SHANGHAI: 2008 Buick Park Avenue (China)

[Regalguy01]

For designing and engineering a car this stunning I say:

For NOT bringing this car to the Us, rather saddling us down with the nice Lucerne and merely compotent Lacrosse, I say:

Before I rant, let me also say that interior is absolutely G-O-R-G-E-O-U-S. It looks, pampering, soothing and inviting.

Now, a few years ago Buick said its mission was to beome an 'American Lexus'. Lexus sells on their quality, plush interiors and style(or lack thereof) I have to admit, since I drive an ES at least twice a week, that the cars are very smooth and have not had any problems out of(other than herky-jerky tranny) the ES after 74k miles. Style is a matter of subjectivity but the car buying public has shown that they have a deep appreciation for the Asian take on car styling. It is my belief that this chinese PA represents Buicks best attempt at nailing those attributes and acheiving its Lexus-like goal. This car would not look at all out of place on the same parking lot as the new Enclave. In fact, I believe it is cars like these that bring traffic into the auto dealer. Many people go to the dealer in search of one car and end up buying another one, often times a cheaper one, but it was the more expensive, better looking car that brought them to the dealer in the 1st place.

Must I slant my eyes in order for GM/BUICK to make a car that appeals to me the way this chinese PA does???

'Cause if they look like this with interiors this good, I might just be heading to extreme makeover!

[regfootball]

You would pay $55,000 for it too?

NFW this car would be 55k. Those projections are just made up excuses for why we don't have it.

[regfootball]

So why do we keep getting hand me downs here in the U.S. exactly? Oh thats right the Chinese are so much more discerning when it comes to the details...LOL!, B.S. I say!! I don't mind the Lucerne thats currently out, the Lacrosse...eh not the best to me. But when you see a car like this that GM can execute so well it kind of makes you wonder what their marketing strategy is for us.

i am starting to think they are deliberately trying to get it so that the N/A arm of GM suffers so badly so that then they can get all the pieces in place to say 'in order for us to stay in business we need to design and build all our cars in other countries'. that way they can kill off the UAW and all the associated health care and pension costs and they can be free to design, engineer, and build all their cars in third world countries. Then, if they get that, then they can actually start to bring back the cars we want to buy. i also think that if they starve the dealers of product that dealers want, they can move towards busting all the crippling franchise laws and dealer agreements.

basically they are saying, 'if we are going to build and engineer them here, then we can only give you old designed junky cars. if you want the good stuff, we need to outsource everything and import it back into the country to stay competitive'. then the only jobs they need here are sales and marketing jobs. if they can bust the dealers, and trim them, then long term they can move towards direct marketing and selling the cars without near as many dealers. the dealer network is just as bad a leech as the UAW is on the manufacturing side.

Seriously, if GM can sell you this car with Daewoo building it and importing it back, its a great option if they say they can't build this car here.

[big blue]

I just thought of this, but another point of the Park Ave is this shows China CAN develop well thought out cars. So while we can all dismiss Chery as a threat to any manufacturer over here for now, it's only a matter of time until those people in China with talent start designing cars. Then we might have something to worry about...

[sciguy_0504]

The interior is beautiful, I love the design with the HVAC vents integrated into the door. The grain on the dashboard is a bit much and I think it makes it look cheap (what Seigen was hinting at). The exterior is alright, somewhat bland, and I'm not a fan of the BMW-esque headlights. It does look huge, though. The side profile is long but that's a good thing.

[6t5frlane]

Wake up GM.......Let that car be sold here

[ToniCipriani]

The only complaint I have: Why the hell did they write the word Buick inside the clock with that tri-shield, as well as giving it a cheap Timex EL look? It looks out of place for that cozy interior. Just give it a nice clean clock that follows the scheme of the instrument cluster.

"I don't like the clock." -- James May, Top Gear

[Dragon]

what exactly did the Chinese design? Looks like a statesman to me, down to the Holden steering wheel

[gm4life]

I just want one and I would pay 45K for one not anymore than 50.

