GM RWD on hold?!

[haypops]

I thought water vapor and ocean temperature had a bigger effect on global warming and cooling than CO2?

Increased water vapor doesn't raise CO2 levels, but increased CO2 levels do increase water vapor levels.

[bowtie_dude]

If the problem is with the sun itself, we may as well punt.

If it turns out that the majority reason for the observed temperature changes is natural, then there isn't a problem. :AH-HA_wink:

[regfootball]

No one is denying the existence of natural climate cycles. It's just that they occur in 100,000-year frequencies, not 50. A degree Celcius every five years is comparatively huge and unprecedented.

because you were at the weather station 10,000 years ago as a comparison

[haypops]

If it turns out that the majority reason for the observed temperature changes is natural, then there isn't a problem. :AH-HA_wink:

It isn't; please look into the c13, c12 ratios.

[bowtie_dude]

It isn't; please look into the c13, c12 ratios.

If higher CO2 concentration were the major cause of global temperature increase, it would stand to reason that the Southern Hemisphere, which has the SAME CO2 levels as the Northern, would be warming nearly or just as much as the Northern. But its not. In fact its only warming at 1/4 the rate of the Northern Hemisphere.

So with that in mind, how can CO2 concentrations be a major cause of global warming if, despite identical CO2 concentration throughout, the globe isn't warming uniformly? Seems to me like the major cause is something else.

Take a look at solar activity vs temperature of arctic regions, they almost match. A simple google search should get you those graphs from any number of websites.

Edited April 12, 2007 by bowtie_dude

[bowtie_dude]

Also, I'm not denying that humans have no effect on global climate, only that the effect is not a major contributing factor.

[Camino LS6]

What we ought to be doing is planting trees, by the millions,worldwide.

[ellives]

What we ought to be doing is planting trees, by the millions,worldwide.

I have plenty of trees on my property and you freakin' skeptics aren't getting ANY of them when the world goes to hell in a handbasket.

[bowtie_dude]

What we ought to be doing is planting trees, by the millions,worldwide.

If you don't mind ushering in a new ice age, sure!

[pow]

Not its not. On top of MAJOR and extreme climate changes that occur every 100,000 years, there are periods of less extreme, but noticable climate change, in one direction or the other. Its commonly accepted that through much of the middle ages, the Earth was in a period of warmth, then immediately following and for the next few centuries the Earth went into a mini ice age, which only just ended during the 19th century.

Only if you're talking fractions of degrees. Between 1000 and 1900, mean global temperature change never exceeded +/- 0.5C, even including the "little" ice age. Our current exponential path of temperature increase (in such a short amount of time) is far greater than anything pre-industrialization.

[pow]

Also, I'm not denying that humans have no effect on global climate, only that the effect is not a major contributing factor.

Agreed. There's are other factors (solar output, ~25%; albedo; oceans; air pollution, etc). It's just that CO2 is the easiest one to control.

[regfootball]

What we ought to be doing is planting trees, by the millions,worldwide.

YES!

re: this supposed excess temperature spiking......

any of you folks ever watch an NBA game? You ever see the part when a team goes on a 14-2 run?

Even see the part when a team get's outscored on a run 15-3?

we ought to blow up all volcanoes with nuclear warheads because they produce serious amounts of CO2.

Edited April 12, 2007 by regfootball

[bowtie_dude]

Only if you're talking fractions of degrees. Between 1000 and 1900, mean global temperature change never exceeded +/- 0.5C, even including the "little" ice age. Our current exponential path of temperature increase (in such a short amount of time) is far greater than anything pre-industrialization.

The current temperature increase that started in the 90s also coincided with the closing of several arctic and former soviet union weather reporting stations. So the average global temperature is artificially high because we lost many stations that reported low temperatures.

[thegriffon]

The current temperature increase that started in the 90s also coincided with the closing of several arctic and former soviet union weather reporting stations. So the average global temperature is artificially high because we lost many stations that reported low temperatures.

