgusting trash everywhere, poor roads, and of course, insane insurance rates) is that hardly anyone has an American flag up, yet they all have flags from the those to places.

Anyway, as I'm sure even you have noticed more and more products, signs, and so on having Spanish right below (sometimes even above!) the English. So tell me...how come everyone else seemed to be able to legally immigrate here, learn English, get citizenship, and become productive, contributive members of American society...yet for some reason we have so many people from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, and such who can't seem to do that.

Before your high-and-mightiness decides to jump to conclusions and say I'm picking on them or whatever, 2 of my best friends are from 2 of those regions...but they know English, are nice people, don't throw trash everywhere, and so on...it's not that everyone from the countries are like what I mentioned, it just seems either a majority are and/or they are just the most vocal about wanting rights and so one when they aren't even here legally.

I haven't pulled out statistics and all that happy stuff, so there may be some flaws to my analogy, but it's not totally false.

But I'm ignorant and know nothing. That makes you arrogant.

[ocnblu]

We have a high concentration of Spanish-speaking people here in Lancaster. A lot of people say it is because our welfare laws are lenient.

People who cannot speak the prevailing language should learn it before making the move. Nothing puts business to a halt faster than a language barrier. I don't give a crap what they speak at home, to do business in the USA, you need to speak and understand the native language here. They come here, they need to be legal, they need to pull their weight, and they need to learn English, dammit. And what is with all these Puerto Rican flags on cars? I have never seen a Pennsylvania flag on a car. If you miss it so much, go back.

I'm in the middle of it here, and it pisses me off. English is the language here. I refuse to learn Spanish.

[Intrepidation]

We have a high concentration of Spanish-speaking people here in Lancaster. A lot of people say it is because our welfare laws are lenient.

People who cannot speak the prevailing language should learn it before making the move. Nothing puts business to a halt faster than a language barrier. I don't give a crap what they speak at home, to do business in the USA, you need to speak and understand the native language here. They come here, they need to be legal, they need to pull their weight, and they need to learn English, dammit. And what is with all these Puerto Rican flags on cars? I have never seen a Pennsylvania flag on a car. If you miss it so much, go back.

I'm in the middle of it here, and it pisses me off. English is the language here. I refuse to learn Spanish.

Exactly...couldn't have said it better myself.

[Flybrian]

Well, here's the illegal immigrant success story people don't like the hear...

Two people both came here illegally from Mexico at a young age (17/18) with a newborn child. The father worked hard, they both learned English, and were granted amnesty under Ronald Reagan's administration. Today, they live in a nice bungalow they own, he works as a maintenance superintendant at a local hospital, his wife stays at home mostly and raises the younger children, and their daughter is going to college. They own three cars, contribute to the local economy, speak English, and live a life far better than was possible in Mexico. These folks are my girlfriend's parents and - legal or not - they came to America the right way; with a desire to better their lives and be part of this country.

See, your sincerity and character are not determined by your legal status; its determined by the person. If I could cherry pick, I would certainly naturalize a few thousand illegal immigrants with a real sincere desire to be American in exchange for expatriating an equal number of slovenly, undeserving natural-born 'Americans' who couldn't care less about the nation that gave them the freedom to be lazy and complain.

On the subject of language, truth be told, not learning English in this country - nay, this world - is a function of laziness. Citizens will agree to that and foreigners who do speak English REALLY agree with that. English is not our official language, but it is the world language of commerce, trade, education, and communications. If air traffic controllers in Nairobi have to learn English, why shouldn't someone living in the largest English-speaking nation? Its not a matter of law; its a matter of common sense to do so.

The Puerto Rican flag thing is a tangent, but I agree it doesn't quite make sense. I remember a classmate born here with Puerto Rican roots saying, "Puerto Rico is better than the States." Uh. No its not. It is the states.

[trinacriabob]

And what is with all these Puerto Rican flags on cars? I have never seen a Pennsylvania flag on a car. If you miss it so much, go back.

I refuse to learn Spanish.

The first part: funny!

As for languages to learn, that was exactly the reason I took French for 2 and a half years in high school. Then, in college, I took Spanish for a change and to facilitate vacation travel as an adult to places I wanted to go: namely Spain and Argentina. I sure as hell didn't learn it to help out somebody's lazy ass. And that was the same reason I taught myself Portuguese - so I can vacation over there, or possibly in Brazil, and enjoy it more.

[aaaantoine]

Knowing a foreign language could help you out sometimes.

My neighbor accidentally set her TV language to Spanish, somehow. It's been pissing her off for awhile. While I am not fluent in Spanish, I did take it for a few years in high school and have had some real-world exposure to it. I understood it well enough to navigate the TV menu to find... "Idioma". Her TV speaks English again.