[thegriffon]

NFW this car would be 55k. Those projections are just made up excuses for why we don't have it.

Not a projection reg. That's the price, given by GM China in the release. An Australian-built 3.6 L Statesman without all the extra kit is still $US 48,600 and a Caprice $US 54,370 so all that extra equipment in the PA is quite a bargain (it is quite a bit cheaper than the imported Royaum). With the $A now well over $US 0.80 GM will be struggling to sell the G8 V6 at a profit for under $US33K. Of course they may be able to cut the price of the bigger PA, but if you think it would land in the US for much less then $US45K (given the added expenses of US compliance, Tier 2 bin 5 emissions [the PA is only Euro3], and shipping across the Pacific), you're living in La-La Land. Of course I think GM should be promoting this vehicle in the US just to get people to think Buick="luxurious, expensive". I think they could build a nice V8 version in the US for substantially less than a similarly equipped LS460L, but that costs over $US70K, and you've illustrated that people will not accept a Buick priced at more than half that. If you want $15-20K cut from the price, then I'm sorry, the materials and equipment will suffer. I'd say "buy a Hyundai instead", but a lwb Genesis will apparenty be out of your price-range too.

[carstar]

what exactly did the Chinese design? Looks like a statesman to me, down to the Holden steering wheel

Chinese design are nothing but rip-offs. A country that steals other carmaker ideas /design ex: chery/chevy, Plutus copy of the Colorado, a concept suv that is a rip off of prev. gen Honda CRX, designs that look like old generations of BMW/MB.

Sometimes they add shiny buttons, wood/chrome on a polished toaster,. The best they can do is a badge engineering job.

On this they did an ok job.

The HAVC center is from a [post="http://www.globalautoindex.com/picview.plt?p=news/1392&n=5"]35k chinese lax[/post]

with no mp3 outlet!! How f--- sad! And it has the same int. idea as the LAX : add long strips of wood all on the dash center, console, steering wheel and call it a day. despite of what i said, i would like to see the interior like this on any US buick soon

I love the 2008 CTS, but not this.

[thegriffon]

The interior is beautiful, I love the design with the HVAC vents integrated into the door. The grain on the dashboard is a bit much and I think it makes it look cheap (what Seigen was hinting at). The exterior is alright, somewhat bland, and I'm not a fan of the BMW-esque headlights. It does look huge, though. The side profile is long but that's a good thing.

It's almost exactly the same size as a lwb VW Phaeton, slightly bigger than the Lucerne. The Australian Statesman is almost exactly the same size as the Lucerne but with better interior room in almost every dimension. The Chinese redesign adds just over half an inch to the overall length (all in the nose) but the new interior will probably cut into interior room quite a bit. Trunk size has been reduced quite a bit (505 v 535 L), but that may just be SAE v VDA standards (more VDA boxes than SAE boxes). As you can see from the photos it's meant more as a 4-seater with only occasional use of the center-rear seat (which still gets a lap-sash belt). Many of the photos exaggerate the length—it isn't really that long. Edited April 11, 2007 by thegriffon

[mrblackwell17]

black that whole thing out and slap some red GS badges over it instead of the park avenue... get some get some upscale muscle in the sedan department. i cant wait for the impalas if the buicks are going to look this good!

I'm with ya on that! The front view of this car is fantastic! Now add some portholes, fix the tailight/decklid area and add the GS badges.

I'd buy it, but not for more than 45K, as someone already stated.

[thegriffon]

Chinese design are nothing but rip-offs. A country that steals other carmaker ideas /design ex: chery/chevy, Plutus copy of the Colorado, a concept suv that is a rip off of prev. gen Honda CRX, designs that look like old generations of BMW/MB.

Sometimes they add shiny buttons, wood/chrome on a polished toaster,. The best they can do is a badge engineering job.

On this they did an ok job.