:rotflmao:

Volcanoes also send dust high into the atmosphere, blocking sunlight and resulting in lower temperatures. The "little iceage" dropped temperatures by far more than 0.5 a degree, which followed a prolonged warm period. A drop in temperature of 0.5 degrees doesn't allow a tidal estuary like the Thames in London to freeze over every year for hundreds of years. Exact temperature change is hard to assess, since there are no accurate records anywhere going back much more than 100 years. Climatologists have to guess past temperatures based on things such as the coming of spring and autumn (winter occurs later, spring earlier now), pollen records, growth cycles recorded in tree rings etc. Long term effects are hard to predict and may not be so bad for everyone. Britain can already grow grapes again, something not possible since the Roman occupation. Growing seasons are lengthened in northern latitudes. On the other hand ski resorts are hit hard with shorter seasons, and winter coat manufacturers and sellers take a beating. Some desert areas may get more rain as oceans warm. Other areas may lose rain.

Will sea levels rise? Maybe, but sea levels have been rising steadily since the last ice age, and we haven't yet seen any acceleration. You also have to take into account subsidence, compaction of sediment, tectonic action and in some areas such as Hudson Bay and the Baltic (slowly draining into the Atlantic as the sea floor rises), the slow rise of sea beds created by the weight of long-gone ice sheets. Melting ice in the Arctic and Antarctic will not have much effect—most of it is already floating in the water already, or resting on land well below sea level.

The media say stupid things, such as attributing record temeratures to global warming, however "hottest day in 70 years" implies it was just as warm 70 years ago. Extremes are irrelevent and may not change much, since they are due to short-term weather patterns, not climate. Median temperatures in spring and autumn will change most.

Blaming global warming for the loss of low-lying islands in the Bay of Bengal and other areas is also stupid. These islands are (or would be) still above sea level, as much as they were when people settled them in the last 200 years. What has caused their destruction is not rising seas, but erosion. Loss of the mangroves, and several big storms have not flooded them, but washed them away like sand castles on the beach.

Surprisingly small local actions can have a bigger effect on climate than global warming. Deforestation, water management, the diversion of rivers (natural or human) can all have big impacts on local climate. Tree-planting in Niger has reversed desertification in the last 10 years. Just imagine what would happen to the climate in North America if all the rivers draining into the Great Lakes were diverted for irrigation and drainined into the Mississippi instead? In the USSR, that's exactly what they did to the Aral Sea, and the smaller Aral sea has almost completely vanished. A large trapped body of water like that has a big impact on the local climate, moderating temperatures and providing a continual source of moisture for rain clouds.

[bowtie_dude]

Are you laughing with me or at me, griffon?

Your posts suggests WITH me, but I just wanted to be sure.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I think the problem is to many people Farting, you know who you are! You are producing large concentrations of Methane gas.

Methane is a relatively potent greenhouse gas with a global warming potential. When averaged over 100 years each kg of CH4 warms the Earth 23 times as much as the same mass of CO2, however there is approximately 220 times as much CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere as methane.

The top map shows where the main Farters are!

The bottom map shows where the Fart smell is hanging around warming up the earth at the equator.

To cure this, try not to Fart! :rotflmao:

Edited April 12, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[bowtie_dude]

Haha, Custom-S. The big problem about flatulence isn't HUMAN flatulence but BOVINE flatulence. :rotflmao:

Edited April 12, 2007 by bowtie_dude

[bowtie_dude]

Methane is a very potent greenhouse gas, but as you said, there's not nearly as much of it as there is CO2 or as there was millions of years ago. Methane was actually the ORIGINAL greenhouse gas before life and, more specifically, plant life took hold. The first great ice age, where the entire planet froze into a solid chunk of ice (I'm not kidding), was caused when oxygen-producing bacteria in the ocean outpaced methane-producing bacteria. Oxygen, as it turns out, is a very lousy greenhouse gas, and the planet froze solid for a few thousand years.