[CARBIZ]

Eu falar um pouco de Portuguese. I took lessons for a year, out of respect for my Brazilian partner (and so I could at least get a basic idea what my "in-laws" were saying about me!) and because I couldn't imagine going to Brazil (twice already) and being totally helpless. Pure survival instinct, on my part.

Canada has a similar problem, not with Spanish, but with other languages. The real issue is what I call "critical mass." Once a particular minority group reaches a certain concentration of population, they naturally begin to feel that they don't need the rest of us.

I have watched my partner of nearly 5 years struggle with English. We have no kids (obviously). He has money. He has taken several courses, yet he is probably at a grade 3 or 4 level proficiency. Portugese and English (like Spanish) at least share the same alphabet and general rules. What about Farsi or Mandarin? How many years would it take a married Indian man, with 3 screaming kids at home, two jobs and NO English to learn English? Ten years? What if all his friends/co-workers are also Indian? Isolation is part of the problem. They gravitate to their own and remain there.

The trouble for Canada, is that our embassies lie to these people. They are painted a picture of shangri-la and of easily molding into the Canadian "mosaic." That may have been the case 20 years ago, but I can state from experience that we are getting exasperated at the bastardization of the language, and of poor service because the person you are dealing with only has a rudimentary understanding of the language.

When my partner was sworn in, as part of his "landing" ceremony 2 years ago, fully half of the room of 30 or so people had an interpreter with them. Since it takes a minimum of 2-3 years to "land" in this country, even my partner agreed that a bus should be waiting outside to take these people to the airport if they are unable to get by on English (or French, since it is an offical language for us) after 2 - 3 years.

BUT WE MAKE NO SUCH DEMANDS ON THESE PEOPLE. Then they bitch and whine that they can't get jobs.

[Oracle of Delphi]

In Germany where I went to what you would call Grade School, all children had to learn 3 languages by age 10 and be fluent in them, at that time. Most took English, Russian and French. I didn't, I took, English, Latin and Italian. Learning Latin opened the door to understanding all the Romance languages and even English, since 80% of English words have Latin roots.

I would consider myself, muti-cultural and multi-lingual, however I speak English whenever possible, you know the old saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do. So in the US I speak English, in Germany I speak German and in Latin American countries I speak Spanish, allbeit I've stopped using Vosotros altogether now.

Oh by the way, I got here by U-Boat! :rotflmao:

[CSpec]

People who characterize immigrants based on a few bad apples are just spurious and ignorant. Most Americans wouldn't pass the citizenship test, there are plenty of lazy Americans who leech on the welfare system, there are plenty of Americans who run drugs and all that. Americans like to blame all the (perceived) problems in the country on this vague, faceless group called "immigrants" and rattle their swords every once in a while, while completely forgetting that most Southern and Eastern European immigrants often got here through semi-legal means (at best) and were certainly not at all welcome by the established folk. Chinese immigrants know this all too well.

Oh, and the US has no official language. Many of the older aforementioned immigrants never learned English either; my dad's landlord in grad school in the late 70's came over from Italy in the 20s and couldn't speak a word of English till the day she died. Mexican immigrants have largely replaced the Southern and Eastern European immigrants of yore.

[Cory Wolfe]

I would have to agree with CSpec and other's stance throughout this. Immigration has been present since before there was a US. Without it, the US wouldn't be what it is today.

[z28luvr01]

I have no problem with immigration at all...I'm three generations removed from Mother Italy myself. But, like everything else, there's a legal way to do things and an illegal way to do things. The legal way needs to be clearly defined and made accessible to all potential immigrants, and punishment for taking the illegal route should be consistent for everyone. As of right now, neither of those things are being done in this country.

[CARBIZ]

Cspec, I respectfully disagree. There are a lot of things different about the immigrants of today than 50, 60 or more years ago. I will give you three reasons:

1) The internet

2) cheap phone cards

3) cheap air travel

4) televsion

Okay, 4 reasons. TV shows them what they are missing. The internet and phone cards means they can keep in touch with their friends and family at home; therefore, they don't have to make any kind of commitment to their new land. Cheap air travel means nearly anyone can buy a one way ticket to any where - and they can visit their homeland whenever they want.

Immigrants of yore were forced to commit to their new country. They would work hard and "become" Americans (or Canadians.) Stats Canada's latest polling shows that immigrants of the past 10 years are not integrating.

DUH. They don't need to! They have their own associations, businesses, banks, schools...and they can tap into tax payer funded programs any time they want.