The HAVC center is from a [post="http://www.globalautoindex.com/picview.plt?p=news/1392&n=5"]35k chinese lax[/post]

with no mp3 outlet!! How f--- sad! And it has the same int. idea as the LAX : add long strips of wood all on the dash center, console, steering wheel and call it a day. despite of what i said, i would like to see the interior like this on any US buick soon

I love the 2008 CTS, but not this.

Aside from GM/SAIC's PATAC, most Chinese companies don't have any experienced design staff, and I have heard of any hiring any. All the new models (not rebodied Japanese pickups or subcompacts from the '80s) are designed by European firms such as Pininfarina, Italdesign, IDEA etc. (as were pre-GM Daewoos—PM mistook a Chinese model being tested in North America for a new Magnus/Epica, both probably designed by the same Italian firm).

[silverss/sc]

While I wouldnt be buying one , I think this a absolutely gorgeous car . This car , along with the Enclave would SERIOUSLY elevate the perception of the Buick in the US imo . An to tell ya the truth , even its traditional older customer base would likely prefer the RWD over anything Buick has now in the the US .

[regfootball]

Not a projection reg. That's the price, given by GM China in the release. An Australian-built 3.6 L Statesman without all the extra kit is still $US 48,600 and a Caprice $US 54,370 so all that extra equipment in the PA is quite a bargain (it is quite a bit cheaper than the imported Royaum). With the $A now well over $US 0.80 GM will be struggling to sell the G8 V6 at a profit for under $US33K. Of course they may be able to cut the price of the bigger PA, but if you think it would land in the US for much less then $US45K (given the added expenses of US compliance, Tier 2 bin 5 emissions [the PA is only Euro3], and shipping across the Pacific), you're living in La-La Land. Of course I think GM should be promoting this vehicle in the US just to get people to think Buick="luxurious, expensive". I think they could build a nice V8 version in the US for substantially less than a similarly equipped LS460L, but that costs over $US70K, and you've illustrated that people will not accept a Buick priced at more than half that. If you want $15-20K cut from the price, then I'm sorry, the materials and equipment will suffer. I'd say "buy a Hyundai instead", but a lwb Genesis will apparenty be out of your price-range too.

there is nothing about the appointment, design, or materials in this car that would keep this car from being made and sold in the US for starting price low 30's.

the inflated money projected in all those press releases are obviously spiked due to currency issues and other logistical reasons.

The engines, suspensions, body, dash, all those things about this car are fairly typical of what other carmakers do on a regular basis in joe blow to entry lux segments.

With this design and level of tech and content....a base v6 of this car should be had close to 30-32k. the DCX 300 remember starts in the 26k range. Base Chargers go out the door for around 20k these days. Popularly equipped versions of a v6 park avenue should be mid to high thirties MSRP. Maxxed out lux v8 versions with all the toys could approach 45k IMHO.

There is nothing about this car that the 300 from DCX doesn't have (except for some nicer interior bits) and that alone won't make the difference between a 35,000 dollar 300 and 50-70k needed price for this. Sorry, I just don't see it.

GM will make plenty of money selling the G8 if they can move them at 33k. If they have to sell them for less than the customer has spoken. thing is if they can't sell them for the price they want at the amenity level the customer wants, then they are incompetent and should go out of business. My bet says they will sell US made G8's and statemans here without having to spend big $$$$ that AU has already spent to develop the car. In the meantime, I struggle to see how its such a liability for them to bring a few over here to round out the Buick lineup and serve as a stunning new flagship.

Edited April 11, 2007 by regfootball

[vrazzhledazzle]

WOW

Much better (thankfully) than the Daewoo.

I can't think of anything bad to say except that I'm not liking the chrome strip too much..the back should just have..LED taillights or..something.? I'm not sure.

[CSpec]

there is nothing about the appointment, design, or materials in this car that would keep this car from being made and sold in the US for starting price low 30's.

You're nuts; have you looked at the list of features?

[regfootball]

You're nuts; have you looked at the list of features?

massage seats. woo hoo, that's not 20 grand.