[prototype66]

1 The planets tem change is cyclical caused not by rotation but the wobble of the earths poles and gradually gets larger by the century (sourse; The science channel)and Http://amsforums.ametsoc.org/tool/post/ams...post?id=1209732

2 weathermen from 150 years ago were just farmers sticking their heard out the window. We've barely done a decent job in these passed 10 years. Who will you ask that was around 150 years ago befory they even recorded weather reports.

Edited April 12, 2007 by prototype66

[prototype66]

I mean come on , they grabbed the nutsack on a hog and said "yep, It's a might cold out today."

[FAPTurbo]

I mean come on , they grabbed the nutsack on a hog and said "yep, It's a might cold out today."

It sucks that you Americans have to guess the weather. Up here in the Great White North, it's the same all day!

Which reminds me... My igloo could use a renovation, and we just got 100 inches!

[97regalGS]

what happend to the gold ole days when a thread like this that got all stupid and off topic would be locked?

[bowtie_dude]

what happend to the gold ole days when a thread like this that got all stupid and off topic would be locked?

I think we're having a fantastic, mature discussion. Sure, its no longer about GMs RWD program, but still, nothing wrong with a little thread hijacking.

[ehaase]

As sceptical as I am about global warming, many, including most politicians believe this, and I would not be surprised if the average car sold in 2015 would be the size of a Cobalt with a 1.5L hybrid motor. We wouldn't suffer having to drive such vehicles, but it sure wouldn't be fun.

[bowtie_dude]

I honestly don't think it would stand for very long. Despite the greenies and liberals on TV, the vast majority of Americans like to have choices and not have the government force them, by way of taxation or otherwise, to choose. Prohibition didn't work, I don't think this will either.

[Z-06]

I honestly don't think it would stand for very long. Despite the greenies and liberals on TV, the vast majority of Americans like to have choices and not have the government force them, by way of taxation or otherwise, to choose. Prohibition didn't work, I don't think this will either.

I agree with you. It was not the Manufacturers who made people buy the SUV's, it was the people who pushed the manufacturer's to build SUV's so that they could buy them. Right now the politician's are pushing the manufacturers as well as people to build and buy those tiny gizmo's just like the early part of the 70's when the sky high fuel prices were a concern; once the influence wears off people will come back to the original. I guess Auto industry is becoming in-sync with the universe; i.e. to run in cycles.

[Ghost Dog]

Holy crap! They don't have the resources to keep changing course. Not just platforms, it effects powertrains.

Lutz has had a bad attitude about Fuel Economy for awhile. I still remember reading his off the Cuff remark in 04. " If you want better fuel economy, make gas 3 dollars a Gallon." After gearing everything towards muscle, turning it around will be a 2 year disadvantage.

[hyperv6]

It is important that all here read and learn as much on Global warming as possible. The best defense is a good offense.

There is a big power play here in the world and this really is WWIII only it is being fought with money.

If you read up on this some of the GW folks are even preaching against cattle farming and would like to take you 16 oz T bone away just as much as your Corvette.

The fact is many of these people are not presenting all the fact and giveing correct information. It inportant not to be some boob that just does not pay attention on this topic. Most of the people can't name their state congressman but they can tell you who got kicked off American Idol last night.

The general public as a whole has become so ignorent that the old Gobbles saying that if you say it long enough and loud enough people will think it is true.

As of now the RWD programs are not canceled and very well will not be cancled so untill you hear any different don't get to bent out of shape. On the other hand it is time to learn as much as you can on all sides of this GW debate and once informed you and corperate America will be better off dealing with this power/money grab.

If anything we all had better get a handle on this before the unlearned mass votes in the people into office that could change things that could cancel the RWD plans.

The first question to ask any of our GW supporters is what is normal weather. They will try to sell you on data that is not long reaching as the earth has been in flux for many many years and there really is no norm. They want you to believe in evolution but they don't want you to believe the earth itself evolves.

Most reashearch being done is not on equal terms and everyones ruler does not have 12 inches for every foot.

