Bob Lutz Explains Why The Pontiac GTO Failed

[hyperv6]

When are some going to understand some of the most popular cars are not the most radical designs?

BMW styling got a little to the edge with Chris Bangles designs and many BMW fans rejected them. Even the BMW leaders made him tone them down due to there dislike. He was promoted to get him out of the way. If you note the new designs just starting to show up are modern but going back to a more traditional look.

Camry's are plain, Nissans are plain looking helmets, Hondas look like old Saturns, Mercedes are hit or miss on the styling, VW is plain, Lexus looks like a Mercedes, Audi looks looks like a fance VW. Only the itallian designs look very good and that is only on some of their car. The fact is most people want a taseful car and all do not want a circus wagon.

The G8 is as good or better than most cars on the market. If you push it like Cadillac it is either love hate and Pontiac is not in a place they need to push it yet. Beside the only G8 any one has seen is a base model or GT which are not the fancy ones. The G8 is coming and will pack some cues that will spice it up more.

As of now all the Pontiac we have I agree the GTO, G8 and Solstice are the only ones worth keeping.

The G6, G5 and GP are just good rental fleet fodder. If you want to be taken seriously in the class Pontiac needs to be in you do not let your cars show up on the Enterprise lot. The real distressing thing is just under half of the Pontiac cars are going to rental fleets.

Sooner the trucks and cross overs are dumped or moved to GMC the better.

many may not agree with letting Pontiac fill a niche but what they are doing now is not working and if they shadow Chevy they never will make it and only hurt Chevy too. Chevy and Pontiac offerings need to be night and day. The G5 and G6 fail to do this and the GP is a old car needing retirement as they have gotten everything out of it.

The time has come for Pontiac to be a smaller brand with it's own identity and its own cars. If they have to use Holden and other overseas GM brands so be it. This is the real world and Pontiac is never going to please everyone but they need to please more than they are now. If they can offer a good quality product and make a buck doing it, it is time to do it.

Pontiac could do much worse than sell the G8 as we have seen them do for the last 20 years of Sunbirds, Korean Lemans, G body Lemans/Bonnevilles, Sunfires, J6000, T1000, Iron Duke Firebirds, etc. The only FWD GM has that is worth being a Pontiac is already a Saturn.

The G8 is only a first step as the CTS Cadillac was the first step for them. Give them time to walk!

A good slogan for Pontiac is "Real Divers Cars Do not Pull Right".

And don't say they don't As I have owned some of the Best Pontiac FWD and driven the GXP Bonnie and GP. They have controled steering better but they will never get the pull out out They were all good cars but today they need better.

[turbo200]

Well when I 1st saw the 1st production version of what Holden would use to create your car was 1993 in Germany. It was the Opel Omega B. Do you recognise it? Allbeit a 4 door, it is the ancestor of your Holden. I do believe this design was 1st penned in either late 89 or early 90, it was such a long time ago it's hard to remember. I do remember at that time Holden was nothing more than rebadged Toyotas, you know like the Holden Nova & Holden Apollo. Here is the exact list of their models and all their rebadges. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holden_vehicles

1993

Then I see it again reborn as the 1995 Cadillac Catera.

Then again Opel, aka:GM, gives it to Holden to use.

I guess it's an ok car if you like cars that have a dated design and look like fat Chevy Cavaliers, like I've seen this since the early 90's. But to each their own. But to me this car and it's platform is old, they could have at least tried to make it look different on the outside, but alas it was not to be. Enjoy your Holden, I am enjoying my Pontiac.

W-body has been around longer. Your car's platform is just as old, or older. And it's less fun to drive. Why so much car envy? The GTO needs make no apologies for what it is. GTO is a strong car with a beautiful interior, and enough technical refinement to give BMW 5-series and3-series from its generation a run for thier money. Case closed. Gran Prix GXP is the nicest iteration of an overused and overengineered FWD platform that long ago lost its relevance. It was crafted under a regime of old Detroit think where long wheelbases and even longer overhangs created the aura of unmovable solidarity. I bet the GTO is just slightly more fun, and the Gran Prix much more practical. That being said, both are decent looking cars that any owner should be proud to own, but they're no beauty queens.