[monaroCountry]

I just want one and I would pay 45K for one not anymore than 50.

This is one of the reason why Americans wont get this car. You expect all the features present in a $70+k BMW/Lexus, with handling better than the BMW and far better than Lexus, chassis balance better again than both, and are only willing to pay for $45k? Your dreaming, Holden can look for other customers willing to pay for their cars/CKD units at a reasonable price - in this case Buick China.

The car basically gets designed by Holden shipped and assembled in China. Its a win win for both countries.....................sorry America your not part of it.

[regfootball]

anything in volume and cost can be lowered.

SRT8, phenomal car comparable to this park avenue that is selling for less than 40k across much of the country.

park's engines are all low tech engines being used in many other gm car lines.

zetas have cheaper chassis than sigmas. many new CTS and STS are advertised in the low to mid thirties.

Edited April 12, 2007 by regfootball

[gm4life]

Maybe I would spend 50... They are super nice!

Edited April 12, 2007 by gm4life

[Northstar]

There's no way this Park Ave would cost mid 30's. Definitely over $40k. The G8 is going to be mid 30s with the V8 (which is what most of us would want in the Park Ave, I think) and it doesn't have NAV, massaging seats, all the wood and other luxurious appointments, etc. That adds at least $7-8k, I think. Plus it's bigger to begin with. There no way this would come in under $40k with everything it has. De-content it and you might have a base price around $32k.I think it's very apparent that this would be above the Lucerne, and that goes up to $41k loaded up, and doesn't have massaging seats and doesn't look nearly as nice as the rest of the Park Ave.

The model you see in the pictures is a $45k car at least, no doubt. It has more features, a nicer interior, and is on a more expensive platform than the DTS, which goes up to $55k.

This car pictured for $35k is a pipe dream.

[thegriffon]

"Parks" engines are the latest GM high-feature V6, and it's a much bigger car than a 300, or an STS. Don't forget that Zeta had to go back to the drawing board to meet GM NA's cost requirements, probably for the very reason you fail to believe. The VE perhaps should be cheaper. It is not. Outside the US the WM doesn't need to be cheaper. A fwd 3.8 L Hyundai Equus starts at $US61,081 in Korea (the 4.5 L V8 is over $US82K), a 3.6 L Ssangyong Chairman 700S $US61,296. Even the 3.2 L Chairman is priced at $US48,670 in Australia. The cheapest rwd car in the US market close to the Park Avenue is the V8 LS460L, at over $US70K.

[Robert Hall]

The problem I see with a $45-50k or more Buick in NA is no matter how good it is (and this car seems like it would make an excellent NA Park Avenue, with a few styling changes like portholes and horizontal Buick taillights), is at that price point it would be squarely in Cadillac STS and DTS territory.

Is the American consumer willing to pay Cadillac prices for a Buick?

[thegriffon]

American consumers are so far unwilling to pay Buick prices for a Buick, which is why the PA died in the first place.

[Northstar]

"Parks" engines are the latest GM high-feature V6, and it's a much bigger car than a 300, or an STS. Don't forget that Zeta had to go back to the drawing board to meet GM NA's cost requirements, probably for the very reason you fail to believe. The VE perhaps should be cheaper. It is not. Outside the US the WM doesn't need to be cheaper. A fwd 3.8 L Hyundai Equus starts at $US61,081 in Korea (the 4.5 L V8 is over $US82K), a 3.6 L Ssangyong Chairman 700S $US61,296. Even the 3.2 L Chairman is priced at $US48,670 in Australia. The cheapest rwd car in the US market close to the Park Avenue is the V8 LS460L, at over $US70K.

I don't remember exactly, but wasn't the GTO something like $50k US when converted from AU to US dollars?

[MRDETROITMETAL]

Thats IT...I am Moving to CHINA !!!