This whole debate goes back to there are lies, damn lies and there are statistics. You can make number mean anything you want if you tweek them enough.

So please fight back and learn as much on this as you can as it is the only way to defeat this GW power grab.

How many remember the world was going into the ice age in the 80's on the last theory?

[haypops]

As sceptical as I am about global warming, many, including most politicians believe this, and I would not be surprised if the average car sold in 2015 would be the size of a Cobalt with a 1.5L hybrid motor. We wouldn't suffer having to drive such vehicles, but it sure wouldn't be fun.

It will be interesting to see. I wager that we will have longer narrower vehicles employing more aluminum, composite and other light weight materials, decreased frontal area, thinner windows, and kinetic/diesel hybrid powerplants with sequential or 6 speed automatic transmissions.

An oldie but a goodie not necessarily indicative of the future.

[haypops]

scroll down to hydraulic hybrid

Hydraulic Hybrid. Also on display at the meeting will be a Peterbilt Model 320 featuring Hydraulic Launch Assist hybrid technology. (Earlier post.) The Class 8 vehicle is specifically designed for refuse applications and uses its kinetic energy to conserve fuel and assist in acceleration.

The Hydraulic Launch Assist technology was also developed in partnership with Eaton. The system is particularly beneficial in heavy stop-and-go applications, such as refuse collection. In addition to the enhanced fuel economy, brake wear can be reduced by more than 50 percent, improving serviceability requirements and reducing operating expenses.

Hydraulic Launch Assist works by recovering a portion of the energy normally lost as heat by the vehicle’s brakes in the form of pressurized hydraulic fluid. This fluid is stored in an on-board accumulator until the driver next accelerates the vehicle.

Stored energy launches the vehicle during the initial, high-fuel consumption start from stop, followed seamlessly by power from the primary engine. In performance mode, the stored energy is released and blended with engine power at launch. This can significantly improve acceleration due to the high power density of hydraulics.

November 10, 2006 in Hybrids | Permalink | Comments (9) | TrackBack

[gm4life]

I hope not they need some new RWD stuff to get excited about and just to crank out Aura's, G6's and the new Malibu's like nuts.

[Ghost Dog]

scroll down to hydraulic hybrid

Hydraulic Hybrid. Also on display at the meeting will be a Peterbilt Model 320 featuring Hydraulic Launch Assist hybrid technology. (Earlier post.) The Class 8 vehicle is specifically designed for refuse applications and uses its kinetic energy to conserve fuel and assist in acceleration.

The Hydraulic Launch Assist technology was also developed in partnership with Eaton. The system is particularly beneficial in heavy stop-and-go applications, such as refuse collection. In addition to the enhanced fuel economy, brake wear can be reduced by more than 50 percent, improving serviceability requirements and reducing operating expenses.

Hydraulic Launch Assist works by recovering a portion of the energy normally lost as heat by the vehicle’s brakes in the form of pressurized hydraulic fluid. This fluid is stored in an on-board accumulator until the driver next accelerates the vehicle.

Stored energy launches the vehicle during the initial, high-fuel consumption start from stop, followed seamlessly by power from the primary engine. In performance mode, the stored energy is released and blended with engine power at launch. This can significantly improve acceleration due to the high power density of hydraulics.

November 10, 2006 in Hybrids | Permalink | Comments (9) | TrackBack

GM has been on record trashing the Hydraulic hybrid system as "Noisey" and "Prone To Leaks".

[regfootball]

I honestly don't think it would stand for very long. Despite the greenies and liberals on TV, the vast majority of Americans like to have choices and not have the government force them, by way of taxation or otherwise, to choose. Prohibition didn't work, I don't think this will either.

true.....but we would have to endure a ten year period where they get a bunch of dumb laws passed and we'd all be driving corollas as luxury cars and max hp would be 150.

It's like pro sports. cleveland browns, MN north stars.......you lose them (larger, high hp cars) and then you end up paying twice as much to get them back once everyone laments losing them in the first place.