[Northstar]

Well when I 1st saw the 1st production version of what Holden would use to create your car was 1993 in Germany. It was the Opel Omega B. Do you recognise it? Allbeit a 4 door, it is the ancestor of your Holden. I do believe this design was 1st penned in either late 89 or early 90, it was such a long time ago it's hard to remember. I do remember at that time Holden was nothing more than rebadged Toyotas, you know like the Holden Nova & Holden Apollo. Here is the exact list of their models and all their rebadges. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Holden_vehicles

1993

Then I see it again reborn as the 1995 Cadillac Catera.

Then again Opel, aka:GM, gives it to Holden to use.

I guess it's an ok car if you like cars that have a dated design and look like fat Chevy Cavaliers, like I've seen this since the early 90's. But to each their own. But to me this car and it's platform is old, they could have at least tried to make it look different on the outside, but alas it was not to be. Enjoy your Holden, I am enjoying my Pontiac.

The GTO shares no body panels with the Catera or Omega. Just because it's the same platform does not mean it's the same design. IIRC, the Monaro was a concept at the '97 Sydney Motor Show.

[Oracle of Delphi]

The GTO shares no body panels with the Catera or Omega. Just because it's the same platform does not mean it's the same design. IIRC, the Monaro was a concept at the '97 Sydney Motor Show.

Don't be mad at me because Bob Lutz said it was a failure, however I do agree with him. He didn't say it failed because it shared bodypanels, he said one reason it failed was because the design was dated. To me it had the same look in a general sense, as the Omega and Catera, so in North America's eyes it was old and dated, no matter if it shared bodypanels or not.

[Camino LS6]

The notion that the car was a failure really isn't accurate to begin with.

That it failed to meet GM's estimated sales numbers is true, beyond that failure isn't something you can lay at the GTO's doorstep. The marketing of the car was most certainly mis-handled, and the foot-dragging at GM that prevented any Holdens getting here before '04 was another stupid move. Add in greedy dealers, iffy shipping schedules, the hurry-up job of getting the car ready for the US market, the intro of the new Mustang, the knowledge that a new Camaro and Challenger were coming, gas prices, a fickle press and a fickle public, and the car never got a fair shake.

Even so, it was a profitable car for GM, its owners love it, it set a new standard for GM interiors, it proved that Holdens really can be brought here, gave Pontiac some legitimate and much needed performance credibility, kept quite a few F-body lovers from going to Ford, won a number of racing championships, and made me smile the first time I drove one (and every time since).

Failure?

I think not.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Failure?

I think not.

I'll let you argue that point with Bob Lutz, I don't report up through Bob, I report up through Opel, you know the ones who invented the platform you drive around in when you drive your GTO.

[Camino LS6]

I'll let you argue that point with Bob Lutz, I don't report up through Bob, I report up through Opel, you know the ones who invented the platform you drive around in when you drive your GTO.

Opel may have invented the platform, but Holden perfected it .

[Oracle of Delphi]

Opel may have invented the platform, but Holden perfected it .

Perfection, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[ocnblu]

This is really getting old now.

[Camino LS6]

Perfection, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Not in this case.

Opel had this platform (I can't claim to know how well they did with it)

Caddy re-badged the Opel and produced what is aguably the least dependable Caddy in recent history.

Holden took the same platform, re-engineered it, adapted it to a dizzying array of bodystyles and drivelines, sold the hell out of it around the world, won racing championships as a matter of course(stomping BMW with regularity by the way) , and finally exported one of the finest iterations of the platform to the US as the GTO.

I'd call that perfection.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Not in this case.

Opel had this platform (I can't claim to know how well they did with it)

Caddy re-badged the Opel and produced what is aguably the least dependable Caddy in recent history.

Holden took the same platform, re-engineered it, adapted it to a dizzying array of bodystyles and drivelines, sold the hell out of it around the world, won racing championships as a matter of course(stomping BMW with regularity by the way) , and finally exported one of the finest iterations of the platform to the US as the GTO.

I'd call that perfection.

I'm with Lutz on this one, sorry!

[Camino LS6]

I'm with Lutz on this one, sorry!

I'm not so sure that he's with you. :AH-HA_wink:

[Northstar]

Ha! Lutz loves the GTO. Notice he didn't say there was anything wrong about it as a vehicle (besides the somewhat dated styling), GM just screwed up on how to sell it.

[Oracle of Delphi]

Ha! Lutz loves the GTO. Notice he didn't say there was anything wrong about it as a vehicle (besides the somewhat dated styling), GM just screwed up on how to sell it.

Well then you better hope Lutz sticks around, conventional wisdom says his replacement (whenever that is) is no fan of Holden and Bob is not getting any younger you know.