Yes, immigration has always been the bogey man for a nation's ills, but there are a lot of things wrong with what is happening NOW. What I find interesting is that since 9-11, the door has opened a crack. Although due to PC limitations, critics are still tip-toeing around the subject, the Elephant in the Room is that most people don't want "those kind of people" into the country. Under the auspices of "national security," authorities are focusing on illegaly immigrants, but let's face it, what people can't say is that they disapprove of immigration in general, certain countries specifically.

You cannot compare 50,000 Dukhabor farmers dumped into Saskatchewan in 1890s to the over one million Asians currently living in the Toronto area. Seriously, you cannot.

I realize that this is such a hot topic, but I LIVE this subject every day. The chattering classes will discuss the issue as long as no microphones are in their faces.

[FAPTurbo]

Who would want to immigrate to Mexico anyway, illegally or not?

[Intrepidation]

Who would want to immigrate to Mexico anyway, illegally or not?

[ocnblu]

This country was built on immigration. My dad's paternal side came over the the late 1840's from Germany. My mom's paternal side can be traced back to pre Revolution days, to the presidents Adams. We are the melting pot of the world, after all. But English is our language. Learn it, live it, speak it... and you will have a much easier time fitting in. Especially for business, I mean, come on. And I am not saying anything about crime... except the crime of not going through the lawful process and not learning the language. The host country should not bend so much and make it so easy for some to not have to learn to speak English... it is the newcomer's responsibility to learn to get along here.

[balthazar]

>>"People who characterize immigrants based on a few bad apples are just spurious and ignorant."<<

Likewise those that characterise "most Americans" based on a few bad apples.

Some >>"Americans like to blame all the (perceived) problems in the country on this vague, faceless group called"<< Americans.

>>"Most Americans wouldn't pass the citizenship test"<<

Most drivers can't changed their own oil. Most college students wouldn't pass college tests... unless they studied for them. Why would Americans study for a test they already aced (ie: they ARE citizens)?

>>"most Southern and Eastern European immigrants often got here through semi-legal means (at best) "<<

Really? Fascinating. Sources, please.

>>"Oh, and the US has no official language. "<<

This is merely a duck around the issue; so there is no specific law proclaiming a particular language as 'official'. I ask you- what language has every law ever written in this country been in?

That's more than enough for anyone to recognize it as "official" without a paper technicality behind it.

[trinacriabob]

>>"People who characterize immigrants based on a few bad apples are just spurious and ignorant."<<

Likewise those that characterise "most Americans" based on a few bad apples.

Some >>"Americans like to blame all the (perceived) problems in the country on this vague, faceless group called"<< Americans.

>>"Most Americans wouldn't pass the citizenship test"<<

Most drivers can't changed their own oil. Most college students wouldn't pass college tests... unless they studied for them. Why would Americans study for a test they already aced (ie: they ARE citizens)?

>>"most Southern and Eastern European immigrants often got here through semi-legal means (at best) "<<

Really? Fascinating. Sources, please.

>>"Oh, and the US has no official language. "<<

This is merely a duck around the issue; so there is no specific law proclaiming a particular language as 'official'. I ask you- what language has every law ever written in this country been in?

That's more than enough for anyone to recognize it as "official" without a paper technicality behind it.

Was law school ever in your plans? :AH-HA_wink:

[Intrepidation]

>>"People who characterize immigrants based on a few bad apples are just spurious and ignorant."<<

Likewise those that characterise "most Americans" based on a few bad apples.

Some >>"Americans like to blame all the (perceived) problems in the country on this vague, faceless group called"<< Americans.

>>"Most Americans wouldn't pass the citizenship test"<<

Most drivers can't changed their own oil. Most college students wouldn't pass college tests... unless they studied for them. Why would Americans study for a test they already aced (ie: they ARE citizens)?

>>"most Southern and Eastern European immigrants often got here through semi-legal means (at best) "<<

Really? Fascinating. Sources, please.

>>"Oh, and the US has no official language. "<<

This is merely a duck around the issue; so there is no specific law proclaiming a particular language as 'official'. I ask you- what language has every law ever written in this country been in?

That's more than enough for anyone to recognize it as "official" without a paper technicality behind it.

Well said.

[CSpec]

Well said.

Ha, hardly. How does being born here exempt one from having to learn the basic history of the country? Why is it even tested?

[Intrepidation]

Ha, hardly. How does being born here exempt one from having to learn the basic history of the country? Why is it even tested?

How do you figure we're exempt? Have you ever taken a history class?

It's kinda required...high school, college...even grammar school we took history...

Edited April 13, 2007 by Dodgefan

[CSpec]

How do you figure we're exempt? Have you ever taken a history class?

It's kinda required...high school, college...even grammar school we took history...

Yet most Americans would not pass the citizenship test, as has been documented numerous times.