[InvictaMan]

Wow, go away for a while and look what pops up. Very nice! This is exactly what Buick needs if it is going to compete with Lexus, Acura, Infinity. I would put that interior, especially the back seat, up against M-B any day. And I'm in agreement on the exterior. It is hot, just add the Buick ports and Enclave rear. It would also be nice to see a variation from the standard Holden headlight pod. Make it more Enclave so that it won't look like every other WM out there.

Just makes one wonder.... why on Earth would Buick dealers, who are crying for business, tell GM they were not interested in this car. When you put Lucerne where it belongs, as a LeSabre replacement, this is the perfect flagship. It would not even be in the same price range, so how could they even be concerned about canabalism. I'd rather have this as my draw and make the profit off of it, and then position my sales staff to sell Lucernes to those who come to admire, but don't have the means. Is there anyone in the marketing department at Buick? Hello? I hope GM has a surprise in order for us with Buick over the next couple years. If these are the models we will be getting, Buick really could become a competitor. Once again though, I don't see these models sitting at a mid-range dealership. They need real credibility.

B-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l !

Edited April 12, 2007 by InvictaMan

[InvictaMan]

The problem I see with a $45-50k or more Buick in NA is no matter how good it is (and this car seems like it would make an excellent NA Park Avenue, with a few styling changes like portholes and horizontal Buick taillights), is at that price point it would be squarely in Cadillac STS and DTS territory.

Is the American consumer willing to pay Cadillac prices for a Buick?

Hey, if the style and the quality are there, sure they would. GM has to get over this competition thing with Cadillac. It simply falls to a matter of taste. Do you like hard edges or smooth curves? Buick has to reinvent themselves to survive, and based on what I hear is their target market, they are going to have to tip-toe into sacred Cadillac territory. Cadillac has always been an over-priced and blinged-out Buick and vice-versa. Cadillac is more for the starches and Buick more for the style-seekers. GM just put Caddy on the front burner for revamping. Now it's Buick's turn.

Just burns my soul to see GM make this effort in China and not here in America, their birthplace and home market.

[RBB]

Not a projection reg. That's the price, given by GM China in the release. An Australian-built 3.6 L Statesman without all the extra kit is still $US 48,600 and a Caprice $US 54,370 so all that extra equipment in the PA is quite a bargain (it is quite a bit cheaper than the imported Royaum).

Aren't prices for imported cars in China artificially high because of import tarrifs? If I remember correctly, the CTS was over $60K when first imported into China.

I'm not saying the Buick would be economically feasible here - I don't have the knowledge to make that assertion. But saying it's $50K in China so it's too expensive to sell as a Buick here seems to me to be an apples-to-oranges comparison - especially if it could be built in NA at the Camaro plant instead of in AUS.

That said, if it's too expensive to work as a Buick, how about as a next-gen DTS?

-RBB

[thegriffon]

The PA is not imported—it's made in China, and priced not much more than the Statesman built and sold in Australia with far less equipment. Of course GM is probably making more money than it does on the Lucerne, but another $5K in profit still leaves you with a $45K Buick unless you decontent it as you all complain GM has done to the Lucerne. You can't have it both ways. Shipping it across the Pacific will also add to the cost (not to mention the added greenhouse gases and exotic parisites carried by the transport ships—save the environment—don't buy imported products).

[RBB]

The PA is not imported—it's made in China, and priced not much more than the Statesman built and sold in Australia with far less equipment. Of course GM is probably making more money than it does on the Lucerne, but another $5K in profit still leaves you with a $45K Buick unless you decontent it as you all complain GM has done to the Lucerne. You can't have it both ways. Shipping it across the Pacific will also add to the cost (not to mention the added greenhouse gases and exotic parisites carried by the transport ships—save the environment—don't buy imported products).

I see. Thanks.

What about building it in NA?

-RBB

[BuddyP]

It's really... REALLY sad when China get's a car form a US automaker that looks 10 times better than what it currently produces in the US.

[gm4life]

Buddy yes it is. I am still drooling over it.