[Camino LS6]

In that case his replacement needs to be replaced before he leaves. Lutz and Holden are why I still have hope for GM.

[Northstar]

Well then you better hope Lutz sticks around, conventional wisdom says his replacement (whenever that is) is no fan of Holden and Bob is not getting any younger you know.

That's ok, by the time his replacement comes Holden will have successfully fixed Pontiac and GM's RWD problems. I think that will make it rather hard for his replacement to get rid of Holden.

[Oracle of Delphi]

That's ok, by the time his replacement comes Holden will have successfully fixed Pontiac and GM's RWD problems. I think that will make it rather hard for his replacement to get rid of Holden.

Do you now? Well we shall see, it seems this person has some people within GM who think as he does. The Tree Huggers and the U.S. Government are also helping his cause although they don't know it, but in the political battle within GM, they are helping more than they could ever know. Camaro and G8 for now are safe, but anything after that is well, it's not looking good to say the least. I personally think Zeta will fall under it's own weight of 4000 + pounds and CAFE standards, so I'm willing to wait and see what happens. Ask yourself this, what area of the world is not getting Zeta, then ask yourself why?

As for Lutz, time is marching on, better hurry! Tick, tock, tick, tock.

[Cory Wolfe]

This is really getting old now.

Really old. Conversing with PCS is like conversing with someone my age... They think they're right, no matter what.

Anyways, yeah. This is getting old. Obviously we're never going to agree of this subject. We should just leave it at that. Was fun at first, but I feel we're going over the same points again and again.

Edited April 24, 2007 by blackviper8891

[Robert Hall]

Do you now? Well we shall see, it seems this person has some people within GM who think as he does. The Tree Huggers and the U.S. Government are also helping his cause although they don't know it, but in the political battle within GM, they are helping more than they could ever know. Camaro and G8 for now are safe, but anything after that is well, it's not looking good to say the least. I personally think Zeta will fall under it's own weight of 4000 + pounds and CAFE standards, so I'm willing to wait and see what happens. Ask yourself this, what area of the world is not getting Zeta, then ask yourself why?

As for Lutz, time is marching on, better hurry! Tick, tock, tick, tock.

Europe's not getting Zetas, but that's understandable given their high fuel costs...

Zeta at 4000lbs would be lightweight in the US, the land of 6000lb SUVs and trucks and cheap gas...

[zetaman]

Do you now? Well we shall see, it seems this person has some people within GM who think as he does. The Tree Huggers and the U.S. Government are also helping his cause although they don't know it, but in the political battle within GM, they are helping more than they could ever know. Camaro and G8 for now are safe, but anything after that is well, it's not looking good to say the least. I personally think Zeta will fall under it's own weight of 4000 + pounds and CAFE standards, so I'm willing to wait and see what happens. Ask yourself this, what area of the world is not getting Zeta, then ask yourself why?

As for Lutz, time is marching on, better hurry! Tick, tock, tick, tock.

PCS, you posts are beginning to read like children's stories - thin on facts and high on drama... much like the brothers Grimm :AH-HA_wink:

Maybe it's time you drew a line in the sand and step over it...

[hyperv6]

I think your going to find that the program HOLD is just that. Dive train packaging and weight loss is what will be adjusted on the Zeta.

A little less weight and a new DOHC 320 HP V6 with DOD would solve much of any problems on Fuel milage.

Besides the Zeta is not going to be the real high volume car the G6 replacment will be and that same six in a smaller RWD car would be great.

Edited April 24, 2007 by hyperv6

[regfootball]

sort of. how many RWD magnums, 300's, and chargers have E stickers on them?

Edited April 24, 2007 by regfootball

[Oracle of Delphi]

PCS, you posts are beginning to read like children's stories - thin on facts and high on drama... much like the brothers Grimm :AH-HA_wink:

We'll all see soon enough, It's almost 2008 and that Holden G8 will be here, I will be reading it's sales figures as soon as they come out on a monthly basis.

Instead of drawing a line, I prefer to sing - Sing to the music of COPS!

G8, G8, what cha gone a do, what cha gone a do, when they don't come for you? :rotflmao:

Edited April 25, 2007 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Northstar]

We'll all see soon enough, It's almost 2008 and that Holden G8 will be here, I will be reading it's sales figures as soon as they come out on a monthly basis.

Instead of drawing a line, I prefer to sing - Sing to the music of COPS!