[regfootball]

It is important that all here read and learn as much on Global warming as possible. The best defense is a good offense.

There is a big power play here in the world and this really is WWIII only it is being fought with money.

If you read up on this some of the GW folks are even preaching against cattle farming and would like to take you 16 oz T bone away just as much as your Corvette.

The fact is many of these people are not presenting all the fact and giveing correct information. It inportant not to be some boob that just does not pay attention on this topic. Most of the people can't name their state congressman but they can tell you who got kicked off American Idol last night.

The general public as a whole has become so ignorent that the old Gobbles saying that if you say it long enough and loud enough people will think it is true.

As of now the RWD programs are not canceled and very well will not be cancled so untill you hear any different don't get to bent out of shape. On the other hand it is time to learn as much as you can on all sides of this GW debate and once informed you and corperate America will be better off dealing with this power/money grab.

If anything we all had better get a handle on this before the unlearned mass votes in the people into office that could change things that could cancel the RWD plans.

The first question to ask any of our GW supporters is what is normal weather. They will try to sell you on data that is not long reaching as the earth has been in flux for many many years and there really is no norm. They want you to believe in evolution but they don't want you to believe the earth itself evolves.

Most reashearch being done is not on equal terms and everyones ruler does not have 12 inches for every foot.

This whole debate goes back to there are lies, damn lies and there are statistics. You can make number mean anything you want if you tweek them enough.

So please fight back and learn as much on this as you can as it is the only way to defeat this GW power grab.

How many remember the world was going into the ice age in the 80's on the last theory?

awesome post!

[Chicagoland]

If The 'govment' raises CAFE, people will just buy whatever is classifed as a 'truck'. And say bye bye to any large RWD sedan. Camaro will still come, but no 'New Chevelle" or "Roadmasters".

Anyone who really thought GM was 'switching back to all RWD' was living in a fantasy world.

[haypops]

GM has been on record trashing the Hydraulic hybrid system as "Noisey" and "Prone To Leaks".

There is also a UPS delivery truck designed with this too. It may require development or we may all have to learn with some new noises. Certainly the thinner windows will lead to more noise also.

[Oracle of Delphi]

So let's abandon Holden and see what Opel has to offer us instead.

[Camino LS6]

If this doomsday ever comes to pass (and I don't think it will) I'll just drive what I have. I have enough vehicles to last me quite a while.

I won't buy some little tin can because Big Brother thinks I should.

Lucky for me ,I like old cars. So if the fools in DC kill the auto industry, I'll just drive My 30 year-old cars around making as much noise as possible. Even if I have to convert them to some other fuel.

Don't mess with me on this, oh all powerful feds, I'll get even!

[76ChevyTrucker]

Yeah, I still am looking for a '73-'91 Suburban that I could do some customization work to like my truck and use as a daily driver. How about just let me drive what the hell I wanna drive. If it gets 8 miles per gallon, it gets 8 miles per gallon and I pay for it, just like if it gets 80 miles per gallon, I still pay for the thing. Its my CHOICE! As far as the weather thing. Its weather, the man upstairs (you guys know what I mean), created it. We can't predict it, and we can't exactly control it, so lets just stop f@#king trying.

[carman21]

E85 Ladies and Gents. Yes, E85. Lower CO2 output and no current standards for fuel economy.

We just need a greater supply to meet the potential demand.

Answer:

Deregulate the agrictural industry. As crop prices drop corporate farmers will be forced to turn to ethanol production to make a profit. E85 will get so cheap that demand will e forced to increase.

As E85 increases in popularity, its lower price will force oil to compete resulting in both cheaper E85 and cheaper G85(conventional grade gasoline).

Ultimately, V-8 powered cars will become the hottest segment. I'm talking E85 or G85 at less than $0.50 per gallon excluding taxes.

The fact is nobody is currently willing or thinking of doing this anytime soon. May be Guiliani.

Only Eco-Capitalism will solve our enviromental problems.

Eco-socialism has failed us and the working man again and again.