[Satty]

On the subject of language, English isn't an easy language for native Spanish speakers to pick up, hell, a lot of people born in this country cannot speak the language properly.

[Nick]

Just to throw in a recent incident...

Some of you may have heard about this, but for others...

A movie director and his young 20-something (want to say 23) son were killed in a car accident on PCH last week. They were killed when a drunk driver hit them head on. To give a bit of background info, this movie director did "A Christmas Story" and the "Porky's" series. The drunk driver walked away with minor scratches and bruising...

...Oh yea...one more thing...the drunk driver was an illegal alien...

Edited April 13, 2007 by Nick

[ocnblu]

Land of the Free.

Sad.

[CARBIZ]

My partner has been studying for his Canadian citizenship test for about 3 months. I am proud of the fact that I am able to answer nearly all of his questions from memory. I have no problem with immigrants being tested this way. Firstly, the fact that they can answer the questions at all is a disguised English proficiency test. Secondly, those of us born here are taught this stuff all through school, it's just that it is taught at an age where most of us found it deathly boring. I was fascinated by world geography when I was a kid, but hated history, especially Canadian history. Modern Canadian history makes my blood boil, because it is all being re-written to paint the Europeans as a bunch of blood-thirsty conquerors who enslaved or wiped out peaceful, eco-friendly indigenous people. Hogwash and balderdash!

I don't know about south of the border, but Canadian schools are being taught a different history than I was 35 years ago. More crap from the products of 40 years of liberal social arts programs.

Just remember the tens of thousands of "Canadians" who had to be re-patriated from Beirut last summer (at the cost of some 40 million dollars, it is "estimated"), most of whom promptly went right back to their homes in the area once the fighting stopped.

[usonia]

There's something I've wondered about for a long time and I've never been able to find a good answer so if anyone has any idea, let me know. I don't konw if this is true in all countries, but in this country, you automatically become a citizen if you are born here. Why is that? It would seem to make more sense to me that your citizenship be whatever your parent's citizenship is (or at a minimum, the mother's) at the time you are born regardless of where you were born.

[CARBIZ]

That is an interesting point, and one that is often exploited. It is quite simple for a woman (even if she is already pregnant) to come here, say on a tourist visa, then have the baby here. This baby is automatically a citizen, given the nature of its birth certificate. The mother works here illegally for years, and then applies for legal status, on "humanitarian"grounds. It is a well worn loophole. The immigration industry (the lawyers, advocates, para-legals and organizations who feed off the immigration business) know how to use this well.

The situation is further exacerbated in the Great White North due to our "free" medical. Recently, the Toyota Star did a bleeding heart piece, comparing Sweden's health care system to Canada's and the Star wondered why, oh why was Sweden's working better, with less spending. HELLO! Sweden doesn't have 350,000 "new Canadians" arriving every year, many of whom have never been to a doctor in their lives!

Sometimes I get crazy when the obviousness of something jumps out at you, yet the "experts" all skirt the real issues and politcal correctness buries it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

In Germany at the time I was born, you only became a citizen if at least one of your parents were German by blood. It is called the German Nationality law and is still in effect. I think we need something like it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

[CSpec]

In Germany at the time I was born, you only became a citizen if at least one of your parents were German by blood. It is called the German Nationality law and is still in effect. I think we need something like it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

How is that a remotely good idea?

[aaaantoine]

Just to throw in a recent incident...

Some of you may have heard about this, but for others...

A movie director and his young 20-something (want to say 23) son were killed in a car accident on PCH last week. They were killed when a drunk driver hit them head on. To give a bit of background info, this movie director did "A Christmas Story" and the "Porky's" series. The drunk driver walked away with minor scratches and bruising...

...Oh yea...one more thing...the drunk driver was an illegal alien...

Methinks you're pouring fuel on the wrong fire.

This man didn't kill the director and his son because he's an illegal alien...

...He killed them because he's a drunken asshole.

Now, if because of his non-citizenship we can't appropriately prosecute him, well, then you can blame him for being an illegal immigrant.

[Oracle of Delphi]

How is that a remotely good idea?

UMMM, one of your parents has to be a citizen already before you can just swim across the Rio Grande and drop your load on US soil and call it a citizen.

[balthazar]

Yet most Americans would not pass the citizenship test, as has been documented numerous times.

What is this crap? I assume this 'documentation' concerns pop-quizzing Americans who have not studied for the citizenship test. As if that was proof of anything except how to point out the self-haters (those pointing at said Americans and proclaiming: 'Look what dumb f*cks they are!!').

Did you like cars before you were able to drive?

Did you pass your driver's test?

Did you study for it?

Uh-huh.