G8, G8, what cha gone a do, what cha gone a do, when they don't come for you? :rotflmao:

Let me help you out here...

GP, GP, what cha gone a do, what cha gone a do, when they don't come for you?

GP: I'ma go to the fleets!

Going my mid-2006 figures, the GP had 74% of it's sales to fleet, and only sold 13k to retail customers. Yep, a little more than 2k/retail sales a month. The G8 only needs to sell about 30k cars (none will be to fleet, it's too good for fleets) and you can go eat some crow. Some people might give your GP a good ass-whooping too, if you ever dare try to line up against a G8 GT.

So, who's laughing now?

[Oracle of Delphi]

Let me help you out here...

GP, GP, what cha gone a do, what cha gone a do, when they don't come for you?

GP: I'ma go to the fleets!

Going my mid-2006 figures, the GP had 74% of it's sales to fleet, and only sold 13k to retail customers. Yep, a little more than 2k/retail sales a month. The G8 only needs to sell about 30k cars (none will be to fleet, it's too good for fleets) and you can go eat some crow. Some people might give your GP a good ass-whooping too, if you ever dare try to line up against a G8 GT.

So, who's laughing now?

The G8 can't go to fleets, because they can barely get 30k here, but pehaps they can put all those left over GTOs into fleet since they are still on the dealer lots, or maybe Lutz can have a Fat Chevy Cavalier fire sale. I won't be eating crow, but I know a few who will be. Bon Appétit!

[Northstar]

The G8 can't go to fleets, because they can barely get 30k here, but pehaps they can put all those left over GTOs into fleet since they are still on the dealer lots, or maybe Lutz can have a Fat Chevy Cavalier fire sale. I won't be eating crow, but I know a few who will be. Bon Appétit!

You mean all 2000 of them that are still left on lots? Yep, that's a ton, even by GP standards. The GP only puts 6000+ in to fleets every month, they're so easy to sell to retail customers. They hardly have any they can't sell to retail!

If they could "only" get 30k GPs here (and the lowest estimate I've heard for the G8 is 40k, FYI), they'd still have to fleet some, because they wouldn't sell fast enough

The only thing that will be needing any sort of fire sale is the GP, because they'll move even more slowly when the G8 comes and no one wants to buy a GP anymore because they're all picking the G8.

[Oracle of Delphi]

You mean all 2000 of them that are still left on lots? Yep, that's a ton, even by GP standards. The GP only puts 6000+ in to fleets every month, they're so easy to sell to retail customers. They hardly have any they can't sell to retail!

If they could "only" get 30k GPs here (and the lowest estimate I've heard for the G8 is 40k, FYI), they'd still have to fleet some, because they wouldn't sell fast enough

The only thing that will be needing any sort of fire sale is the GP, because they'll move even more slowly when the G8 comes and no one wants to buy a GP anymore because they're all picking the G8.

40k for the G8, nah the Ute is putting a hurt on that. Again, don't be mad at me because Lutz said the GTO was a failure. Complain to him.

[turbo200]

You mean all 2000 of them that are still left on lots? Yep, that's a ton, even by GP standards. The GP only puts 6000+ in to fleets every month, they're so easy to sell to retail customers. They hardly have any they can't sell to retail!

If they could "only" get 30k GPs here (and the lowest estimate I've heard for the G8 is 40k, FYI), they'd still have to fleet some, because they wouldn't sell fast enough

The only thing that will be needing any sort of fire sale is the GP, because they'll move even more slowly when the G8 comes and no one wants to buy a GP anymore because they're all picking the G8.

Northie--you know how they say some men won't listen to good reason, and its foolish to waste your breath on them? This guy is being called out already---I will be next, his lines are like those of a child and his bitter feud is reminiscent of another grudge-holder--buickman. Nobody cares what he has to say.....people listen to reason and good insight....this guy has shown none so far.

[Northstar]

Northie--you know how they say some men won't listen to good reason, and its foolish to waste your breath on them? This guy is being called out already---I will be next, his lines are like those of a child and his bitter feud is reminiscent of another grudge-holder--buickman. Nobody cares what he has to say.....people listen to reason and good insight....this guy has shown none so far.

I agree with you 100%. Sometimes it's fun (and entertaining) to argue with him because it's so easy to prove him wrong.

[FAPTurbo]

This is becoming a total flame war, and it'll get worse...

Lockage FTW?...