[VenSeattle]

I'd just like to point out that a fully loaded 2005 Buick Park Avenue Ultra with far fewer features topped out at $44k. This new Chinese Park Avenue is far superior and worth more than a $1k price premium.

However, in order to justify a somewhat decontented $43k base Park Avenue and a $50k loaded Park Avenue, GM will need a strong mid-sedan to bridge the gap between the Epsilon II LaCrosse and Flagship Park Avenue (even if the LaCrosse is from $28k-$37k.) Buick doesn't need to make the same mistake that Acura has... huge gap between the TL & RL. Buick needs a sporty mid-size (or even large compact) sedan spanning $35k-$45k. A SWB Zeta would work perfectly(but Pontiac is getting that.) My vote is for a FWD/AWD next-gen Lucerne on a Lambda-derived platform. That would work too. It would help expand the Lambda platform's flexibility and assist in providing production options in the US. The Lambda-based Lucerne would stay V6/V8 and remain the volume premium Buick, while the Park Avenue could be imported in lower numbers as a flagship.

Honestly, Buick isn't about volume, but about building GM's reputation as a premium manufacturer and Buick's market presence. The Park Avenue can help do that, but the line-up has to be appealing, not just one or two vehicles.

[pow]

So a direct-injected, Sigma-based, SLA/multilink suspended, hand-stitched, AWD-available, US-labored, six-speed Cadillac CTS costs less than this thing (a non-DI, front-strut suspended, hard-plastic, RWD-only, Chinese-assembled, five-speed)? Those are some pricey seat vibrators.

Chinese-made 530i sedans are $72,252, which is a lot more than the $46,500 here in the US. And it's not like BMW is going bankrupt in the US market.

[thegriffon]

No, but VW lost $1billion trying to sell W8 Passats and Phaetons. Beside which, it's a Chinese-made 530Li.

[PrimeGTP]

Would make an incredible Buick flagship, I don't understand why GM insists on slowly killing themselves in their home market.

[ocnblu]

I like the greenhouse on this LWB VM, but the sides are nondescript and the rear is too generic. The front is Buick in grille only. The interior is a knockout, however. I know GM (among other manufacturers) made a commitment a few years ago to improve their interiors... but is it to the point that the exteriors get no money spent on them? Maybe I'm old-school, but branding is still important to me.

I love RWD as much as the next guy... but I prefer the Lucerne exterior to this.

This whole "VE/VM Heard Round the World" approach makes me think GM's true, long range mission is to eliminate all of their proud brands and just keep the little "GM" logo on the door or fender as an identifier.

Edited April 15, 2007 by ocnblu

[VenSeattle]

This whole "VE/VM Heard Round the World" approach makes me think GM's true, long range mission is to eliminate all of their proud brands and just keep the little "GM" logo on the door or fender as an identifier.

All of the versions aren't being sold in the same market side by side. This is a good way for GM to remain competitive while building brand direction in new markets. I see nothing wrong with the Saturn Sky in the US, Opel GT in Europe, and the Daewoo G2X in South Korea. It's a good use of resources.

[ponchoman49]

The interior I will agree is light years better than todays Buick offerings. But the exterior! I don't see how it is so much better than what we have now expect maybe the headlights look nicer than the LaCrosse. From the pillar back it is just a holden clone with no Buick styling cues whatsoever, not even port holes, bodyside moldings or wheel flares. Exterior wise this is just not a Buick to me. It could pass for the foreign car that it is. The underpinnings are surely impressive and it would be awesome having a RWD full sized Buick with a tire sdredding V8 back in the loop but it needs to look more like a Buick. Are todays designers so clueless as to take a 90's design, decontent the door trim and character curves and lines and call it modern and all new. It seems that todays generation is so used to boring dull Asian styling that anything goes!

[Oracle of Delphi]

This whole "VE/VM Heard Round the World" approach makes me think GM's true, long range mission is to eliminate all of their proud brands and just keep the little "GM" logo on the door or fender as an identifier.

Shhhhhhhhhh! Don't let the secret out!

Edited April 16, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S