Halogen bulbs have enough mercury in them to kill most dogs a nd children if eatened or breathed in.

Plastic bags now cause more pollution than any other object that we depose of on a regular basis.

Hybrids as they age will cause massive polltuion as their batteries decay and are disposed of. Even recycling prodced toxic air pollution. In fact more pollution than a conventional car produces in its lifetime.

In other words, a 1982 Cavalier is better than a 2007 Prius for the enviroment.

As for Zetas, they will be built, GM just willl need more economy cars to balance things out.

[hyperv6]

If this doomsday ever comes to pass (and I don't think it will) I'll just drive what I have. I have enough vehicles to last me quite a while.

I won't buy some little tin can because Big Brother thinks I should.

Lucky for me ,I like old cars. So if the fools in DC kill the auto industry, I'll just drive My 30 year-old cars around making as much noise as possible. Even if I have to convert them to some other fuel.

Don't mess with me on this, oh all powerful feds, I'll get even!

Think agian as these Eviro"mental" people will see that all old cars and truck Will be forced off the road including Classic and show cars. Next they will try to force the end of other gas powered engines. They will not care what is powering it as it is seen as a threat to there vision of the future.

Keeping your old car most likley will not be an option to keep or even drive no matter the fuel. In some countries the tax goes up the longer you keep your car till it becomes cheaper to buy a new car.

The want to change so much in your life. The way you drive, the place you work, they way you eat, etc. This is the real 1984 and it is just late.

I know much of it will not come to pass right away but if only they get 25% of what they want thing will be effected in a very negitive way for all that love and depend on cars.

Ever notice the eviro"mental" people are the same one who support gun laws? At least we know they are affraid of the mainstream pmce they wake up

These are the same people that will not let you drive your modified car in California if you have changed parts on it. This is even if the tail pipe levels are lower than factory and improved milage? So even if you improve your emissions you still can't drive the car because you tampered with it! That is what your dealing with. This is going on today with CARB in California.

Edited April 13, 2007 by hyperv6

[ehaase]

If The 'govment' raises CAFE, people will just buy whatever is classifed as a 'truck'.

Truck CAFE will probably be increased as well. I think full size truck sales will be a fraction of what they are now, mostly diesel powered heavy duty trucks for those who really need them for business purposes. Full size SUV's will become very exclusive, low volume vehicles. Even larger crossovers like the Lambdas, which are quite heavy, could be in danger.

I don't think that using corn ethanol is an answer. According to page 102 of this month's MT., growing irrigated corn to produce one gallon of ethanol requires over 900 gallons of water. The experts say that a better solution is cellulosic ethanol.

Edited April 13, 2007 by ehaase

[Camino LS6]

Think agian as these Eviro"mental" people will see that all old cars and truck Will be forced off the road including Classic and show cars. Next they will try to force the end of other gas powered engines. They will not care what is powering it as it is seen as a threat to there vision of the future.

Keeping your old car most likley will not be an option to keep or even drive no matter the fuel. In some countries the tax goes up the longer you keep your car till it becomes cheaper to buy a new car.

The want to change so much in your life. The way you drive, the place you work, they way you eat, etc. This is the real 1984 and it is just late.

I know much of it will not come to pass right away but if only they get 25% of what they want thing will be effected in a very negitive way for all that love and depend on cars.

Ever notice the eviro"mental" people are the same one who support gun laws? At least we know they are affraid of the mainstream pmce they wake up

These are the same people that will not let you drive your modified car in California if you have changed parts on it. This is even if the tail pipe levels are lower than factory and improved milage? So even if you improve your emissions you still can't drive the car because you tampered with it! That is what your dealing with. This is going on today with CARB in California.

That's one of the main reasons that I will never live in California their laws and regs make the state undesirable.

As for the rest of it, the powers that be have nearly pushed too hard already and they run the risk of being ignored by the population.

to co-opt an old slogan:

"You will take my car when you pry my cold,dead hands from the wheel."

If these fools go after my old cars, I simply will not comply.

That's what they are up against.

And I intend to make it as difficult for them as possible.

[Ghost Dog]

The Saab Bio Power Hybrid(Both Versions), And The Astra Hybrid showed the Vision Needed. I Think raising cafe is okay. But I would like a DOE/EPA run Fund to Bring advanced Technologies to market. An Automaker would go to the Fund Board present a case for an advanced Technologie. The Board would examine the Merits, and either approve or reject a grant.

Its a Win Win. Creates jobs,Brings advanced technologie to market, lowers Fuel consumption,and Guides Automakers in a positive direction.

However since the People would be funding a Large chunk. Markups should by law be minimal. All said Technologies would have to be built and sold here.

[gmcbob]

Is anyone sure what is going to happen to the Sigma platform now that Lutz has said future rwd models are "on hold"? It doesn't appear that the CTS is going to be stopped or canceled for 2008, but does this ultimately mean that the entire Caddy lineup will be going back to fwd? If that's the case, then you can kiss Caddy goodbye - it was RWD vehicles like the CTS, SRX and 2005 and up STS that has actually made them viable luxury/performance cars again. I can see keeping the Impala fwd and just having the Camaro and the G8 as your "mainstream" rwd models, but if GM killed the Caddy Sigma platform, that would be absolutely INSANE! And I mean insane in the worst way.

[SS427]

Or the enviro-freaks could get off our f@#king backs and let us drive what we want.

Ya its to bad a whole bunch of them just took over Congress and Senate back in November.

[ellives]

That's one of the main reasons that I will never live in California their laws and regs make the state undesirable.

As for the rest of it, the powers that be have nearly pushed too hard already and they run the risk of being ignored by the population.

to co-opt an old slogan:

"You will take my car when you pry my cold,dead hands from the wheel."

If these fools go after my old cars, I simply will not comply.

That's what they are up against.

And I intend to make it as difficult for them as possible.

I think that expression referred to a gun and not a car. (Charlton Heston anyone?)

[Sixty8panther]

If this comes to pass, all hope is lost.

Yeah, if this comes to pass I'll just NEVER buy a new GM car again.

(5th gen. Camaro excluded) Not such a bad thing, now that I have

my 1959 Buick I'd love a SECOND 1959 something. Perhaps a 4dr

flattop Invicta or maybe a Pontiac hardtop.

I'm seriously thinking about saving my pennies this summer &

buying that 1961 Cadillac Fleetwood that is rotting in the junkyard.

A four door hardtop project 1961 Cadillac would be a fantastic

replacement for my STS. I wanna own a REAL Cadillac.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Sixty8panther

[Chicagoland]

To clarify about selling more 'trucks'.

GM could sell more mid size and comapct crossovers to people who want the room, even if CAFE for trucks goes up. They would just have to sell less BOF ones.

With a 34MPG car CAFE, there is no way they can offer a 'full line' of RWD sedans, with 16-20 mpg ratings. Only the Caddys and Camaro could survive, and the rest would have to be hybrid-ized or FWD compacts.

And no way is E85 going to sell for "50 cents"!!!

Edited April 14, 2007 by Chicagoland

[gm4life]

Here is what we need RWD, Buick (Park Avenue), Buick (GNX sports coupe type vehicle with a 3.6L DI Twin Turbo V6) Cadillac CTS and STS/SLS, Pontiac G8, Chevy Impala, Chevy Camaro, Pontiac GTO/Firebird/T/A and that is all in addition to what current models we have that I have forgot (Solstice, SKY, Vette etc.) The DTS and Lucerne should stay FWD! Along with the G6! That is my vote I never hoped GM would go RWD over-board I always wanted a few being the Lucerne and DTS FWD large sedans. I think they could do it this way so long as they get working on updated DTS/Lucerne frame and design. Just import the Park Avenue and G8. Build the Camaro and Impala at Oshawa along with the next GTO/Firebird/T/A and then build the sports Buick there also. That makes sense to me. RWD is growing on me just not for everything.